Originally posted by Angal
Is there anyone who could tell me the stats of lord soth or point me to where I could find them? I found some on Dragonlance.nexus but he looks kinda pansy, I might want to use him to TPK my group when they tick me off. But don't tell them ;)
Lord Soth's official stats will be detailed in the War of the Lance sourcebook. Until then, you could come up with a human Knight of the Rose character with the Death Knight of Krynn template. He could easily TPK a group!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I have heard of two different versions of Soth; the one featured in the book Lord Soth that was a big fightery guy, and one where he was a big preisty guy. Which is he?
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
I have heard of two different versions of Soth; the one featured in the book Lord Soth that was a big fightery guy, and one where he was a big preisty guy. Which is he?
I don't know where you read that he was ever a big priesty guy. He's always been an ex-Solamnic Knight. Sure you're not thinking of Yarus or Ariakas or somebody else like that?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Okay, let me rephrase myself: Is he a fighter or a cleric?
He's a fighter, although if he were to be a Rose Knight by the book, so to speak, he'd have cleric levels too. Given that clerics were far and few between in the final days of the Age of Might, I wouldn't know for sure if this were true or not for Soth. At the very least, he was a sort of shining knight paladin-type who chose not to save the world and instead turned on his wife, for which he was damned.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Well, I forget where I read that he was primarily a cleric, but I did somewhere. I wasn't too sure about the book, I liked it, but it showed him as doing the good and noble thing by letting his son die, which I do *NOT* agree with.
I could be wrong, but I thought he killed both his son and wife in a fit of jealous rage (which also set his castle ablaze, and his wife cursed him before being immolated). All the depictions I've ever seen of him, both before and after his death knight transformation depicted him as a knight of the rose and pure (albeit highly skilled) fighter. I don't recall him ever being priestly. While human, his whole family lineage had a shady past, and while he had the air of a high noble and just man, he was always bad at heart. The good pantheon of gods most likely knew this, and IMO would have been very reluctant to grant him their powers. The opportunity to go to Ishtar and stop the King Priest before the Cataclysm was his chance to redeem himself in front of the gods. His dark past, and the fact that he turned his back on his god given quest destroyed his last chance at redemption. His wife's dying curse was the final "nail in his coffin" so to speak.
Originally posted by frostdawn
I could be wrong, but I thought he killed both his son and wife in a fit of jealous rage (which also set his castle ablaze, and his wife cursed him before being immolated). All the depictions I've ever seen of him, both before and after his death knight transformation depicted him as a knight of the rose and pure (albeit highly skilled) fighter. I don't recall him ever being priestly. While human, his whole family lineage had a shady past, and while he had the air of a high noble and just man, he was always bad at heart. The good pantheon of gods most likely knew this, and IMO would have been very reluctant to grant him their powers. The opportunity to go to Ishtar and stop the King Priest before the Cataclysm was his chance to redeem himself in front of the gods. His dark past, and the fact that he turned his back on his god given quest destroyed his last chance at redemption. His wife's dying curse was the final "nail in his coffin" so to speak.
To me, Soth is the classic tragic hero. He WAS a good man, with one central flaw he could not escape. Had he been able to control his passions, he would have been able to avoid temptation or possibly redeem himself at the end. His was a powerful soul in conflict, one that the gods of good and evil struggled to claim. Even as Paladine offered him a chance at redemption, the Dark Queen exploited his weakness, and led him to the path of damnation where he would be hers. And so he was, until the War of Souls...
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I don't know what his stats would be, Well I know the TotL stats are. I would put him as class levels something along the lines as this. Soth had to be at least 17th lvl to be as powerful as he was as a Death Knight.
Fgt 3/ Clr 1/ KoC 3/ KoS 3/ KoR 9
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Depends on which wife you are talking about Dragontooth. Because if you are talking about his first wife and child, then yes...he brutally killed them both.....hacked them to tiny little chunks that were unrecognizable as human beings (not that his first child ever was). He had what was left of the bodies burned and tried to cover it up, but was foiled and went on the run.
Yea but that wife didn't curse him though. His elf wife is the one that cursed him.
Originally posted by lugnut71
Actually didn't he have a servent strangle his first wife. I guess it depends on what you consider to be canon. For instance I like Knight of the Black Roses so I consider that canon.
Well, the book Lord Soth, which was actually a DL book, not a Ravenloft one, Soth did the deed himself, the moment he saw the child she bore him. The child was cursed to be as monstrous as the deeds Soth had done.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Well, the book Lord Soth, which was actually a DL book, not a Ravenloft one, Soth did the deed himself, the moment he saw the child she bore him. The child was cursed to be as monstrous as the deeds Soth had done.
The novel LORD SOTH by Edo van Belkom does not match well with my personal view of the death knight. It portrays him as quite dark and evil from the start, not the tragic hero that I see him. His personal tale in TEST OF THE TWINS defines my view of Soth, which isn't matched by the novel. (For one example, he hacks up the female elven clerics after they make insinuations about his new wife's infidelity!) I prefer to think that Soth had his first wife killed, rather than take drastic violent action himself.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by lugnut71
Actually didn't he have a servent strangle his first wife. I guess it depends on what you consider to be canon. For instance I like Knight of the Black Roses so I consider that canon.
I like the novel Knight of the Black Rose's take on Soth's tale better myself. Soth is much more tragic a figure if he was true and good before his fall rather then him being some borderline evil man already.
Ok, it isn't on dragonlance setting, but gives a hint that he has at least 15 char levels and the Death knight Template.
Those "lord soth DL book" is a ......
Read the Knight of the Black rose, there u will see the True Soth.
Originally posted by The Dark One
Well, his stats in the Ravenloft Gazetter IV, where was only mentioned as The Black rose, he was a char with 9 paladin lvls + 6 black guard lvls + death knight template.
That's a little uninspiring.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by The Dark One
Those "lord soth DL book" is a ......
Read the Knight of the Black rose, there u will see the True Soth.
Well...since Lord Soth is a DL character...I think Ill just go on believing that the true Soth is in DL books.
The novel LORD SOTH by Edo van Belkom does not match well with my personal view of the death knight. It portrays him as quite dark and evil from the start, not the tragic hero that I see him. His personal tale in TEST OF THE TWINS defines my view of Soth, which isn't matched by the novel. (For one example, he hacks up the female elven clerics after they make insinuations about his new wife's infidelity!) I prefer to think that Soth had his first wife killed, rather than take drastic violent action himself.
Well.....I can see that too Jamie. But I dont see him as dark and evil from the start. I see him as tarnished yes, basically a flawed man. No real knight of the rose true, but he isnt dark and evil from the beginning. Through that book though I definitely see him as the man who was controlled and devoured by his passions. It pretty closely matches my view of him. And its a pretty darn good read too ;) I just tend to think that if Soth was the type to be controlled by his passions, then he could be the type to murder his own wife and child as well......remember....at the time he did it he was also romantically involved with Isolde in secret. So he was already ruled by his passions.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Well.....I can see that too Jamie. But I dont see him as dark and evil from the start. I see him as tarnished yes, basically a flawed man. No real knight of the rose true, but he isnt dark and evil from the beginning. Through that book though I definitely see him as the man who was controlled and devoured by his passions. It pretty closely matches my view of him. And its a pretty darn good read too ;) I just tend to think that if Soth was the type to be controlled by his passions, then he could be the type to murder his own wife and child as well......remember....at the time he did it he was also romantically involved with Isolde in secret. So he was already ruled by his passions.
I guess my problem with the novel version of Soth's life is that--to me--Soth turning his back on his wife and newborn son was the ultimate act that condemned him. If he physically murdered his first wife it just doesn't seem a climactic act of evil--just another evil act in a life full of evil acts.
I'm certainly not trying to knock the novel or its fans. But certain parts of it don't jive with the view of Soth that I've personally carried with me for the better part of two decades.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Originally posted by The Dark One
Well, his stats in the Ravenloft Gazetter IV, where was only mentioned as The Black rose, he was a char with 9 paladin lvls + 6 black guard lvls + death knight template.
Ok, it isn't on dragonlance setting, but gives a hint that he has at least 15 char levels and the Death knight Template.
Those "lord soth DL book" is a ......
Read the Knight of the Black rose, there u will see the True Soth.
Lord Soth Needs to be at least a 17th lvl char before he can even take the Death Knight template due to the powers he is shown to have in the Legend Series. Thats from the DLCS pages 212 - 214.
I gave an example earlier of what Soth Lvl would look like, and probably fitting for him.
Originally posted by Angal
What lvl party you think Lord soth could take out, I have a 6 lvl 8's and there very cocky, and The minos player thinks he could just trip soth and beat him down. Its my view that Lord soth is not just any old death knight but a Uber one, but the thing is death knighs have crap hp
Lord Soth min. CR would 22.
and if you went by my example of 3 Fgt/ 1 Clr/ 3 KoC/ 3 KoS/ 9 KoR
19th lvl char. his CR would be 24
Your level 8th party wouldn't last 3 rounds against Soth. Most would die the 1st round, and or run from him due to his Fear aura, and the Power Word he would use. The smart ones would throw down there weapons, and beg him to spare them their lives.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Well, in Chronicles or Legends(can't remember which one), Soth specifically states that he abandoned his wife. He didn't kill them.
He did abandon his second wife...killed the first/had the first killed.
"It all made sense to him now. He had suffered for the sins of his father, and instead of accepting his fate and rising above it, he had only compounded his father's sins by committing even more ghastly ones of his own. His sins were far worse than anything his father had done. If he saved Peredur now from the flames, it would only be to give him a life of misery and shame as he would be destined to suffer for the sins of his father, and those of his father's father. And as he suffered, he would commit sins of his own, worse than Soth's.
It was a never ending cycle.
But not if Soth chose to break it. He could end the cycle.
He took a step back."
So you see? It makes it sound like it was a great thing he did right there. Not my version of Soth.
Originally posted by Dragontooth
Lord Soth min. CR would 22.
and if you went by my example of 3 Fgt/ 1 Clr/ 3 KoC/ 3 KoS/ 9 KoR
19th lvl char. his CR would be 24
Personally, I don't think he would have been that high level of Rose Knight. In the book, he had just gained Rose Knighthood, and I don't think he did 9 high levels before the end of the book...
Originally posted by The Dark One
Those "lord soth DL book" is a ......
Read the Knight of the Black rose, there u will see the True Soth.
Eh... opinions vary. I'm a big fan of Ravenloft, but I just HATED Lord Soth being put there. I tend to ignore anything related to Ravenloft whenever Lord Soth is mentioned (ie. He does NOT have Bigby's hand spells as a special ability.)
Originally posted by Angal
Its my view that Lord soth is not just any old death knight but a Uber one.
Neither do I feel that he has to be anything like an "uber-deathknight" His stats in 1st and 2nd ed were tough enough, but he was still pretty much a standard Death Knight. There's nothing that says he's any different.
Generally, I agree with Jamie Chambers view. When it comes to Lord Soth I refer to Chronicles and Legends, plus the sourcebooks, I guess.
Originally posted by raistlinrox
Personally, I don't think he would have been that high level of Rose Knight. In the book, he had just gained Rose Knighthood, and I don't think he did 9 high levels before the end of the book...
He gained Knight of the Rose early in the book. He had a few adventures as well after becoming a Knight of the Rose. And he was given the task of stopping the Cataclysm that in itself would of made him a near epic character!!
According to the DLCS a Death Knight with at least 17 hit dice can use Power Word Kill. And we all agree that in legends Soth can use Power Word Kill right?
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Like I said, in the book Lord Soth, it made it seem like the best thing to do to let his child(from Isolde) die.
{snip quoted passage}
Once again, it's all about opinions and perspectives here, but to me it was anger and retribution that made Soth turn away, not twisted logic that letting his son die was the right thing to do.
As for his stats--Soth can most definitely use POWER WORD KILL.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Neither KoBR neither SoBR, make him use this spell. He uses mainly : wall of ice (at time a inate dk spell, look at MM 2ed.), fireball, power word kill, and was imune to fire. On the Campaign Setting he was a "ordinary" death knight (if u can say a death knight is ordinary) with some especial powers.
Try to read Knight of The black Rose, there u will see that, ever being a Ravenloft Product, James Lowder made a GREAT job on telling Soth Background, and this should be cannon, and not a "lord Soth" that has come 1996 (5 years after Knight of The Black Rose), speaking over a Soth that doesn't exist.
Well, returning to the question, give him at least 17 hit dice them, since it is the min. HD for power word kill.
And as far as the Ravenloft Soth novels, they were good. But they most certainly are not what the "true Soth", as you so eloquently put it earlier, is all about. But boy I am glad that Soth died in Vanished Moon and isnt being milked like a cash cow by Ravenloft anymore.
And as far as his hit dice, I agree...give him what he needs to be the character he was from the novels....but what am I saying here...SP has done every other character justice so far....Im not worried at all.
Ah well. He's dead now.
But Dragonlance isn't getting back Vlad Drakov!
(For those not in the know, Vlad Drakov is the other Krynnish darklord - a mercenary from Taladas.)
EDIT: Soth in Ravenloft didn't have any of the Bigby effects. His stats were identical to his stats in Dragonlance. Only exception was he would reform in Nedragaard Keep if killed.
Originally posted by The Dark One
From where u got that Soth has Bigby on Ravenloft?
...
Try to read Knight of The black Rose, there u will see that, ever being a Ravenloft Product, James Lowder made a GREAT job on telling Soth Background, and this should be cannon, and not a "lord Soth" that has come 1996 (5 years after Knight of The Black Rose), speaking over a Soth that doesn't exist.
Well, returning to the question, give him at least 17 hit dice them, since it is the min. HD for power word kill.
I have read it. I wasn't all that impressed. James Lowder's done better. It just came across to me as a "gimmick" story (much along the lines of "Star Trek: Generations".) At least it was an improvement on "Vampire of the Mists." You reread it though, if you missed the "Bigby's Hand" reference. ;)
Well, returning to the question, give him at least 17 hit dice them, since it is the min. HD for power word kill.
Makes sense to me. I'm looking forward to seeing his stats in "War of the Lance." Should be fun.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
And no, in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting he was NOT a normal death knight. He was given uber abilities in it, for example his fireball damage was doubled
Yeah, in the Ravenloft Setting. It could be argued that those were "gifts" he got upon becoming the darklord of Sithicus. His stats in DL products were pretty standard. I'm not sure about the fireball though, "Domains of Dread" lists Soth's as 20HD, which iirc is also standard, not double, for 1st and 2nd ed. Death Knights. I could be wrong though, since I have neither the "Fiend Folio" nor the DL Monstrous Compendium on hand to verify.
... they most certainly are not what the "true Soth", as you so eloquently put it earlier, is all about. But boy I am glad that Soth died in Vanished Moon and isnt being milked like a cash cow by Ravenloft anymore.
Darn right!!! Agreed!:D
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
But Dragonlance isn't getting back Vlad Drakov!
That's cool. Dragonlance never really "had" him to begin with. He was created for Ravenloft anyway.
Originally posted by Orodruin
Yeah, in the Ravenloft Setting. It could be argued that those were "gifts" he got upon becoming the darklord of Sithicus. His stats in DL products were pretty standard. I'm not sure about the fireball though, "Domains of Dread" lists Soth's as 20HD, which iirc is also standard, not double, for 1st and 2nd ed. Death Knights. I could be wrong though, since I have neither the "Fiend Folio" nor the DL Monstrous Compendium on hand to verify.
Well.....there was one source and darn if I could remember what it was, but it did give him a 40hit die fireball....I dont know if this was a once per day ability or not, but there was somewhere where he got that. Thats the doubling Im talking about.
Originally posted by Orodruin
That's cool. Dragonlance never really "had" him to begin with. He was created for Ravenloft anyway.
Yup...They just made Drakov for RL, then said that he came from Krynn, so that they could say "Look, the dork (ahem) Dark Powers had stolen people from all over the multiverse. Vlad is about asDL flavored as Drizzt. Seriously though...Vlad was an awesoem character, and I actually could see him as having been Krynnish. But I really think that when the Ravenloft setting was being published TSR was thinking...ok, we'll steal Soth away from DL and use him for the one recognizable character from another world. They needed to steal somebody. I guess the FR characters were just not deep and dark enough to warrant being taken.
i read the book 4 times and don't got the impression he had bigby... but ok, he is also gone, and i'm happy with that too (now i can use him as a Dreadpossibility).
Well if u mean that Lord Soth isn't this from the Knight of The Black rose, but the one on Lord Soth DL book, well, them i prefer the lord soth of ravenloft, since he was a tragic doomed hero, not a butcher in a shinny armor. My impression only is that on Ravenloft Soth was one of the main npc's, on dragonlance was he "only" another bad guy. So he wasn't cash milked away from dragonlance -- but well it's a matter of opinion.
the 2 ed. Death knight had _ Monster Manual:
- ice wall - at will (yeh, wasn't wall of ice)
- power word, any - 1 time/day
- a 20Dice Fireball - 1x/day
- power over undead
- dispel magic - 2x day
- detect magic/invisibility - at will
- simbol - 1x /day
- 5 foot aura of fear
- 75% magic resistance (score 11 or lower reflected the spell).
In the Ravenloft 2 ed Lord Soth got p.84 Domains'n Denizens:
- All normal death knight powers (respect the law of altered magic in Ravenloft);
-Same stats that a ordinary death knight;
- No bigby spell (been based on Knight he should have bigby if this impression were true);
- Close domain border(dark gift)
- Weather / climate controll (dark gift)
So saying that he was a "uber" death knight on Ravenloft isn't true, he was only another poor soul in his cage, with NO super powers.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
But I really think that when the Ravenloft setting was being published TSR was thinking...ok, we'll steal Soth away from DL and use him for the one recognizable character from another world. They needed to steal somebody. I guess the FR characters were just not deep and dark enough to warrant being taken.
Actually, the way I've heard it is that when the RL setting was being drawn up, the designers went around to the people in charge of the other TSR settings at the time (FR, DL, GH) and asked if they had any characters to create for or shift over to RL to help tie the new setting into the other ones. (This was during the days when the cross-setting concept was big at TSR, with the upcoming/recent launch of SPELLJAMMER, and it was probably a way for them to hedge their bets with RAVENLOFT.) FR gave them Gondegal, a character who I believe had only been referenced in backstory and had been written up as 'disappearing'; DL gave them Soth, who _may_ have already been removed from the setting anyway in the "Dargaard Keep" module in DL16. (Not having a copy for myself, I can't verify this.)
Matthew L. Martin, Dragonlance Apostate
Ravenloft got to keep Gondegal too. Interesting.
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
DL gave them Soth, who _may_ have already been removed from the setting anyway in the "Dargaard Keep" module in DL16. (Not having a copy for myself, I can't verify this.)
The story I heard was Soth was stolen from DL without consent from either Weis or Hickman. But TSR gave the go ahead for RL to use Soth. But that is a different story all together.
if Soth had 20 HD fireball then he would have 20 HD in Class Levels.
Originally posted by Dragontooth
The story I heard was Soth was stolen from DL without consent from either Weis or Hickman. But TSR gave the go ahead for RL to use Soth. But that is a different story all together.
Yes, but Weis & Hickman had left TSR three years before.
Matthew L. Martin
Let's get this straight. Soth was a character owned by TSR/Wizards of the Coast. They didn't need to get Weis or Hickman's possession to use him in another setting.
You may think its unfair, but that's the price you pay for writing in a shared world.
Although James Lowder gives a very different account of the story behind Soth's move to Ravenloft.