The thread you are currently reading is directly related to the subject line. Keep the conversation confined to that topic, please, or I'll have to kick you in the junk.
Okay, on to the topic at hand: In Dragon Kings, it's mentioned that a full-blown 30th level Dragon has big, flappy wings. In the original WJ, it was mentioned that The Dragon (that would be Borys) was wingless. There are two (or more) possible reasons for this:
#1) When the WJ was written, they were just building the world and hadn't really decided what they were going to do with The Dragon. Once they solidified it, they realized that any real dragon had to have wings. Thus, the wingless Athasian Dragon evolved into the winged one of Borys we all know and love on the cover of Valley of Dust and Fire.
I lean towards this one.
#2) Borys is a malformed dragon that took the quick route. The other champions forced the last few levels of change into Borys, so he formed differently than other "true" dragons. Thus, he has all the powers of a 30th level dragon, but lacks the wings.
There are probably more reasons out there; I thought of a few while writing this. Let's hear them and come to a (majority rules) consensus.
PS: I'm serious about the junk-kicking.
(Full of holes, this one, such as his wingless appearance in PP for a start, but there you go).
I'd agree with Dawnstealer's first reason as being the real reason - it's just a design kink. But the idea of a stunted/rushed dragon is cooler
.What's interesting is that the transform seed from the Epic Level Handbook specifically notes that wings are counted along with natural abilities, and thus make no difference in the Spellcraft DC. So (at least from a 3E point of view), it wouldn't have made Borys' fast transformation any easier to accomplish if he lacked wings.
When flying, Borys had his wings. However, after he would land to 'take care of business', the wings would engulf themselves in flames, burning away into a viscous ichor that would drip for a few rounds, searing anyone unfortunate to be close to him. When he needed to take to the skies again, it took two rounds or so for the wings to bloodily break from his flesh and grow again.
At least, that's how I covered my tracks after innitially using the more humanoid dragon in a campaign, then forgetfully switching to the winged description later on . . . I got a lot of "Hey, that's not how you said he looked before!", so I needed to think of something.
He had wings in my description even though the winged version hadn't been released, yet. I just think a big dragon should have wings.
Let's hear the other side: who thinks Borys should stay as he was in the Wanderer's Journal? I'm going to let this one sit until the end of the week, then we'll have a vote on it. Let's hear the best arguments.
**EDIT**
Oh, something else I thought of. Perhaps the Dragon "sheds" (sort of as mentioned above) its wings by some magical nature when it is burrowing or otherwise doing something in an enclosed space.
Given the time that the WJ was written, when the Dragon was practically a myth, it could be that the only living accounts of the Dragon were when he had just surfaced and was not hunting/traveling, hence the lack of wings.
That would be me. :D
I only remembered the Dragon was wingless when it was reminded to me on these boards. I dont much care if the beautiful image from Valley of Dust and Fire is really of Borys or not.
I would probably have said to consider the winglesness to be an error and to consider him to have wings, until I found-out Xlorep didn't fold on it and took the hard way by making certain steps in the metamorphosis process skippable by choice.
Thus Borys as all the goodies but with a morphological quirk or two less...
Porkchops: The accounts are not from the WJ since all they say there is bound to be skewed since it came so early on in the development process, but from the last Prism Pentad book, which came a lot later. Anyone has dates to both products, so we can compare? My copy of the Cerulean Storm says its from 1993 (in comparaison Verdant Passage is from 91)...
Someone has a copy of the first Boxed Set at hand?
I just want to add that the Dragon on the cover of Dragon Kings has no wings at all... and I thought it was Borys...:D
And I prefer him like this!
Originally posted by Mach2.5
When flying, Borys had his wings. However, after he would land to 'take care of business', the wings would engulf themselves in flames, burning away into a viscous ichor that would drip for a few rounds, searing anyone unfortunate to be close to him. When he needed to take to the skies again, it took two rounds or so for the wings to bloodily break from his flesh and grow again.
What you have just heard is the sound of an idea being stolen. Please do not be alarmed; official Cool Gaming Ideas are legally allowed to be stolen under the Stealing Cool Gaming Ideas law of the 1970s, first presented to Congress by Senator G. Gygax.
--thank you, please leave the building in an orderly fashion NB
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
True, but this wasn't an epic level spell - it was a mutation enforced by an artifact.
Granted, it's been a while since I've looked at this stuff, but this is how I thought it went:
After drop-kicking Rajaat's essence into the Hollow, the 13 remaining Champions all made their way to the top of the Pristine Tower. While up there, they all had the 1st stage defiler metamorphosis cast on themselves. Then, using the power of the Pristine Tower/Dark Lens/both, they cast the Mother of All Spells on Borys, doing in one spell what normally took ten.
I had assumed that, using 3E epic rules, that the Pristine Tower and Dark Lens were just used as collosal mitigating factors. After all, wasn't that the Dark Lens' primary power, i.e. essentially metamagicking (is that even a word?) the heck out of a user's spells?
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
What you have just heard is the sound of an idea being stolen.
He! He!
I think you just got a Boot in the teeths, Mach!
...lucky you...
Originally posted by Throkat
I had assumed that, using 3E epic rules, that the Pristine Tower and Dark Lens were just used as collosal mitigating factors.
This certainly fits. After all, the Dark Lens and the Pristine Tower are the two most powerful artifacts Athas has ever seen, so I'd imagine the Spellcraft DC took a huge hit downward when the SKs used them for the transfiguration of Borys the Butcher of Dwarves.
--so yeah, I imagine the tower and lens lowered the DC by 100 or more NB
But I do like the idea above, where Borys both has, and doesn't have wings
What you have just heard is the sound of an idea being stolen. Please do not be alarmed; official Cool Gaming Ideas are legally allowed to be stolen under the Stealing Cool Gaming Ideas law of the 1970s, first presented to Congress by Senator G. Gygax
Errr . . . ummm. . . . who's the thief here? I'm lost. . . I thought I was fairly original there. Of course, some ideas come under the heading of 'anonymous subcounscious collective of too many rpg books'. Unless of course you were refering to the abjective theft of my uber cool neato idea, in which case, by all means. Be warned, after doing this though, the PCs at the the time started commenting of it sounding a bit Lovecraftian or Resident Evil (and liking it), and so began my own departure into a much more dark Athas than canon.
I think you just got a Boot in the teeths, Mach!
As of today, I'm only posting with a football helmet on, so as to prevent any further loss of teeth ;)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Errr . . . ummm. . . . who's the thief here? I'm lost. . . I thought I was fairly original there.
Nero's Boot was informing you that your idea was now being stolen... by Nero's Boot
Nero's Boot was informing you that your idea was now being stolen... by Nero's Boot
Wasn't sure how to take that. Still don't know what someone's boot is going to do with the idea . . . not too many boots around in my area run their own game (though quite a few attend gaming sessions, they rarely have any decent imput). Still, equal opprotunity ;)
*/ boots Nero's Boot in the junk.
"Stay on topic, dammit."
Good ideas, all: keep 'em coming.
With my Dragon writeup on my website, I took the idea of him being wingless, as well as the idea that a Dragon could "accelerate" their development - ala Borys, Kalak and Kalid-Ma, who each accelerated and "skipped ahead" to the final stage of metamorphosis early. I felt that it made sense, as it provides more power (and thus becomes something that power-hungry individuals would desire), however the side-effect would be that they become underdeveloped, and in some cases, completely lose parts of the metamorphosis (like growing wings). Plus, this allows for each of the dragons to really be able to be different, in a rule-system-defined way. Of course, it also adds to the complexity. As such, I left the "accelerated" method as an option in my write-up, so people can make their own determinations (besides it's a bit complex).
Anyway, I'm fond of the Borys-is-wingless, or the #2 approach as presented by Dawnstealer. Of course, as I hadn't gotten ahold of the Valley of Dust and Fire until nearly a decade after I started playing Dark Sun, I had never seen the picture of the winged Borys. I had developed an entire, workable, and plausable explanation to the lack of wings, even though the Dragon progressions in Defilers & Preservers as well as Dragon Kings has wings listed. So I chose the "accelerated" design.
Keeps the players guessing, and helps keep the sense of mystery...
"This is what we all agree on. Here's a few other ideas."
I am sure there are plenty of accounts by travellers and villagers of Borys, the serpent dragon and other accounts of Borys, the winged-dragon.
If Borys had no wings but wanted them, he could surely use his magic to grow some. Even temporary ones.
Perhaps he did that to enable flight.
And Dragon Wings should be a Pterrax fried and served at a local Tyrian travern.
Originally posted by Phoenix_Down
I like Korvar's idea that every dragon is unique.
The only problem I have with that personally is that then you cannot easily quantify the transformational process to become a Dragon, which should be a possibility for characters who have achieved Epic Levels and reached the prerequisites. Making them unique is cool, but can be too complicated, unless the changes are purely cosmetic. I point back to my own Dragon write-up which shows a method which the dragons *could* be unique, while still has the metamorphosis defined. Amarauk has a different way - one I don't care for personally, but still is something people might like.
Its also possible that the Dragon is an extremely powerful being and, while he does not have wings himself, he uses magic/psionics/lifeshaping to make himself wings.
Not to take this off-topic, but lifeshaping is the realm of the Blue Age Halflings, and about the only creatures that sill use that technology is the Rhal-thaun (sp?), or Halflings of the Jagged Cliffs. and they forgot how to build more of it.
Is it possible, perhaps that the illustrations of Borys are, in fact, Dregoth? Im not that familliar with the material involving borys.
Possibly, except a) Dregoth is undead. and b) Dregoth generally hides as a 2nd Gen. Dray, and doesn't get out of New Giustenal much (until Dregoth Ascending), and with the exception of plane-hopping through the outer planes).
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
I think this is a moot point because if any players saw the Dragon of Tyr, they probably wouldn't live to tell about it.
While basically true, the problem is that this is a question that has been brought up again & again & again in the past. It is also something which I personally seem to disagree with many others on this forum. It would be, for the purposes of knocking out Dark Sun's inconsistancies so that people are all on the same sheet of music, actually a very valid point to bring up. My guess is this one was selected first by Dawnstealer either at random, or because it deals with the big guy Borys, which is a popular topic from time to time.
I am sure there are plenty of accounts by travellers and villagers of Borys, the serpent dragon and other accounts of Borys, the winged-dragon.
True, I'm sure there are such things..... songs & stories told at the Bard's Quarters. Don't forget that the Dragon was basically considered a myth by the people, something to scare children, but not generally believed to be true (or that's the perception I got on it). Even those who did see him and lived to tell about it, would most likely question their own memory of the encounter. Borys tended to not like the company of people much, and seemed to prefer killing those who could have seen him.
If Borys had no wings but wanted them, he could surely use his magic to grow some. Even temporary ones.
Perhaps he did that to enable flight.
That's a valid point. using a power or a pell to make wings for short periods of time could work. Use magic and/or psionics to supplement his deformity.
And Dragon Wings should be a Pterrax fried and served at a local Tyrian travern.
Lol :D
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The only problem I have with that personally is that then you cannot easily quantify the transformational process to become a Dragon, which should be a possibility for characters who have achieved Epic Levels and reached the prerequisites. Making them unique is cool, but can be too complicated, unless the changes are purely cosmetic.
I was going for purely cosmetic, personally...
If they like to be humanoid, they shape to humanoid forms, if they want to have wings they shape in a form with wings. I think that should be a SQ of Dargons on Athas.
The official documentation:
p. 42, left Column, Dragon Kings
The art in the DARK SUN boxed set and this volume shows dragons in the middle levels - use these for inspiration.
And in Valley of Dust and Fire:
p. 4, left column, Valley of Dust and Fire
Its scales glowed red with the heatof the naked magma, and the clouds gathered beneath its wings like a storm of fire.
Both of these quotes would seem to support the Dragon having wings. I don't have my copy of the Prism Pentad, but if someone could toss up the quotes from that book, let's see what we have. My copies are sitting in a box somewhere in Hawaii, so are little out of reach.
"Alle Hexenkönige sind Drachen irgendeiner Art, obwohl sie verschiedene, ihrem Geschmack entsprechende Gestalt annehmen. Wenn Kalak sich nach meiner Gestalt unzuformen wünschte...."
In my previous post I just tried to translate it as good as I can.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Unless of course you were refering to the abjective theft of my uber cool neato idea, in which case, by all means. Be warned, after doing this though, the PCs at the the time started commenting of it sounding a bit Lovecraftian or Resident Evil (and liking it), and so began my own departure into a much more dark Athas than canon.
The sound you have just heard is a million tiny heads made of sentient green cheese nodding, "Yes, this is the correct manner to interpret my earlier statement." Do not be alarmed, and leave the building in an orderly, controlled manner.
--thank you, that is all NB
To the matter at Hand:
I think the Dragon, or Borys of Ebe the Dragon, should not have wings. I myself had arrived at the same hypothesis as you guys did over this, that the accelerated transformation ''botched'' the metamorphosis process in some ways, and that Borys did not develop wings as a result.
I would also point out that there is some evidence that the process was botched in some way, since Borys became mad for a full century, according to the source material, after his transformation, a state far worse than standard 10 step metamorphosis.
Anyways, I have always enjoyed the first images I saw of the Dragon of Tyr looking more humanoid-like with mottled and bony skin, ill-looking traits and face.
As for the flying dragon described in other material, it stands to reason that the Dragon could very well use magics and/or psionics to duplicate the effects of flying or even creating wings for himself.
Finally, I do think that all sorcerer-kings who turn into dragons do so in slightly different ways anyways, though not to the extent I saw someone describe here. However, when you look at the shadow-king in Dragon form, he looks a lot more like a, well, shadow dragon, or some kind of black eel like draconic creature. I think that's pretty cool.
Well, that it for me.
1) Borys is a fully-formed dragon.
2) Because Borys was formed by the Dark Lens in the Pristine Tower, his jump to full-time dragon was disrupted and possibly corrupted.
3) He does not have wings, but, being an amazingly powerful sorcerer and psion, making wings "on the fly" (heh, heh, heh) would not be very difficult.
So here's what I arrived at: I like the thought the Borys is a fully-formed dragon, but lacks wings. He can create wings with little effort, however (read: NO maintaining cost), because he has been doing it for so long it's second nature.
Votes? Yay or nay. I guess we'll run this through the end of the week and hear arguments for and against. On Saturday (or whenever I get off my butt), we'll add it up and see what we have. Then we'll move on to the next inconsistency.
But then I'd have to kick you in the junk, and you know how I feel about junk-kicking.
Oi! Probably the same as I feel about facial stabbings
I do think that Borys should be a special case (I would lump Kalak or Kalid-Ma in there as well if either had finished their rapid transformation process). With or without wings, Borys should appear vastly different in some way from what the PCs could attain through metamorphosis.
Dig it.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I liked Xlor's idea of a fast-ticket to dragonhood, too. I think I brought it up before that the SKs would probably float a few lower-power metamorph spells out there so that no dragon could ever arise and actually be able to challenge them. So a (using 2e) 30th level quick-dragon wouldn't be as powerful as a 22nd level Hamanu.
Dig it.
Actually, I was covering the SM's increased power through the Sorcerer-Monarch and Champion of Rajaat templates. Plus, they might have some other abilities to help define them more uniquely. Examples being - Hamanu, the "Champion of Champions", who was given the task to finish Rajaat's schemes - he has some unique qualities that separates him from others (like reversing the effects of any weapon that inflicts damage specifically to injure dragons, i.e.: Dragon Bane weapons; the extra dice instead heal Hamanu rather than harm him. Example: a Dragonbane longsword does 1d8 damage, but heals him 2d6.); Dregoth has his undead status to contend with, etc.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
So here's what I arrived at: I like the thought the Borys is a fully-formed dragon, but lacks wings. He can create wings with little effort, however (read: NO maintaining cost), because he has been doing it for so long it's second nature.
Votes? Yay or nay. I guess we'll run this through the end of the week and hear arguments for and against. On Saturday (or whenever I get off my butt), we'll add it up and see what we have. Then we'll move on to the next inconsistency.
I think this could work, but not in that exact way. The thing is, if Borys could ''manifest/summon'' wings at no cost, then the Dragon would probably always have wings, and thus there would be no point in saying he was wingless.
I think he should manifest wings at a low cost, but only for a set duration. I think the best way to think in terms of d20 of it is that borys has used the appropriate feats to make this power/spell an innate spell-like (psi-like) ability which he can use a certain number of times per day.
However, in a flavor point of view, I'd like to think that Borys later used his spells and powers to gain wings, but these can only form a few times per day, and only for some hours, and that causes great pain to the dragon as they tear from his body. Actually, if you look at the illustration of the Dragon on the cover of VoDaF, the wings look very fleshy and torn.
Anyways, that's my vote, and it is a yay, in essence.
he ran out of gummy-berry juice so he just swam the rest of the way to shore and ran the rest of the way
Its from the Valley of Dust and Fire, page 4.
Galek Sandstrider reports in his journal he saw the Dragon fly away.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
The official documentation:
p. 42, left Column, Dragon Kings
The art in the DARK SUN boxed set and this volume shows dragons in the middle levels - use these for inspiration.
And in Valley of Dust and Fire:
p. 4, left column, Valley of Dust and Fire
Its scales glowed red with the heatof the naked magma, and the clouds gathered beneath its wings like a storm of fire.
[/b]
I think, with these, it's pretty apparent that Borys has wings.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Of course, Borys could always polymorph and then cast permanency. Bam-o! Wings! Forever. It would require a spell specifically designed to do so, but it's not like Borys was lacking in resources or time.
Couldn't that mean his wings could be dispelled with a dispel magic? DC would be nearly impossible, but...
I think, with these, it's pretty apparent that Borys has wings.
Yeah, it's fun to play devil's advocate, but I think that's the case, guys: Borys had himself some wings!
Also, though many artwork could show dragons in the process of being created, the first depiction of the Dragon of Tyr, in the first edition of DS, shows Borys, not any dragon, without wings. (WJ p.89)
However, having Borys always have wings does contradict many depictions of the Dragon.
However, having Borys always have wings does contradict many depictions of the Dragon.
I seem to remember a few descriptions of that, too, but haven't been able to actually find them. Post the quotes if you do; otherwise, I'd say that Borys is probably a full-blown, winged dragon (like on the cover of Valley of Dust and Fire), and not the psuedo-human dragon depicted in first edition.
Even so, I would say that Xlor has a great idea, and, if you're looking for a change of pace, or want to throw something different at your players, definitely check out Xlor's (and others) ideas about The Dragon.
Official: Borys had wings.
(flames or arguments, if you got them, but the documentation backs this up)
Okay, hear me out.
When I approached the Kalidnay contradiction, I tried to find a way to make both seemingly conflicting descriptions of the event that led to the destruction of the City fit together so that you would not have do disregard any version, DS1e or DS2e.
The thing is, that contradiction, as the Dragon's, is basically a contradiction between first ed. and second ed. of Dark Sun. It looks pretty clear to me that the authors of the setting had originally drawn up the Dragon of Tyr, and perhaps all the (few) athasian dragons, as wingless. However, they later changed their minds, and simply drew up winged dragons again, overwriting original material. They even provided an explanation for earlier drawing by stating that these represented mid-level dragons, an explanation which works, but frankly, I doubt that all earlier depictions of the Dragon were really meant to show half-formed dragons... anyways...
So, in essence, Dawnstealer's verdict is correct: The Dragon has wings, because the original wingless dragon has been overwritten.
Now, this is ok, but I think we could do better, much like I humbly think I managed to do with the Kalidnay contradiction.
If we were to stricly follow re-editions, then Kalidnay would certainly not be in Ravenloft, and all that earlier material would be overruled. However, though I do agree its important not to overrule later material, since they should have precedence, I think the best way to go at it is to try to make everything work in a unified whole, without having to simply ignore material to make the rest function.
Now. Dawnstealer requested information on where the dragon was described as wingless. Before I do provide the information, I would simply point out that I was talking of depictions, as in images, which are found throughout Dark Sun early material, and not descriptions, though there is such material.
In fact, the only complete description of Borys the Dragon that I know of comes from the first edition boxed set. There, on page 89, we have a full page description of the Dragon of Tyr.
1- This description clearly refers to Borys, as they state that this is the ONLY dragon of the Tyr Region.
2- The image clearly shows the Dragon of Tyr wingless.
3- The complete physical description of the dragon, which I think is probably the most complete, makes no mention of wings, nor does other sections of the description.
Now. Though it is easier to simlpy disregard the earlier descriptions of the dragon in favor of the re-editions, I think that their is still a way not to exclude any of this material in the way that we had previously determined.
Indeed, if the dragon can create wings by magical and/or psionic or supernatural ability for some amount of time, then the dragon would fit both descriptions, being wingless most of the time, and having wings when he most needs to. That way, depictions of the wingless dragon gazing out in the desert would be accurate, and those of the winged dragon over the Valley of Dust and Fire or the Silt Sea also would be.
However, if we choose to have the dragon always have wings, then earlier material must be disregarded completely. This can be done, but I believe it should only be used when a compromise is impossible to reach.
I rest my case. ;)
No sense repeating what Shei-Nad so eloquently described.
Sorry, guys, but Borys had to have wings. I like the other idea a lot, I love Brom's sketch of a dragon overlooking the wastes, standing on thick, bird-like legs, but I think we have to go with the later books and their more complete description of the Dragon.
By the way, this is more the debate I was looking for. :D
The picture of Borys in the WJ does not depict his back. He could a) have no wings; b) have tiny wings; c) have folded wings
EDIT: Mwahahaha :D
The Amber Enchantress, p328-329:
Before Kled's gate stood Borys, his slithering tail swished languidly about, stirring up as much dust as a whirlwind. Despite the distance and the haze, Sadira could see that the Dragon was as tall as a full giant, with a body so gaunt that he would have made an elf seem stout. He had skin the color of iron, with a chitinous hide equal parts flesh and shell, and each of his willowy legs had two knees that bent in opposite directions. His arms were almost skeletal, ending in long-clawed fingers with swollen, knobby joints. Borys's face was the most frightening aspect of his appearance, for it was no longer even remotely human. Located at the end of a serpentine neck, his head resembled that of a sharp-beaked bird, with a spiked crest of leathery skin and a pair of beady eyes so small they were hardly visible.
Later in the chapter, Borys breathes white-hot sand, but no fire, btw. When injured, he bleeds hot, yellow blood. He leaves by walking away and fades, becoming insubstantial.
The Cerulean Storm, p13:
Borys had appeared next to the flagship, his willowy frame so gaunt it would have made an elf seem stout. Though the Dragon stood waist-deep in silt, his slender head loomed as far above the ship's deck as the highest mast, with a spiked crest of leathery skin running up the back of his serpentine spine. A menacing light glowed in his tiny eyes and wisps of red fume rose from the nostrils at the end of his slender snout.
A later description on p168 paraphrases the one from Amber Enchantress.
A couple of pages later Borys breathes again, only this time it is billowing clouds of a choking orange smoke. He follows this up with hot sand again shortly thereafter. However, this turns out to be an illusion or simulacrum so we can't be sure about the orange smoke.
So no mention of wings at all. But then there is this on p202:
Rkard awoke, gagging on the rotten stench of sulfur fumes and faintly aware that the Dragon still held him. They had stopped flying. Borys stood on a broken hillock of basalt...
And, typically, with no explanation of flight method at all
Anyway, those are the major descriptions of him that I could find in the PP. Haven't gotten around to reading RaFoaDK yet - is he in there too?
Originally posted by Kamelion
Haven't gotten around to reading RaFoaDK yet - is he in there too?
The Dragon himself, or a recollection of him, does not appear in the novel, since its set after its death.
Hamanu does not recall in its flashbacks the period of time in which Borys was the Dragon.
But Hamanu might have made a comment or two in there about the Dragon's appearence:
- Like he said that "the man makes the dragon", meaning the quality of the mortal determines the power he will reach when becoming a dragon. He makes the comments to himself about what Tithian would have becomed if Rajaat had made him a champion. He might mention wings at that point.
- He might also mention the wings when he thinks about what will become of himself if he's forced by his peers to become the next Dragon.
I'll check up the passages and come back to you on it. ;)
Looks like there's no mention of wings, but it might just be they were folded back and not part of the description? Weak, I know, but I honestly think this was just a design discrepancy that was fixed in DS2e.
My vote is still this: if you want the official version, the Dragon has wings (and is dead, so it's kind a moot point, but still fun to argue about), but you're welcome to use the older version where he did not.
Class A creatures have virtually total command over their movements in the air; it is their home. They can maneuver in the air with the same ease as a normal person on the ground, turning at will, stopping quickly, and hovering in place. For them, flying is the same as walking or running.
Class A creatures can face any given direction in a round, and are virtually impossible to outmaneuver in the air. Fighting in the air is no different from fighting on the ground for them, so they can attack every round. This class includes creatures from the elemental plane of Air and creatures able to fly magically, without wings.
Ok this doesn't exactly mean that the dragon of tyr wouldn't have wings but maybe it backups Shei-Nad's opinion, which I think is the best so far.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Kam - thanks, those were the passages I was looking for. My books are packed away, so getting to them would have been a pain.
Most welcome. I should have gotten around to posting them at the start of the thread - ho hum ;)
Looks like there's no mention of wings, but it might just be they were folded back and not part of the description? Weak, I know, but I honestly think this was just a design discrepancy that was fixed in DS2e.
My vote is still this: if you want the official version, the Dragon has wings (and is dead, so it's kind a moot point, but still fun to argue about), but you're welcome to use the older version where he did not.
Yeah, that's my feeling too. I wonder what the original designers made of this. Anybody ever ask one of them?
Originally posted by Bengeldorn
Ok this doesn't exactly mean that the dragon of tyr wouldn't have wings but maybe it backups Shei-Nad's opinion, which I think is the best so far.
Well, your quote definitely shows - he could have flown without wings. Most likely he enhanced himself then?
I personally love the idea that he had a sort of contingency spell/power that made wings when he wanted to fly, but then vanished when he didn't need to any more, as a sort of means to compensate for his lack of development. It seems to give him a bit more character, IMHO.
Originally posted by Bengeldorn
I was wondering how a creature like the dragon could have a maneuverability class of A with wings. Than I took a look in the 2nd ed. DMG and found this entry:
Ok this doesn't exactly mean that the dragon of tyr wouldn't have wings but maybe it backups Shei-Nad's opinion, which I think is the best so far.
Hello, new member long time lurker/DS fan. I just could'nt resist joining these Darksun inconsistances threads that Dawnstealer has started:D That being said here is an Idea I had based off of what Bengeldorn brought up.
Well What if we changed the transformation process? What if in the last step of the dragon transformation the person who was transforming into a dragon lost their wings and was able to fly without the burden of wings thus gaining perfect maneuverability, like many oriental dragons had in 2nd edition(that is if I am remembering correctly).
I think this would explain why Borys is shown with a walking staff without wings and why he was crazy mad loooking when he had wings. Maybe the pic of him on the cover of the valley of dust and fire was when he was still raging and maybe the pic of him in the original wj was after he stopped raging. Basically I just don't imagine a carzy raging dragon to be holding a walking stick.
That may also explain why Dregoth was satisfied with his dray having no wings. If during the last step of the transformation the dragon lost his wings then dray without wings would be a perfect
replica of a dragon in its most powerful form.
So what do guys you think?
I'm not adverse to either version, and I especially like Xlor's version that Borys is a stunted dragon thanks to his quick path to the top, but I think the official version is the big boy has wings (had wings, since he was covered in scourge-goop).
Basically I just don't imagine a carzy raging dragon to be holding a walking stick.
Why not? Nibenay had one when he met up with Rikus and crew in Cerulean Storm (or at least, by assumption and default, it had to be ol Nib). Maybe they both had the same hip-replacement surgery. I mean, they were both well past the age of retirement and all, collecting their pensions and yelling at the kids to get off their sandlot.
I'm rather stuck now with using the 'big lizard without wings' version of Borys anyhow. He can't fly without them, but I do remember the 'fading out' bit and chalked it up to a unique aspect of his own teleport spell (he doesn't vanish immediately, he simply fades out), so it never really mattered much. If he needed to get away, he'd toss out a teleport spell or planeshift power. Not that he ever once needed to get away; most of the time it was the party trying to get away from him.
I do like the idea of justifying the wingless Borys with the unique nature of his transformation. Besides, one of the draw factors for me getting into DS was the fact that THE dragon was this cool, lizard thing that kicked serious butt, and not simply a 'big red/black/blue/or some other color' dragon. I think that making a DS dragon, even at the max stage of metamorphosis, appear as a dragon from a standard fantasy setting cheapens something in DS. Remember, a major theme to DS was breaking from the standard molds. Let's try not to fit some aspects back into those molds.
(edit)
Welcome aboard Oninotaki (thank gawd for cut and paste with the name there ;)). Hope you stick around for the fun, festicities, and Hamster Fest 2004!
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Remember, a major theme to DS was breaking from the standard molds. Let's try not to fit some aspects back into those molds.
to quote Nytcrawlr: Ahmen.
"The art in the DARK SUN boxed set and this volume shows dragons in the middle levels - use these for insperation."
DS1
The monster entry of WJ shows a picture of a dragon without wings.
The entry says that it is the dragon, but there could possibly be others. However this (wingless) dragon has a movement entry for flying with a manoeuvre class of A.
DK
p.40 shows the metamorphing into a dragon step by step.
The monster entry of DK shows a table for improving dragongs by levels.
Level 29 the Dragon now has a "flying" movement rate of 18 (C)
Level 30 the Dragon now has a "flying" movement rate of 45 (A)
It is also said, how a 30th level dragon should look like:
"When the metamorphosis is complete, the dragon will be roughly
40 feet long and weigh 50,000 pounds (25 tons), with massive wings and almost impenetrable scales."
CbtSS
No one would deny that Dregoth has wings.
Monster Manuals of 2nd. (not the one of Dark Sun)
I've checked other Dragons entries in different MM and no dargon of this size and wheigt has a better manoeuvre class than C.
physical
A 40 feet long dragon would need a wing span width of approximately 20 feet (maybe more or less but 20 feet is ok IMHO ). The entry of the manoeuvre class A says, one can freely move in all 3 dimensions (forward/backward/hover/left/right/...). Much strength is needed to fullfill this manoeuvres with 25 tons. A dragon isn't weak at all now but it must very frequently beat with its wings. Since, however, he must beat once in a while, much air is displaced (I think of strength of the wind 10-12 as a reference value there.)
Conclusion:
A. Manoeunvre class A for dragon with size size and weight has to be changed to something less.
B. A 29th level dragon has wings but looses them when he improves to 30th as he now flys magicaly.
I'll go with option B.
*I hope my translating programm has done a good job and blame me for my english knowledge*
When a dragon is in his animalistic rage period(level 25-29 or stages 5-9) Hes not all there in the head(well duh Oni, whats your point) Well you see subconsiouly he knows that he can fly without casts spells or using the way, he can just feel it in his bones. However since he is pretty more lost in a mindset of rage, animal instict, and fury he dosent know how to tap into this power. So his body grows him wings, which are something tangable that his animalist instinctial mind can comprehend. Kind of like "ok now that I have these wings here thats how I can fly".
Its not unitll he comes out of his animalistic rage (at level 30 or stage 10) that his now calm mind can truely understand his abilty to fly to the fullest and that his wings are just crutches. So his body ditches the wings and off he flies like superman or neo:D
Or C) Dragons (can) have wings, but on gaining the highest level, they improve their flying ability magically, giving them class A.
Could be an option, but why does a dragon stop improving to an ultimate stage, where is no need of wings for flying?
This option seems to me like a not fullfilled version.
Or D. Borys rushed through the metamorphosis process to become The Dragon, and ended up becoming malformed as a result, and never had wings.
D only works if the a dragon doesn't need hiw wings to fly.
The dragon of WJ is Borys and has "flying" movement.
DK says that a 30th level dragon has wings and can fly.
Now let's say we combine option C & D, than Borys would have the ability to improve his flying mavoeuvre class, but without wings he couldn't fly, so he isn't able to improve that, but the WJ entry gives him "flying" movement. Ergo: "D isn't realy an option".
Btw.: Depending on the art of DK p.40 every dragon would have an lizard like appereance. Now every SK is a dragon, right (not counting the discussion about Kalak), that would mean that every SK would have a lizard like appereance, which as far as I know is not the case.
Borys once told Tithian that the SKs chooses their appereance....and that's the way I'm going to stay with:
The appereance for becoming a dragon has no rule.
Gaining abilities, spells/powers, HDs and so on do.
The reason, why many choose the appereance of the dragon, is that the dragon (Borys - the first dragon) is feared by athasians and fear is a good method to controll people.
Originally posted by Bengeldorn
D only works if the a dragon doesn't need hiw wings to fly.
The dragon of WJ is Borys and has "flying" movement.
DK says that a 30th level dragon has wings and can fly.
Now let's say we combine option C & D, than Borys would have the ability to improve his flying mavoeuvre class, but without wings he couldn't fly, so he isn't able to improve that, but the WJ entry gives him "flying" movement. Ergo: "D isn't realy an option".
Actually, the type of flying it gives the Dragon doesn't require wings - it's similar to the type of flying that a Beholder gets. Further, the Prism Pentad books describe Borys as wingless. However, the solution that was given in this very thread was that he could use a low-level polymorph-like spell to make wings appear when he needed them, and they fade when he doesn't.
Btw.: Depending on the art of DK p.40 every dragon would have an lizard like appereance. Now every SK is a dragon, right (not counting the discussion about Kalak), that would mean that every SK would have a lizard like appereance, which as far as I know is not the case.
Borys once told Tithian that the SKs chooses their appereance....and that's the way I'm going to stay with:
The appereance for becoming a dragon has no rule.
Gaining abilities, spells/powers, HDs and so on do.
I'm not purely basing it off of art. Borys was pushed to complete the metamorphosis early, with the help of the other SK's. He is a special case, where the metamorphosis wasn't able to fully manifest due to this "acceleration", which resulted in a few deformities, one of which is the lack of wings. Other Dragons who accelerated the process were Kalid-Ma and Kalak, and both of them were killed for their efforts. Dregoth had been the only one I know of that didn't accelerate the process and skip through metamorphosis stages to get to the full metamorphosis. However, he was killed before he could finish the process by the other SK's who were paranoid that he'd go mad and do what Borys did during his animalistic rampage (Even though Dregoth already had gone through that period and fought it off).
The reason, why many choose the appereance of the dragon, is that the dragon (Borys - the first dragon) is feared by athasians and fear is a good method to controll people.
Actually, many of them don't choose the appearance of the Dragon. Many of them like to hide out as humans, or humans with some unique features.
These are all arguements that were already had in this thread, BTW. Seems like the discussion's becoming circular. At least to me it is.
The art in the DARK SUN boxed set and this volume shows dragons in the middle levels - use these for inspiration.
That's pretty clear, in my opinion. I believe it's the same paragraph that states the Dragon is a fully-formed dragon. Since the description in Dragon Kings states that a fully-formed dragon has wings, we have to conclude that Borys, the Dragon (as opposed to "a" dragon), has wings.
In short, I go back to my earlier argument that, by the time Dragon Kings was written, they (meaning the DS boys) decided that Borys needed wings. If I had to guess, I would say they changed their minds after seeing Brom's Valley of Dust and Fire cover. I mean, seriously: just look at it.
So, officially, Borys has wings. Unofficially, do what you like: Dark Sun, and D&D, for that matter, should always be fun. If Borys having wings is not fun for you, by all means, do not give him wings. After all, I happen to like the "no-wing" theory, but officially, I have to go with wings.