Presumably Athas is still in the common multiverse, though as a technically unsupported system you can all but do whatever you'd like. I've kept it in the Great Wheel (albeit almost sequestered away and difficult to get into, and harder to get out of).
Ravenloft is presumably still floating around the Ethereal plane as a wandering and hungry little demiplane of dread.
I don't know if the 3e Ravenloft folks at S&S have said anything one way or the other on this.FR is in its own set of planes, though Sigil (the same as the great wheel cosmology Sigil) still connects there. So it seems to be that while FR has its own unique planes, its still got some tenuous connections to the old cosmology. But no explanation for the change between editions given.
Of course I make all this null by still using the 2e Great Wheel cosmology (altered ever so slightly to make the Shadow plane its own fully fledges pseudoplane, as opposed to just a demiplane in 2e. One of the few 3e cosmology issues I seriously like. Though the signs of that happening were hinted at in 2e as well)
*shrug*
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
I didn't mention Krynn mostly out of habit as in my own games at least I try to avoid using Krynn simply because Weiss and Hickman never wanted it to be integrated into the D&D multiverse.
*shrug*
They might not have wanted it to be, but it was still part of the Multiverse. Flint rests under a tree in one of the Planescape sourcebooks. The whole Dlance, Planescape, FR crossover dealing with Finder. Paladine has a proxy, if I recall right, in one of the Planescape sourcebooks, etc.
I didn't mention Krynn mostly out of habit as in my own games at least I try to avoid using Krynn simply because Weiss and Hickman never wanted it to be integrated into the D&D multiverse.
The same approach always seemed apparent with Dark Sun. Granted, there are inconsistancies within the setting, but it always appeared as if the designers originally intended to keep it completely seperate from other settings.
I guess you could work it in one of several ways. When I'm gaming in Planescape (i.e. characters choose PS races, factions, classes, etc), then all the different settings are combined within the Great Wheel cosmology.
If I'm running Dark Sun though, its 100% cut off from other settings. Same would hold true if I were to run Dragonlance or (uhg) Forgotten Realms. The seperate cosmologies help to enhance the flavor and feel of a particular setting, giving them their own sense of unique presence. I had a DM once who ran Greyhawk within the Great Wheel, but the gods of Oerth were the only gods to exist in the planes (though there were always a few divine beings that had yet to establish themselves on Oerth). It worked out quite well for all involved.
And Dark Sun was always a part of the multiverse, it's just that its connections to the outer planes were unique given the status of the divine (or lack thereof) it had. There's some specific references to Baatezu who get onto Athas and then find themselves largely stuck do to the presence of the Gray and the the Black.
Dregoth the Undead Sorcerer-King of New Guistenal for instance had an artifact that allowed him access to the outer planes and he was well accquainted with them, especially as they contained true deities (that Athas itself lacked).
The multiverse existed for Dark Sun, just the outer planar connection were restricted heavily for natives. The Inner planes were not, and the Planescape Monstrous Compendium III the inner planes appendix has some references to Athas in it.
The multiverse existed for Dark Sun, just the outer planar connection were restricted heavily for natives.
*waves hand*
There are no plot holes . . . move along, move along.
As I said, it seemed as if innitially there was not meant to be any such connections in DS to the rest of the multi-verse. It wasn't until a little later in the product line that it starts to go against the innitial set-up. Continuity errors. There's others (like the black spine adventure featuring a juant to the astral to take on a horde of githyanki), enought that late products had to go back and fill in the plot holes that had cropped up.
As an aside, the inner planes for Athas are very different than the inner planes for the standard cosmology. Not only are there different ones (Silt, Magma, Rain, and Sun), but they're much more traveler friendly (i.e. no special spells needed to breath in the plane of water or silt, or fly in the plane of air; magma is mostly normal earthy place with a lot of magma rivers, pools, and lakes, etc). Also, Athas has a plane called the Black, which very much resembles the plane of Shadow, but at the same time its not just a renamed plane. There are quite a few differences between the two to make the Black a unique plane. Of course, if your running planescape and incorporating Athas into the milieu, you can easily substitue the standard elemental planes and plane of shadow for the Athasian elemental planes and the Black.
And Dark Sun was always a part of the multiverse, it's just that its connections to the outer planes were unique given the status of the divine (or lack thereof) it had. There's some specific references to Baatezu who get onto Athas and then find themselves largely stuck do to the presence of the Gray and the the Black.
According to Defilers and Preservers, the Black is stated to be "very similar to the Plane of Shadow" and to "connect all that is is from all that is not." In 3E and 3.5E, is it not reasonable to assume that is in fact identical with the Plane of Shadow, and that "connecting all that is with all that is not" means that it connects the Athasian cosmology with other cosmologies? In any case, the conception of the planes in Dark Sun was always radically different from in other settings; the elemental planes were described differently, and the Para-elemental planes were different (Sun, Silt and Rain instead of Smoke, Ooze and Ice). I agree that a Planescape campaign should have its own cosmology, retaining the interconnectedness of the different mythoi.
And speaking of these rare magical artifacts, Dregoth had a planar gate, and it was implied heavily in that module (which was one of the earlier releases) that he traveled heavily in his attempts to become a god (or some such)..
Forgive me for straying off topic, but mention of this reminded me. . . My buddy ran us through that module, though with heavy expansion and modification.. . . Was an awesome game, spanned almost 3 years (started with 2nd edition, then modified when the conversion guide came out, then converted again when 3.0 came out, then updated yet again when athas.org put up their info) .. . started off lowly characters, psionically memwiped and sold into slavery, only to have clues of our existence emerge. So we escaped, went to Raam, which was our home town. Found out that we were members of the veiled alliance and had gone to Guistenol and there learned something, which is what led to our predicament. So we went back, trying to get our memories back. We went through the module, through the upper city, discovering the lower city and the various caverns. Found Dregoth with his army of Dray, Along with his Planar Gate that he was using to bring in an army of githyanki and their red dragon mounts, in order to conquer the surface and seek revenge for his undeath.
Ultimate, we defeated Dregoth (so we thought) took over his palace, set the Dray free and claimed New Guistenol as our base of operations (we had a planar gate), But the Githyankyi was still around and we had to solve that, but after a while of using the gate, we summoned something big and nasty from above (the caller in the darkness) and in the fight, the mirror of the gate was damaged. In order to help with the gith problem we needed to repair the planar gate which was damaged. To do that, we had to retrieve the lense from the pristine tower, which Freed Borys to wreak havok on the land. We fixed the gate, set the previous problems straight (after a short time of getting stuck in the 9 hells with the Githyanki), we then learned that Dregoth still lived.. made a deal with Borys "Hey, we freed you from your chains.. we know where one of the ones responsible for locking you away is" etc.. Borys killed Dregoth.. and in thanks granted our Wizard one wish. Which was that she should be able to cast spells free of persecution.. so Borys declared her his new high templar and Raam his city.
a little time passed, Borys was getting out of hand, so we had to contrive to find a way to slay The Dragon. Well, in Dregoths vast libraries from his planes-traveled experiences there was word of a Dragonlance. So we had to seek out this Dragonlance. . . Eventually we killed Borys etc etc. . . Characters were 21st level at this time, and though after a running total of almost 3 years of semi regular play, the game could have still continued, I then moved out of Socal and into Vegas, so the game halted, until such a time that I move back to socal
That was the longest lasting, and one of the best games I had ever played. Been in some long lasting games before, but none that flowed so well as that one.
Anyway, if you read the 2e setting, you will be familiar with the concept of the belief being one of the multiverse pillars so, do as you please... or believe.
The Toril citzen can only BELIEVE in a different cosmology if you want, remember this, it is your game you fill the holes with any crap (or good ideas) you want.
So there are still many connections to Toril to be exploited by canny planewalkers...
I do have to say that the cosmology of FR is pretty cool. It's too bad the setting was tied to the Great Wheel for so long in previous editions. It's kinda hard to drop the mindset of it. UNlike the new Ebberon setting (whose cosmology is VERY interesting).
Originally posted by primemover003
I do have to say that the cosmology of FR is pretty cool.
One FR plane that I think deserves to be adapted into the Planescape cosmology is the Blood Trenches, or whatever it's called - the Blood War battlefield, split off from the gray wastes, that irregularly connects to all the other infernal planes.
I also like how you can travel directly from Mystra's realm to Velsharoon's.
Dark Sun's cosmology was inconsistent even in 2e. The cosmological diagrams in the Dragon Kings hardcover were taken directly from the 1e Manual of the Planes, with no indication that there was any problem traveling to the outer planes or that the inner planes were different than standard. Later on they added the Black and the Gray.
The new Dungeon says the Black is exactly like the Plane of Shadow, but with occasional fonts of negative energy. The Gray is like the Ethereal, but with occasional fonts of positive energy. Both planes include a Deep region that doesn't parallel Athas the way the border regions do.