So here's the question.
What did Tatyana do to warrant such punishment?
Surely Barovia is a punishment for Strahd, not her. And if it is not a real incarnation just a semblance, then why are the dark powers randomly punishing people by making them, through no fault of their own, the focus of Strahds attention?
My conclusion is that the Dark Powers *!!@7*#% ping. [choked voice] are really nice and we should never question them.
Another possibility is that the "reincarnations" aren't *really* that much like Tatyana at all: they're just ordinary girls who happen to vaguely resemble her, but not enough to fool anyone who looks at them with an open mind. In this version, it's actually *Strahd* who convinces himself they're Tatyana's reincarnations, willfully blinding himself to the (fairly obvious) differences in appearance and personality. His "curse" is therefore one of self-deception, not of being taunted ... an even more fitting one than having her return over and over, in some ways, given how Strahd deceived himself from the start, telling himself the original Tatyana could EVER truly care for a man who murdered his brother and her true love.
Note that, although Tatyana is one of the oldest characters in the Ravenloft setting's product history, we know virtually nothing about her personality. Strahd, for all his professions of "love" and his fixation on her physical youth and beauty, barely even KNEW her; they seldom spoke two words to one another, and those only in his brother's presence. He may have hounded her image for centuries, but ask Strahd Von Zarovich what Tatyana's *favorite color* was, and he'd either name the hue of the dress she wears in that portrait in his study, or just go: "Err......"
Originally posted by Grimfondle
What did Tatyana do to warrant such punishment?
Who said life was fair?
Life just isn't fair.
Originally posted by Mortavius
Very simply and well put. I've always felt that way about Ravenloft; the good are punished just as much as the evil. After all, even though the Darklords are brought from other worlds and contained within their own domains, they are given special powers which they then use freely to torment the populace.
Life just isn't fair.
Ah, but there is a difference. The DarkLords are systematically punished and entrapped. The three hags always see themselves and eachother in their true form, The Black Widow always kills who she loves, and so on.
Their punishment is never ending and always in their minds.
For the rest the punishment is incidental. It is an evil backdrop to their lives, not some power-visited misery. Where it is systematic (Falkonvia, G'henna) it is imposed by the darkLord.
Which is why tatyana is different (along with Mordenheims wife) for she is reincarnated (it says so in I6, and the art work showed the original and the copy to be identical). Her torture isnt incidental to the evil acts, it is at the core of Strahds punishment.
So it is systematic and DarkPower inspired. And as such, it is a punishment fit only for DarkLords, not their victims.
One trouble with claiming that all these "Tatyanas" are for real is that you actually find more than one so-called Tatyana appearing *at the same time*, if you examine the products carefully. There's the Anna that Jander Sunstar met in Waterdeep, in the same period that at least one, and possibly two, Tatyana-copies showed up in Barovia. There's that Prime-Plane Barovian queen from the "From The Shadows" module -- a character who wasn't even IN Ravenloft! -- who seems to have lived at the same time that the adventuress from Gazetteer 1 was growing up. While it might be credible that the Dark Powers could arrange for multiple reincarnations of the same individual, or even for *simultaneous* reincarnations, it's hard to believe that they could do so OUTSIDE of the Land of Mists ... particularly not when at least one of them (the Queen) is a high priestess of Andrel: a deity who surely has a say in what happens to the souls of his worshippers on a plane where he's clearly much-revered, and who's got better reasons than most gods to hate the DPs' guts!
Granted, the Dark Powers are certainly malign enough to *want* to use Tatyana's spirit in this fashion. But I'm just not convinced we should credit them with THAT much power, particularly at the beginning of the demiplane's history. They couldn't hold Vecna, a demipower, for long, and I seriously doubt they could hold a soul that Andrel -- probably an Intermediate if not Greater deity -- had valued enough to make a high priestess, either. Indeed, if she'd really *been* Tatyana's reincarnation, Andrel should never have permitted his priestess to marry Material-Barovia's King Barov -- thus, setting the stage for an obvious DP plot -- in the first place.
Re. the painting:
IIRC, in I6 it's said that Tatyana had black hair, but in "Vampire of the Mists" and later novels her hair is auburn. Who says that the portait doesn't *change* when nobody's looking -- changes, that are invisible to Strahd, himself -- to match whatever unlucky girl he happens to be fixated on at the moment...? Half the DMs who've ever run an adventure in Barovia have probably ruled that such-and-such a female PC "just happens" to resemble Tatyana; they can't *all* be right ... unless the DPs are messing with Strahd's head and the painting.
simple enough...
multiverse
why will no one accept this time honored facet of d&d?
go look at your old maps of barovia and mordent
almost exact- except one is on a sea shore and one is in the mountains
2 strahds at the same time.....
2 tatyana's one that was in ravenloft and one being reincarnated on a barovia
multiverse-
there doesnt HAVE to be only one.
Originally posted by daffy72
simple enough...
multiverse
why will no one accept this time honored facet of d&d?
The same reason why most people haven't accepted Star Trek: Enterprise - not all jewelers are created equal, and some facets shouldn't have been cut in the first place.
Anyway, just like the Dark Powers will never (or scratch that, should never - seems when someones desperate for ideas, mysteries that shouldn't be explained are) be explained, the reason for Tatyana's punishment never will either, necessarily. The two are integrally tied together.
Some see the Dark Powers as forces of evil, as malign gods who wish will. As such, it's only appropriate that they'd keep reincarnating Tatyana over and over again, bugger all to her innocence.
Others see them as more neutral beings - punishing the wicked, while practicing tough love with those of a goodly nature. In light of this, Tatyana, having been innocent, likely wouldn't be reincarnated - the painting of her would more likely subtly change and Strahds perceptions of what she originally looked like would be warped. For my part, this is somewhat how I look upon things.
It's also possible Tatyana exists somewhat like a ghost, who ultimately cannot cease reincarnating until her own passions and pains from dying have been resolved. Perhaps she cannot rest until Strahd is dead, perhaps she cannot rest until he is redeemed. Perhaps, subconsciously, the reason she keeps reincarnating is because she wants to - to resolve all the issues Strahd left her with. In this scenario, it's even possible that the Dark Powers are good, if Tatyana keeps reincarnating in part due to her own will.
It's really a matter of how you define the Dark Powers, which leaves it up to DM fiat as to just what's what with Tatyana.
Originally posted by Ylem
Rotipher, have you read Gazetteer 1? There is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that Tara Kolyana is the latest incarnation of Tatyana. And she has so far managed to avoid her fate, simply by moving to Hazlan. She is now in her thirties, which makes her rather older than any of the previous incarnations of Tatyana who have been born in Ravenloft. Strahd is wondering where the latest incarnation of Tatyana is.
Whereas in answer to that, a Gypsy prophecy still doesn't necessarily mean Tatyana's been reincarnated in Tara, so much as Tara may have been the one inevitably Strahd would see as Tatyana. Tying this into the "Whatever Tatyana is is a matter of how you define the Dark Powers, anyway," also keep in mind that the Vistani are arguably nothing more than an extension of the Dark Powers, thus wouldn't contradict their own curse upon Strahd.
Tara does strongly support the idea of an actual reincarnation, but there's still some leeway.
And also a Dm can choose to work the multiverse in if they wish since its there for the same reason everything else is, background structure for your own story and to avoid headaches.
Everyone is seeing Tatyana as the poor innocent. She DID commit suicide if you remember-
many roman catholics will tell ya she deserves to burn in the fires of hell for that, so as with most things in ravenloft- it can be seen much like purgortory-
The darklords and anyone else cursed can eventually overcome it and get out if they really wanted to.
And enterprise is infinatly better then that (word that rhymes with hit)- burger called voyager.
go read their origin legend again and why they always travel
they exist above and beyond the dark powers
if the dark powers and/or ravenloft cease to be the vistani will still be trumping around somewhere
I'm reminded of the Stephen King movie, Storm of the Century. Mike Anderson explains how Job (from the Bible) was tortured by God in a test of faith. And jokingly, Mike says that there is a line that was never written down from the story. Where Job asks God why he has punished him so. And God replies, "There's just something about you that pisses me off."
In the gothic horror genre, not everyone gets off. Not everyone who is innocent and pure escapes the darkness. The princess is not always rescued, and evil does win.
Tatyanna is what you'd call an "acceptable casualty" to maintaining the gothic horror genre. She serves as a continuous example that evil does triumph.
And who's to say that she can't still be rescued from her curse?
Originally posted by Mortavius
Tatyanna is what you'd call an "acceptable casualty" to maintaining the gothic horror genre. She serves as a continuous example that evil does triumph.
And who's to say that she can't still be rescued from her curse?
...Or, hers is an example that Good has to keep trying.
Bad stuff happening to nice people gives heroes something to do. The alternative is much less tragic.
Tatyana's reincarnations might not really be the real Tatyana, since they never remember being her. But the DM could really choose any of the options mentioned here and not contradict anything previously writtten.
innocents do definately get punished in Ravenloft though, but it's been said before they many of them might not be real peaople per say. Many could be phantoms with no real souls.
As for multiple carnations: Time in Ravenloft and the material planes don't progress together...Jander's Tatyana might not have lived at the same time, plus there is some evidence that her soul was elsewhere at the time. Actually "Anna" almost seems to be the original Tatyana! The one who jumped to her death....driven mad by Straud on her wedding night.