1) the nature of magic is to use life to fuel spells since there is no god of magic/weave here on athas. this makes all wizards preservers to start.
2) defiling will allow you to add a metamagic feat of your choice (whether you know the feat or not) without adding to casting time or level increase AND/OR allow you to cast beyond your daily allotment of spells if you've used up your spells/spell points for the day.
3) defiling will give you a taint score (from the unearthed arcana).
4) use the tainted sorcerer PrC for those who want to defile as a "defiler" with slight modification of using the defiling of life instead of blood to cast spells.
i know this seems a bit unbalanced, but that was what i was shooting for because athas is the way it is due to an INCREDIBLE lack of balance.
this is just a rough draft!!!
so what do you think?
Originally posted by rexaroo
i was thinking about treating defiler in this way:
1) the nature of magic is to use life to fuel spells since there is no god of magic/weave here on athas. this makes all wizards preservers to start.
Well, usually when writing thngs for Athas, most people simply don't mention gods, but that's the general idea. However, technically, the difference between preserver and defiler boils down to self-control. A preserver knows when and how to stop before killing all the plants around them, while the Defiler either doesn't know how, or doesn't care to. Saying that all wizards start as Preservers or as Defilers wouldn't really do the system justice - they could start as either/or.
2) defiling will allow you to add a metamagic feat of your choice (whether you know the feat or not) without adding to casting time or level increase AND/OR allow you to cast beyond your daily allotment of spells if you've used up your spells/spell points for the day.
Metamagic on the fly has been brought up and tested so many times on this board and the old one, that it's pretty much been run into the ground, 6 feet under. Let dead ideas lay where they are
Basically, without some significant adjustments to balance metamagic-on-the-fly, it's really, really unbalancing.3) defiling will give you a taint score (from the unearthed arcana).
Something like the Defiling score in Dragon (or was it Dungeon) #315? I had thought about it myself, using the Taint system from UA. The problem is that it's really not all that much of a balancing factor, when it's all said and done.
4) use the tainted sorcerer PrC for those who want to defile as a "defiler" with slight modification of using the defiling of life instead of blood to cast spells.
The class would also need to be revised to become "Tainted Wizards" not "Tainted Sorcerers", since Defilers are Wizards, and Wizards are the only (officially) Arcane spellcasters for Dark Sun. You *can* add sorcerers, and I've considered it myself, but technically the Campaign Setting has Wizards only.
i know this seems a bit unbalanced, but that was what i was shooting for because athas is the way it is due to an INCREDIBLE lack of balance.
Using game system imbalance to explain the campaign setting seems.... a little weak. I understand what you are saying, however it's just kind of a backwards way of looking at it. The majority of the vast deserts in the Tablelands are most directly the result of a single individual (Borys, The Dragon) and his rampage for a century. Not to say that there wasn't already expanding deserts before that, he just accelerated the timeline of destruction a bit.
this is just a rough draft!!!
so what do you think?
Interesting ideas, however you are trying to revive something that's been buried for a while. The current Defiler/Preserver system for DS3 works, and will most likelybe even more impressive when the official Prestige Classes start to appear. If it works for you, go ahead, but I don't see myself switching to that system any time soon, simply because then every player of mine would become a Defiler, since they become nearly unstoppable with this writeup.
Preserver=Sorcerer
Defiler=Wizard
Consider that sorcerers draw magic from themselves in a natural way, and wizards have to learn magic, by taking bits and pieces of material that fuel a spell. You could say that the spell componants used to fuel wizardly magic is simply the environment itself, which causes defiling damage. Sorcerers, by living in the environment, consuming its resources naturally through eating, drinking, and breathing, cause no damage, preserving the environment. IIRC, it was Rajatt's development of magic that started the whole mess, right? Or am I just out in left field?
Originally posted by DarthCestual
What about the possibility of approaching it this way:
Preserver=Sorcerer
Defiler=Wizard
Consider that sorcerers draw magic from themselves in a natural way, and wizards have to learn magic, by taking bits and pieces of material that fuel a spell. You could say that the spell componants used to fuel wizardly magic is simply the environment itself, which causes defiling damage. Sorcerers, by living in the environment, consuming its resources naturally through eating, drinking, and breathing, cause no damage, preserving the environment. IIRC, it was Rajatt's development of magic that started the whole mess, right? Or am I just out in left field?
Interesting, but I have to agree with Mach on this one. The only real difference between reserving and defiling is self-control. The desire to not kill the plant life around you and the ability to accomplish this task is what separates them. Defilers either don't know how, or don't care how to preserve. both use spellbooks (if they could be really considered spellbooks on Athas), both memorize their spells, both use plant life-energy to fuel their spells. Rajaat devloped both Preserving and Defiling, teaching the former openly, while teaching the latter more secretive.
Defilers should be stronger than preservers, balance be damned!
Perhaps we could look at the spell accumulation rates and percentages to learn new spells, and give defilers an edge this way. For example, in 2e, there were penalties for wizards trying to learn oppposing 'paths' spells (dexter, sinister, concurrence of the top of my head?) maybe we introduce something like this:
Wizards who are preservers learn 2 spells per level and may learn spells from a preserver spell book / scroll at the normal chance as per PHB. Preservers trying to learn from a Defilers spell book face a 25% penalty on thier chance to learn and convert the spell into thier own spell book, and 35% penalty for shadow mages and necromancers spell books.
Wizards who are defilers learn 3 spell per level and may learn spell from a Defiler spell book / scroll at the normal chance as per PHB. Defilers trying to learn from Preservers spell book face a 10% penalty on thier chance to learn and convert the spell into thier own spell book, and a 15% penalty for shadow mages and necromancers spell books.
Thoughts?
:P
Originally posted by DarthCestual
What about the possibility of approaching it this way:
Preserver=Sorcerer
Defiler=Wizard
Consider that sorcerers draw magic from themselves in a natural way, and wizards have to learn magic, by taking bits and pieces of material that fuel a spell. You could say that the spell componants used to fuel wizardly magic is simply the environment itself, which causes defiling damage. Sorcerers, by living in the environment, consuming its resources naturally through eating, drinking, and breathing, cause no damage, preserving the environment. IIRC, it was Rajatt's development of magic that started the whole mess, right? Or am I just out in left field?
this is a neat idea. i'd actually thought of it the other way around, with the wizard=preserver and sorcerer=defiler.
i looked at it as the "natural" way magic works on athas is defiling. on athas psionics came first then rajatt discovered magic in secert, presumably because there was something wrong with it (defiling) and then when he figured out how to control it preserving was born.
[i] Also remember, they are loners by nature... [/b]
this is why i like the taint idea from the UA. what better way to set them apart then with paranoia or bone twisting deformities or becoming undead when you aquire too much taint.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Yeah i know... metamagic is dead, i agree, but i think there are other things that can be done to give a defiler the edge. ...
instead of metamagic how DOES it sound to make the defiler the sorcerer class. the trick being that they dont need material components. and as for preservers: they can tap into their own brand of defiling and defile if they need to work their wizard magic w/o materials?
and i still like the idea of being able to defile if you need to cast more spells per day than you're allowed.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
To say that one day a wizard needs no spellbooks while the following day he does need them, then later he doesn't again (preserver turns to defiler then turns back again).
The Dragonlance Campaign Setting has a sidebar on "changing focus", which allows one for a spellcaster to go from a wizard or cleric in the 4th age to a sorcerer or mystic in the 5th age. After the War of Souls, a sorcerer can become a wizard and a mystic can become a cleric. This is called an "epiphany".
I sort of like the idea that sorcerers=defilers and wizards=preservers. The basic idea behind defilers is that they advanced quicker and got more powerful faster. With 3rd editions single class chart and focus on game balance, this obviously isn't the case anymore.
The sorcerer in my mind would be one who doesn't draw energy from himself, but from the world. His spell selection is limited, but he gets more spells per day than a wizard, which in turn makes him more powerful.
The wizard, then, must constantly study and prepare his spells - the price he has to make in order to not defile. He doesn't get to cast as many spells per day, and therefore is not as powerful.
Then again, one could look at it from the opposite point of view. Wizards could be defilers, as they have access to all spells, gain bonus metamagic feats, and can specialize in a school. Sorcerers, then, could be preservers, as they draw energy from themselves rather than from the world around them.
Either lookout has its benefits and drawbacks. More than likely, the defiler system in Dragon recently will be the system used in the upcoming Dark Sun conversion in Dragon and Dungeon/Polyhedron.
Sorcerers could automatically gain the ability to prepare a spell from a spellbook like a wizard, Memorizing any number of spells up to the number of spells they get per level + any bonus spells. Give it to them like a Wizard gets Scribe Scroll.
They could then cast any of these spells they have memorized as a wizard or they could spontanously cast thier Sorcerer spells (up to thier limit of course) much like a cleric can change any spell to a heal spell of the appropriate level.
I also like the idea of defiling the land instead of using spell components. However I think I'd just let them add to thier area of defilement to cast spells without components. I think it would be to easy to pass oneself off as a Preserver if all they had to do was use components and components are a big way of catching any spellcaster.
However, I'm going to agree with Kamelion. this is most definitely a dead kank, drug up to get beated again. Let dead kanks die. There are so many other things in Dark Sun to figure out without having to talk of redesigning defilers & preservers again. The current system as presented by Athas.org works. Let's move on to other things. How about taking a town that hasn't been fleshed out, and filling it in, giving some detail to it? I don't mean the big city-states, I mean things like Kled (which is described in novels), or Notrth & South Leopoludis (sp?)....unless those are bad examples and already defined. If so, find one which hasn't been and have at it!
I also think that using wizards and sorcerers this way ignores what is really interesting about spellcasting on athas... the fact that for preservers, taking a little extra energy is a constant temptation. Defiling is raw power paid for with your character's scruples.
So what about game balance? One way that it can be balanced (some would say that it shouldnt be) is that defiling leaves an undeniable mark on the character's soul... one that is hard to remove, if at all. in 2nd edition, this was represented by a penalty to charisma (one reason why sorcerers aren't a very appropriate choice for representing defilers). In 3rd edition, it could be expanded to stronger consequences, but ones that arent so severe that defiling is no longer a temptation. The possiblility that no consequences will be gained would make it even better. (i.e. a saving throw)
NUMBERS AND GAME MECHANICS DO NOT TELL STORIES, DMs DO!
If you or your players are having issues with this, try an experiment. Convert the DS rules into an entirely foreign rule system (Earthdawn's adpet system, Alternity's skill based system, Talislanta's archetype system, or even World of Darkness' whatever-you-want-to-call-it system) and then try and run it. If you can't get the flavor and feel across, then you have to work on becoming a better DM. Simple as that.
Anyhow, like I said, if its a must have, go for it. Personally, I'm not 100% satisfied with the current system, but systems aren't 100% important to me anyhow.
Sorry for the rant. I'm feeling much better now.
Carry on with business as usual.
Originally posted by Phoenix_Down
I dont like using classes in the defiler/preserver system. Rules wise, the idea of converting your levels in one class into levels of another is a mostly foreign idea. It's been done with paladins and blackguards, but it would be rather clumsy when it comes to wizards and sorcerers, since it plays around with the character's spell lists.
It's been done with wizards and sorcerers in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. See the rules on "Changing Focus" on page 97 of that book.
The spell list would be a drawback, yes, but a person could use a number of spells between classes.
So what about game balance? One way that it can be balanced (some would say that it shouldnt be) is that defiling leaves an undeniable mark on the character's soul... one that is hard to remove, if at all. in 2nd edition, this was represented by a penalty to charisma (one reason why sorcerers aren't a very appropriate choice for representing defilers).
Sounds like the taint rules recently seen in Dragon.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It's been done with wizards and sorcerers in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. See the rules on "Changing Focus" on page 97 of that book.
The spell list would be a drawback, yes, but a person could use a number of spells between classes.
The biggest drawback, when attempting to help formulate such a thing for the DS3 system, is that those rules are *not* OGL.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The biggest drawback, when attempting to help formulate such a thing for the DS3 system, is that those rules are *not* OGL.
Ah, but swapping levels is already well-established in d20. You would have to modify the Dragonlance-specific rules anyway to fit the flavor of Dark Sun.
I'm not talking about re-writing DS3, which is already written (and well-written too, I might add). I'm just giving an option for use in peoples' home games if they so desire to use sorcerers and wizards as defilers and preservers, and citing a source as precedent.
Sounds like the taint rules recently seen in Dragon.
The ones in UA, while not DS specific, are a little better. Much more insideous and gruesome ;)
What's the genral outline?