I'm starting to read RaFoaDK(imagine that: in my possession since its publication and I havent red it yet
) and on page 31 paragraphs starting as follow( not sure I'm allowed to copy the whole text here) A mortal men would have died.....until cogealed his blood into a rock-hard scab.(on the next top page)This seem to me that Rajaat already had imbued somesort of metamorphosis process into his chosens when he made them his champions. Or is it merely just an other assumption from Lynn Abbey's lack of information concerning Athasian's great kings??
Sorry for those who dont have the book in question :sad:
An other anathema
On page 34 Borys is said to have rampaged the land right after its total transformation into THE dragon. For its first 100 years Borys sucked(I assume defile is a proper synonym) the land out of everithing.
Does this mean that the cleansing wars is not the major reason why Athas is now a desolated planet(didn't help the cause mind you) but that Borys is to blame for the ocean's total departure. Even Champion's had to know water would be essential for the survival of their subject but not a rampaging pain-blind dragon like borys. I mean why become a god if you have no one to worship(and serve) you??
Is this right? or is it, again, a missinterpretation from Lynn Abbey's few notes from you know who??
>Kalak was not a champion, just a powerful defiler. Um...no, the SKs would have teamed up on him and killed him. Sorceror Kings do not tolerate threats to their power. (To further reflect the this, in my campaign when the PCs killed Tithian, the SKs forced the party leader become their puppet and try to defeat Rikus' powerful faction and restore the status quo. We have yet to see whether they can kill Rikus though.)
>Hamanu is the strongest of the SKs. No, he isn't, Borys of Ebe has always been.
>Hamanu is a wise and just king. Not entirely, he is actually an ironfisted tyrant who may or may not actually beleive he is a god.
If you find any contradictions, the official fluff overrides Lynn Abbey's stuff. Of course, the DM can always choose whatever they want. Sometimes the official fluff clashes with the Darksun feel, and you must correct it.
- how SKs think, or at least one, plus what he could observe about the other SK's personnalities over the ages
- the lives of the Champions during the wars
- more of Rajaat
- some Dregoth stuff
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
I always thought that Rajaat promised his champions with a way to improved oneself(becoming advance beings) but that later Borys was the one who procure them with the spells and the begining of the metamorphosis. [...]
This seem to me that Rajaat already had imbued somesort of metamorphosis process into his chosens when he made them his champions.
This is funny!! I always thought excatly the contrary! It says in the Timeline that it came from Borys, but there's nothing on it in the accessories or novels. See, I read RaFoaDK before I ever read the Timeline. So I was surprised that it said that about Borys!
On page 34 Borys is said to have rampaged the land right after its total transformation into THE dragon. For its first 100 years Borys sucked(I assume defile is a proper synonym) the land out of everithing.
Does this mean that the cleansing wars is not the major reason why Athas is now a desolated planet(didn't help the cause mind you) but that Borys is to blame for the ocean's total departure. Even Champion's had to know water would be essential for the survival of their subject but not a rampaging pain-blind dragon like borys. I mean why become a god if you have no one to worship(and serve) you??
I really prefer the concept of the Dragon defiling so much, destroying every green thing he encounters for a 100 years, than just saying that the Champions were horrible beings who never stopped their war even as the world turned into a desert in front of them. I think, like you will see in Hamanu's accounts, that when the Champions stopped it looked more like the deforested zones of Africa than the Gobi desert. I think Borys is what tipped the balance, the last nail in the land's coffin, so to speak. You can do a lot of damage in a 100 years if you're an insane dragon with no inhibitions or obstacles....
As for the ocean's departure, that is really obscure, in all DS sources out there. But Hamanu dosen't say that the oceans transformed faster after Borys was made into the Dragon, if that's what you're asking.
The Timeline says Borys went mad. We all presume its the Animalistic Rage. Could be, but why is it occuring if Borys become a full dragon? Lynn Abbey takes a shot at it, saying the transformation required energy, like for any dragon metamorphosis, and that Borys at the time didn't get it...the half-completed process turned him insane (or the process was stopped while the transformation progressed through the Animalistic Rage) and it took him a 100 years to scour the land of life to get the energy that the process needed for its completion.
Is this helpful?
Good read!!! :D
and why wouldn't the savanah be in the same condition?
do you think that he left the tyr region or stayed fairly close to home
Would be interesting to try to estabilish a consensus... maybe athas.org (imbued by WTC with official authority) could write a document clarifing the contradictions in DS material... at least giving their "official position" about every contradiction in DS material.
It would be specially useful for newbie DS fans.
Originally posted by kefka
but why would he just defile plants when he could drain everything he came across...
and why wouldn't the savanah be in the same condition?
do you think that he left the tyr region or stayed fairly close to home
1. He did defile creatures as well. He wiped out anything that was opposed to him while he went mad.
2. Because the Crimson Savannah wasn't really known to the SM's, at least that's the feeling I got on it. Plus, Borys is a wingless dragon (in the descriptions from PP, pictures of "The Dragon of Tyr" in the 2E RPG books, and I think in RaFoaDK, if memory serves), and may not have wanted to attempt to climb back up the Jagged Cliffs, or felt that he might get hurt/stuck if he went down there. Plus, I got the impression that when he went mad, he had specifically targetted those he hated and loathed before. without the abiliy of self control, he just wiped them out - he had no reason to go to the Crimson Savannah.
3. I'd say he stayed around the Tablelands. He might have gone north to the Lava Gorge, or south to the Deadlands, but basically stuck around the Tableland region.
thats the beauty of having no official hisory
First, Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, referred to as RFoDK, by Lynn Abbey, is a very interesting book that looks inside the head of a tyrannical ruler and attempts to understand him. At the time the book was written, this was the way TSR was going (think "I, Strad" which came out at around the same time). Even so, TSR was falling down around their heads and few people were talking to Lynn Abbey when she had a question about Dark Sun, so she did what all good writers do and made stuff up. For this reason, while interesting, Rise and Fall should be used as fluff or an idea generator - it shouldn't be considered canon.
I believe it says in more than a few places that the world was starting to tumble down when Rajaat created the champs in the Pristine Tower, turning the sun from yellow to red. The Cleansing Wars didn't help things, with all the defiling magic being tossed around (on both sides). The Dragon, though, was the worst of the lot. The Dragon was insane for more than a little spate of time and was draining the life and land simply because it could. Maybe defiling eased its pain? Who knows, but it's stated in the WC and a few other places that the Dragon was the worst of the scourges and is probably to thank for a lot of Athas' current state (although having a star go from yellow-norm to red-giant couldn't help).
Xlor, of course Borys had wings! For shame!
You stated many contradictions that I tried to solve myself.
To me, it seems strange that for 100 years Borys thrashed the land, but he didn't pass the mountains near him, and the hinterlands and found the savannah.
I think that mainly the reason that he couldn't find the savannah was that it was released in the revised dark sun edition.
I can see why Saragar was safe, as it was protected by three powerful mindbenders, but the savannah should have fallen.
Maybe there was another advanced being there, the emperor of the kreen empire, but none can say (yet).
I think that maybe Borys own madness can be used to explain why he didn't destroy the savannah. as he couldn't think clearly, he went east, beyond the sea of silt, and lurked there, destroying for some of the time, and just lurking in agony of the transformation for other times.
I think that although Borys was very powerful, the sorcerer kings must have found ways, utilizing his madness, to defend their cities.
Originally posted by kefka
yeah xlor... why do you keep saying he's wingless?
Check out "the Dragon of Tyr" picture in the monster compendium that came with the original campaign setting. The dragon has no wings. Of course, I usually regard that as a mistake and assume he has them, as in the above illustration.
Originally posted by kefka
yeah xlor... why do you keep saying he's wingless?
The Dragon of Tyr writeup picture, as well as, IIRC the description of Borys in the PP series also has him described as wingless. Plus, I think that Hamanu in RaFoaDK also stated that he was wingless. It gave me the impression that maybe his "accelerated" development to full Dragon left him underdeveloped in certian areas. The picture shown above I've always assumed was artistic license, and not accurate. I guess I took the opposite view of others on that.
Seriously, I prefer the wings, but honestly you could go with whatever you want to for your campaign. Full-blown Tyrian dragons could fly at maneuverability class A (remember that system?). But there is also ample evidence that each champion was a little different and had their own little twists on the whole dragon-thing. Since they are magical creatures to begin with, there's no reason why their ability of flight couldn't be magical instead of physical.
...I just like the way Brom's Borys looks.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The picture shown above I've always assumed was artistic license, and not accurate. I guess I took the opposite view of others on that.
Yeah, him being wingless didn't give me any qualms. No biggie.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, that's why I have made my rules for "accelerated" dragons with my Dragon prc's, templates and spells.
Don't change it. Its a good NEW idea. Something rare concept-wise in post-TSR DS. <--- (generalized opinion, may not be accurate 100% :D)
Originally posted by kefka
do you think that he left the tyr region or stayed fairly close to home
Lynn used a word that had a lot of unspoken baggage that I really liked: heartlands. When mortals talk of the geography of the known world, they speak of Tablelands and Crimson Savanah and such, while Hamanu spoke of the heartland. It seems to refer to the entirety of settled land at the height of the green age. A term used by everyday people back then, so Manu was brought-up with it. Think of the entire area in Cyrus9a's new expanded map. Compared to the images made by Steven Bell of the whole of Athas, it looks like a circular zone around the Pristine Tower, encompassing the Sunrise Sea.
The Dragon would have defiled that zone, being stopped by powerful forces or organizations here and there, but would not have gone, say, on the other face of the world. Even accounting for the climatic changes wrought by the changing of the sea and the sun, the area outside of the heartlands would be in general better shape.