Mind Flayers, as with beholders and half a dozen other creatures, represent what we don't want for Athas. But its not inherent in their design, but in what other Campaign Settings did with them: illithids in space, illithids wanting to block the sun, illithids being one step removed from drows and the underdark in everyone's mind (thanks to FR); the list of anathemas goes on.
But the same could be said about elves and dwarves during the design stage of DS. Yet they made it as inherent parts of Athas. The same can be done with this overly generic-D&D race.
3 elements:
1- Consider Cyrus9a's new expanded map. Unlike Yuan-ti, illithids should not be just over the next sand dune, plotting to kill the other races. They should be far away, yet have a reason to come here, and we a reason to go visist them. I'd imagine them in the eastern regions of that map, over the sea of silt.
2- Mind Flayers should not be plotting to destroy the sun and create a cosmic empire, bhla, bhla...more than fine aspirations for generic-D&D, but off-key for DS. Just like elves don't live in forests and dwarves live above ground and don't work stone, illithids should live differently from their other Campaign Setting counterparts, and have different aspirations. And they have to be natives of Athas. Just like elves were not dumped by the elven pantheon on Athas.
3- Finaly, consider the illithid article in Dragon Mag#308, and the fascinating image of an illithid it contains, definitly not generic-D&Desque... (if someone could allow me to upload a scanned .jpg of it, you'd see its very cool). The article describes Carapace Symbionts, a new kind of illithid symbiont.
Pot-pourri (meltingpot):
Illithids are a Rebirth race. Something has to explain how they survived to this day the predations of terrified Rebirth races and an eventual Illithid Champion. So, very early they have to carve out a piece of land for themselves and be powerful enough as a nation to stop the other races from wiping them out. No such piece of land is known today (of course the real reason is that the designers didn't include them in the Setting), so it as to be far away. Pick your destination: north, east, south. Plenty.
The Rebirth races attained high levels of civilization from the get-go (helped by repenting halflings and, pyreens?, why not...) and so too would the Illithids with their high intelligence.
They go along their merry way in their lands, undisturbed, until a Champion comes along. Since we want the Illithids to be alive in our times they have to survive, so the Champion was killed by them or died in the battle with Rajaat.
Making the context around illithids be the same as that for elves or dwarves would be borring, so we make it extraordinary, as for the halflings of the Jagged Cliffs, or the kreens of the Kreen Empire. They respectively have their lifeshapes and organo-crystalline constructions (plus the ability to modify themselves, thanks to the Zik-Chil) and so illithids could have the Mind Flayer symbionts described in Fiend Folio (right accessory?) plus the ones from the Dragon Mag article.
Now where would those come from? The halfling's lifeshaping is surviving and denatured lore from the Blue Age, the Kreen Empire's abilities come from farming giant insects capable of secreting stuff and from the Zik-Chil (themselves Nature-Benders from the Blue Age, in all accounts) and so the illithid's lore on symbionts could come from the Blue Age. Only logical.
How? They like the dark, so they would excavate underground and live aboveground at night, and so could have come across a Nature-Bender retreat from the war, holding some limited but relevent lore on lifeshapes which illithids, with their great intellects but limited knowledge, adapted into symbionts (about equal strenght to those of the Jagged Cliffs, for balance, but covering different areas of expertise, including psionics since the Nature-Benders were psionic-using renegade Nature-Masters, among other things).
So now they have this special knowledge which worms its way into their society and very being, defining them as a race (elves run, dwarves focus, illithids create symbioses) and making them unique to DS.
They live underground in their self-made underdark, carved out during the Green Age with high psionics from a time of plenty. They have developped as a psionic race, developping special quirks.
Here enters the D&D mind flayer concepts we know of: elder brain and others, plus the new stuff from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, like the Synad PC race (Dragon Mag#314) that has potent psionic tendencies, more than appropriate for adapting to an athasian illithid, such as naturally psionic and being part of an overmind yet staying individuals.
Something similar can be done to illithids. Along the way they use the symbionts more and more, perhaps developping a new way of reproducing through a symbiont invention of theirs (elder brain) that also contains their collective knowledge. Perhaps its then they incorporate permanently a symbiont in themselves that allows them to rip people's brains out (or they can have that ability from since they appeared as one of the Rebirth races, explaining the fear from the other races and the subsequent geographic isolation of illithids). The D&D concepts can be adapted for DS easilly and originally.
Meeting the illithids in modern times in their homes would be in hive-like chambers and passageways alien in design, with organic-looking stone walls, people walking around with organic chitinous stuff on them, making it difficult to see what's underneet, answering most problems with psionics (or also with hard labor from their slave population/food source they keep around as thralls, if their society is to be as similar to other D&D Settings).
Gameplay:
In 3E everyone can become psions or wizards. Some races have in their fluff text indications they seldom meddle with a specific class, like dwarves with arcane magic. The same with illithids: they disdain magic, prefering the purity of psionics. Only fair, we can't have them running around becoming too powerful in their small corner of the world. It also sharpens their racial identity, making it more bent toward one class, which gives them personnality as a PC race. They also develop symbionts to augment their psionic abilities, etc.
More stuff later ;)
Edit: spelling
second: To make it short, I'm a 100% on your side when you say that Mind Flayers have a rightfull place on Athas. (strange how a ElderBrainPoolOf Tadpols could easyly resemble a Master-bender experiment: one of those which were not ment to be by Rhulisti ethic law) Hint! Hint!
I also agree with you that the Illithids of Athas should... well ... be different.( Athilids of the Kano swamp, Sand diggers of Mach's masterfull mind) from the standard D&D monster of the same name if just for the feel of it.
As for the Illithid champion, I did mention one(of my own creation) who was dedicated to the task and although I wouldn't make him one the rebels(alongs Borys) but I could well imagine a fate not solved even to this day.
The Illithids found a way to get rid of their suppressor andbeing a race of opportunity they made *one throw, 2 kill*....
( Athasian tadpol infests the said champion with the aid of psionic of epic level and a symbiot artifact = Unique Champion Illithid with clever plans for the futur.)
All in all, I like what you wrote about the symbiots and their way of life. That's what inspired me the above.
Illithids are coming. That's for sure.
EDIT: Oh and for the Illithid proper, in the Savage Species on page 186 you'll find the race from level 1 to 15 (yes with this book you could' for example' be an Illithid 5th level/psion 5: a 5th level illithid is not a full grown *adult* but it's getting there
)Take that for a start and twick it for an more sutable Athasian feel"
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I partially agree. While I think that the thematic nature should hold true to any new aspects that are created (harsh survivalism, oppression, cheapness of life, brutality, tragedy, fatalism, etc), I highly doubt that there's anything that can't be 'modified' to fit Athas. Had the original release not included elves, then later someone said 'Hey, I've got this great idea for including elves in DS!" I would likely be the first one to shout "Heck NO!". But the elves of Athas fit the general themes occuring throughout the setting. Its not new things that are introduced that make my eyes roll, its new things that don't fit the tone.
As for illithids, I think, with a little tailoring, they would make a wonderful addition to any campaign. Depending on the personality and culture of Jihun's alithids, they may very add some variety of fluff to an otherwise unknown region (i.e. the Kano Swamp). Granted, I would personally still like to see the illithids still around (I had an idea brewing about a less intelligent mind flayer that burrowed in the sands with long tentacles that they used to entangle prey walking overhead; they had gone a little more primal and savage from the centuries of feasting on animal brains).
This comment of Mach covers pretty much the feelings from your thread Jihun-Nish. And I agree with him and what you said. Something can be made with the illithids. Of all the races that have been proposed to be retroactively added to the Setting, mind flayers are the ones who got the most support and good, constructive comments, from respected people on this Board.
I'm just glad I'm part of the game!
(A few days ago I hated the idea, but I've had a change of heart seeing the illithid image in Dragon Mag. A picture is worth a thousand words indeed...)
Here's another take that's been smoldering in my brain (I still want a more savage and primal illithid). Unlike some races, perhaps the illithids were not a rebirth race. Perhaps they are much more recent. One can easily link standard illithids with their elder brains to DS's rhulisti mega brain experiment (Psionic artifacts of Athas book, I forget the real name of it now). Unlike standard illithids, there is only a single elder brain, a rhulisti creation that has either A: been driven mad over time, B: is still carrying on some obscure tasks set for it by its creators (the rhulisti), or C: is (or even was at the time of its creation) a total deviation from what the rhulisti originally intended. Onward. The elder brain, whom I shall refer to as Bob henceforth, is acting acording to one of the picks above by actually creating the illithds themselves either by ceremophosis (described in the 2E book The Illithiad as a larva/tadpole illithid entering a demi-human's brain, feasting on the grey matter and eventually mutating the humanoid into an illithid), through some other nifty but as of yet unthought of rhulisti lifeshaped creation (strange vats of weird chemicals), or simply as an extension of itself in its own twisted way (tadpole/young illithids simply grow up into adult illithids). Most of the illithids, while potent in the ways of psionics, are not very adapt at the finer points of sentient thought. Some though are born capable of higher rational thought and are generally the leaders amongst the other illithids. The illithid society is still very primitive since the number of smarter illithids (noble illithids, if you will) are still few in number and must tread carefully amongst their more savage brethren who out-number them. Over the course of time, as new illithid nibles are born (or as Bob learns how better to birth/create noble illithids), their society will advance one day into what is common of illithids in other worlds.
This idea lends itself to quite a few layers of 'secrets' for the PCs to delve into. Canny PCs expecting to come across the usual tactics of illithids might be in for a surprise by the savage fury of the more common illithids. Later on, they might come across a noble and be in for a surpise by its superiority and more tactical nature of the common illithids it rules. Relying on 'outside' knowledge of illithids would throw them for a few party generated red herrings as they search out the typicaly numerous elder brains, only to come across Bob, The Elder Brain. The link between Bob and the rhulisti would also be a nice surprise since it intentionally deviates from the Rebirth race and Champion idea (no offense, its still a heck of a post Pen).
They describe insect-like hives of sentient beings in a very special and unique way. I see the illithids like that but with more individuality.
They're not drones whose hivemind is sentient, they're sentient beings whose overmind is greater than themselves. But nothing like a god, its just makes their society efficient and ordered, like a program running in the background that makes them do actions that support the whole, like unconscious commands, increasing the chances of survival of the species and freeing the individual's time for higher activities, like research and contemplation, since everyone pulls their weight (also there are no ranks of rich people and an underclass, but only organic differences, like between an illithid and an elder brain).
I will try to impart an image I have in my head of the Illithid diaporama. What it feels like to be in one of their cities:
Think of how it would feel to step into one of the ancient subteranean psionic highways of the Green Age. You cross a gigantic arch of shaped stone to walk on a concrete floor angled to go underground. The opening is like a gigantic gaping mouth, the size of a building, from which air is rythmically sucked in or expelled from the platforms moving at high speed whithin. Once inside, the walls have their own light, low but suffusing the chamber, and by gazing far you see the walls and ceiling lose themselves in the distance, seemingly going over the horizon.
The awe upon entering such a place, for a modern day athasian, would be a near-religious experience. The same with an illithid city.
Imagine coming upon one of their cities. You see tall spires sprouting fromthe ground, going high into the air, bringing and expelling air from the underground habitat, psionically moved by the elder brains. The cities are constructed underground with easy surface access for night forrays, and situated on water sources and are as big as the water supply permits. Their are layers upon layers of rooms, not unlike a real-world underground mega-parking. The walls are psionically digged and shaped, the circular passages and rooms treated by symbionts that secrete substances to make the underground environment more suited to illithid physiology.
A kind of luminous fungus grows on the walls that gives out an eerie diffuse light.
Individuals move about in all directions (many sideways and upside down, using Spider Climb), supervising slaves and works, while others whom their task are completed are busy at their real jobs, advancing in the arts of psionics or practicing fighting or crafting or whatever.
One of their ancient cities that survived more or less unscathed from the ravages of the Cleansing Wars, dating from the height of the Green Age, is as grandiose as the subteranean psionic highways of the other Rebirth races. It is a vast thing, where tens of thousands of illithids live and breed, in chambers shaped by powers whose potency can't be achieve anymore (i.e. epic psionics).
They have the same pressures that humans do, meaning they can overbreed, or they can have war or civil unrest. They are not mindless or insect-like. But they have something akin to a strong devotion to family, coming from lifelong indoctrination and elder brain reinforcement. It has kept their society together and strong, compared to other Rebirth races whose individuals live in isolation from each other, weakening the race. The communal phenomena is not biological but psionic. Basically in the first centuries of the Green Age, illithids learned to use the natural link that forms between close members of their race, like the overmind of the Synad from the Expanded Psionic Handbook. The actual result is thousands of years of building on that phenomena, plus the discovery of the symbiont's lore and creation of elder brains, and perhaps other things unique to DS illithids....
Illithids, although they prefer to be in groups, the larger the better, are fully capable of living alone, just like thri-kreen can do without packmates. Being in group is a social thing, plus it fits in their sence of efficiency (a sense that is a social abstract, like law, but also tangibly real, generated by the elder brains and passed on through the collective unconscious), which they know frees a maximum of time for everyone, giving them a chance to better the race through research, developpment, construction, etc. (the idea is that if everyone pulled their own weight, we'd all go further in life).
In times of conflict within or without, they don Carapace Symbionts (Dragon Mag) that boost their abilities.
Think of a Jagged Cliffs halfling in full battle gear.
Other stuff later.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I've been kicking around the working of illithids into Athas for a long time now, thanks for reviving some interest in it (only so I can steal all your wonderful ideas).
Ho but do steal my friend :P
You know...my smilies are not animated, so ''I'm not responsible for my smilies being off-key''
They're not drones whose hivemind is sentient, they're sentient beings whose overmind is greater than themselves. But nothing like a god, its just makes their society efficient and ordered, like a program running in the background that makes them do actions that support the whole, like unconscious commands, increasing the chances of survival of the species and freeing the individual's time for higher activities, like research and contemplation, since everyone pulls their weight (also there are no ranks of rich people and an underclass, but only organic differences, like between an illithid and an elder brain).
I like it :D
However..
The "Athasian Udnerdark" doesn't seem to exist, or at least isn't touched on. Perhaps it simply doens't exist as per most other settings but its *DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL DMs*.
Illithids I think make for perfect monsters of legend who had some effects on Athas. Since the Githyankiare in officael supplements investigated Athas,, and the Gith seem to be their descendants...so a campign specific forms of Mind Flayer would rock.
perhaps the Sorceror Kings are NOT human (oid) at all, perhaps they are actually Mind Flayers who need vast quantities of psionic power, emotions etc, to stay alive. Psionic Liches with the arenas acting as amplifiers and energy collectors? Maybe THEY cut Athas off from the other planes to keep the *Githyanki and githzerai Out*!
(ooc: note to self: don't post when tired! :>)
Illithids were actually the only other race on Athas with the halflings during the Blue Age. They were an aquatic version, with their cities in the deepest, darkest areas of the ocean floors and connected to the relatively small Athasian Underdark. Then something happened to the water, the Brown Tide made them sick and they retreated deeper into the Underdark, and in order to survive, they sealed themselves in. They had a plan of entering into a state of suspended animation to try and wait out whatever was killing their ocean. Under the care of an Elder Brain and a crack team Symbiot Commandos,(at this point, I'd suggest using the bio-weapons of the Yuzhon-Vong from Star Wars, as I think the stuff from the Dragon article was weak, IMHO) who psionically began monitoring the development of the surface into the desert world of the present. In the time between, the Brain was able to psionically "evolve" it's people to survive in harsher, more arid environments. The decendants of the Symbiot Commandos have prepared the way by being the "guinea pigs" for many of the Brains' experiments and by constucting a network of connecting tunnels and caverns throughout the Underdark to various points on Athas. Silent recon excursions have revealed the one truth of Athas, it's one resource- psionic minds. And for a race that devours brains, psionic minds are like a super food. The Elder Brain believes that if they can devour enough psionic brains, they can boost the psi powers of their people enough to be able to return Athas to the watery Blue Age of the past, and the vast Silt Seas can once again be deep, dark oceans and their people can return to normal. The time to awaken their illithid brethren is at hand, let the feast begin. :88E:
The choice of the symbionts in Dragon Mag is based on the fluff text written for them. Its close enough for Athas and reminds one of lifeshapes (they are more appropriate than Fiend Folio symbionts, which are more geared toward adventuring).
Its a good thing the symbionts are not that strong: they can be better integrated in illithid society and can replace psionic items for many occasions. Any way of going around 'magic items' (I use the term broadly) is a good thing IMO. There was a thread on this lately. Yeah, the thread on CRs...
If you add all the bonuses and abilities of a single illithid fully equiped (a rare thing), you come to, say, a +5 amulet, a +2 abiltiy score item and a total of +10 in skills. Not bad for a creature with half a dozen 'magic items' on him. I mean, there are single magic items around that confer all the abilities above, and players want more. Here you can max out on symbionts easily and still obtain only a fraction of what could be achieve with a load of psionic items. Symbionts serve to give the impression that illithids are strong. Like Mach said:
Defilers in my campaign are more powerful in my home game. How? What's the mechanic? Storytelling. They more powerful than preservers simply in the way they are presented, they way they are described, they way they are imagined in the minds of my players when I present them as NPCs.
NUMBERS AND GAME MECHANICS DO NOT TELL STORIES, DMs DO!
The relative weakness of symbionts means that you can give more of them to an illithid, supporting the claims of the DM that they are fierce adversaries, the rest is in the heads of the players that face them ;)
But when the Brown Tide began to kill all life on Athas, the aboleths fled underground, where the Tide could not touch them. There they rested, and eventually grew hateful of the Green Age and its yellow sun. They experimented on Rebirth races that ventured into the UnderAthas, thus creating two slave races: The skum and the illithids. The skum were designed as warriors, and the illithids were designed as advisors and psychic seige engines.
Rajaat brought the aboleths under his command, promising them a return to the Blue Age. In return for their undying loyalty, Rajaat taight the secrets of defiling magic to them, and many aboleth archwizards arose.
In the end, the aboleths were forced by the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings into the deepest regions of UnderAthas, leaving the illithids on their own for the first time in millennia. Still loyal to the aboleths in an abstract sense of the word, the illithids seek to dominate Athas and bring about the return of the Blue Age.
--on my Athas, mind flayers serve Rajaat NB
In the end, the aboleths were forced by the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings into the deepest regions of UnderAthas, leaving the illithids on their own for the first time in millennia. Still loyal to the aboleths in an abstract sense of the word, the illithids seek to dominate Athas and bring about the return of the Blue Age.
Niiiiiiccccccceeeeeeeeee . . . I likes that 'un very much!
Its also where I apparently got my fetish for facial stabbing from . . .
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Its also where I apparently got my fetish for facial stabbing from . . .
Ho, so its a worthwhile all-around family experience then?! :D
'Check it out alright...