Energy Planes? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Energy Planes?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 26, 2004 14:55:04 Does DS have energy planes?

Now there are some references to the negative energy plane, but that implies the existance of a positive energy plane. It seems against the grain of DS to have a plane of infinite life energy.

I think the NEP should be subsumed into the Black or the Void, but I want to know what other people think?

While I'm asking, should the Black connect to the Elemental Planes? (Except Sun because it has no shadows?)
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 26, 2004 19:12:03 Are there 'Athasian specific' postitive or negative elemental planes? None that are documented officially. If you use an open megaverse where Athas is connected to the Great Wheel, then you could use the Pos and Neg planes there. Negative energy though would probably come more from the Grey. Whereas Athas is the place of life (cruel, brutal, and harsh, but life non-the-less), the Grey is the place of Death, undead, and souls. The Black seems more like an opposite to the elemental planes to me. Where the elemental planes are the forces of matter and the building blocks of the universe, the Black is a place of absence, of imaterial, of nothingness.

Obviously, my viewpoint though doesn't lend itself well to a 'balanced Athasian cosmos'. In fact, I creates just the opposite. Even the Athasian planes are out of alignment. The wheel . . . has stopped turning.
#3
zombiegleemax
Mar 26, 2004 21:32:20 I have always thought of the Black as an outer plane and not linked directly to the inner planes. In my version of Athas there is only the 4 elemental planes, 2 energy planes, an elemental transitive plane (the plane all of the elements mix on), the material plane, the Gray, and the Black. Nothing else. If Dregoth travels the planes, he only travels these planes and maybe a few unknown demi-planes. I still haven't decided if there is an Ethereal plane or a Plane of Shadow yet. I don't really want them. I just haven't done the research for spells and stuff to determine that answer.
#4
Kamelion
Mar 27, 2004 3:54:21 I'd keep the energy planes intact. Spells like bless element and all the cure spells already explicitly use positive energy, so it seems fine to me.
#5
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 15:42:38 Okay, assuming positive and negative energy come from the Grey (or neg energy from the Black as is Noonan's DS), a reasonable idea given that the Grey is somehow intrisic to the connectin of mind, body, and spirit, are there energy creatures and where to they hail from? Specifically, would there be energons in the Grey, even though there are no ethereal creatures? What plane do Sandbrides originate from?
#6
Kamelion
Mar 30, 2004 16:10:27 Had to laugh when I saw the Dungeon cosmology summary. "Oh well, there goes that argument". Heh heh.

If we go with Noonan's DS, Sandbrides should probably be stranded denizens of the Black. If the Grey is the source of life energy, then it gives an interesting new spin on death on Athas, No longer is the Grey a place where you fade into an eternal nothingness. Now it's a place where you become one with the lifeforce again, once you have shed the ties of your life. Er, or not.
#7
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 18:27:32
I'd keep the energy planes intact. Spells like bless element and all the cure spells already explicitly use positive energy, so it seems fine to me.

Why do these spells have to 'come from somewhere?' Why can't it simply be converting the normal energy into "insert energy type here"? Why is there a need for justifying spell power with an 'ultimate source'. Why do I keep putting 'stupid quotation marks' around everything for emphasis?

Arcane magic is fueled by life energy. The mage then converts that life energy into X type of energy to fuel the spell in question. Same thing with divine spellpower. Saves the frustration of creating whole new planes of existence for DS, or incorporating stuff from an outside source that may or may not jive well with DS. Then again, if you do use them, use them. Don't simply chalk them up in your notebook and file them away. No sense in having planes that the PCs never visit.
#8
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 20:59:48 I have always worked from the assumption that the Black and the Grey are demiplanes in the Ethereal metaphysically "surrounding" Athas.

The Grey serves as an obstacle to access to the planes beyond, which is why a world crawling with powerful psionicists does not have more planar traffic coming to and from it.

It is worth noting that a plane of life energy is not necessarily out of place in Athas. Yes, it is a world sucked barren by defiling magic. But what life does survive here tends to be very strong. And some people like the halflings in the mountains, the Mind Lords of Saragar and Oronis the Avangion have managed to produce or maintain impressive oasises amidst the desolation.

I see no reason why Positive and Negative energy would produce more problem in the setting than the elements do.
#9
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2004 0:32:35
I see no reason why Positive and Negative energy would produce more problem in the setting than the elements do.

I'm not contesting the idea based on whether or not they 'fit' Athas, I'm simply curious as to why they're needed or wanted. Nothing more. I just don't really see either plane serving any kind of higher purpose either flavor wise, story-wise (except as a place for the party to jaunt off to, but if you think Athas is harsh . . . it sure doesn't hold a candle to either of 'em), or even as a way to rationalise other aspects of the setting (i.e. spell energy, etc.).
#10
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Mar 31, 2004 12:54:56
"There ain't nuthin' that beats a nice relaxing nap after brutally assaulting a hapless old man, emotionally scarring an innocent child twice, and murdering a pair of city guards in broad daylight."
-Black Mage

"I like swords."
-Fighter

8-Bit Theater

OT, but umm... have you seen this comic spoof on 8-bit that was done Mach?
#11
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2004 20:11:18 But remember that the energy planes are more abstract in all settings. Most people think about them very little, or have any awareness of them. Only those that actually use their power really worry about them.

But they are important in that the not only embody life and death, they also alter the elements. Sun (actually Radiance) is fire purified in Positive Energy. Silt (Dust) is Earth broken down by Negative Energy.

All of this is likely to matter more to wizards, psionicists and clerics more than to the average Athasian though. But by the same token, the Astral Plane exists, but it doesn't impact the lives of most people.
#12
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Mar 31, 2004 20:36:19
Originally posted by Psionycx
But remember that the energy planes are more abstract in all settings. Most people think about them very little, or have any awareness of them. Only those that actually use their power really worry about them.

The big thing is that yes they are abstract, and they are also inner planes, not outer planes. I don't see why there couldn't be those two in the mix (gawd, double negative..... grr).

But they are important in that the not only embody life and death, they also alter the elements. Sun (actually Radiance) is fire purified in Positive Energy. Silt (Dust) is Earth broken down by Negative Energy.

Silt is, in Dark Sun cosmology, a corrupted combination of Earth and Water - it replaces the Paraelement of Ooze. Sun is a combination of Fire and Air, it replaces Smoke. Rain is a combination of Air and Water which replaces Steam (I think), and Magma is a combination of Earth and Fire, which is the normal Paraelement from the Manual of the Planes. For the Athasian Cosmology, three of those four Paraelements are getting stronger while Athas as a world dies - Silt, Sun and Magma. Rain is the solitary Paraelement that is suffering like the regular Elements are, and thus tends to side with them, and possibly is the weakest, passing water on being the least prominent Element/Paraelement on Athas.

Positive and Negative energy have nothing to do with it. Actually, my Clerics for Athas work off of a neutral stance on that. Elemental and Paraelemental clerics in my campaigns are forbidden from making or Rebuking undead (alignment doesn't matter, they all Turn Undead) - since Undead are unnatural and abhorent to all of the Paraelemental and Elemental forces. My Templars, however, either Turn or Rebuke based on the alignment of their master - Templars to Dragon-Kings rebuke/control undead, while Templars of Oronis the Avangion Turn undead.

All of this is likely to matter more to wizards, psionicists and clerics more than to the average Athasian though. But by the same token, the Astral Plane exists, but it doesn't impact the lives of most people.

I'd say to Templars, maybe Clerics and possibly Druids more. I tend to work with the idea that all Arcane magic is tainted by negative energy (necromantic effects to drain life energies), due to Rajaat's design of it. The exception being Avangions who shift into a more positive-energy based form of Magic.
#13
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2004 22:05:30 Like any good hardcore 1E/2E person I've never been a believer in "alternative cosmologies".

However, the isolation of Athas can serve to make it's natives what planewalkers would call "Clueless". Hence the strange names for various para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes. It's no different than the annoying tendency of Krynn natives to call everyplace else "The Abyss".

The Grey interdicts Athas, making other planes harder to reach. Hence extraordinary measures were needed to freely reach them, such as the psionic Planar Gate that the Green Age masters built and that Dregoth ended up with.

Magic itself is just a transfer of energy on Athas. I don't think it's really positive or negative. Athas doesn't have any kind of ambient magical source like Toril's Weave or Krynn's moons. Without such, Rajaat had to discover another source of power. In a way he was primarily using positive energy - life force. He wasn't negating it, he was transmuting it, turning life force into magic. Perhaps the darker magics from Defilers and Preservers that drew on the Black or the energy of the dead in the Grey count more as negative.
#14
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2004 22:57:20
OT, but umm... have you seen this comic spoof on 8-bit that was done Mach

Very, very OT but, yup ;), gotta love guest comics. VG Cats kick arse.

Here's another favorite online comic: Penny Arcade, while normally about games, this mini strip became popular enough to make it into the 'cheats' section of the game Legacy of Kain: Defiance. The Carboard Tube is Civilization.

*cough*

Errr, umm . . . oh yeah, energy plains. As I was saying, well, um.

I like alternate cosmologies. Makes things feel different from one world to the next. Knowing that your god Paladine isn't the greatest force of good in the multiverse, but simply one of many, cheapens quite alot when playing a cleric of Paladine on Krynn. Granted, I like the whole interconnected flavor sandwitched between some fresh Planescape bread, but that's really only when running Planescape.
#15
beyowulf
Mar 31, 2004 22:58:29
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm

Rain is a combination of Air and Water which replaces Steam (I think), and Magma is a combination of Earth and Fire, which is the normal Paraelement from the Manual of the Planes.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Rain replaced Ice. The power of Ice waned to such a huge extent that a Fire Elemental Lord took over the place, and as a result, we have Rain instead of Ice.

Steam was what, a Quasi-Elemental,(I think) thats of course if you actually want to deal with such complexities. The others were Ooze, Smoke, and Mineral.
#16
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Mar 31, 2004 23:16:51
Originally posted by beyowulf
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Rain replaced Ice. The power of Ice waned to such a huge extent that a Fire Elemental Lord took over the place, and as a result, we have Rain instead of Ice.

Steam was what, a Quasi-Elemental,(I think) thats of course if you actually want to deal with such complexities. The others were Ooze, Smoke, and Mineral.

That's right, Ice. The Paraelements (normal D&D, 2e or 3/3.5e) are Magma, Ice, Smoke and Ooze. For Athas they are Magma, Rain, Sun and Silt respectively. The Quasi-elements are explained a bit more in EAFW.
#17
beyowulf
Mar 31, 2004 23:24:01
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
That's right, Ice. The Paraelements (normal D&D, 2e or 3/3.5e) are Magma, Ice, Smoke and Ooze. For Athas they are Magma, Rain, Sun and Silt respectively. The Quasi-elements are explained a bit more in EAFW.

[Nitpick]
I also seem to recall Ash being in there somewhere.
[/Nitpick]

Seems I need to reread EAFW again.
#18
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Mar 31, 2004 23:28:20
Originally posted by beyowulf
[Nitpick]
I also seem to recall Ash being in there somewhere.
[/Nitpick]

Seems I need to reread EAFW again.

Well... EAFW had one set of paraelements for Athas, which was later superceded by.... Defilers & Preservers I think. Ash was a Quasielement, IIRC.
#19
Kamelion
Apr 01, 2004 1:15:15 Realms of Evil has a writeup on quasielemental clerics - some really nice ideas there, including moon and void clerics. We fleshed these out to a full set of domains and granted powers for the quasi-clerics for our game - worked out with some cool flavour.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 26, 2004 14:55:04	Does DS have energy planes? Now there are some references to the negative energy plane, but that implies the existance of a positive energy plane. It seems against the grain of DS to have a plane of infinite life energy. I think the NEP should be subsumed into the Black or the Void, but I want to know what other people think? While I'm asking, should the Black connect to the Elemental Planes? (Except Sun because it has no shadows?)
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 26, 2004 19:12:03	Are there 'Athasian specific' postitive or negative elemental planes? None that are documented officially. If you use an open megaverse where Athas is connected to the Great Wheel, then you could use the Pos and Neg planes there. Negative energy though would probably come more from the Grey. Whereas Athas is the place of life (cruel, brutal, and harsh, but life non-the-less), the Grey is the place of Death, undead, and souls. The Black seems more like an opposite to the elemental planes to me. Where the elemental planes are the forces of matter and the building blocks of the universe, the Black is a place of absence, of imaterial, of nothingness. Obviously, my viewpoint though doesn't lend itself well to a 'balanced Athasian cosmos'. In fact, I creates just the opposite. Even the Athasian planes are out of alignment. The wheel . . . has stopped turning.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 26, 2004 21:32:20	I have always thought of the Black as an outer plane and not linked directly to the inner planes. In my version of Athas there is only the 4 elemental planes, 2 energy planes, an elemental transitive plane (the plane all of the elements mix on), the material plane, the Gray, and the Black. Nothing else. If Dregoth travels the planes, he only travels these planes and maybe a few unknown demi-planes. I still haven't decided if there is an Ethereal plane or a Plane of Shadow yet. I don't really want them. I just haven't done the research for spells and stuff to determine that answer.
#4 Kamelion Mar 27, 2004 3:54:21	I'd keep the energy planes intact. Spells like bless element and all the cure spells already explicitly use positive energy, so it seems fine to me.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 15:42:38	Okay, assuming positive and negative energy come from the Grey (or neg energy from the Black as is Noonan's DS), a reasonable idea given that the Grey is somehow intrisic to the connectin of mind, body, and spirit, are there energy creatures and where to they hail from? Specifically, would there be energons in the Grey, even though there are no ethereal creatures? What plane do Sandbrides originate from?
#6 Kamelion Mar 30, 2004 16:10:27	Had to laugh when I saw the Dungeon cosmology summary. "Oh well, there goes that argument". Heh heh. If we go with Noonan's DS, Sandbrides should probably be stranded denizens of the Black. If the Grey is the source of life energy, then it gives an interesting new spin on death on Athas, No longer is the Grey a place where you fade into an eternal nothingness. Now it's a place where you become one with the lifeforce again, once you have shed the ties of your life. Er, or not.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 18:27:32	I'd keep the energy planes intact. Spells like bless element and all the cure spells already explicitly use positive energy, so it seems fine to me. Why do these spells have to 'come from somewhere?' Why can't it simply be converting the normal energy into "insert energy type here"? Why is there a need for justifying spell power with an 'ultimate source'. Why do I keep putting 'stupid quotation marks' around everything for emphasis? Arcane magic is fueled by life energy. The mage then converts that life energy into X type of energy to fuel the spell in question. Same thing with divine spellpower. Saves the frustration of creating whole new planes of existence for DS, or incorporating stuff from an outside source that may or may not jive well with DS. Then again, if you do use them, use them. Don't simply chalk them up in your notebook and file them away. No sense in having planes that the PCs never visit.
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 20:59:48	I have always worked from the assumption that the Black and the Grey are demiplanes in the Ethereal metaphysically "surrounding" Athas. The Grey serves as an obstacle to access to the planes beyond, which is why a world crawling with powerful psionicists does not have more planar traffic coming to and from it. It is worth noting that a plane of life energy is not necessarily out of place in Athas. Yes, it is a world sucked barren by defiling magic. But what life does survive here tends to be very strong. And some people like the halflings in the mountains, the Mind Lords of Saragar and Oronis the Avangion have managed to produce or maintain impressive oasises amidst the desolation. I see no reason why Positive and Negative energy would produce more problem in the setting than the elements do.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 0:32:35	I see no reason why Positive and Negative energy would produce more problem in the setting than the elements do. I'm not contesting the idea based on whether or not they 'fit' Athas, I'm simply curious as to why they're needed or wanted. Nothing more. I just don't really see either plane serving any kind of higher purpose either flavor wise, story-wise (except as a place for the party to jaunt off to, but if you think Athas is harsh . . . it sure doesn't hold a candle to either of 'em), or even as a way to rationalise other aspects of the setting (i.e. spell energy, etc.).
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 31, 2004 12:54:56	"There ain't nuthin' that beats a nice relaxing nap after brutally assaulting a hapless old man, emotionally scarring an innocent child twice, and murdering a pair of city guards in broad daylight." -Black Mage "I like swords." -Fighter 8-Bit Theater OT, but umm... have you seen this comic spoof on 8-bit that was done Mach?
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 20:11:18	But remember that the energy planes are more abstract in all settings. Most people think about them very little, or have any awareness of them. Only those that actually use their power really worry about them. But they are important in that the not only embody life and death, they also alter the elements. Sun (actually Radiance) is fire purified in Positive Energy. Silt (Dust) is Earth broken down by Negative Energy. All of this is likely to matter more to wizards, psionicists and clerics more than to the average Athasian though. But by the same token, the Astral Plane exists, but it doesn't impact the lives of most people.
#12 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 31, 2004 20:36:19	Originally posted by Psionycx But remember that the energy planes are more abstract in all settings. Most people think about them very little, or have any awareness of them. Only those that actually use their power really worry about them. The big thing is that yes they are abstract, and they are also inner planes, not outer planes. I don't see why there couldn't be those two in the mix (gawd, double negative..... grr). But they are important in that the not only embody life and death, they also alter the elements. Sun (actually Radiance) is fire purified in Positive Energy. Silt (Dust) is Earth broken down by Negative Energy. Silt is, in Dark Sun cosmology, a corrupted combination of Earth and Water - it replaces the Paraelement of Ooze. Sun is a combination of Fire and Air, it replaces Smoke. Rain is a combination of Air and Water which replaces Steam (I think), and Magma is a combination of Earth and Fire, which is the normal Paraelement from the Manual of the Planes. For the Athasian Cosmology, three of those four Paraelements are getting stronger while Athas as a world dies - Silt, Sun and Magma. Rain is the solitary Paraelement that is suffering like the regular Elements are, and thus tends to side with them, and possibly is the weakest, passing water on being the least prominent Element/Paraelement on Athas. Positive and Negative energy have nothing to do with it. Actually, my Clerics for Athas work off of a neutral stance on that. Elemental and Paraelemental clerics in my campaigns are forbidden from making or Rebuking undead (alignment doesn't matter, they all Turn Undead) - since Undead are unnatural and abhorent to all of the Paraelemental and Elemental forces. My Templars, however, either Turn or Rebuke based on the alignment of their master - Templars to Dragon-Kings rebuke/control undead, while Templars of Oronis the Avangion Turn undead. All of this is likely to matter more to wizards, psionicists and clerics more than to the average Athasian though. But by the same token, the Astral Plane exists, but it doesn't impact the lives of most people. I'd say to Templars, maybe Clerics and possibly Druids more. I tend to work with the idea that all Arcane magic is tainted by negative energy (necromantic effects to drain life energies), due to Rajaat's design of it. The exception being Avangions who shift into a more positive-energy based form of Magic.
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 22:05:30	Like any good hardcore 1E/2E person I've never been a believer in "alternative cosmologies". However, the isolation of Athas can serve to make it's natives what planewalkers would call "Clueless". Hence the strange names for various para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes. It's no different than the annoying tendency of Krynn natives to call everyplace else "The Abyss". The Grey interdicts Athas, making other planes harder to reach. Hence extraordinary measures were needed to freely reach them, such as the psionic Planar Gate that the Green Age masters built and that Dregoth ended up with. Magic itself is just a transfer of energy on Athas. I don't think it's really positive or negative. Athas doesn't have any kind of ambient magical source like Toril's Weave or Krynn's moons. Without such, Rajaat had to discover another source of power. In a way he was primarily using positive energy - life force. He wasn't negating it, he was transmuting it, turning life force into magic. Perhaps the darker magics from Defilers and Preservers that drew on the Black or the energy of the dead in the Grey count more as negative.
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 22:57:20	OT, but umm... have you seen this comic spoof on 8-bit that was done Mach Very, very OT but, yup ;), gotta love guest comics. VG Cats kick arse. Here's another favorite online comic: Penny Arcade, while normally about games, this mini strip became popular enough to make it into the 'cheats' section of the game Legacy of Kain: Defiance. The Carboard Tube is Civilization. cough Errr, umm . . . oh yeah, energy plains. As I was saying, well, um. I like alternate cosmologies. Makes things feel different from one world to the next. Knowing that your god Paladine isn't the greatest force of good in the multiverse, but simply one of many, cheapens quite alot when playing a cleric of Paladine on Krynn. Granted, I like the whole interconnected flavor sandwitched between some fresh Planescape bread, but that's really only when running Planescape.
#15 beyowulf Mar 31, 2004 22:58:29	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm Rain is a combination of Air and Water which replaces Steam (I think), and Magma is a combination of Earth and Fire, which is the normal Paraelement from the Manual of the Planes. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Rain replaced Ice. The power of Ice waned to such a huge extent that a Fire Elemental Lord took over the place, and as a result, we have Rain instead of Ice. Steam was what, a Quasi-Elemental,(I think) thats of course if you actually want to deal with such complexities. The others were Ooze, Smoke, and Mineral.
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 31, 2004 23:16:51	Originally posted by beyowulf I seem to recall reading somewhere that Rain replaced Ice. The power of Ice waned to such a huge extent that a Fire Elemental Lord took over the place, and as a result, we have Rain instead of Ice. Steam was what, a Quasi-Elemental,(I think) thats of course if you actually want to deal with such complexities. The others were Ooze, Smoke, and Mineral. That's right, Ice. The Paraelements (normal D&D, 2e or 3/3.5e) are Magma, Ice, Smoke and Ooze. For Athas they are Magma, Rain, Sun and Silt respectively. The Quasi-elements are explained a bit more in EAFW.
#17 beyowulf Mar 31, 2004 23:24:01	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm That's right, Ice. The Paraelements (normal D&D, 2e or 3/3.5e) are Magma, Ice, Smoke and Ooze. For Athas they are Magma, Rain, Sun and Silt respectively. The Quasi-elements are explained a bit more in EAFW. [Nitpick] I also seem to recall Ash being in there somewhere. [/Nitpick] Seems I need to reread EAFW again.
#18 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 31, 2004 23:28:20	Originally posted by beyowulf [Nitpick] I also seem to recall Ash being in there somewhere. [/Nitpick] Seems I need to reread EAFW again. Well... EAFW had one set of paraelements for Athas, which was later superceded by.... Defilers & Preservers I think. Ash was a Quasielement, IIRC.
#19 Kamelion Apr 01, 2004 1:15:15	Realms of Evil has a writeup on quasielemental clerics - some really nice ideas there, including moon and void clerics. We fleshed these out to a full set of domains and granted powers for the quasi-clerics for our game - worked out with some cool flavour.