I'd love to see concept ideas _and_ writeups for Mystara specific PrCs. Anyone want to share?
http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mystara has rules for Darokin Merchants, Merchant Princes and Odins Ravens.
I am currently working on:
Radiance Mage
Glantri Craftsmage
Other ideas:
Elven Treekeeper
Hin Master
Dwarven Forgekeeper
Templar (OD&D Paladin)
Avenger
Knight
Defender
Knight of the Griffon
Knights of the Air
Storm Soldiers
Forrester
Rake
Wise Women (Northern Reaches)
Berserker
Gladiator
Other ideas?
Havard, feeling creative...
As often as I run in Glantri, for me, the Secret Crafts would be big on the list. In my last campaign I pretty much ported them over directly from 2e (percentile rolls, xp spent, etc), and things were rather imbalanced. Especially the @#$%$ dracologist. I didn't want them to be prestige classes at first, to give the characters more options. But now it strikes me as the sort of thing that prestige classes were really intended for.
Other random ideas:
Odin's Ravens (Northern Reaches, I think someone mentioned a class for them in another thread. Or I could be confused)
Dervish (the desert druid types from Ylarum)
Ethengarian Horse Warrior (all the horseback classes I've seen have been knight types, I don't know of any horse archer classes out there)
Mystic of the Night Spider (obviously Thothian, built upon monk. Could mix old mystic abilities with necromantic or outer planar abilities at higher levels. Non-good only, of course).
Serpent's Eye (since one of my old PCs is a member
)Sindi Yogi (I recall there being different schools of these, and that some weren't as martial arts oriented, so maybe we could have different varieties)
That's all off the top of my head, of course. I think several of these already have versions posted to the Vaults. But a little variety never hurt.
As for other ideas, I have always struggled with pirates. To be competitive with armoured characters they need really good ability scores. One thing I do is give feats that help with defence but they still are not very potent opponents.
So, what I'd like to ask you guys is do you think that a new class for "Seaman" (or whatever) would be good to help give these characters an edge when at sea *OR* would a PrC be better. One thing is that I'd like to be able to have it available at first level.
Maybe I'm just missing something. Thoughts/help?
Edit: Another possible PrC, Darokin Diplomatic Corps.
As for other ideas, I have always struggled with pirates. To be competitive with armoured characters they need really good ability scores. One thing I do is give feats that help with defence but they still are not very potent opponents.
In my Freeport campaign, centered around Pirate type characters, I am using the Defense bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana/Star Wars in which characters get a bonus to AC based on level which is not stackable with armor. This helps with creating more competent light armor warriors. An another alternative is the Swashbucker from Complete Warrior, which I believe also gets an AC bonus based on level...
Havard
I've noticed a few more emails generated from the site than usual.
With the recent traffic, I've been wondering what people think of my conversions for 3e - specifically the races and classes I've converted over. I'm thinking of reworking a few of them.
http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mystara
Here's my thoughts on various things:
The Raven actually seems a bit underpowered, I think it could perhaps use another class ability or 4 skill points per level instead of 2. The 4th-level spell requirement is going to mean that only high-level paladins can qualify, though of course that might've been your intent.
Conversely, I think the Merchant Prince class is overpowered because of the BAB. There's very few classes that grant both full arcane casting ability and a BAB above the wizard's. I really can't think of anything off the top of my head- compare this to something like the Arcane Trickster. Granted, the class abilities are much less than the arcane trickster, so maybe that balances things out. You might consider giving the Merchant Prince spell progression like the Darokin Merchant, since Minrothad had a lot of unique spells for them to use. The Minrothad elves always struck me as being less wizardly than those of Alfheim.
Speaking of the Darokin Merchant, it looked just right to me. ;) I don't really have any notes on the classes, but I did see that you made Spell Combination a feat, which is what I did for my Glantri PCs. A couple of small differences- I specified that they couldn't use the feat to get more spells at their highest level than they could normally cast. So a 5th level wizard would be still be limited to 1 3rd level spell plus bonus slots. I can't remember if this is a house rule I ported over or if it worked that way in the original Gaz.
Also, I noticed that you specified unused slots were lost. I allowed them to be saved- there's an obscure rule in 3rd ed (really only specified in the FAQ) that casters who prepare can leave slots open to fill later, provided they take another ten minutes (or however long it was) to prepare the new spells. At any rate, I let my PCs do this with Spell Combination too, since I didn't see it as a big deal. Either way, I just thought I'd mention it.
Overall, nice work. I like the site!
I am surprised though that you added the fact that Mystaran elves dont trance, but sleep. Personally, I though the trance idea was excellent!
For the subraces though, I might be more willing to introduce new rules. The Water Elves of Mystara have some extra abilities that you might want to include and I would give the Shadow Elves Darkvision instead of Low-light vision...
Havard
Regarding the Raven PrC:
Yes. I agree that it is a little underpowered - I just have not thought of another ability to put in there yet.
Regarding the Merchant Prince PrC:
Again, I am inclined to agree. I will probably give the class wizard BAB progression to scale it back a bit.
Regarding elves and sleep:
The Alfheim Gazetteer specifically mentions elves sleeping - so that is why I made the change. I try to strike a balance between preserving as much of the original background material as possible without drastically reworking the new rules. This change was minor but goes a long way to preserving continuity from past editions of the campaign.
Regarding the subraces:
I have not yet converted the subraces over, which is why none of the subrace entries have any racial traits listed, only a footnote paragraph or two mentioning that such creatures are rumored to exist. Since none of my players are currently interested in the subraces, I can safely ignore them for the moment, but intend on fully describing them as they are introduced into the campaign. Indeed, as suggested, the Shadow Elves will have darkvision...
Regarding Spell Combination:
I plan on 'fixing' the feat by specifying that under no circumstances can the caster increase the number of slots at any level beyond 150% (rounded down) of what he or she can normally cast without the feat. Ie: if she can normally cast 2 fifth level spells, the most Spell Combination would allow would be 3 fifth level spells, regardless of the number of lower-level spell slots sacrificed to raise her 5th level limit. I also may put up a more specific Metamagic Feat prerequisite.
Thanks again for the feedback, and keep it coming!
Many others have been introducing new rules to make the races more like their OD&D equivalents, like all elves having some spellcasting ability etc. Personally, I dont see the big need for that.
I've seen how some people have gone heavy on the rules changes to create a strict adherence to the OD&D material. I think I have to agree with katana's approach:
This change was minor but goes a long way to preserving continuity from past editions of the campaign.
I too went with the sleep option for elves, but I could easily see myself saying they trance, but for 8 hours. I mean trance is a cool idea but why apply it to such a long-lived and calm race as the elves; I could see them wanting more sleep.
As for the elves being spellcasters *and* fighters in OD&D, I simply rule that their favoured classes are wizard *and* ranger. Seems more "elf-like" to me.
I've seen how some people have gone heavy on the rules changes to create a strict adherence to the OD&D material.
I've noticed that, too. If you're going to that much trouble to bend 3.x to match the OD&D rules, why not just play with OD&D rules?
In my opinion, many of the conventions that are generally accepted as canon for Mystara are actually just a reflection of the OD&D game system, not the setting itself. Take half-elves for example. Half-elves were not available in OD&D, therefore, they were not available in Mystara under that rules set (see the Alfheim Gazetteer). Once the setting was moved to AD&D (for good or for ill) then half-elves were suddenly a valid choice for PC race.
In my opinion, its far easier to adapt the setting to 3.x than it is to rewrite 3.x to match OD&D.
I would caution against making too many prestige classes...I mean, I love them and the concept, really, but I think there is a limit for them....What need is there for one for the DCC for example? I am not sure. It should be prestigious to join one, not just be one in a big crowd.
I actually see PrC as a way to "cheat" and get more abilities/powers than a regular class would permit and as it stands right now I don't even permit them IMC.
But, OTOH, there's something about a Mystara specific PrC class that endears me to the idea and so I am currently looking over an "Odin's Raven" PrC that I found on tjedge1's website for a PC that certainly fits the bill. I think that the list that people have put forth is just a suggestion list to be considered and pruned. I know that all of them won't appear in my campaigns, but it also is dependent on the desires of my players.
I mean, the exact list of PrC will vary amongst different campaigns I'm sure. Pick the ones that appeal to your group and use them. So yes, there should be a limit I guess; it'll just be different for different people.
Btw, the DDC suggestion was mine
. I just put it out there in case it might interest someone. (I may by fairly new here but it's good to see a constant appearance of other "new" people too!)http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mystara/raven.html
Unless tjedge has a similar PrC on another site...
Um... The Raven PrC is from my website.
http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mystara/raven.html
Unless tjedge has a similar PrC on another site...
Sorry!! I Apologize katana_one!! Lacking sleep and all...
It was from katana_one's site, and a good one at that. Check it out people!
I actually see PrC as a way to "cheat" and get more abilities/powers than a regular class would permit and as it stands right now I don't even permit them IMC.
There is a reason why PrCs are optional. I didnt allow them in my previous campaigns either, but I will in this one. However, I make sure that every PrC fits with the setting. PrCs should represent special roles in the cultures of the setting. DDC members are the best Diplomats of Mystara. If a player IMC decides to join the DDC and works hard to fill the requirements of such a PrC, I have no problems with granting the player approprate bonuses for that. The same goes with other PrCs.
I was looking through various books the other night and realized that alot of PrCs from other settings can be tweaked a little and used with Mystara. For instance, I decided that the Order of the Griffon from Karameikos use the same rules as the Complete Warrior version of the Purple Dragon Knight.
I also decided that the Red Wizards and Knights of Thay have their equivalents in Denagoth. Sure this is an extrapolation of the setting, but since Denagoth hasnt been fully developed yet, I decided that it can be a bit like Thay from the Forgotten Realms. The Red Wizards there are known as the Shadow Sorceres, an order formed by the Shadow Lord himself... Heck, If I spent money on those books, I might aswell use them, right? Other, similar ideas?
Havard
But when I looked at what had been done for them online, I wasnt satisfied...the ones I found, on Pandius, were seriously lacking...almost no class skills, no casting level increase? I doubt many, if any, wizards would seriously contemplate this class...
And having it 10 levels? I am not sure about that either.
The most suitable for Prestige Classes in any Mystara product must be the Seven Secret Crafts of Glantri.
I agree that these should be done. Originally I felt that all prestige classes should have 10 levels, but I guess I also have reverted from this. Secret Crafts mages have 5 circles, so 5 levels would work. I think each craft should be fashioned after the same model, but with different abilities for each craft, obviously. What do you think?
I did a version of the Radience Mage (Users of the Radience), now also available on the Vaults, but that one also needs revision. I am open to suggestions.
Havard
One possibility is to control advancement in the class, so one could only get a new level at the appropriate times (ie levels 5, 7, 10, 14 or 15, 18 or 20). Of course, this would be unusual for a "standard" prestige class, but it could be done. If we're going this route, it might be just as easy to come up with feat chains, each feat having specific requirements, such as was done with Legacies in the recent Dragon article. The Legacies aren't as powerful as the circle abilities (or at least the new Legacies aren't), so we'd probably have to scale down some of the craft abilities as well. I can say from first-hand experience that we definately don't want to give the PCs a full-powered dragon breath ability
Originally posted by Surcus
The most suitable for Prestige Classes in any Mystara product must be the Seven Secret Crafts of Glantri.
But when I looked at what had been done for them online, I wasnt satisfied...the ones I found, on Pandius, were seriously lacking...almost no class skills, no casting level increase? I doubt many, if any, wizards would seriously contemplate this class...
And having it 10 levels? I am not sure about that either.
casting level increase? what do you mean there where is that in secret crafts
class skills? again what are you talking about.
all the new circles on the Vaults are created based on the circles rules presented in GAZ3 or G:KoM, they aren't prestige classes.
Originally posted by Byron's Ghost
In general, I agree with the prestige class idea, but I'm not sure about the number of levels. Some of the higher circle abilities are quite powerful, and a five-level spread is going to mean fairly rapid advancement. There'd have to be high entrance requirements for the class, so that one couldn't enter until 10th level or so, and then 5th circle would still be available before it was in either OD&D or 2e (assuming one defeats the High Master, of course. Personally, I've never had a PC in my games make the attempt).
One possibility is to control advancement in the class, so one could only get a new level at the appropriate times (ie levels 5, 7, 10, 14 or 15, 18 or 20). Of course, this would be unusual for a "standard" prestige class, but it could be done. If we're going this route, it might be just as easy to come up with feat chains, each feat having specific requirements, such as was done with Legacies in the recent Dragon article. The Legacies aren't as powerful as the circle abilities (or at least the new Legacies aren't), so we'd probably have to scale down some of the craft abilities as well. I can say from first-hand experience that we definately don't want to give the PCs a full-powered dragon breath ability
having the circles as a normal 10 level presitge class would be the way to go with the skills staggered throughout the levels. Work would have to be done to equate power levels but I would suggest the 5th circle ability to be only attainable by 1 individual, the High Master, who must be 10th level in the prestige class and then fight for it from the current high master, like the rules currently stand for classes
By the way, all those seven need perhaps not be redone from scratch...I have good experiences with using the elemental savant class from tome and blood for the elemental class....perhaps that one can serve as a model for the others as well?
Originally posted by Surcus
I was talking about the Seven Secret Crafts of Glantri as prestige classes by Aleksei Andrivski.
oh oops, forgot about that article
Looking for input and I'll post whatever I come up with in the end for anyone that might be interested.
Originally posted by havard
What ideas do people have for PrCs for Mystara?
I'd love to see concept ideas _and_ writeups for Mystara specific PrCs. Anyone want to share?
I have been thinking for some time now about a Northern Reaches Rune Caster Prestige Class based on the old Rune system i the Norhtern Reaches gazetteer and the Giantkin acessory (2e A&D) but so far I haven't been able to come up with something balanced.
Feel free to expand on this idea if you want to :D
JesperI have been thinking for some time now about a Northern Reaches Rune Caster Prestige Class based on the old Rune system i the Norhtern Reaches gazetteer and the Giantkin acessory (2e A&D) but so far I haven't been able to come up with something balanced.
Have you seen the Runecaster prestige class from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (or, more recently, the Player's Guide to Faerun)? I've always figured that would fit the bill pretty well.
BTW, I came up with a list of possible Mystaran Prestige Classes the other day. Here's what I have so far:
Prestige Class Source Footnote
Agent of the DDC Gaz11
Alchemist Gaz3
Blue Eel Gaz9
Bratak (?) Gaz12 1
Brotherhood of the Grey Lady DotE
Brother of the Radiance Gaz3
Clan Blackflame Keeper Cyclopedia 2
Clan Forgekeeper Cyclopedia 2
Clan Treekeeper Cyclopedia 2
Cryptologist Gaz3
Darokin Guild Merchant Gaz11 3
Death Master Gaz3
Dracologist Gaz3
Elementalist Gaz3
Eye of Krondar Gaz12
Eye of the Serpent Gaz13 4
Fist of Khan Gaz3
Hattian Storm Soldier DotE
Hin Master Gaz8
Keshak Horsewarrior Gaz12
Knight of the Air DotE 5
Magian Fire-Worshipper Gaz2
Merchant-Prince Gaz9
Minion of Atzanteotl Gaz10 6
Order of the Arrow Gaz2 7
Order of the Griffon Gaz1
Order of the Lance Gaz2 7
Order of the Mace Gaz2 7
Order of the Pike Gaz2 7
Order of the Sands DDA2
Order of the Spell Gaz2 7
Phantasmer (aka Illusionist) Gaz3
Ravenguard Berserker Gaz7
Retebius Skyrider DotE
Second Shadow Scout Gaz13
Sisterhood of the Sword DotE
Witch Gaz3
1) I was thinking that certain schools of Brataks might put out Prestige Classes (not all Brataks). In particular, the Gold and Silver Dragon schools that directly serve Moglai Khan might have some elite prestige units.
2) Rather than have 3 different PrCs here, I'd probably just have one "Relic Keeper" PrC that could be used for all demihumans.
3) I don't think the merchant itself should be a PrC, but that the Darokin Merchant presented in the Gaz would be a PrC for merchant oriented types. Either the Rogue, Expert, or a possible Merchant base class (to be created) would be the best choices to reach the qualifications for this PrC.
4) This would be a PrC with an unusual requirement- that one have levels in another PrC (specifically, the Second Shadow Scout) before taking it. It isn't entirely without precedent (I think the Dragonlance campaign uses this route with their Solamnic Knights).
5) These guys are described as hobbyists, so I'm not sure if they deserve their own PrC. I'm torn on the issue.
6) Though not explicitly set out anywhere, I was thinking of making a vile PrC based on the writeup for Xilochtli (the orc priest of Atzanteotl).
7) Lastly, I am not sure that all of the Ylari military orders should necessarily qualify for PrCs. Definitely the Order of the Spell (mounted spellcasters- need special training and rules for that), and the Order of the Lance (elite units). Not entirely sure about the others, though.