There's some products coming up that will give you a better idea on the relationship between wizards and sorcerers.
Oh, and I have a favor, if I may. Your posts thus far have had words like "stupid" in it a lot. I can understand if you don't like something, and that's cool, but watch how you present that. I don't a flame war to start due to some misunderstanding.
Thanks!
Thanks anyway.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The future of Ansalon's sorcerers is not written in stone yet. It's true that the WoHS are concerned over sorcerers. The reason for that is that the sorcerers wield the very power that was the cause for the formation of the Wizards of High Sorcery. Sorcery is Chaos-touched as well.
There's some products coming up that will give you a better idea on the relationship between wizards and sorcerers.
Oh, and I have a favor, if I may. Your posts thus far have had words like "stupid" in it a lot. I can understand if you don't like something, and that's cool, but watch how you present that. I don't a flame war to start due to some misunderstanding.
Thanks!
All of his threads have been flame fests.
Originally posted by NotAgain
All of his threads have been flame fests.
We're past that now. Let's just move on and continue to discuss the relationship of sorcerers and wizards in Krynn.
Originally posted by Slayer of God
Ok its me the slayer of god, am the one who complains alot, sorry about that, just have all that on my mind. Any way! , why is everyone nowdays bend on wizards of high sorcery and primal sorcerers havin a war..!!!!!! agrrrr, stupid!!!, Is it not that Palin Majer fouded the academy!!, is it not taht so many good young people of Ansalon practicing sorcery at the academy who gave ther LIFES fighting the overlords without the help of gods!!!, and so ooo much more. And now all of a suden the gods return, in to a world that tryed to adopt the best they could without them, the wizards of high sorcery get there magic back!!
You are absolutely right, Palin did indeed create the Academy of Sorcery. But just as important as this little fact, one must also remember that it was none other than Takhisis that lead him to the discovery of sorcery. Hmmm... oh yeah, being a good and just minded individual, I certainly would want to see the plots of Takhisis thriving in the world.
whoooo...:sad: ..And now gods, and the great holly wizards see primal sorcerers as a threth!!!! what the hell, thats so hipocritical and aggrr Inquisitory, now the high sorcery calls sorcerers renegades, and everyone wants a war or to force them to join the order .....!!, the designers of dragonlance se they should do it, the games are running campagins in that way, and its just sick. If this is the way dragonlane magic is going, and everyone agreas with it, i hope Dalamar i crussified, and the towers burned to the ground forever, and we never see another hypocritical inquisitor wizard of "high" sorcery.
The Wizards of High Sorcery have always held a very strict code of conduct when magic was concerned. They always had to remember that magic was not ever truly accepted by the common people. Even a White Robed wizard would held with distrust and fear for what he was capable of. During the age of Istar, two of the five towers were destroyed and two were to be handed over to the Kingpriest's people. They have always had to maintain a strict control over those who practiced magic in order to keep the frantic mobs from trying to kill every wizard they came upon. By maintaining the Orders with the amount of control that they do, they can keep a check on the amount of damage control that needs to be dealt when it comes to non-wizards. Now, they are faced with a new group of spellcasters who operate outside of their Order. Do you think that a village is going to really care if a magic user casting spells in their village is a Sorceror or a Robed Wizards? Do you think that they will offer hospitality to the next magic-user who comes into their village? The Order is having to look at the potential harm that having these freelance sorcerors running around and potentially bringing the torches and pitchforks back to their doors.
The world of DragonLance has always been a world of black and white, with very little room for gray. Either you follow the accepted codes of conduct or you don't. The Order of High Sorcery is what is accepted, because it's members have restrictions placed upon them that the mundane community is more comfortable with, than sorcerors that have no restrictions.
Correlanthias
Sorcery (and Mysticism) is clearly much more powerful now that the gods have returned and the ambient magical energy of Krynn is much higher. That only increases the potential for magical mishaps.
Likewise, groups that have a strong loyalty to order or the gods, like the Knights of Solamnia, are likely to look askance at sorcery.
Interesting times.
Originally posted by Slayer of God
the games are running campagins in that way, and its just sick. If this is the way dragonlane magic is going, and everyone agreas with it, i hope Dalamar i crussified, and the towers burned to the ground forever, and we never see another hypocritical inquisitor wizard of "high" sorcery.
No flaming intented, but this is a very angry statement.
Wars don't have to achieve anything. Basically sorcerers and wizards can fight for one hundred years and still not come to a conclusion. So I say, bring on a war. It will add more excitment and roleplaying opportunities, as well as PC deaths...er...ignore that last point.
In any case, i beleave sorcery and mysticisam are things of the ancient times, and what the designer write in the forst place should not be changed, its just not fare. we buy all that stuff, and we as players need to have some reallity in this....aww man am not making much sense sorry....
take care
Sorcery and mysticism are ancient magic that stem back from the very creation of Krynn. These forces could not--at first--be tapped by the original mortal races (ogres, elves, and humans), but the influence of the Graygem changed all of that. Sorcery was the standard magic on Ansalon until its magic caused such a catastrophe that the gods of magic stepped in and changed things forever, founding the Orders of High Sorcery. When the Greygem left Ansalon, the powers of ambient magic slowly faded away.
Things changed in a big way when the Irda cracked open the Graygem and released Chaos into the world. Now the god's energy was so pervasive that it may never completely fade. Takhisis DID NOT grant the power of sorcery and mysticism into the world--but she DID teach sorcery to former wizards in the guise of the Shadow Sorcerer. She needed ambient spellcasters to fuel her plans for the trapped souls.
After the War of Souls, we will now have Wizards and Sorcerers, Clerics and Mystics. How they will all get along remains to be seen. The Orders of High Sorcery will be in no condition to "wage war" for some time, and even if they try to reign in sorcery in some way, it would be a monumental undertaking.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by jechambers
After the War of Souls, we will now have Wizards and Sorcerers, Clerics and Mystics. How they will all get along remains to be seen. The Orders of High Sorcery will be in no condition to "wage war" for some time, and even if they try to reign in sorcery in some way, it would be a monumental undertaking.
Definitely. While there are a few discovering the powers of High Sorcery, and a few who are regaining powers thought lost to them, there are a fair amount of sorcerers around.
The Academy of Sorcery taught many sorcerers, and several others learned at other schools as well. The Legion of Steel made use of sorcerers, as did the Knights of the Thorn.
As it stands now, the WoHS are outnumbered, and they're going to be busy rebuilding their order. Any number of things can happen between now and whenever their order is rebuilt.
Originally posted by jechambers
*SPOILER WARNING FOR FIFTH AGE & WAR OF SOULS NOVELS*
Things changed in a big way when the Irda cracked open the Graygem and released Chaos into the world. Now the god's energy was so pervasive that it may never completely fade.
So would you say that Sorcerer's aren't really tapping into the ambient magic of the world at this time but rather the residue of an incredibly evil god?
Originally posted by Kai Lord
So would you say that Sorcerer's aren't really tapping into the ambient magic of the world at this time but rather the residue of an incredibly evil god?
They're still tapping into ambient magic.
Basically, the power of Chaos has permeated the world. What this does is to boost the power of Wild Sorcery and Mysticism to levels usable by mortals.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
They're still tapping into ambient magic.
Basically, the power of Chaos has permeated the world. What this does is to boost the power of Wild Sorcery and Mysticism to levels usable by mortals.
Right. Essentially, Chaos is a catalyst by which mortals can access ambient magic. Unfortunately it also has the additional side effect of making such access tainted by chaotic influence, which is one of the big reasons you can't multiclass as both an ambient (mystic, bard or sorcerer) and a focused (cleric, druid, wizard, higher-level ranger and paladin) spellcaster. One person can't channel both energies when the ambient power's tainted in that way.
My theory is that dragons, fey, and other non-mortal or immortal beings who use what seems to be sorcery or mysticism are doing so without the need for Chaos' influence as a catalyst. Thus, they've been casting spells the whole time without any need to change how they do it (although the moons aren't any influence over them).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Right. Essentially, Chaos is a catalyst by which mortals can access ambient magic. Unfortunately it also has the additional side effect of making such access tainted by chaotic influence, which is one of the big reasons you can't multiclass as both an ambient (mystic, bard or sorcerer) and a focused (cleric, druid, wizard, higher-level ranger and paladin) spellcaster. One person can't channel both energies when the ambient power's tainted in that way.
Interesting. Kind of raises a bit of a moral quandry for Goldmoon and the Citadel Mystics. They tap into a "neutral" power source (ambient magic) that is only directly accessible because its so heavily tainted by the most evil and destructive god Krynn has ever known. Are you sure mysticism is truly "tainted" and not just merely unlocked and then otherwise untouched by Chaos?
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Are you sure mysticism is truly "tainted" and not just merely unlocked and then otherwise untouched by Chaos?
Yep. Now that the gods have returned, it's a moot point for those people who're bothered by that revelation.
Cheers,
Cam
I would say that the power of Chaos (and not his evil nature itself) is what boosts ambient magic, thereby "unlocking" it.
Even the dragon overlords were frustrated by the limitations on wild magic before (especially Khellendros, who wanted to get back into the planes to search for Kitiara). Sorcery and Mysticism had some chronic restrictions that nobody was able to resolve.
This is why Mina was able to make such a splash with her True Cleric powers. Things like regerating limbs were out of reach for all but the most awesome Mystics. And none of them seemed able to raise the dead. Even Goldmoon was in many ways far more limited in her powers than she had been as a cleric.
That these facts have vanished without a trace in the game rules is annoying for those of us that have been buying novels and games all through this period. But I personally run with the notion that once the gods came back the ambient magical energy levels climbed high enough to support stronger wild magic.
Originally posted by Psionycx
However, those that remember the ill-fated SAGA system will notice that both in-story and in-game, Sorcery and Mysticism are much more powerful now that the gods have returned (and we're back in d20).
...
Even the dragon overlords were frustrated by the limitations on wild magic before (especially Khellendros, who wanted to get back into the planes to search for Kitiara). Sorcery and Mysticism had some chronic restrictions that nobody was able to resolve.
That these facts have vanished without a trace in the game rules is annoying for those of us that have been buying novels and games all through this period. But I personally run with the notion that once the gods came back the ambient magical energy levels climbed high enough to support stronger wild magic.
Well, if you crack open the Age of Mortals book, then you would see that there are rules for the unreliability of ambient magic. It was because Takhisis was having the souls of the dead steal it. It was largely unoticeable at first(caster level -1 from 10-19 SC, must make a Concentration check DC 10+spell level), then got more and more noticeable(-2 caster level from 20-29 SC, DC 15+spell level, then -5 from 30-36 SC, DC 20+spell level, then -10 from 37-38 SC, DC 25+spell level). So you see, magic was indeed weaker in the Age of Mortals.
Originally posted by Psionycx
I did see that. It was a great demonstration of the fact that the people making up the rules hadn't actually played the game or read the books during the time period involved, or were just disinterested in glaring continuity holes.
It does exactly what it sets out to do - which is provide a set of rules which explain the limited and not always reliable circumstances that made ambient magic progressively difficult up until the War of Souls. The kinds of limits thus imposed make a lot of the higher-level cleric spells very hard to maintain or cast during the times where mysticism and sorcery were most prevalent, so if there's a continuity gaff in there somewhere I'm not sure I see it.
Cheers,
Cam
Likewise, Sorcery, being tied directly to elemental forces, could not affect living things directly. Hence, those that practiced it could not cast spells like Detect Thoughts. They also could not directly manipulate raw magical energy or produce affects based on it like Magic Missile.
Apparently, we're being asked to believe that the weakened Takhisis was so thoroughly in control of all of Krynn's dead that she not only had them selectively stealing high-level spells first, but she actually had them stealing specific spells from specific spellcasters!
Sorry, that's a huge credibility gap, and I think that their hope was that few enough people remembered the early Fifth Age stuff that they could slip it past without notice.
Originally posted by Psionycx
Let's start with one that was even referenced in the new DL campaign books but which was then blithely ignored: Mysticism only affects living things or spiritual essences. Not anymore. A mystic can now readily take Domains wholly unassociated with life such as Sun, Fire, etc.
Likewise, Sorcery, being tied directly to elemental forces, could not affect living things directly. Hence, those that practiced it could not cast spells like Detect Thoughts. They also could not directly manipulate raw magical energy or produce affects based on it like Magic Missile.
Whenever one takes something from one rules system to another, you oftentimes lose a little something, but you also gain a little something as well. That’s part of Dragonlance’s problem – it takes elements from not only AD&D, but also from SAGA, and seeks to incorporate them into one whole cohesive rules system with 3rd edition. The key is that when you create rules for a setting, you do so through the “lens” of the game system.
When comparing to the novels, the authors didn’t always keep the themes of sorcery and mysticism, which in turn causes more continuity problems.
What we currently have is what I consider to be a good compromise. You have the PHB sorcerer, which will be familiar to those who are new to DL, although not new to D&D. The mystic is to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard, and falls within that “3e lens”.
For those who want to keep some of the flavor of ambient magic, we have the Academy Sorcerer, who gains benefits to the Realms of Sorcery, and we have the Citadel Mystic. Both of these prestige classes, IMO, do a great job of following the themes of ambient magic viewed through the “3rd edition lens”.
It’s a win-win situation, IMO.
From a setting point of view, ambient magic as we knew it from SAGA comes across as the teachings of Palin Majere and Goldmoon. Now that Takhisis is gone, the true possibilities of ambient magic are endless.
Originally posted by Psionycx
I did see that. It was a great demonstration of the fact that the people making up the rules hadn't actually played the game or read the books during the time period involved, or were just disinterested in glaring continuity holes.
You are making some almost insulting assumptions about those of us who were involved in the design of the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. I had a playtest set of the Dragonlance Fifth Age boxed set before it ever came out so I could run the Steve Miller-written RPGA event at GenCon 1996. Since all I had was a tiny printout of the card fronts, I actually had to hand-make a SAGA card deck out of index cards. I ran SAGA semi-regularly for my own game group and served as the DRAGONLANCE FIFTH AGE gaming coordinator for the RPGA at GenCon 1998. I even still have my embroidered shirt.
I personally owned all of the Fifth Age material before coming to work for Sovereign Press, and we built up a reference library with nearly every Dragonlance product ever written. We consulted all of them, as well as Jean Rabe's novels, as we wrote the book.
Your post seems to be a "great demonstration" of a person who sees something he doesn't like and then makes generalized statements about the people who worked very hard on it. I try not to take most of these comments personally, but sometimes I just can't help it.
We wrote the Dragonlance Campaign Setting for another publisher, Wizards of the Coast. All other products afterwards are produced under license and must be approved by the same. Wizards of the Coast wanted a campaign book that would strongly support the revised Dungeons & Dragons rules, so they did not want significant changes to the sorcerer class from 3.5. In the same vein, they wanted the mystic class to be much like a "divine sorcerer" for similar reasons.
You can't make D&D work like SAGA, or vice versa. SAGA had a free-form magic system, which does not work at all for D&D. (I built spell construction rules for Sovereign Stone, and while fun, they take both time and interpretation and are definitely NOT free-form.) Even with the existing D&D spells, many cross the living/non-living boundaries of Sorcery and Mysticism from the SAGA game material.
I encourage fans of the SAGA system to continue to play it. With emphasis on light rules and strong role-play, all you need is the main book and a fate deck. The source material in some of our products might enhance such a campaign. But for those who want their Dragonlance to come with the rattle of dice instead of the shuffling of cards, we have lots of neat offerings for the d20 System.
Lastly, if you think mechanics of the magic system are the biggest glaring continuity holes in Dragonlance, then we have a major difference in opinion. While perhaps significant in pure rules terms, SAGA-style magic never made much of a dent in the fiction. And our goal is to reflect the WORLD of Dragonlance, not an old rules-set.
Take care!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
When I first found out there was going to be a 3rd Ed Dragonlance one of my first reactions was excitement, I wanted to see what the new magic system would be to handle Sorcery and Mysticism. When I discovered Sorcerers worked the same as in the PH 3.5 I was disappointed but quickly accepted the explanation that it was WoTC doing to better market the world.
I guess is a small price to pay for having 3rd Edition Dragonlance but no one can deny that magic changed drastically. The return of the gods doesn’t work as an explanation for this change either since you could play say during 18sc using the d20 system, which brakes all the rules established for ambient magic. I think some fans where expecting a “in story” explanation with greater detail than simply saying it’s because the gods are back.
Oh, and since a good number of Sorcerers where once students of Palin I don't see a war with the High Sorcery wizards practical, but I would still love to see them go at each other. The hell with it.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
The continuity gap in the magic system makes it impossible to switch from SAGA to d20 without sacrificing storytelling elements.
There was already a "continuity gap" between novels and games, prior to Sovereign Press. Certainly, some of the novels didn't follow the rules of ambient magic set up in the SAGA products.
Sovereign Press is in the position that they have to not only work within the 3rd edition mindset, but they also have to consider the entirety of the setting, including those novels that didn't follow the SAGA rules for ambient magic.
How do you explain that all of sudden the metaphysical rules of Sorcery and Mysticism suddenly changed?
Sorcerers and mystics were drawing upon power that was already being leeched. With the limits already in place on magic, those who were struggling to learn its secrets did not fully understand the true powers of sorcery and mysticism.
Now that the War of Souls is over and magic is no longer being leeched, sorcerers and mystics are now free to discover all the mysteries and potential that ambient magic has to offer.
When I first found out there was going to be a 3rd Ed Dragonlance one of my first reactions was excitement, I wanted to see what the new magic system would be to handle Sorcery and Mysticism. When I discovered Sorcerers worked the same as in the PH 3.5 I was disappointed but quickly accepted the explanation that it was WoTC doing to better market the world.
I'm certain that one of WotC's concerns was to have familiar rules in place so that D&D fans who have never played Dragonlance can play as many of their favorite classes as possible in the setting.
I guess is a small price to pay for having 3rd Edition Dragonlance but no one can deny that magic changed drastically.
A lot of this is due to rules systems, and how some things can be hard to translate from one rules set to another. SAGA's free-form magic would be very difficult to replicate using D&D rules.
Star Wars did good on translating the Force from the WEG system to d20. I was especially happy that Control, Sense, and Alter were kept as part of the rules system. This is one system that translated fairly well.
Then there are systems like L5R. Some elements translated fairly well (i.e. skills). Yet you lost the advantages and disadvantages, the elemental rings, and how magic was based on the elemental rings.
Point is, some game systems translate well, others don't. In this case, SAGA's free-form magic just doesn't translate well into D&D's rigid spellcasting system.
You can replicate some effects (i.e. alternate spell lists for schools/spheres, metamagic for spellshaping), but you probably wouldn't be able to replicate ambient magic using D&D rules.
Oh, and since a good number of Sorcerers where once students of Palin I don't see a war with the High Sorcery wizards practical, but I would still love to see them go at each other. The hell with it.
There are other sorcerers out there though, some on the side of darkness...
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
[b]I completely agree with Psionycx he makes a very good point. The continuity gap in the magic system makes it impossible to switch from SAGA to d20 without sacrificing storytelling elements. How do you explain that all of sudden the metaphysical rules of Sorcery and Mysticism suddenly changed?
I have no problem with the opinion, and actually enjoy good debate.
Though you might think we simply dismissed the notion of reflecting SAGA-style magic outright, in truth we actually explored it to some length, and our playtest/review team actually saw an early draft of the manuscript in which we really tried to reflect how ambient magic worked under the SAGA rules.
There was simply no way to do free-form spellcasting, as we have experience with spell construction mechanics from Sovereign Stone. Instead we tried to split the D&D spell list into the spheres and schools of mysticism and sorcery, paying attention to the rules that mysticism only affects living things and sorcery non-living things. Most of the PHB spells used at least 2 or 3 schools or spheres instead of just one, and quite a few crossed the line between sorcery and mysticism, which meant by a strict interpretation that one would have to be a multi-classed sorcerer/mystic to even have a decent spell selection. Wizards and clerics would have completely outclassed them and the ambient spellcasters would have been reduced to the effectiveness of the DMG NPC classes (warrior, expert, etc.) or even worse.
The options from there meant we either had to create a whole bunch of "replacement" spells, meaning half of the DLCS would have been just spells, or re-define the sorcerer and mystic to work with the existing D&D spell list. At the same time, there was a desire to mesh as closely as possible (without sacrificing too much flavor) with the revised D&D rules. We took an additional stab at it, and the development team at WotC tweaked to improve playability and game balance.
Not everyone is going to like it, especially those who really thought that the philosophy behind sorcery and mysticism was really cool. Just don't think that we tossed it away without a thought, because we spent time and effort trying to find the most satisfying solution.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
[b]There was already a "continuity gap" between novels and games, prior to Sovereign Press. Certainly, some of the novels didn't follow the rules of ambient magic set up in the SAGA products.
Granted, but how official are Dragonlance novels anyway, barring Weis and Hickman’s works of course. Dragonlance has always had a really bad track record recognizing novel material as canon.
You brought up a great example, the Force translated very well into the d20 system. This suggests that a new magic system to simulate Sorcery and Mysticism could have been done if Wotc would have allowed it. Although I have to admit I’m still not happy with any d20 vehicle rules (it’s what keeps me from playing Star Wars d20), everything else in the Star Wars book was great though.
The d20 system is very flexible, especially to fantasy base rules. I can’t comment on Legend of the Five Rings since I don’t know anything about the original setting or system.
My point is though that the explanations for the change in ambient magic as Psionycx described do seem flimsy. It’s very sad that Dragonlance designers seem to have to sacrifice the rule systems to resurrect Dragonlance; First with SAGA (which I recall Mr. Miller commenting he would have prefer a LITE AD&D system and now again for 3.5 edition). It seems unfair since Forgotten Realms gets their “Shadow-Weave” and “Spellfire” and what have you variant magic rules and Eberron seems an affront to establish D&D…. sorry for the rant.
Originally posted by jechambers
I have no problem with the opinion, and actually enjoy good debate.
Just don't think that we tossed it away without a thought, because we spent time and effort trying to find the most satisfying solution.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I don’t doubt you on both counts. But still, giving enough time I’m sure you guys could have come up with a kick-ass magic system, you guys are the creative force behind dragonlance now which means there is nothing you can not do (no preasure)! Hell even if it took it’s own book to describe I’m sure the fans would have waited for it. :D
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
It seems unfair since Forgotten Realms gets their “Shadow-Weave” and “Spellfire” and what have you variant magic rules and Eberron seems an affront to establish D&D…. sorry for the rant.
Realmsian magic works just like all other kinds of D&D magic, even that which is powered by the Shadow Weave. WOTC has no interest in replacing the way D&D magic works for its core campaign worlds. You have to look at independent, unaffiliated d20 companies to produce that kind of thing, and even then most of them fall back on the D&D style of magic with a few minor tweaks.
The core mystic and sorcerer work very well indeed for Dragonlance ambient spellcasters. The roles that those characters played in the Fifth Age materials are still present and intact - all you've lost, if you can call it that, is a rules-driven limitation which even in the SAGA books was discussed as being artificial and potentially wrong (Heroes of Sorcery and Heroes of Hope both talk about hybrid magic, or magic which seems to break the rules the Academy and the Citadel had established, etc). And if you're really keen to maintain that spirit of SAGA schools and spheres, the citadel mystic and academy sorcerer were created specifically to strengthen that view of spellcasters. Try it out.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by jechambers
Though you might think we simply dismissed the notion of reflecting SAGA-style magic outright, in truth we actually explored it to some length, and our playtest/review team actually saw an early draft of the manuscript in which we really tried to reflect how ambient magic worked under the SAGA rules.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Hey...I don't suppose you'd release any of the stuff that didn't make it out of playtesting in a web enhancement...I would be interested in seeing it, and it's not like you're going to use it anymore...are you?
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
My point is though that the explanations for the change in ambient magic as Psionycx described do seem flimsy. It’s very sad that Dragonlance designers seem to have to sacrifice the rule systems to resurrect Dragonlance; First with SAGA (which I recall Mr. Miller commenting he would have prefer a LITE AD&D system and now again for 3.5 edition). It seems unfair since Forgotten Realms gets their “Shadow-Weave” and “Spellfire” and what have you variant magic rules and Eberron seems an affront to establish D&D…. sorry for the rant.
That's a double-edged sword. If Fifth Age DRAGONLANCE had been AD&D 2nd Edition, it's very unlikely that Sorcery and Mysticism would have remotely worked the way it did in the Fifth Age gaming material. The magic rules were designed to work with the no-levels, no-classes, no-dice approach of SAGA. But now that we've restored Dragonlance's ties with D&D, some are upset that the SAGA magic has somehow been ignored.
For those who want to keep playing SAGA, or even 1st Edition AD&D, you can! I actually know of groups who play Dragonlance with the original Sovereign Stone rules set, and others who use RoleMaster or EarthDawn. But in order to keep the Dragonlance game product line alive and well, it needs to work with the most popular RPG on the planet, which is the revised edition of Dungeons & Dragons.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by jechambers
That's a double-edged sword. If Fifth Age DRAGONLANCE had been AD&D 2nd Edition, it's very unlikely that Sorcery and Mysticism would have remotely worked the way it did in the Fifth Age gaming material.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Well yes, if Fifth Age had gone AD&D this whole discussion probably would have never even taken place. Then again maybe a different system would have been established since part of the deal for Dragonlance’s resurrection required the return of magic. But fine, you guys win. I resign myself to your better judgment.
3E & 3.5E are not the same sorcerors as we saw during the age of mortals.
As far as I am concerned mortals have always been able to use wild magic (yes, this flies in the face of the explanation by the officials. Tough). Scions proved this when they taught "wild magic" to the three wild mages. As scions were an actual creature of magic (just as other creature with a natural ability to wield magic, such as the Aurak and Bozak draconians) they understood how to interpret the eddies and flows of the magic as it flowed through their bodies, the "wild mages" did not, but knew where and how to look for the magic itself. Because they could not properly feel the magic they could not control it and so they lost control. The people rose up and hunted these mages. The gods helped these mages by teaching them how to control the magic (hence the laws of magic) and they became the first "Wizards of High Sorcery." As part of these rules the WoHS gave homage to the gods of magic (for saving magic and the privlige of using magic) even if they did not realize they were worshipping the gods. (The gods of magic wouldn't be the first deities to mislead their followers to mask their motives).
Over the next thousands of years there have been few who had the ability to use wild magic. They were labeled renegades by the WoHS and hunted down to be killed or taught proper respect for magic, hence becoming WoHS. Other users of "High Sorcery" were also renegades because they misused "High Sorcery" or went aginast the Towers in other ways. The general populace had no idea of the differences between renegades and so nobody was the wiser.
After the chaos war, "High Sorcery" no longer worked because the rituals (prayers) required to cast High Sorcery no longer found their intended recipient (namely the gods). These spells also no longer tapped into the power that is a natural part of the world because the world was moved and was changed in subtle (but important) ways due to its new location so that "Sorcerors" were not able to use the power that was once available to the three wild mages taught by the scions. Takhisis took the world to this location for precisely this reason because Raistlin royally scared the hell out of her when he assaulted her (in the legends series).
Unfortunately for her to gain enough power to return to the world she created a dam on magic (basically stopping it from flowing freely) so that she could use it when she needed it. This dam created sort of a reserve of magic on Krynn which allowed sorcerors to achieve miraculous, powerful and destructive magical effects (note to remember: not all sorcerors were skilled enough to do this, even though it was possible for them if they increased they ability namely through increasing their ability scores and codes). Each spell cast by a sorceror or mystic drain a portion from this reserve, Takhisis in her current condition could do nothing about it, but was little worried because what was used was basically recyled back into the reserve and would be there when she needed it. When Takhisis was ready she basically destroyed this dam and allowed the power to flow directly to her (thus lowering the magic level of the world, hence the reason for magic starting to fail shortly before the beginning of the War of Souls), while she also drew\sapped magic from the world (including sorcerors and mystics).
Basically she gave them a bottle of soda (magic) that wouldn't run out, and when she wanted it for herself, she took it away from them. Sound like Takhisis, oh yeah!!!!
When the gods returned (and takhisis was slain) this stopped the drain on the sorcerors (by Takhisis), and since the dam was no longer present (hence no reserve of magic) this enabled them to use magic at what would have been the normal level for them at the world's new location in the universe, had it not been for the machinations of Takhisis.
Now to get back on topic. Because of the world's new location in the universe, and the complete and utter absence of the god Chaos, sorcerors are no longer able to achieve the level of power they were capable of during the prior Ages, or during the absence of the gods, and are therfore no longer a threat to magic, by their very existence as they once were. One might say that Takhisis achieved for the Gods of Magic the very thing the wanted. Magic-users are freely accepted again due to their efforts against the dragon overlords and are no longer as feared as they once were, and are not capable of the destruction they once were. Also the world is overflowed with people capable of using magic of both "Wild Sorcery" and "High Sorcery." As such the gods of magic are willing to accept the exisitence of both Sorcerors and Wizards, and both parties get along as well.
As this was caused by Takhisis basically having her pants scared off her butt by Raistlin, and Raistlin essentially being the only Wizard ever accepted by all three gods of magic, one might say that this exact situation, and level of magic, is exactly what the Gods of Magic planned when they answered Raistlin's prayer to them in the novel "The Soulforge" and gave him the magic. According to that passage in the book, Rastlin basically failed his test to continue training, until the gods gave him more magic which caused the words "I, Magus" (hope I got that right) to have such a big reaction later when he wrote them, than they had had earlier.
Side notes: The situation causing a reserve in magic, allowing sorcerors to achieve major magical effects, also allowed Mystics the same level of freedom. With the reserve of, and the drain on, magic gone (dead), they also returned to their proper level of usable magical capability (which they had never really been at).
Mystics also accelerated Takhisis's plans to re-enter the world as she had not counted on mortals being able to discover how to channel the type of magic that Mystics have. With the creation(?) of mystics this created hundreds of more living batteries that she could draw magic from. This is the reason as to why the reign of the Dragon overlords seems to be such a short amount of time in the grand scheme of things.
Paths of Magic
Originally posted by darthsylver
Oh and Baron don't get me started on Star Wars. I very much prefer the way West End Games ran the system with d6 and absolutley no classes. If you wanted to do something with your character all you had to do was earn the xp (character points if I recall correctly) and use it to improve or buy\gain\learn whatever you want. Period.
Right there is the quintessential difference between level and experience base systems. I for one prefer point systems like Silhouette, Tri-Stat, Icon, and Shadowrun. Within a few games you have enough experience to improve some element of your character as oppose to having to wait for levels. On the other hand, I would never use any other system for fantasy base role-playing other than d20. Try running GURPS Fantasy; it’s like jamming a pencil through your eye very slowly. Wizards take an eternity to cast spells, warriors need to be very strong or it takes several actions to get the sword arm out of that swing, etc.
I didn’t like the West End Star Wars because I didn’t like rolling handfuls of d6’s then tallying them up to get a result. It gets daunting with advance characters with Sense 12d and so on.
I like your explanation but I don’t agree that wizard’s formulas are prayers to the gods of magic. I rather keep arcane magic as an eldritch art.
But with all the other stuff that the gods had them set up I just cannot accept it. I mena the organization was exactly like any other religious organization other than the fact that they did not outright "worship" consciously the gods. They hunted down any others who sought to receive the gifts from the gods (renegades) and either expunged them or convinced them to join (almost like converting a heretic to become a true believer). The fact that the magic disappeared with the gods (just as divine magic did) when they left. I mean there is simply too much connection between the WoHS and the gods of magic to simply ignore the possibility that WoHS are in reality clerics of the gods of magic without them actually knowing it.
I mean let's let at the whole spectrum in regards to the DLA sourcebook.
Every god was allowed to have clerics including the gods of Magic.
Here are the gods as presented in the DLA (just the down and dirty).
Paladine - Cleric\Magic-User
Majere - Monk
Kiri-Jolith - Fighter\Cleric
Mishakel - Cleric
Habbakuk - Druid
Branchala - Fighter\Bard
Solinari - White Robe Wizard
Gilean - Cleric\Red Robe Wizard
Sirrion - Fighter\Cleric
Reorx - Fighter\Cleric
Chislev - Druid
Zivilyn - Cleric\Monk
Shinare - Cleric\Fighter
Lunitari - Red Robe Wizard
Takhisis - Cleric\Black Robe Wizard
Sargonnas - Cleric
Morgion - Druid
Chemosh - Cleric\Black Robe Wizard
Zeboim - Druid\Cleric
Hiddukel - Cleric\Black Robe Wizard
Nuitari - Black Robe Wizard
Now here are the restricted classes as listed in the DLA: Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Wizard (2E wizards who had not joined the WoHS)
Gods who are one or more of these classes: Majere, Habbakuk, Branchala, Chislev, Zivilyn, Morgion, Zeboim.
So here is my take on this.
Majere and Zivilyn's followers (clerics) were in fact Monks, who these gods granted power to prior to leaving. While the gods were gone the followers learned to live without the gods and became the Monks we all know and love as described in the 3.5 (3E) PHB. When these two gods returned they found out that their followers (Monk's) no longer needed their guidance to achieve spiritual enlightenment (just as a student leaves his mentor) and so longer give power to the followers, but do give powers to new followers.
Habbakuk, Chislev, Morgion and Zeboim's followers were in fact Druids and these gods gave power to the druids. When the gods left they lost power but never their faith in the world so not all of their supernatural ability disappeared. When these gods returned they were granted spells again, yay.
Branchala's followers were bard with full clerical capability. When the gods left they learned how to access the power of the world just as a sorceror does. When Branchala returned there was no need to restore spells to bards as the bards had learned how to cast spells of their own, hence they do not have healing ability as the DLCS states.
Those gods who have a restricted class and the class of cleric also had followers who were not of a restricted class hence these gods had followers who were of the cleric class: Zivilyn, and Zeboim. All these others did not have clerics who were devoted to them. Majere, Morgion, Chislev, Branchala, and Habbakuk.
Three druids, one monk, and one bard.
Now I know that just because a god is not a cleric that it does not mean that the god cannot grant divine power or have followers, but it just seems that this is the way it was for DL.
Now how does this relate to WoHS, follow along. Just as the gods above (Majere, Morgion, Chislev, Branchala, and Habbakuk) have followers but not the cleric class in their description, they were allowed to have Messengers of the Stars and so were the Gods of magic. If the followers of (Majere, Morgion, Chislev, Branchala, and Habbakuk) were of a class restricted then what could the followers of the Gods of Magic have been but wizards. But there was a class that was specifically designed for Wizards on krynn that just happened to have been set up by the gods of Magic.
Just as Paladins must become Knights of Solamnia.
So followers of the gods of magic (IMO) were clerics. Take a look at the spheres and schools available to Messengers of the Stars who were followers of a god of magic, they are exactly the same as the schools allowed by a WoHS.
The tales of the Lance sourcebook takes this a step further by stating that followers of the gods of magic must be a 5th level WoHS before becoming a Messenger of the Stars (the true beginning of Prestige Classes?).
What I find really funny is this: Every god who has a class with arcane spellcasting ability is listed as either a White, Red, or Black robe except Paladine. He is listed as a Magic-user. Is he a Renegade?
Also that Hiddukel has Cleric and Black Robe Wizard class but no Rogue class. Funny huh?
Note also that Majere has levels in monk that aren't even available in 1st edition AD&D, and Branchala's class of bard doesn't actually work with the 1st edition rules of how bards work. So, I imagine they're just rough indicators, not canon-defining law.
Cheers,
Cam
Monks, Druids, and Bards were restricted becasue the gods of tehse classes had claerics that were basically the same thing. And therefore these classes were not required.