1) Opinions on why the inconsistencies exist.
2) Whether an inconsistency should be ignored.
3) Information that is guessed on - it's got to be from an official book. That is, a book produced by TSR. Period (although, the timeline that's available all over the internet will be the ONLY exception to this, since it was official, but never printed).
What I am looking for is a simple list of everything you've noticed that doesn't jive from one book to another (or jive within one book, in the case of Dune Traders and few others I could think of). Don't worry, I am going somewhere with this, but in psychology, you always get a baseline before you try for a solution.
Right now, I'm just going to try to get every single line that doesn't jive with the rest of Dark Sun or with another published book. My plan, once we have all of these, is to address them one by one and come up with solid, agreed-upon answers for the DS community at large. Then I'll toss together a doc so we can stop having these posts over and over and over.
So, let's hear it. Remember, just a list of inconsistencies and where they are located: no opinions, yet.
(...er...Dragon, I mean :P)
Was Kalak a champion? WC says yes, RaFoaDK says no.
Borys - Original Champion, or replacement (RaFoaDK says replacement, like Hamanu)
Abalach-Re & Kalak - who's the Ogre-Naught/Ogre-Doom? (RaFoaDK inconsistancy as well).
There are more.... lemme see if I can remember them....
Here's another:
Dune Trader: Lalalai-puy replaced the original Oba.
Simon Hawke: Elves riding kanks.
Dragon Kings vs. Defilers and Preservers vs. stories: how long it takes to become a dragon and what process (or processes) are involved.
It's mentioned in a few books (WC, Thri-kreen of Athas, and Dragon's Crown) and it's never clear whether it's a representative of Korgunard or some random "Great One" that Korgunard happens to resemble. The books are inconsistent on which it is.
I know, that's not what you're looking for, but it is my explanation for how they could remember an ancient avangion while Oronis is the person who discovered/developed the process.... Thousands of years later.
Also, the changing of the sun. Blue->Yellow was dealing with the Brown Tide, but was Yellow->Red the result of Rajaat making his champions or the champions defeating Rajaat and making themselves SK/Qs and Borys the Dragon?
Templar abilities. Is it a function of being a champion of rajaat, a gift from borys, a side-effect of being the first dragons? (if it's the latter, then super old elemental advanced beings may have living vortices too, predating the champions)
dragonhood. part of being a champion, or post-rebellion borys gift, extrapolated from Hamanu the first dragon's transformation? Hamanu's tale has it that all the champions were transforming, but Hamanu was the only one who was actually capable of dragon magic prior to the rebellion (which may imply that hamanu was the pinnacle of rajaat's research into dragon higher beings, and all the other champions may have been inferior copies of the experiment, or maybe rajaat took what dregoth was doing to himself and made a more perfect version he then imposed upon hamanu), therefore the champion metamorphosis was something different from dragonhood.
that's all i got from the top of my head right now.
nik
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Dune Trader: Lalalai-puy replaced the original Oba.
Simon Hawke: Elves riding kanks.
Stuff like that, is simple writter error. Simon Hawke probably missed the section were Elves don't ride beasts of burden.
Inconsistencies seem irrelevant to me. Afterall, what the World of Dark Sun is should really be an agreement between the DM and the players. For instance, must of the people I played Dark Sun with were more interested in becoming powerful, than in details of some long and forgotten war.
What if the Cleansing wars were all lies spread to quell rebellions after Kalak was killed. After all, who recited the past history to the heros? Some spirits claiming to have seen it with their own eyes?
What I'm trying to do is document all the errors. Once we have them, a lot of them will have simple answers, like the one you pointed out. Some won't, like the whole dragon-metamorphisis thing. There will be a LOT of those, I suspect.
Keep 'em coming.
Do you also want to list "crunchy bits" (my favs)? Or is it irrelevant due to D&D 3.5?
Example: Original rulebook stated that certain magic items do not exist in Dark Sun because they are completely against the flair of the setting. But in Dune Trader there is a decanter of endless water and in Dragon's Crown a potion of dragon control.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Dune Trader: Lalalai-puy replaced the original Oba.
Why not? She was the SK of Kalidnay, one of is wierdo research when mad, blew up the city and she got to Gulg, assassinated the oba and took is place. Muhahaha!
PROMISE
Ebe's kind of invalid because no book states where it is. Kalidnay's valid because two different (three, maybe?) disagree about its downfall.
Elnarc, crunchy bits are fine, because they contradict themselves. ANYTHING you can find in any official TSR book from ANY setting (Planescape, Ravenloft, etc) is ALL fair game. So long as one portion of it says something about Dark Sun and something in another TSR book says something else.
The Sea of Silt would have blown away. In all deserts, including Mars, there is nothing like the sea of silt. If dust was light enough for people to sink in, it would be light enough to be carried away during the afternoon winds, causing a dust storm that would cover all of Athas for months if not years, similar to sandstorms on Mars.
It could be an inconsistency in the fact that it may have been the changing of the sun, the copious amounts of defiler magic, or the Dragon's "insane" years that destroyed the Athasian environment. Since all three are mentioned in one place or another, this is a valid point.
Discussing the scientific reasoning behind it is moot at this point. It's fantasy, so we might never be able to solve all those problems. Right now, the goal is simply to take the information that was given to us by TSR and make it all mesh. In order to do that, we have to find out where TSR biffed it and put in contradicting information.
what I was always puzzled about are the vortices - I hope it counts as a good idea, but not explained enough.
also there is somewhere written that Abalch-Re was puzzled by her powers so she invented Badna to explain it (I dont remember where I say it).
Eyal - I seem to remember that, too. I think it was in veiled alliance, although I could be wrong. Vortices are perfectly valid because there are at least three different sources all claiming three different ways the SKs grant spells.
Discussing the scientific reasoning behind it is moot at this point.
Oh pooh! You gotta go an ruin all me fun!
Methvezem
Member
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, QC <-------------
Muhahaha, the Quebec champion proceed with the invasion with a new acquisition : Methvezem!
Go to this thread Methvezem! And bump it up for us, Quebecer!
Kalid-ma:
When you ressurect him using the orbs, will he be alive again?
or maybe he sleeps in ravenloft?
or maybe he is a she?
Book of Artifacts:
History behind the Silencer of Bodach names a human defiler warlord by the name of Irikos whose ancient duty was to destroy the race of orcs. Irikos was supposedly called "The Left Hand of Rajaat." This seems to conflict with Ablach-Re being Uyness, Orc Plague.
History behind the Silencer of Bodach names a human defiler warlord by the name of Irikos whose ancient duty was to destroy the race of orcs. Irikos was supposedly called "The Left Hand of Rajaat." This seems to conflict with Ablach-Re being Uyness, Orc Plague.
Nyt did a good little article on his website about the Irikos debacle, trying to fill in the holes by yet again another DS inconsistancy. Its found here. There was a decent thread about it all not too long ago (brief search will turn up more).
You're going to post said list to the boards once you compile it right?
If not, please send me a copy, currently working on my home rules as we speak, among other things, hence my scarcity to the boards.
Wish this thread would have kicked up after I wrote what I did on Irikos, ah well, heh. :P
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
One inconsistencies is that the Halflings used the sun to kill the brown tide. The star did change from blue, to yellow, which means it probably went from B type to K type. The amount of energy to do that would have surely vaporized the brown tide....and about a million Athases for it would have been the same energy output as a supernova, the brightest and hottest explosion ever apart from the big bang. I am being too nit-picky over that. It was just something that I thought of.
The Sea of Silt would have blown away. In all deserts, including Mars, there is nothing like the sea of silt. If dust was light enough for people to sink in, it would be light enough to be carried away during the afternoon winds, causing a dust storm that would cover all of Athas for months if not years, similar to sandstorms on Mars.
Actually, the Halflings used the Pristine Tower, which in turn drew power from the Sun, changing it's color and size. This means that it took the power of a supernova to wipe out the brown tide, which is impressive. However, the side-effects have been enormous. There's the whole rebirth, the draining of the oceans, etc. to consider. Using that much energy in a magical (or quasi-magical) effect caused significant troubles on Athas. The difference was that the Supernova effect didn't wipe out the star system in the process. The Pristine Tower took all the energy itself.
Keeping with my own rules (I don't want to have to kick myself in the junk), I'll add in an inconsistency here:
The whole "Crossing the threshhold"-thing. In a few places, it is stated that it's nearly impossible to get to the outer planes, supported by the fact that there are no gods on Athas. Even so, there is a great deal of evidence for this to have happened. Athasian elves are mentioned in Planescape's Book of Chaos, Zik-chil are remarkably similar to the Spelljammer Xic-chil, and so on. So what gives? Can you travel to the planes or not?
Then 3e came along...heh
Are there Local languages in Dark Sun, and if so, how far spread is the Common tongue? Most documents seem to assume everybody speaks the common tongue, other materail refer to it as a trade tongue only, and the all material shows City-states (especially Draj and Gulg) having very different names for people and things.
Something which kind of is a contradiction:
Can dwarves and muls have body hair? Certain artwork seems to suggest that some do.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Brax had a very interesting view on that and I'll include it when we get down to this one.
Teaser
The events descibed in the timeline of Athas seem like global events, however, it is pretty clear that the region which they cover if quite small. So:
Did the rebirth only really occur in the Tyr Region?
How far have the humanoid races spread?
How far did the cleansing wars spread?
What do the Inixes look like? A long scaled lizard or a long plated lizard?
What do the Kanks look like? A chitinous ant-like insectoid or a black chitinous spider-like insectoid?
I seem to be submitting just "minor stuff", the so-called big questions about Borys (and the quality of Denning's novels
) I leave to others.8th World's Age (-14,014)
The new races of The Rebirth - humans, gnomes, dwarves, elves, and others - appear across the face of Athas. Great cities such as Tyr, Bodach, and Guistenal[sic] are founded to house the new races.
I’ve been toying with the idea halflings must have taught the Rebirth races, that how else do you get races that have just come into existence to have a moderate level of civilization basically overnight?
9th King's Age (-13,937)
First reported sighting of the Messenger by a Tyrian astronomer.
About 35 years have passed between halflings walking away from the Pristine Tower and transforming themselves into elves, humans…and a Tyrian having a high enough level of education to make a celestial observation.
Incidentally, the City by the Silt Sea contradicts this conclusion by saying, about the period of the Green Age:
I recognized the walls of Giustenal, though they were new and solid, not broken and crumbling like the ones I passed through only hours before. The city was full of people, though not one of them was a halfling. I saw humans and elves and dwarves, along with a score of creatures I couldn’t identify.
So were some of the cities of the Green Age, like Tyr, Bodach, and Giustenal, constructed by halflings to house the Rebirth races?
Remember the feat of engineering on which Tyr seats? A covered undercity, full of load-bearing pillars, to raise the millennia-old current city above the marshes that developed around the ancient city of Tyr-agi once the waters of the Blue Age receded from around it.
Did the halflings do that, build a new city right over the old one? Did they teach Tyrians how to be astronomers, in 35 years?
This could be a debatable point, in a sense an inconsistency between what is feasible, or what is feasible even in a fantasy universe, and what is written to have happened.
I’ve been toying with the idea halflings must have taught the Rebirth races, that how else do you get races that have just come into existence to have a moderate level of civilization basically overnight?
I always had an issue with the Rebirth (among other things). The halfling's transformed themselves physically into members of various races. Did they all the sudden forget everything they knew prior to that? Did they purposly put up mental blocks within the transformed members to make them forget knowledge of lifeshaping? That seems to be the only logical reason to have innitiated the Rebirth in the first place, to purge lifeshaping itself from Athas. Sorta like, "This knowledge was not meant for mankind (or halfling kind as the case may be." Perhaps the physical alterations were a mere side effect of the proccess, maybe even one that the rhulisti did not know would happen.
I think a kind of very sudden awakening, as if each individual woke up from a coma with basic knowledge of things but without language. They were very intelligent, already adult members of their races and readily accepted the hand the halflings offered them.
If you wake up at 25 without knowledge of your name or even language, but you know that the sounds these short folk make mean something, then you wander to them dazed and confused. They take care of you and teach you how to speak and take care of you over the years and then, without you realising, every month there is less and less of these folk who call themselves halflings. And one day you're all alone, but with people of your own race who you've learned to trust and count on for help.
And then it all begins.
By that time 35 years have passed and the first generations have been born to witness the first passage of the Messenger in the night sky...
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
We've gotten off topic, but what if transformation from the Pristine Tower in general, and the Dark Lens in particular, caused madness? In the case of the Rebirth, they lost their memories. In the case of Borys, he lost his mind (for a century or so). So what's the case with Sadira? :D
She thought she could have two husbands without having any problems:D
Secondly, this isn't an inconsistancy, just something I thought odd. Elemental Clerics usually don't form religions. However it seems to me that it would be in their best interests to do so. Adherents would be better educated about the planes, and would be more likely work harder to preserve their patron's elements. It wouldn't be so easy for Silt Clerics to trick people into thinking they were Earth Clerics. Farmers would know better methods of using the earth and water they have on hand, etc.
Thirdly, sorry, this is bit tangential. But when elemental clerics die, do they appear on their patron's elemental plane as Petitioners? If yes, that would seem to be an even greater inducement to start a religion.
Thirdly, sorry, this is bit tangential. But when elemental clerics die, do they appear on their patron's elemental plane as Petitioners? If yes, that would seem to be an even greater inducement to start a religion
I guess I love being OT ;)
Nope, they should go to the grey like everyone elses. I think that would be a major psychological reason for general masses to not view the worship of the elements in the same way that one could view the worship of deities from other settings. There's no reward for an afterlife. Also, its a very personal and independant kind of worship. The elemental lords and such contact each person individualy (some ask to become clerics, while others may not hav eeven known they were being considered for the job). This would make the clerics a very disorganised lot. Some are good, some are bad. Yeah, there are some organised places of worship, but even they probably don't work like normal churches (there's little in the way of spreading the faith or preaching to the masses, so you don't have things like church mass, preachers, etc).
Can Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings all breed together? We already have the precendent setting Muls and the fantasy standard Half-elves but thanks to the Simon Hawke we have Elflings. Now I seem to remember that Rikus's dwarf gladitorial(sp?) buddy Yarig was in love with his halfling partner Anezka. Would it be possible for them to have dwarfling children? What about the other combinations of Dwelfs(dwarf/elf) and Manlings (human/halflings). If so what combinations of them are sterile and which are fertile?
Anyway I just thought it might be a neat idea to discuss.:D
Originally posted by Pennarin
Don't forget the mix between elf and tarek in the Cerulean Storm.
I totally forgot about that. That brings up the point of whether or not all of the mamilian races can reproduce together or not. What aout the reptilian races? Can pterrans reproduce with nikaal or ssurrans?
Originally posted by Oninotaki
I totally forgot about that. That brings up the point of whether or not all of the mamilian races can reproduce together or not. What aout the reptilian races? Can pterrans reproduce with nikaal or ssurrans?
I think it's safe to say that any tower spawned race can reproduce with any other tower spawned race, as long as said races are capable, i.e. aren't sterile, etc.
That's the way I had always planned on running it anyways.
Doesn't mean there are hordes of elflings, dwelflings, or any other combination you can think of, and any combination would probably be rejected just like the current established ones are.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I think it's safe to say that any tower spawned race can reproduce with any other tower spawned race, as long as said races are capable, i.e. aren't sterile, etc.
That's the way I had always planned on running it anyways.
Doesn't mean there are hordes of elflings, dwelflings, or any other combination you can think of, and any combination would probably be rejected just like the current established ones are.
Wait a min, does that include such combo's as dwari(dwafr/tari)
Nikaaling(nikaal/halfling) etc?
Originally posted by Oninotaki
Wait a min, does that include such combo's as dwari(dwafr/tari)
Nikaaling(nikaal/halfling) etc?
Why not?
Most of the races are from the same basic genetic code anyways.
Note however, the more weird the combo, the tougher time it's going to have in the world. After all, Athas isn't a haven full of biggots for nothing.
:D
Dwari . . . . . . like tari but stronger and more stubborn!
I like it
:pile: :invasion: :pile:
:pile: :bounce: :pile:
"Standard Races"
Halfling
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Tari
Tarek
(Half-giants were a magical creation and I'm having a hard time thinking up any other races that weren't probably PT mutations. Come to think of it, Tareks probably fall under that category, too)
Quarterling
Elfling
Dwarfling
Tariling
Tarekling
Half-elf
Mul
Rat-(wo)man
Ape-(wo)man
Dwelf (Yay!)
Elfari
Tarelf
Dwari
Dwarek
Think that's all of them.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Let's see if I can name all the standard permutations that might occur. I would say that any reptillian race would not be able to breed with a mammalian, Pristine Tower or no:
"Standard Races"
Halfling
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Tari
Tarek
(Half-giants were a magical creation and I'm having a hard time thinking up any other races that weren't probably PT mutations. Come to think of it, Tareks probably fall under that category, too)
Quarterling
Elfling
Dwarfling
Tariling
Tarekling
Half-elf
Mul
Rat-(wo)man
Ape-(wo)man
Dwelf (Yay!)
Elfari
Tarelf
Dwari
Dwarek
Think that's all of them.
Quarterling=Human/Halfling?
Rat-(wo)man=Human/Tari?
Ape-(wo)man=Human/Tarek?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Yup on all three.
cool, just making sure
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Let's see if I can name all the standard permutations that might occur. I would say that any reptillian race would not be able to breed with a mammalian, Pristine Tower or no:
Ok, I can agree with that. Would be too disturbing otherwise.
(Half-giants were a magical creation and I'm having a hard time thinking up any other races that weren't probably PT mutations. Come to think of it, Tareks probably fall under that category, too)
Lask
Tulks (modified elves)
Just to name a few.
what was kalaks level before the events of Freedom? DK says 21, city state of tyr says 25
if the thri-kreen had an empire in the green age, etc...why would Dregoth no know about them.
ashy
The thrikreen never had an empire, and the tohr kreen aren't from the tablelands, therefor dregoth wouldn't care about them too much.
Originally posted by ashramry
as im lazy i havent read all the posts so dont know if these have been posted but.
what was kalaks level before the events of Freedom? DK says 21, city state of tyr says 25
if the thri-kreen had an empire in the green age, etc...why would Dregoth no know about them.
ashy
Well, when the new rules for Epic characters are finalized, I'm sure we'll be able to answer the question about Kalak's level., That's a rather minor inconsistancy, as there has been a massive change in gamesystem mechanics.
And the Thri-Kreen didn't have an empire. The Tohr-Kreen have one, with the jagged cliffs and fetid swamp between them and the Tablelands. dregoth didn't go *everywhere* in the world. Most likely, everything west of the forest ridge area, and the jagged cliffs was off limits to the Champions.
The Thri-Kreen *did* eventually have a nation on the western slopes, and after the Champions overthrew Rajaat, they went and dispatched (Keltis, I believe, among others) to disperse/destroy it.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Ignore the hastily done junk about the pristine tower, and the setting works so much better. Also, the stuff about sadira et al. is from the prism pentad, which doesn't bother with decent writing, character development, or beleivability, much less continuity;)
Bad writing styles aside - blatantly dropping parts of the 2e materials because you don't like how they were written is taking from the setting. Plus, the events of the Prism Pentad are already part of the official timeline, and many people do actually like that series of books. to try and use what can be used, and explain away the rest is better than saying "ignore such-and-such book" completely. I personally don't care for much in the Tribe of One series, and yet I use what I do like from it. I even try to use the very little bit of possibly useful information (about 2-5% of the material presented) from the Dragon and Dungeon magazines - even though I'm one of the louder complainers agains that conversion. when you start crossing out complete publications for Dark Sun in their entirety, you are starting to set up a campaign setting that, IMHO, is very specialized for your own personal games, which isn't a bad thing, but it makes your version of Dark Sun become more and more varied from what the purpose of these Inconsistancy threads was - to come up with a unified consensus on the inconsistancies that most of us can agree upon, so that we could then turn around and have a stable basis to build new material for Dark Sun, where the majority agrees on certian premises. Also it helps with explaining how things work to newbies, and hopefully to have a single source - like a F.A.Q. that covers not only mechanics information, but also rationalized efforts for the setting inconsistancies.
I'm not saying it's bad to cut the books out of your own campaigns - I'm saying it's bad to force everyone else to when trying to find a consensus, or compromise for the setting inconsistancies.
as for the Kreen. no, the Thor-kreen have an empire NOW. the thri-kreen had an empire in the green age.....led by a Kreen and an avangion. It did fall and there was a side comment about how it MAY have been destroyed durring the cleansing wars. but nothing other than opinon to support that keltis was the one involved or that it was after the fall of Rajaat.
I completely disagree with your premise that areas of the world were "off limits" to the champions. Saying that they didnt go EVERYWHERE or at least have spies and such do so for them opens the doors to any of the supposedly extinct rebirth races showing up and saying "we are just from another portion of Athas and the cleansing wars missed us" The halflings werent limited, why would the rebirth races be so?
Its most likely that the SKs set up shop in cities in and near the Tyr region because of its proximity to Rajaat's prison. and the fact the the pristine tower and thus the dark lense was there.
ashy
Inconsistancies:
>Kalak is crippled by a single hit from a 1d8 dmg spear.
>The dragon can't hurt someone who holds his own sword(how does that work. I would think that the weight of his blows alone would crush rikus' spine)
>Rikus kills the dragon
>Sadira is defiler, but does not have to repent and preform the rituals described in preservers&defilers to abandon her defiling ways.
>Sadira is a munchkin, and has a magic artifact turn her into a super powered wizard that doesn't need to draw energy for spells.
>Sadira kills Abalach-Re
>Hamanu can't be hurt by the scourge of Rkard
>The tyrian army defeats urik's army with a single spell.
Granted, some of these are just ludicrous situations, but I classify them as inconsistant with the "Darksun Feel", which is that you can't go around doing whatever you want, killing anything in your way, which is what sadira and rikus do.
Originally posted by ashramry
unfortunately no the epic rules wont help as it becomes an issue of translation between editions. if you want to take either and directly convert it than Kalak isnt even a 30th level character.....as opposed to a 25/25 level character. And the question presupposes a 2nd ed standard.
What's ironic is that this arguement is over semantics. We're bo5th on basically the same side here, and both are nitpicking about the details. While I'm all for semantic arguements, as they are a fundamental part of conversation and communication, it's not going to get us anywhere. I believe that the advanced beings shouldn't need a character to start at level 41, and then only be 10 levels long. I think it should be earlier, and have it start at, with a wizard/psion combination, the possibility of level 28. The character is still quite epic at that point. I also think that the Advanced Being processes - which are undoubtebly much more extensive and pronounced physical changes than any other "transformational" prestige class available for 3/3.5e, should also have this reflected in their length and depth of the process. as such, I divided it into 4 stages, with each stage having an epic spell and template for them, and the first three stages also have a 10-level prestige class attached. This makes the process a total of 30 levels, which to me makes them very epic, and not a process that a PC would undertake and hope to accomplish very fast at all, using the basis of the amount of time that the NPC Dragons and Avangions have done - heck, it's taken Oronis a millenium to develop into the very little bit of athe Avangion process himself - and I could hardly consider him as sitting around idle (about 1,000 years to redeem himself and make the spell, and another 1,000 years to undergo the process). I use the timeframe as a good guideline to help define the class, but not some rigid structure. Heck, I even wrote in how such beings like Kalak, Borys and Kalid-Ma could have rapidly advanced while the others fell far behind. Even how dregoth could be so advanced through it all. But, if you don't like the explanations, that's why there are other versions out there. I have my own personal interpretation of Dragons and Avangions, and am very willing (as it has been shown by the length and frequency of my posts on the subject) to ddiscuss it. However, it is very much an unofficial view on it, and was something I developed using a variety of sources. it is quite unconventional, as I totally broke many of the molds that I felt were inadiquite in the 2e version. I also have spent the last year and a half working on it.
as for the Kreen. no, the Thor-kreen have an empire NOW. the thri-kreen had an empire in the green age.....led by a Kreen and an avangion. It did fall and there was a side comment about how it MAY have been destroyed durring the cleansing wars. but nothing other than opinon to support that keltis was the one involved or that it was after the fall of Rajaat.
The Tohr-Kreen empire existed back to the green age, as it most likely was the development of something started in the Blue Age. The thri-Kreen NATION, of which I had listed almost all of the references of it found in the only source that had it - the Thri-Kreen of Athas book, was pretty much started by Thri-Kreen who had fled the Tohr-Kreen Empire, and set up shop there during the green age. It was near the Jagged Cliffs, in the Hinterlands area, where the giant Kreen head statue is. It did fall, and is suggested in the book that it was attacked by the Sorcerer-Kings and the Dragon. I made some speculations myself about it through my previous idea, in another Inconsistancy thread, about the Great One.
I completely disagree with your premise that areas of the world were "off limits" to the champions. Saying that they didnt go EVERYWHERE or at least have spies and such do so for them opens the doors to any of the supposedly extinct rebirth races showing up and saying "we are just from another portion of Athas and the cleansing wars missed us" The halflings werent limited, why would the rebirth races be so?
Because the rebirth races appeared from the effects of the Pristine Tower. And Rajaat was further protecting the Halflings, and didn't consider the Thri-Kreen as sentient (or else there would have been a Thri-Kreen Champion, No?) He protected the Halfings in their jungles, and might have simply told his Champions "Go here and NO FURTHER" to keep them away from his beloved Halflings. the Thri-Kreen nation then could have been protected simply because of the proximity to the protected Halfling locales. Dregoth was fighting Giants anyway, and he may very well have just not gotten over into that area - he didn't really look like he was ever done with the giants, as they still exist. Further, I';ve always had the impression that he was busy doing other things (like my conjecture that he developed the Dragon Metamorphosis spells, and might have very well been keeping himself busy with that, and only killing a "token" number of Giants to keep Rajaat happy).
Its most likely that the SKs set up shop in cities in and near the Tyr region because of its proximity to Rajaat's prison. and the fact the the pristine tower and thus the dark lense was there.
ashy
Which is why they settled here, yes. I'm not arguing that at all. I was just saying that it is VERY POSSIBLE that Dregoth just never got over to the Crimson Savaanah area, or close enough to the Jagged Cliffs to ever give a damn about the Thri-Kreen.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Very well, I apologise for my blantant PP bashing. I will help out and list some inconsistancies in the novels now.:D
Inconsistancies:
>Kalak is crippled by a single hit from a 1d8 dmg spear.
I agree. but, as is mentioned on Nytrawlr's site - there's ways to explain this, like making Kalak not a "real" Champion of Rajaat, and then there's the fact that he was kinda weakened due to the effects of the transformation spell, which I included in my own Dragon write-ups.
>The dragon can't hurt someone who holds his own sword(how does that work. I would think that the weight of his blows alone would crush rikus' spine)
Let's see. The sword was made by Rajaat. Possibly to protect his Champion. What's the odds that it would have some arcane ability that shields the wielder from harm? I mean, really. The creator of arcane magic doing something like that for one of his generals to lead his war against Dwarves (who have nasty habits of having all kinds of weapons and know how to use them), that he'd ever try for the overkill shot, and make his Champion virtually immune to damage while wielding the specialgift Rajaat gave him?
>Rikus kills the dragon
No. Rajaat kills the Dragon. Rikus just happened to be wielding the weapon Rajaat used. don't forget it was the essence of Rajaat that actually killed him. and once again, the odds that the creator of Magic, the closest thing to a bona-fide god on Athas, could killhis creations?
>Sadira is defiler, but does not have to repent and preform the rituals described in preservers&defilers to abandon her defiling ways.
Because she becomes a Sun Wizard. She isn't a defiler, she's a preserver who slipped up - she doesn't *always* defile. remember, the way the rules work, Preservers can defile, but Defilers can't preserve without redemption. And every time a Preserver defiles, they have the *chance* of becoming a Defiler, it isn't something that happenes the second they defile.
>Sadira is a munchkin, and has a magic artifact turn her into a super powered wizard that doesn't need to draw energy for spells.
With the assistance of a godlike being and his servants. this has never happened in any other book written in a fantasy setting. sheesh.
>Sadira kills Abalach-Re
Using the power Rajaat gave her, which could have been stacked in her favor to accomplish this. Once again, we're talking about the being that CREATED Arcane magic, as well as his Champions. If he could do that, who says he couldn't have tweaked Sadira with the ability to kill a Sorcerer-Queen (even just made it "possible" for her to do so), even if he did it through the actions of his servants.
>Hamanu can't be hurt by the scourge of Rkard
Hamanu was the last Champion of Rajaat. He most likely got a specially-rigged version of the abilities, and, as is mentioned in Rise & Fall, could have very well been Rajaat's trump card - the Champion agains Humans as well as the Champion to slaughter other Champions. As such, he has the ability to (relatively easily) kill other Champions - ike Dregoth & Sielba, as well as assisting in the killing of Kalid-Ma. He could very well have some advantage that makes him immune to weapons that could have harmed other Champions. there is much with him that Rajaat could have planned out.
>The tyrian army defeats urik's army with a single spell.
Ok, I'll agree. this is far-fetched. so I usually work with that there was much more going on there than the novel presented.
Granted, some of these are just ludicrous situations, but I classify them as inconsistant with the "Darksun Feel", which is that you can't go around doing whatever you want, killing anything in your way, which is what sadira and rikus do.
Actually, most of them are, to me, very much part of the Dark Sun "feel", as I've explained. Things that to me aren't, are - the fact that in the PP Diants come from Dwarves, which there are simply errors in the setting when you look at Dregoth and what he was supposedly doing in Cleansing Wars. Kalak did get killed quickly, but it could potentially be explained, as I noted above. And I never really cared for the "Sun Wizard" designs that Sadira had been done with, or that the Sorcerer-Kings, who ruled for thousands of years, get offed one after another - but that can be explained with the power of Rajaat.
>Sadira. True that other settings love uber-munch. But I always liked that Darksun distanced itself from this.
Otherwise, your counter arguments ring true.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
>Sadira kills Abalach-Re
Nope, Rajaat's essence from the scourge did that, not Sadira, though Sadira did help some in keeping her busy.
All of the SKs that were killed in the novels, other than Kalak, were killed by Rajaat.
Hence why I strongly think Kalak isn't a real champion, but just a powerful wizard that happen to be in the right spot at the right time.
Hopefully I can talk to Denning about this at GenCon if he is around this year.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
What's ironic is that this arguement is over semantics. We're bo5th on basically the same side here, and both are nitpicking about the details.
huh?
who is arguing? im stating that the issue is not going to be resolved using any edition other than 2nd. That was what the question presupposes and the only answer im interested in. if this forum can come up with a resonable way to account for the supposed inconsistency without the cop out of simply saying one version is a missprint then im all for it. a good example of such would be nytcrwlers Kalidney explanation. Unfortunately in terms of canon and determining such inconsistency questions trying to mesh any 3e or 3.5 rules with previously published 2nd ed stuff and just doesnt work.
My personal belief on the matter is that kalak was 25th and only trying to skip the "insane period" of his transformation. The Dragon kings explanation then is only half right, and the other half was rethought with the later product.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The Tohr-Kreen empire existed back to the green age, as it most likely was the development of something started in the Blue Age. The thri-Kreen NATION, of which I had listed almost all of the references of it found in the only source that had it - the Thri-Kreen of Athas book, was pretty much started by Thri-Kreen who had fled the Tohr-Kreen Empire, and set up shop there during the green age. It was near the Jagged Cliffs, in the Hinterlands area, where the giant Kreen head statue is. It did fall, and is suggested in the book that it was attacked by the Sorcerer-Kings and the Dragon. I made some speculations myself about it through my previous idea, in another Inconsistancy thread, about the Great One.
ok, first off the Thri-kreen DID have an empire. Aside from the purely semantic argument that NATION is only a designation for a group bound by a geographic or ethnic parameters as opposed to a name for a type of government which would indicate rule by one or few. (yes i love semantics too) It tells us in The Thri-Kreen of Athas that the nation was lead by "a mighty Thri-Kreen emperor and an avangion"- players handout #1
This empire was destroyed durring the clensing wars and the Thor-kreen empire may not have even existed then. as for them fleeing the thor-kreen...where did you get that? all it says in the TKoA is that the Zik-trin are hated in racial memory due to them being unnatural creations. Also....we really know nothing about the original location of the Thri-Kreen empire.....all we know is the Chak-sa (head in the hinterlands) was made as a memorial and possibly warning of sorts.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Because the rebirth races appeared from the effects of the Pristine Tower. And Rajaat was further protecting the Halflings, and didn't consider the Thri-Kreen as sentient (or else there would have been a Thri-Kreen Champion, No?) He protected the Halfings in their jungles, and might have simply told his Champions "Go here and NO FURTHER" to keep them away from his beloved Halflings. the Thri-Kreen nation then could have been protected simply because of the proximity to the protected Halfling locales. Dregoth was fighting Giants anyway, and he may very well have just not gotten over into that area - he didn't really look like he was ever done with the giants, as they still exist. Further, I';ve always had the impression that he was busy doing other things (like my conjecture that he developed the Dragon Metamorphosis spells, and might have very well been keeping himself busy with that, and only killing a "token" number of Giants to keep Rajaat happy).
Which is why they settled here, yes. I'm not arguing that at all. I was just saying that it is VERY POSSIBLE that Dregoth just never got over to the Crimson Savaanah area, or close enough to the Jagged Cliffs to ever give a damn about the Thri-Kreen.
It is more likely that Rajaat simply didnt care about the kreen as they had existed in the blue age as well. There was no Thri-kreen champion because they did not evolve from halflings. durring the rebirth.
It should also be noted that the halflings were EVERYWHERE. They lived in the world for thousands of years and could easily traverse the ocean that is now the sea of silt, or go over the jagged cliffs. And the rebirth races had nothing to do with the Pristine Tower. it was the Halfling Lifeshappers who transformed themselves to create the varius demihuman races. No, Rajaat would not be keeping his champions from going anywhere....and it was certainly within their power and need to do be able to travel everywhere. The cleansing wars DID last centuries remember. If your explanation for the inconsistency is that Dregoth is a poor champion and didnt care enough about his world or current events to even so much as know which races inhabit it, then i will buy it. I mean it took long enough for the champions to realize that Raj wanted to give the world back to the halflings to support that idea. there was no "Hey, why isnt there a halfling champion?" comming for many years. I dont buy that he was only killing a token number of giants though...not with his hatred of them, and not with Myron having been replaced already.....that would be tempting fate too much.
ashy
Originally posted by ashramry
It should also be noted that the halflings were EVERYWHERE. They lived in the world for thousands of years and could easily traverse the ocean that is now the sea of silt, or go over the jagged cliffs. And the rebirth races had nothing to do with the Pristine Tower. it was the Halfling Lifeshappers who transformed themselves to create the varius demihuman races.
The general concensus, I believe, is that the halflings retired themselves, for lack of a better expression, after they had destroyed their ocean and gathered in the vicinity of the Pristine Tower. The halflings used the tower to modify themselves so that, as they would walk away from the tower, new plants would sprout in their wake and themselves would spawn into an individual of a new race or animal. So about 99% of contemporary forms of life on Athas come from a halfling exodus of the tower, an outward radiation with the tower at its center. The legend, as presented in the Timeline, P&D and the Revised Boxed Set does not suggest in anyway that the rhulisti embarked on their organic boats and planes to spread the new life everywhere. Thus kobolds and humans and such are ever diminishing in numbers as you go farther from the tower (but people did embark on boats in the Green Age and navigated to the other side of the sea and such). Eventually all you encounter is creatures and plants that survived from the Blue Age (there were some land masses, mainly islands), including thri-kreen, and those animals and plants that managed to spread fast and far enough in the intervening millenia.
Originally posted by Pennarin
The general concensus, I believe, is that the halflings retired themselves, for lack of a better expression, after they had destroyed their ocean and gathered in the vicinity of the Pristine Tower. The halflings used the tower to modify themselves so that, as they would walk away from the tower, new plants would sprout in their wake and themselves would spawn into an individual of a new race or animal. So about 99% of contemporary forms of life on Athas come from a halfling exodus of the tower, an outward radiation with the tower at its center. The legend, as presented in the Timeline, P&D and the Revised Boxed Set does not suggest in anyway that the rhulisti embarked on their organic boats and planes to spread the new life everywhere. Thus kobolds and humans and such are ever diminishing in numbers as you go farther from the tower (but people did embark on boats in the Green Age and navigated to the other side of the sea and such). Eventually all you encounter is creatures and plants that survived from the Blue Age (there were some land masses, mainly islands), including thri-kreen, and those animals and plants that managed to spread fast and far enough in the intervening millenia.
except it doesnt dany the idea either. assuming ALL the halflings on the planet gathered together in the pristine tower is not very logical. We know that their civilization was vast and not bound by the terrain. Also assuming that the natrue masters needed the pristine tower to change themselves i would think severly underestimates their power. I grant you that most of the unique to athas beasts were transformed by the tower but there is no reason why ALL the Rhulisti would have had to use it tor voluntarily transform themselves.
Even if they did need it, do you really think little things like natural geographic barriers would stop the insatiable curiosity of a gnome. Look at where the gomes of Taladas on krynn live. The green age lasted long enough for their kind to spread all over the world, assuming they were restriced to just a small area doenst seem logical to me. (just an example)
ashy
The Prism Pentad novels would disagree in context.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
The whole "Crossing the threshhold"-thing. In a few places, it is stated that it's nearly impossible to get to the outer planes, supported by the fact that there are no gods on Athas. Even so, there is a great deal of evidence for this to have happened. Athasian elves are mentioned in Planescape's Book of Chaos, Zik-chil are remarkably similar to the Spelljammer Xic-chil, and so on. So what gives? Can you travel to the planes or not?
The key words are "Nearly Impossible"
Even in the Planescape setting, it says that Athas is Nearly impossible to reach. But even Dregoth had a Planar Gate.
hey ashy
the races of athas are restiricted to one area because of "sustainability", that being the ability of ones surroundings to support their society...
do you think that the crimson savanah is a place where gnomes would thrive, no mountains around, endless miles to walk with those short little legs... and wicked awesome bugs to boot.
The Tyr region has been likened to a pangea-like island... where are all of the other races going to live
why can't we all just develop ideas for the available area (the stuff our forefathers mapped out) before we tackle other ideas (like how Ebe is NOT on the other side of the sunrise sea)
Originally posted by kefka
hey ashy
the races of athas are restiricted to one area because of "sustainability", that being the ability of ones surroundings to support their society...
do you think that the crimson savanah is a place where gnomes would thrive, no mountains around, endless miles to walk with those short little legs... and wicked awesome bugs to boot.
The Tyr region has been likened to a pangea-like island... where are all of the other races going to live
why can't we all just develop ideas for the available area (the stuff our forefathers mapped out) before we tackle other ideas (like how Ebe is NOT on the other side of the sunrise sea)
unfortunately the explanation doesnt make senes. Wemics would certainly thrive in a place like the savana, lizardmen are adapted to either swamp (like that near the misty border) or sandy wastes.
My point is and has ever been that there is no real justifcation for the rebirth races to be a localized phenominon. Hence the champions wouldnt have been restricted in their search durring their several thousand year long cleansing wars either. The only real area we know they were restricted from traveling to was the the jagged cliffs area near the Rhul-Thuan. but we know from the dead land how far south the wars needed to rage, and from mind lords at least how far north....who is to say that is the limit?
i have no interest in tackling other areas not yet mapped out.
but, come on, the idea that the SK's have knowledge of distant places and areas in the world should hold some appeal to the DM in you.
ashy