There is a language called "Giant", spoken by Crag giants, and also available to dray, dwarves, half-giants, magera and pterrans.
There is a separate language called Desert Giant, only spoken by desert giants. Another called Beasthead Giant, only for beasthead giants. Another is Plains Giant, only for plains giants.
I believe all these languages should be merged into a single language called Giant.
2. Non-existant languages
I am assuming that Sylvan, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon, Abyssal, Celestial and Infernal do not exist in the Dark Sun setting. However, the elemental languages do exist. I assume Druidic still exists too.
Dropping Sylvan would mean that araneas now only speak Common.
3. Draconic
What about Draconic? It can be spoken as a primary language by Dark Sun acceptable creatures like chimeras, dragonnes and imps, and as a secondary language by githyanki and yuan-ti.
Draconic is normally the native language of Lizardfolk in D&D, but I see that in the Dark Sun world, lizardfolk have their own separate language instead. If Draconic is a DS language, then maybe Lizardfolk should speak it instead of "Lizardfolk". And if it is not, then how do the creatures previously listed communicate? And what about drakes?
4. Inconsistencies
In ToA, Elven is sometimes referred to as "Elf", sometimes as "Elven", and sometimes as "Elvish". These should all be uniformized to "Elven". The same may be true about "Dwarven", although I have not checked.
5. Missing?
ToA mentions Kenku, Meazel, Rhul-Thaun, Urikite, but the corresponding monsters or creatures seem to be missing. Where can I find them?
6. Regional languages
Am I correct in assuming that Saragan is spoken by residents of Saragar, and Kurnish by residents of Kurn (or by creatures called Kurns?) And Giustenal is spoken by inhabitants of New Giustenal?
During my analysis of the languages of Athas, I put together this site: http://www.kisa.ca/darksun.html
It could be useful if you are reviewing the languages and want a "big picture" feel.
Which mean that you will be added to the HUGEST darksun links list of Internet. yeah... I am soooo great. Again. :D
So, whoever takes Giant then specifies if it is the Giant [General] or Giant [Desert] or Giant [Plains] or Giant [Beasthead]. Then have the character make an Int check (or whatever) to see if they can understand them?
Ya know, those Beasthead Giants have to have a pretty confusing given all those different types of heads. The language would have to sound very different depending upon which type of head was talking...
...maybe that's why they're so angry all the time...
...they just want to be understood....
...maybe that's why they're so angry all the time...
...they just want to be understood....
Thats... so... sad...
Originally posted by Sonja
Am I correct in assuming that Saragan is spoken by residents of Saragar, and Kurnish by residents of Kurn (or by creatures called Kurns?) And Giustenal is spoken by inhabitants of New Giustenal?
Yes to all 3 languages ... and there are know Kurn creatures in DS that I know of.
Originally posted by Sonja
2. Non-existant languages
I am assuming that Sylvan, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon, Abyssal, Celestial and Infernal do not exist in the Dark Sun setting. However, the elemental languages do exist. I assume Druidic still exists too.
I would assume that some of these, such as Goblin and Gnome did exist at some point in the past, but are now "dead" languages. PCs might still encounter script of some sort written in these languages..
. Some unofficial musings on this follow. (I should preface this by declaring a bias against the way 3e handles species languages - I see no foolproof reason why all members of the same species should all share an identical language, let alone all members of totally different ones... but maybe that's just me - heh). That said...1. I'd keep the languages somewhat distinct and go with the dialect idea. The crag giant entry should probably note that theirs is a dialect too (especially as they have been separated from other giants for thousands of years). We have no way of knowing if all the giants stem from the same source, so we can't be sure that they share the same language.
2. The languages you mention are most likely nonexistant, although like Beyowulf says, they may well exist here and there in script, scroll or in the memories of the undead. There is an athasian underdark but it's not quite the same as on other worlds so undercommon is an option, depending on your take on the underdark. Druidic probably still exists. Sylvan is almost certainly dead, but there's nothing to stop you from creating an aranea language if you want to use the spidery guys.
3. Afaik, there is no draconic language on athas as there are no dragons (not as we understand them on other worlds). For dragonnes and chimera, I see no reason why they can't have their own rudimentary languages on athas. For drakes you could always have a language called "drake" or give each drake the relevant elemental tongue (paralementals get a choice of two). Creatures who spoke draconic could be given drake as a replacement language if it's a big deal. Githyanki, actually, might well speak true draconic, but a fat lot of use it's going to be to them if they wind up on Athas.
4. Yeah, we definitely need to fix this. 3e style is "elven" so we should go with that.
5. The references to rhul-thaun under the halfling and reggelid entries refer to the rhul-thaun halflings of the Jagged Cliffs. The rhul-thaun halflings more properly belong in a supplement covering the Jagged Cliffs, lifeshaped items etc and so don't appear in ToA as a distinct entry. The references need clarifying, though - a line in each entry should make it clear who these guys are. For kenku and meazels, which mentions are you referring to? Urikite is the regional language for the city of Urik.
6. Ditto for Saragan, Guistenal and Kurnish - like Jihun-Nish says.
That website is a great help as well - it reveals a couple of areas that need fleshing out. Tul'k might be good with elven as a secondary language, bvanen and reggelid probably should have rhul-thaun etc... Nice one.
Originally posted by Grummore
You little sonja!!! Check your email! :D
What? I didn't get any e-mail from you. What do you mean?
Well let me know if any changes to languages are made in future versions of ToA, and I will update my linguistic atlas accordingly.
For now I'll keep Draconic until you tell me it's officially out.
Maybe something can be added in the next version of DS3 to explain the differences in how DS3 languages deviate from the D&D 3.5 PHB rules, i.e. if each species basically has its own language, rather that speaking a common ancestral language like Draconic.
I know these are all just details and I don't intend to appear an.al, but I think it's important to know just who can understand whom, because communication is a vital part of my games (much more so than combat, for example).
I guess most GMs simplify the universe and assume everyone knows the "utopic" Common language, but in the real world, and I think especially in a struggling world like Dark Sun, it wouldn't work that way.
Thanks!
Originally posted by Sonja
What? I didn't get any e-mail from you. What do you mean?
Sonja, It might have to do with you being Canadian. Although I don't know what he would send you.
Check out this forum:
Athasian Quebec people rule!
The following languages are listed for 4 or more species:
1. Common
2. Elven (20 species listed)
3. Gith (14)
4. Thri-Kreen (13)
5. Dwarven (11)
6. Giant* (9)
7. Pterran (8)
7. Tarek (8)
9. Halfling (6)
10. Ssurran (5)
10. Yuan-ti (5)
12. Aarakocra (4)
* This assumes all giants speak the same tongue called Giant. If they do in fact speak 4 different giant languages, then something has to be decided about dray, dwarves, half-giants, magera, pterrans, which are listed in ToA as being able to learn "Giant".
Maybe something can be added in the next version of DS3 to explain the differences in how DS3 languages deviate from the D&D 3.5 PHB rules, i.e. if each species basically has its own language, rather that speaking a common ancestral language like Draconic.
Overcouncil/Senate folks - good idea, no? Or do we stick with the simplified "utpoic" approach? Rather go for diversity myself...
i.e. if each species basically has its own language, rather that speaking a common ancestral language like Draconic.
There's the simple approach too keep as few languages as possible, but that's not very realistic under the circumstances.
Likely that there are many divergent dialects. Any region that has such difficulties with travel between seperate cultural centers would quickly find that their comon root language has degenerated into a dialect, eventually diverging enough to be considered a seperate language. If each of the city-states has a seperate language, and their in closer contact than tribes and such in the wastes, then its more realistic to presume that any single group has at least a moderate difficulty in interacting because of linguistic barriers, even amongst members of similar races. Elves especially would have very different languages due to their seperatist nature. Thri-kreen are the only species I can think of that might be able to overcome the drifting effect of time on their language due to their ancestral memories.
Most races probably had common languages with a few derivations during the Green Age, but that was alo a few thousand years ago. Plenty of time for isolation to create some serious changes in those root languages. Then again, some races may speak a language based on what race they started from (races that were not around during the green age). For example, t'chowmbs and hej-kin in my game speak gnomish (the race I use as their ancestors), ssurran and nikaal speak a common reptillian language with only slight variation (both having derived from lizard men), but both still have some dialect differences.
I know its not everyone's cup of tea, but I like to use language diversity alot. It makes the players focus their characters a little on diplomacy aspects since language and social customs create such extensive barriers, which in turn creates some non combat challenges for the party to overcome.
I really like the idea of having "family" languages, rather than having an individual species language for everyone. Like if both ssurran and nikaal speak a language called Reptilian (and maybe Lizardfolk speak it as their language, too?), or what not.
Any two Dark Sun species that have a common cultural or biological heritage, or that have been alongside each other for some time, should speak a common longuage. Thri-Kreen should be a single language, spoken by both thri and tohr, etc.
This way, when your character learns a language, it's actually useful. There are a handful of species who would speak a given language.
I believe this is the rationale behind the group languages in the 3.5 PHB, e.g. Draconic, Undercommon, etc. It gives a common communications framework to a bunch of different species who are in some way interconnected. Of course, enemies can have a common language too, if they share the same background. I like this philosophy, and I think it would be the best option to rework a list of group languages to create something that makes sense for Dark Sun.
Of course, dialects would exist, but they would not influence anything. So say if the 4 species of giants speak different dialects of Giant, that would not impair communication. It would only give a different flavour to each variety, which would be ignored in game terms. Think of the different variants of English in the world.
Originally posted by Sonja
What? I didn't get any e-mail from you. What do you mean?
Checked back my sent messages, and yes, I send you a mail at :sonja[at]kisa.ca ([at] = @)
But now it'S alllll right, you made a web site, which again will be assimilated. But then again, on another matter, send me a mail, I got something to speak... in private
