In several places, there are contradictions about who, exactly, is a champion and who is a pretender. Of these, Kalak tops the list, as Hamanu (especially) did not seem to have the Tyrant of Tyr in highest regard. Was this a personal spat between the two, or did Hamanu have a valid point? Also in contention are champions mentioned in passing, such as Irikos. Was he really a champion, or was he just a famous warrior?
While a lot of these things do not have a fast and simple answer, some do.
When putting a post under this thread, back your claim up with a specific quote from the text. We have a lot of comments that tend towards "Some book says." Not good enough, this time, and, yeah, I know I do the same thing.
(see any of the n-dozen threads on this subject. C'mon, let it die already)
In short, there are no easy answers. I was all ready to jump on Xlor's bandwagon with Borys, but the documentation pointed the other way. This one's easier than Borys, so this should be relatively quick.
Worry not, my friend!
To answer the question: He is a champion.
We have primary sources which identify him as the 2nd Champion of Rajaat, Ogre Doom. The Wanderer's Chronicle, for one.
All sources which claim the contrary are in character references to him as a "Pretender" or a "Userper". But they are in character, and are thus secondary sources. All such claims must be filtered through the perspectives, goals and misconceptions of the character making them.
In Kalak's case: Urik and Tyr have been constantly at each other's throats. But even more so, Hammanu has a vested interest in making sure that people thought Kalak was lesser: Of the dead champions, Kalak was the only one who wasn't killed by a Cabal of other champions, or Rajaat himself.
The Sorcerer Kings are a group of people who have survived by manipulating and suppressing history for mellennia. For the most part, the Cleansing Wars were forgotten, even in legend, while the Green Age itself had become little but a myth. There's no reason to think that the SKs would stop trying to manipulate people's view of the past, just because a couple of ex-slaves have been running around claiming differently.
If Kalak is known to be a Champion, he was equal to Hammanu, Nibenay and the Oba. Which means that people could start getting it in their heads that those three could be taken out as well. But if Kalak was simply a powerful wizard ... well, then the remaining SKs are still safely perceved as being untouchable. And thus, we have a strong motive for lying.
Originally posted by flip
Of the dead champions, Kalak was the only one who wasn't killed by a Cabal of other champions, or Rajaat himself.
*cough*Abalache-Re*cough*
Originally posted by Alzrius
*cough*Abalache-Re*cough*
The most rehashed counter-argument to that statement is spread all over these threads.
I'll be blunt by saying this thread here is for people who have followed the long discussions in the above threads and is not adressed to newcomers.
Go read the threads first. ;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
The most rehashed counter-argument to that statement is spread all over these threads.
I'll be blunt by saying this thread here is for people who have followed the long discussions in the above threads and is not adressed to newcomers.
Go read the threads first. ;)
I was going to reply with something just as belittling to show you how it feels when someone looks down their nose at you, but decided that would just make things worse.
Quite frankly, your response there came off as snobbish and belittling. This thread is addressed to newcomers, veterans, and anyone else who feels like reading it. You have no right nor authority to say who can or should read it, or any other threads. If you feel you have a counterpoint to what I said previously, you can say so, or not. Flip was willing to restate his point, so it's not too good for anyone else to do so.
My bad. Thank you for pointing that to me.
I presumed you hadn't read the threads in question only because I would not have made your initial comment had I been in your place and had read both threads.
I'll rephrase the whole thing then:
_____________________________
Originally posted by Alzrius
*cough*Abalache-Re*cough*
About your comment:
flip and others pretty well laid down an acurate picture of what happened in the novels by reminding us that Kalak was killed by the heartwood spear, an artifact made by an halfling chieftain, wielded by a couple of low-level mortal characters that had not been re-touched in any way by Rajaat.
While Abalach-Re's and Borys's deaths were not even by one of Rajaat's swords, but rather were consummed by a black goo spilling from the broken pieces of one of Rajaat's swords. Rajaat briefly appeared through the goo to destroy Abalach-Re, while for Borys the goo simply dissolved his entire body.
Here's what I could find in a quick search:
... Except that Abalache-Re and Borys were killed by Rajaat, via the goop from the Scourge of Rkhard. The role of those ex-slaves was mostly just delivering the sword. Rajaat's essence took care of the rest.
I suggest you make some searches with the words goo, Rkard, and Abalach to find more on the subject.
A lot of words were written on it. Check them out. ;)
I'm saying this because the people who posted on the other consistency thread, and that will surly post again on this one, have posted on the threads discussing how Abalach-Re died and a pretty good answer came up there.
Making sure you're in the loop :D
I'm going with flip on this one. The revised boxed set was released after RAFODK, and made a point to list all of the Sorcerer Kings, their former names, what they killed, and if they succeeded.
As for Irikos, he is not listed, and the product that he is mentioned in (the book of artifacts) isn't a dark sun product. The history of the Silencer of Bodach doesn't mesh at all with any history of the cleansing wars. My suggested fix is that Irikos was not the left hand of Rajaat, but was the left hand of Uyness of Waverly. This change I feel creates the smallest ripples in the original timeline. Otherwise we get into changing the number/title of the champions.
That pretty much sums up my take. The one place I'll take exception is Irikos - yes, he was mentioned in Aritfacts, a non-DS product, but he was also added into the official timeline, making him an official DS character, if not a late-comer.
I'll go back to my original argument with Irikos: he was a champion, but not necessarily a sorcerer-king. Keep in mind that anywhere else, champions are warlords and fighters; only on Athas were they psion/sorcerers (or Psychic warriors).
Maybe the champions that survived were the ones with the abilities to sustain their lives? After Rajaat was imprisoned, he could no longer keep his non-psion, non-magic champions alive. The SKs killed two birds with one stone: Imprisoned their master and "thinned the herd" a bit.
I'd say of all the mentioned champions, the information in 2e WC is the most accurate voice. Since Rise and Fall was written with little "insider" info, it can't be taken as canon, even if the ideas inside are pretty damn good. The only exception to this is Irikos, who was mentioned in two books (psionic artifacts of Athas and the book of artifacts).
Remember: when converting from 2E, every campaign setting brought to 3e/3.5e went through some changes - everything from Greyhawk to Ravenloft. Changes to the setting in order to help bring it across fully into 3e should be expected. In each of the communities for each of the settings, people fought against the changes. The difference between those and Dark Sun is that the published books/materials for those settings are the strongest enforcement of the changes in them. Dark Sun, being devoid of such things (and athas.org being restucted from releasing much of the flavor text from 2e) doesn't have that structure, and leaves it up to the fanbase to make sense of it.
Remember that Dawnstealer's attempts at smoothing out the inconsistancies is an effort to get us all on the same sheet of music. As such, hopefully, if at least *most* of us are on the same page, then maybe the rest of the campaign world will begin to make more sense, and new developments for Dark Sun by the fans will mesh easier. If everyone plays by their own setting variant for Dark Sun, that's all fine and dandy, but if you want to publish something for DS using your perspective on it, that makes it so much harder for everyone else to use, as they have to convert from your DS to their own DS. Sometimes, this isn't all that big of a deal, sometimes it could be something that makes a cool idea unplayable or impossible to incorperate into someone's game, simply because everyone's playing with their own decks.
For coolness factor (and to add at least a touch of variety), Kalak was an imposter and Irikos was a slain champion whom Kalak worked with. I'm going with Nyte's take on it. I'm not getting in to the whole 'Champion killed by low level mortals' since its in novel form and things such as levels and game stats become arbitrary. Rikus and Neeva were considered two of the best gladiators around, Aegis was a 'master of the way', and Sadira was never considered a novice spellslinger. If the game stats later on listed everyone as 2nd level or 32nd lvl, I still would go against it.
Plus, everyone expects certain things in DS. By introducing something different, a twist, you get the attention of your players and add a little depth to DS. Remember, this is a game. I more in favor of doing things that enhance the storytelling aspect of the game. For example, of the now 2 DS groups I game run, one group took part in killing Kalak. Recently, I introduced some things that led them to the conclusion that Kalak wasn't a champion. Since the challenge with Kalak cost a few of the PCs their lives, and since he was not even a true champion, they've got a lot more reason to fear the rest of the SKs.
If Rajaat was really so fond of Irikos, why didn't he use the power of the pristine tower on him and have him replace Uyness? It was possible; Irikos died in 160th kings age, and Manu replaced Myron in the 163rd kings age.
What you said is possible, but I don't find it very beleivable. I think admitting error is the easiest choice... If someone wanted to use the Silencer in his/her game, you'll get fewer quizzical faces from your players if you say he was a general under Uyness, than a general under Rajaat that wasn't a SK but was more highly favored than Uyness and killed orcs too...
As far as Irikos, I'd think if he was a Sorceror-King he would have been on the list. As such, I like the idea of him being a general under Uyness.
2. Irikos and Uyness - what if they were one in the same. I mean, if Ravenloft can't get Kalid-Ma's gender right, maybe someone fubared the names in the Book of Artifacts (as well as gender). It's not like TSR was being helpful at all to their authors/designers. Presto, the Irikos mystery is solved. Of course, the official timeline has both Irikos and Uyness in it, but who says that it was all broken down by a single individual, or that it was in any way complete.
3. Yes, the Wanderer's Chronicle does list "every" champion. Nyt's idea is a fun idea, and IMHO adds to the atmosphere and flavor of Dark Sun, rather than takes away from it. Of course, there are those who would argue this with me to death. I'd say that officially, we just leave Kalak as a Champion. After all, if it's supposed to be a good lie that he was a Champion, maybe the lie should be spread to official game materials as well. Possibly give something like Nyt's suggestion as a sidebar option or something.
Ok. So my vote for the "official" Champion List would be as presented in the Wanderer's Chronicle. Also change any reference to Irikos to be Uyness. After all, it wouldn't make sense that the Silencer would have been given to anyone *except* a Champion. The other two Artifact Swords of Rajaat went to Champions, why would Silencer be given to a general of a Champion?
Or..... another thought.... Uyness masqueraded as Irikos (which, of course, Rajaat would have known the truth), and "faked" her Irikos-persona's death in Bodach. Unfortunately, she lost Silencer at that time too.
---
Of course, this is with the understanding that Nyt's take on Irikos & Kalak is a cool optional take on it.
First of all, I do agree that the simplest way to go at this would be to make the 16 champions described in the WC the only champions there ever was. This is supported by the rest of the material provided in the WC, and is probably the safest way to interpret the info provided to us.
That said, who wants to take the easy road? ;)
BE WARNED: THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG!
More seriously, I think other flavor material, such as the novels, though semi-official they may be, should not be discarded, simply because it gives more flavor to the setting. That does not mean we have to accept any info blindly, but perhaps we can make it fit.
Also, I think there are additionnal clues that point towards more complexity in the champion issue. I'll try to make my thoughts clear, for your use and for my own. Note that I think this might differ from my original standings on this issue.
The swords of Rajaat
Though the Psionic Artifacts supplement is far from being canon from what I understand, and material within it seems a bit off, I do feel the swords are accepted as an integral part of Dark Sun and its history. This is also supported by the Timeline, as the swords are discussed there.
Now, the swords were said to be given to ''[Rajaat's] most favored champions'' (PAoA p.26). Now this sentence is the source of much confusion, because Irikos is not supposed to be a champion. However, perhaps the word ''champion'' is not used here in the same sense that ''Champions of Rajaat'' is. Tough it might seem far fetched, I think their is room for this to work out, considering the rest of the text.
Here is as long an extract as I would think I could post here:
When Rajaat planned the Cleansing Wars 4,000 years ago, the great defiler warlord crafted three mighty weapons to be given
to his most favored champions. The Silencer was given to the left-hand of Rajaat, a warlord named Irikos, who was later killed after destroying the city of Bodach. The second weapon, a long sword called Scorcher, was given to the right-hand of Rajaat—a warlord named Myron who later became known as Myron the Troll Scorcher, 4th Champion of Rajaat. And the third was the Scourge, which was given to Borys of Ebe. With the Silencer lost following Irikos’ death, Rajaat relied heavily on Myron during his war with the preservers of Athas, and with the help of the Scorcher Rajaat succeeded. Next came the Cleansing Wars.
Ok. Lets see. Though the Cleansing wars clearly started while the preserver wars was still raging on, according to the timeline, at least, I think other information might be useful.
1a- Myron and Irikos were the right- and left-hands of Rajaat. Both are reffered to as Warlords. It would be safe to assume they were warlords in the war against preservers, which at the start of the cleansing wars had already been raging for about 800 years. At that time, neither were champions.
1b- However, since the war against preservers had been raging on for so long, and was to continue for many years still, these warlords had to have either been those occupying the post at the time of the start of the cleansing wars, or their lifespans had already been enhanced by Rajaat, increasing it considerably, or perhaps granting them immortality. I would think the second option is more likely. However, this in itself does not require them to be champions, though they would certainly have been favored by their master, having been given such a boon.
2- Myron is said to have been ''later known'' as the 4th Champion. No similar mention is made for Irikos. This could mean Myron, right hand of Rajaat, was given championhood and taken to the Cleansing wars, but Irikos was not and was left to continue the war against preservers. Indeed, the right hand is traditionally more favored than the left, and thus out of the two Myron was chosen for joining the Cleansing wars and becoming a Champion in his own rank. So Myron would have been a champion, but Irikos would not.
3- Something else is worth mentioning, and will be needed for a later topic of mine. The description here makes no mention of when Borys received the Scourge, nor of his relation to the other two. Presumably, Borys was not a warlord, and was certainly not a Third hand of Rajaat. Also, the descriptions of the Scorcher states that ''The Scorcher is constructed of the same unidentifiable red alloy as the Silencer'', which would hint that both weapons were created together, and both given to the hands of Rajaat. The Scourge, however, is not forged out of the same allow, as the depiction clearly shows, which might indicate the blade was forged at a later time.
So, Irikos might not have been a champion, though he was certainly favored by Rajaat and have a very important role to play in his plans.
Borys might be a replacement
In RaFoaDK, Hamanu hinted that Borys might also have been a replacement, as he was for Myron. Even if we are to disregard the novel, Hamanu certainly seems to have had some kind of relashionship with Borys, as the two of them orchestrated the rebellion against Rajaat, when Hamanu went to him to tell of Rajaat's plans.
This could mean that Hamanu and Borys have some history together. If they were both replacements, perhaps they were trained in the ways of wizardry and psionics together under Rajaat.
Also, I would point out that Borys and Hamanu both have their main achievements as Champions at about the same time, which is not far off from when Hamanu entered the Championhood. Indeed:
163rd King's Age (-2,079)
-King's Vengeance (-2,027)
Myron of Yorum is replaced as Troll Scorcher by Manu of Deche, later known as Hamanu of Urik. He is given the sword the Scorcher, created by Rajaat, to complete his task.
164th King's Age (-2,002)
-Friend's Contemplation (-2001)
Hamanu, replaced 4th Champion of Rajaat, kills Windreaver - the last troll of Athas and king of his people.
-Desert Vengeance (-2000)
Rkard, the last dwarven king of Kemalok, is slain by Borys of Ebe in mortal combat-though Borys himself is gravely injured. The Champion's attendants spirit him from the battlefield leaving his sword, the Scourge, still buried in the dwarf's chest. Before he can retrieve the sword, Hamanu tells Borys of Rajaat's true plans for Athas.
As you can see, Hamanu managed to succeed at his task after only 25 years as Champion. Also, Borys killed the last Dwarven king the next year. Now this might be coincidence, but perhaps its because they both set out with similar training and aided one another in their goals. Indeed, if Borys did not even have time to go and get his sword back before Hamanu devirted him towards the rebellion, Hamanu might very well have been at Borys's side in the battle.
Also, I think there is freedom enough to have the third sword of Rajaat be forged later, or at least, given later to Borys than those of Myron and Irikos. That could also well go with Borys as a replacement with Hamanu.
Now, if Borys is a replacement, who did he replace? I believe there are mentions of ''the Neksos'', a powerful bring that combatted the Dwarves, though I don't know where. I think this could very well be our missing champion.
Kalak and more
Now, Kalak's championhood has seen much debate, so here is a new take on it, based on what I can read and what I read from the descriptions of RaFoaDK.
I think it would be best to have Kalak as a Champion. Indeed, he is listed as one in all core material.
Also, I would remark that the Second Champion rank would indicate that he was a wizard/psionicist of considerable power before his ascension as Champion, but most of all, had some favor it the eyes of Rajaat. Also, his speed in accomplishing his task also points out to something.
For the latter, we have to talk about the fact that Irikos is stated as champion against the orcs, and Abalach-Re is also refferred to as Ogre Naught. If we change Orcs to Ogres with Irikos, I have an idea to clear this up.
In many settings, ogres, though they are usually barbarous brutes who smash and pillage anything they get their hands on, have had civilisations in their past. Perhaps this was true of Athasian Ogres, who were not simply mindless brutes. With ogre mages and maybe psionic-ogres, those were a force to be reckoned with. Perhaps they even became a threat to the War Bringer's plans.
So, maybe it was simply that Kalak needed the support of another Champion, such as Abalach-Re, and even Irikos, to help him in his task.
Thus, Abalach-Re could have earned the nickname ''Ogre Naught'' at that time. Note that Abalach-Re had just finished cleansing the orcs at that time, so the possiblity that she was assigned to help Kalak is plausible timewise.
Irikos might also have been diverted from his own duties, making the extermination of the Ogres his ''sacred duty'' for a time. Irikos would be slain later that Age, which also allows him to have diverted his attention there for a while. I would go so far as to suggest that diverting Irikos might have given some time to the preservers to prepare for the seige of Bodach and the magic which destroyed the left-hand of Rajaat.
Anyways, aside from clearing this up, this might also demonstrate that Kalak did not live up to the task that was appointed to him. This might explain why other sorcerer-monarchs might later have looked down upon him, especially since he was favored by Rajaat.
You could add other events to add some animosity between Kalak and some champions, specifically Hamanu and Borys, which would account for Hamanu's comments.
So Kalak would be a Champion, and Hamanu's comments would be accurate.
Then, something else. Kalak seems to have been percieved as not having started Dragon Metamorphosis until the events that lead to his death. I think this could be a good flavor element to Kalak's character as follows:
Having lost favor in the eyes of Hamanu, and possibly Borys, Kalak could have been left out of Borys's Dragon Metamorphosis spell. However, being present at the location of the casting might still have linked him with an elemental vortice. Also, if one prefers, perhaps Kalak was not linked, but Sacha and Wyan's heads were in the same way. Not wishing further conflict, Kalak was given the heads as councilors, but also as energy conduits for his own followers.
In any case, Kalak must have had a special status in the rebellion, since it was he who ended up with the beheaded champions. Those were either for his benefit, or his charge. In any case, I think the idea of having the heads as source of Kalak's power, but Kalak having brainwashed the heads so that they can channel this power other than through Kalak is really cool.
Anyhow, this way, Kalak is a champion, but not a dragon king, and both material from core documents and RaFoaDK works.
Just a note: I don't think having heroic characters slay a champion without an artifact is unplausible. In fact, the opposite seems too D&D for me, thinking low-level characters couldn't beat a high level one. In flavor reading, the conditions described in the Prism Pentad could very well have resulted in the death of the Tyrant, though that plan might have seemed very unlikely to succeed. That stuff is what makes it so heroic.
Pennarin
That one I know nothing about, so I'll leave to the others. ;)
So:
- All 16 champions described in WC are champions, including Kalak.
- Irikos was not a champion.
- Borys might have replaced another champion, known as the Neksos, which might have been his dwarven name.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
For the latter, we have to talk about the fact that Irikos is stated as champion against the ogres, and Abalach-Re is also refferred to as Ogre Naught. I have an idea to clear this up.
[/b]
Actually, Irikos is referred to as the champion against orcs, not ogres in the material. Nyt had the idea that maybe it was a misprint.
I don't agree with this outside of the officiality, but I'm not going to be able to convince, other than a small handfull of people, that my idea is the actual true official idea, unless of course Troy or Tim came onto this forum right now and backed me up.
If anything, this has shown just how diverse the Dark Sun fans have gone on things. Shei-Nad's take on it is just as detailed and well written as Nytcrawlr's - and they are really quite different approaches to the situation. The "simple" method of using the WC and discarding most of the rest is also another method. This is definitely a topic that it would be nice to pool together and agree on
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
2- Myron is said to have been ''later known'' as the 4th Champion. No similar mention is made for Irikos.
Or Borys I might add...
Which I find issue with and was one of the things that made me start questioning the whole Kalak/Irikos thing.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Now, if Borys is a replacement, who did he replace? I believe there are mentions of ''the Neksos'', a powerful bring that combatted the Dwarves, though I don't know where. I think this could very well be our missing champion.
TotDL
Anyways, I still prefer Nyt's idea in favor of the simple version of the WC.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
In many settings, ogres, though they are usually barbarous brutes who smash and pillage anything they get their hands on, have had civilisations in their past. Perhaps this was true of Athasian Ogres, who were not simply mindless brutes. With ogre mages and maybe psionic-ogres, those were a force to be reckoned with. Perhaps they even became a threat to the War Bringer's plans.
One of the reasons I brought in Irda (with some tweaks) into my DS back in the day.
I think Athasian ogres, much like Athasian trolls, were closer to something resembling Irda than the typical D&D Ogre.
Same goes for trolls, even though an official adventure already kinda kills that idea.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Oh, and what's that adventure about the athasian last troll? I understand it came out in Dragon or Dungeon. Yes? Which issue?
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Been skimming through Terrors of the Dead Lands, but can't find the passage which talks about The Neksos. Anyone cares to spare me the trouble of searching and point me to the right page?
Oh, and what's that adventure about the athasian last troll? I understand it came out in Dragon or Dungeon. Yes? Which issue?
http://athas.org/articles/
Scroll to the bottom.
Dungeon 56, "Grave Circumstances"
... I suppose I really ought to update that page. I'm a bit used to not having any articles show up for DS ... ;)
Originally posted by flip
http://athas.org/articles/
Scroll to the bottom.
Dungeon 56, "Grave Circumstances"
... I suppose I really ought to update that page. I'm a bit used to not having any articles show up for DS ... ;)
Yeah, esp since that one Polyhedron with the Geran in it has the wrong number listed. hehe
And the Neksos?
I would say that, officially, the following should stand:
1) Kalak is a champion.
2) Irikos was a champion that was killed (more on this in a moment).
3) The Champion list in the Wanderer's Chronical is accurate.
4) There may be other undiscovered champions.
Okay, now for the additional info.
First up, Irikos.
Here's one for you guys:
Irikos
On most DnD worlds, orcs are such a problem because they breed fast. They're the "1HD monster" and they're all over the place. Is it possible that Orcs were so widespread that it took two champions to wipe them out?
Here's another thought: Maybe Irikos was what the restaurant business calls a "float." The float goes and helps out where needed; they may bus tables, take drink orders, or whatever - they fill in the gaps. Irikos was Rajaat's chosen (one of them, anyway) and I think history showed that Abalach-Re was less than competent. Maybe Irikos stepped in and "lent a hand" until Abalach-Re could get a handle on things, then he went back to slaughtering pockets of (preserver, human, psionic) resistance.
Thought three: It's also possible that Irikos was a Warrior Champion, in other words, not a magic user. He might have been an extraordinarily powerful fighter or psychic warrior instead. You could even go so far as to say that he was a mutant that was immune to magic (and couldn't use it either). After all, once Rajaat had cleaned all the races from the face of Athas, how would he get rid of all of his uberpowerful champions? You may argue that Rajaat could beat them all, if he wanted, but history proved this wrong...TWICE. Rajaat must have known this and would certainly have kept around help that could defeat his champions when all was said and done.
Moving on.
"Other" Champions
While the list in the Wanderer's Chronical is a complete listing of the known champions, it never states that they are the only champions. I've said it before (in this thread, I think), and I'll say it again: there are more than likely many other champions that existed during the Cleansing Wars. While it's debateable how many survived to current times, some of them must have.
This said, this is a path that should always be left open, no matter what we decide. Saying that the 16 Champions were the only Champions limits the creativity of GMs everywhere to those 16 names. Where's the fun in that? Half the fun of GMing Dark Sun is answering those odd questions for yourself: what lies on the other side of the Sea of Silt? What's North of Saragar? What's beyond the Crimson Savanna? And so on.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Thanks flip!
And the Neksos?
Use the search feature in adobe man. :P
Can't remember where it is exactly right now.
Morg entry maybe.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Thought three: It's also possible that Irikos was a Warrior Champion, in other words, not a magic user. He might have been an extraordinarily powerful fighter or psychic warrior instead. You could even go so far as to say that he was a mutant that was immune to magic (and couldn't use it either).
Except that he is described as a defiler in both sources.
I prefer to think of him as the typical fighter/wizard, a fighter that uses magic to augment his fighting abilities and that's it, doesn't have fireball et al.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
"Other" Champions
While the list in the Wanderer's Chronical is a complete listing of the known champions, it never states that they are the only champions. I've said it before (in this thread, I think), and I'll say it again: there are more than likely many other champions that existed during the Cleansing Wars. While it's debateable how many survived to current times, some of them must have.
This said, this is a path that should always be left open, no matter what we decide. Saying that the 16 Champions were the only Champions limits the creativity of GMs everywhere to those 16 names. Where's the fun in that? Half the fun of GMing Dark Sun is answering those odd questions for yourself: what lies on the other side of the Sea of Silt? What's North of Saragar? What's beyond the Crimson Savanna? And so on.
The problem is that the Wanderer's Chronicle, the way it is worded, implies that they are the only champions
Today, only a handful of the original Champions remain active in the world. All of them are detailed below
Which implies that while only a handful are around, all of the original champions are listed in the Wanderer's Chronicle.
Anyways... I'll comment more on this when I have some time. Still thinking about the whole thing...
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Thanks flip!
And the Neksos?
Ok, had time to find it for you. :P
It's in the morg entry, alot of it is before the mechanics, but the crunchy, fluffy stuff is in the "creating a morg" section.
I'd paste, but that's alot to writeout and the pdf is locked. :P
Using adobe's search will also find this info.
Basically, Borys has to be the replacement for The Neksos.
Today, only a handful of the original Champions remain active in the world. All of them are detailed below
What I'm going to point out here is the following section:
"remain active in the world"
At first glance, it would appear that they're saying "These are the only champions left in the world," but that's not necessarily what it means. It's probably unintentionally ambiguous. For example, you could say it raises these questions:
1) Are there others that are inactive? Sleeping somewhere beneath the sand?
2) Are they around, but just not active in the Tablelands sense?
3) Are they around, but not active in the sense that, say, should Rajaat return, they wouldn't give a damn because they have their own problems?
4) By "World" does it mean the known world?
And so on. So even that sentence alone does not suggest there are no other champions. Just that the champions mentioned are the only ones known to actively participate in the major Athasian events so far.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
What I'm going to point out here is the following section:
"remain active in the world"
At first glance, it would appear that they're saying "These are the only champions left in the world," but that's not necessarily what it means. It's probably unintentionally ambiguous. For example, you could say it raises these questions:
1) Are there others that are inactive? Sleeping somewhere beneath the sand?
2) Are they around, but just not active in the Tablelands sense?
3) Are they around, but not active in the sense that, say, should Rajaat return, they wouldn't give a damn because they have their own problems?
4) By "World" does it mean the known world?
And so on. So even that sentence alone does not suggest there are no other champions. Just that the champions mentioned are the only ones known to actively participate in the major Athasian events so far.
Actually, english grammer and syntax, as well as (gasp?!) semantics, which are all important in conversation, but more and more frequently ignored it seems, shows that the entire paragraph:
The Champions that survived the Cleansing Wars and eventually betrayed Rajaat became the sorcerer-kings of the Tyr Region. today, only a handful of the original Champions remain active in the world. All of them are detailed below.
when broken down goes like this:
The first sentence defines the difference between Champions and Sorcerer-Kings. As Sacha & Wyan (and, by default, Myron) did not rebel against Rajaat, they were not Sorcerer-Kings.
In the second sentence, the word original is used, in such a way that it means the Champions that Rajaat made, with the exception of the one that was a replacement (Hamanu), as he was not an Original champion. The entire sentence conveys that it is referring to all of these Champions.
The third sentence uses a pronoun, that refers to the subject of the previous sentence, which was all of the Champions of Rajaat, and actually includes Hamanu as well.
So, the sentence very much defines that the 15 (technically 16) Champions listed below are in fact all Rajaat had. Based solely off of the language as it is used.
---
I know, most people don't like arguing semantics, so I'll leave this arguement here, and let it stand.
BTWFYI: My father had a Masters degree in English, another in Languages (and a third in Divinity...). If I didn't speak properly in English to him, he would continuously correct me (which while it's been years since I had that every day, it still makes for what would be my...more articulate ways of explaining things). I might not get it 100% correct all the time, but then again, I didn't get the Masters in English.
Indeed, it states that only a handful of all champions remain active today. Then, it states that all champions are described below. Now, one could think they might refer to all active champions, but clearly, that is not so:
Myron and Sielba are both described. Those champions fell long ago and with many centuries in between them, meaning that this list of champions is clearly not meant as a representation of the number of champion at any definite time.
The way its written, that list would be exclusive.
Now, the question is, do we disregard other leads simply because of this list, or do we not hold this list as exclusive, no matter what is implied, and adjust to add in more flavor.
In any case, I would just point out that this list in the WC most likely represents what the Dark Sun authors were thinking of doing at that time, and could be revised. Indeed, they have done so themselves with other elements. The Obsidian plain's origin, for example, seems to have been rethinked from WC to SotDL. The Dragon's wings is another obvious recently discussed example of the authors changing/making up their minds.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Now, the question is, do we disregard other leads simply because of this list, or do we not hold this list as exclusive, no matter what is implied, and adjust to add in more flavor.
In any case, I would just point out that this list in the WC most likely represents what the Dark Sun authors were thinking of doing at that time, and could be revised. Indeed, they have done so themselves with other elements. The Obsidian plain's origin, for example, seems to have been rethinked from WC to SotDL. The Dragon's wings is another obvious recently discussed example of the authors changing/making up their minds.
Basically, the way I look at it, if you want to change one part of the list, why not change more? If you want to include the possibility of more Champions, why not make Kalak an imposter? But yea, this is definitely the crux of the arguement. Do we want to try to figure out where the designers were going with this, which could be a very time-consuming process, or do we just want to make a decision on the topic ourselves? I'm very happy with the way the issue with Borys' wings turned out.
Basically, my point is this: Removing the possibility of any other champions than the remaining five (that would be Hamanu, Lalalai-Puy, Nibenay, Daskinor, and Keltis) makes Athas a far less interesting place. The chances of other champions, with their own far-flung cities, leaves options open for GMs to plot and players to tremble at.
Oh, fine: I'll break down the entire paragraph.
The Champions that survived the Cleansing Wars and eventually betrayed Rajaat became the sorcerer-kings of the Tyr Region. today, only a handful of the original Champions remain active in the world. All of them are detailed below.
Now, if the thesis statement stated this: "The Champions that survived the Cleansing Wars" and stopped there, you would have a valid argument. The fact that it doesn't stop there still leaves the door open. The entire sentence states:
"The Champions that survived the Cleansing Wars and eventually betrayed Rajaat became the Sorcerer Kings of the Tyr Region."
Logically, this sentence makes two proclamations:
1) Some Champions survived the Cleansing Wars.
2) The Champions who betrayed Rajaat became the Sorcerer Kings of the Tyr Region.
If the statement had said:
"The only Champions who survived the Cleansing Wars overthrew Rajaat and became the Sorcerer Kings of the Tyr Region"
then you would be correct and I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As it stands, they biffed the syntax, leaving the door open for grammer hounds like you and me to endlessly argue over.
Add to this the fact that several books make mention of the likelihood of dragon kings beyond the Tyr region, and it throws a few more weights on that scale.
I would say the truth lies somewhere in between.
The list of the 16 champions is accurate; it represents the Champions who chose to overthrow Rajaat and settle in what was probably the richest, most-populated part of the world: the Tyr region. It is at least possible that a few champions chose to abstain from the attack on Rajaat, not sure how it come out. There are some that might have been on the other side of the world, and didn't know about the plot. Some might have gone insane, ala Daskinor, or simply decided that staying away from the politics of the Tyr region would be in their best interest.
Point being this: the possibility of other dragons, and maybe another Dragon, shouldn't be tossed based on one paragraph, especially when it's disputed in other books. That's the point of this argument, though: to come to a consensus and decide what the official or intended version was.
Hence the Neksos from TotDL which was part of the original writeup and not added when athas.org got their hands on it.
So obviously there were more than 16 champions.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Yar, I know grammar fairly well, as I used to be an editor. I could break apart the entire paragraph, if you'd like, but that would be an amazing waste of time.
Basically, my point is this: Removing the possibility of any other champions than the remaining five (that would be Hamanu, Lalalai-Puy, Nibenay, Daskinor, and Keltis) makes Athas a far less interesting place. The chances of other champions, with their own far-flung cities, leaves options open for GMs to plot and players to tremble at.
Oh, fine: I'll break down the entire paragraph.
I don't want this to get into too heated an arguement, but ok....
Now, if the thesis statement stated this: "The Champions that survived the Cleansing Wars" and stopped there, you would have a valid argument. The fact that it doesn't stop there still leaves the door open. The entire sentence states:
"The Champions that survived the Cleansing Wars and eventually betrayed Rajaat became the Sorcerer Kings of the Tyr Region."
Logically, this sentence makes two proclamations:
1) Some Champions survived the Cleansing Wars.
2) The Champions who betrayed Rajaat became the Sorcerer Kings of the Tyr Region.
Actually, it states:
1) Not all of the Champions survived the Cleansing Wars. (Myron, of course, did not, and is the sole example listed below).
2) Some the Champions who survived the Cleansing Wars betrayed Rajaat and became Sorcerer-Kings of the Tyr Region (Sacha & Wyan survived, however they did not betray Rajaat, nor did they become Sorcerer-Kings; they are the only examples of this).
If the statement had said:
"The only Champions who survived the Cleansing Wars overthrew Rajaat and became the Sorcerer Kings of the Tyr Region"
then you would be correct and I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As it stands, they biffed the syntax, leaving the door open for grammer hounds like you and me to endlessly argue over.
Except that you are not accounting for Sacha and Wyan in that.
Add to this the fact that several books make mention of the likelihood of dragon kings beyond the Tyr region, and it throws a few more weights on that scale.
Actually, they make mention of the likelihood of dragons beyond the Tyr region. Not all dragons are Sorcerer-Kings, if you recall.
I would say the truth lies somewhere in between.
The list of the 16 champions is accurate; it represents the Champions who chose to overthrow Rajaat and settle in what was probably the richest, most-populated part of the world: the Tyr region. It is at least possible that a few champions chose to abstain from the attack on Rajaat, not sure how it come out. There are some that might have been on the other side of the world, and didn't know about the plot. Some might have gone insane, ala Daskinor, or simply decided that staying away from the politics of the Tyr region would be in their best interest.
Point being this: the possibility of other dragons, and maybe another Dragon, shouldn't be tossed based on one paragraph, especially when it's disputed in other books. That's the point of this argument, though: to come to a consensus and decide what the official or intended version was.
I'm not arguing against the possibility of other dragons or even another Dragon being discarded. I'm saying that they wouldn't be Champions of Rajaat or true Sorcerer-Kings, based on the material presented in the Wanderer's Chronicle.
However, if we want to include the possibility that there are more Sorcerer-Kings (of which, I'm not personally opposed to, and actually think would be really cool to populate the world with many more Champions), then we should be more open to the idea that maybe Kalak wasn't a true Champion of Rajaat. We can't have it both ways - we can't say that Kalak is a Champion because the WC says so, and then ignore that the WC states it lists the entire compliment of Champions so as to add more to the list. This is the point I'm trying to bring across here.
. My 2 bits, late as usual:The WC list must be a list of all Champions. It cannot be a list of the Champions who "remain active in the world", for the simple reason that it then goes on to list dead and/or inactive Champions. That fact alone settles it for me.
The Neksos is Borys. Read the entry again - it hints that the Neksos is not his real name and he was going through a phase of having people take names other than their own. (I always thought that Borys was a stupid name for a supercool dragon - maybe this was an attempt to mitigate what has become known as the "Karloff S**** Syndrome" in my games...)
Irikos was a warlord and "champion" whose sacred duty was to kill the orcs. Rather than make him a Champion, just make him subservient to Uyness - Rajaat gave her his left hand to help her out in her fight as Champion of Orc Squishing. Or maybe Rajaat intended for Irikos to be the Champion but he never made the grade and Rajaat gave the big job to someone else (like what happened with Qwith).
The Dragon Kings reference to other dragons outside the Tyr region might have already been a veiled reference to Daskinor and Farcluun.
Just some idle thoughts
Kam, good thinking, but one doesn't necessarily nullify the other. The list could easily be a listing of the 16 Champions who betrayed (or were involved in the betraying of) Rajaat. Others, such as Neksos, were not mentioned because they did not try to overthrow Rajaat.
I'm honestly not trying to be obtuse here: I do not believe that TSR's intention was to state difinitively that there were (and are) no other champions on the face of Athas, just that these were the ones players were likely to encounter (or whose works they were likely to encounter, in the case of the dead ones).
This is a great topic! Not quite what I was looking for and probably deserving it's own thread.
Back on topic, and the real question/discussion we're looking for:
Was Kalak a real champion?
Was Irikos a real champion?
Was Neksos a real champion?
I believe the official answer to all three is "Yes," but I also think the boys at TSR unintentionally left the door open for other interpretations. Do we want to settle on that? Here's the arguments for the various "Champions:"
The statement that Kalak was not a champion comes exclusively from Hamanu, who, as it's been pointed out, has a vested interest in making Kalak look weak. It's likely that Kalak is a Champion despite what Hamanu says. Verdict: Champion.
Irikos was probably an accidental character added at a later date because someone at TSR in general didn't communicate with the DS team. Now he's a part of the history of DS and they had to add him in. Verdict: Reluctant Champion.
Neksos was a Champion, and is not listed, living or dead, in the list of 16. If TSR would have kept chugging along to current day, Terrors of the Deadlands would have been released as is and we'd have an official TSR book with the Champion "Neksos" in it. The folks at Athas.org received the notes, so we have the product from them, instead.
This does two things to the argument: First, it means there were other champions not mentioned in the original 16; Second, it opens the door for other Champions to exist that might not be mentioned.
It also opens the door for inconsistency and confusion, which probably would have gone away had TSR remained a corporation and kept releasing books. The problem is: they didn't, and we, the fans, are left to tie up the loose ends as best we can. Verdict: Neksos is probably a real Champion.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
The statement that Kalak was not a champion comes exclusively from Hamanu, who, as it's been pointed out, has a vested interest in making Kalak look weak.
I'm not arguing the point with you Dawn, but just pointing out something that kind of itches at the back of my brain.
There's a lot of talk about 'vested interest' when talking about Hamanu. I've seen similar comments like that before in other posts. Most of the time that someone makes a kind of attempt at a quote (I don't blame anyone for not searching throught the 300 pages of the book, hate doing that myself;)) on what Hamanu said at one point, having read the book so many times I half remember the context in which he said it, and some times the 'vested interest' explanation doesn't apply:
If the omnipotent narrator (its not Hamanu) tells us something then its the real deal.
If Hamanu is the narrator, then he can:
1- recolect past events, not by thinking in words but by reliving the memory, which we share with him;
2- talk to himself in his head, remembering a bit of info from the past or drawing a conclusion concerning present events;
3 - talk out loud, which may or may not be followed or preceded by talk in his head concerning the comment he's making.
As far as I can tell only option 3 is open to interpretation. Only if Hamanu mentions a bit of info to someone else than himself can we say that he played or altered the truth for his personnal gain.
If I remember correctly the case of Kalak falls into category 2.
It was narration meant for the reader, not for one of the characters of the novel.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Kam, good thinking, but one doesn't necessarily nullify the other. The list could easily be a listing of the 16 Champions who betrayed (or were involved in the betraying of) Rajaat. Others, such as Neksos, were not mentioned because they did not try to overthrow Rajaat.
Thanks, Dawnstealer. Better late than never. Heh, but at the risk of sounding rude, it really does only say one thing. It says that it is a list of all the Champions, including those who are now dead or no longer active. It just says it, man! :D
If it was a list of just those Champions who were involved in the betraying of Rajaat then why is Myron on the list? His presence means that it cannot be that kind of list.
I'm honestly not trying to be obtuse here: I do not believe that TSR's intention was to state difinitively that there were (and are) no other champions on the face of Athas, just that these were the ones players were likely to encounter (or whose works they were likely to encounter, in the case of the dead ones).
Don't wanna come across all argumentative either
But you know, this exactly what I think that they were trying to do. I genuinely don't think that there are half the contradictions that folks seem to think that there are over this.I went back and re-read the Neksos stuff. Neksos is not a name, it is a title and it definitely states that the Neksos had a phase where he replaced names with titles (see the 2 Morg entries in TotDL). I see no reason to invent another Champion when there is already some reason to believe that the Neksos and Borys are one and the same person. It adds complications that cannot be easily reconciled with any of the other published game materials.
Back on topic, and the real question/discussion we're looking for:
Was Kalak a real champion?
...
The statement that Kalak was not a champion comes exclusively from Hamanu, who, as it's been pointed out, has a vested interest in making Kalak look weak. It's likely that Kalak is a Champion despite what Hamanu says. Verdict: Champion.
Yes. No contradictions on this one, except for some in-character dialogue, which (as Flip points out) is a secondary source.
Was Irikos a real champion?
...
Irikos was probably an accidental character added at a later date because someone at TSR in general didn't communicate with the DS team. Now he's a part of the history of DS and they had to add him in. Verdict: Reluctant Champion.
No. PAoA clearly distinguishes him as "champion" and "warlord" from Numbered Champion of Rajaat (like Myron became). The only reference to him having a Champion-like agenda is in the non-DS 2e Book of Artifacts where it states that it was his sacred duty to kill all the orcs. It doesn't say he was a Champion, though, and doesn't say that he was personally responsible for carrying this out, only that once it was done he turned his attention to other enemies of Rajaat. The likeliest explanation is that he served Uyness for Rajaat after failing to be selected as a Numbered Champion. If you take this angle, there are no contradictions anywhere and you don't have to invent anything new either.
Was Neksos a real champion?
...
Neksos was a Champion, and is not listed, living or dead, in the list of 16. If TSR would have kept chugging along to current day, Terrors of the Deadlands would have been released as is and we'd have an official TSR book with the Champion "Neksos" in it. The folks at Athas.org received the notes, so we have the product from them, instead.
Yes he is a Champion, but only because the Neksos is Borys. He is already on the list under his real name. No contradictions here either and it matches what is stated in TotDL.
Finally, let's not forget the line on WC p12 that says very clearly that Rajaat chose his 15 best students and "turned those fifteen students into his Champions". Add one for Manu and there you have the 16. I really don't see the confusion over all of this :P
Probably, the only way to solve this one would be to talk to Troy or Tim and ask them what the hell they were thinking.
My point with Irikos was that he was added by TSR in their non-DS Book of Artifacts. Psionic Artifact of Athas wasn't written until several years later, suggesting that the writers of DS were forced to adapt to the new information hoisted on them.
So perhaps we can hit a compromise here:
Officially, the 16 champions of Rajaat are the only 16 champions of Rajaat, ever.
Unofficially, this may be propaganda by the Champions of the Tyr region, or the Champions who specifically worked to overthrow Rajaat, who want to make themselves stand out.
Oh, and the point about Myron is a good one, but without Myron, there would be no point to Hamanu, since he was a replacement. Myron did have an effect on the whole Rajaat-thing simply by screwing up enough to be replaced by Hamanu, who eventually helped to overthrow Rajaat, dig?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
You make good points, but I'm still not going to be swayed on this.
Probably, the only way to solve this one would be to talk to Troy or Tim and ask them what the hell they were thinking.
My point with Irikos was that he was added by TSR in their non-DS Book of Artifacts. Psionic Artifact of Athas wasn't written until several years later, suggesting that the writers of DS were forced to adapt to the new information hoisted on them.
As I've said, I like the idea of adding Champions and expanding the known world of Dark Sun, populating it with nasty Sorcerer-Kings or Dragons. However.... talking to Troy or Tim, while it could be benefitial, we have to ask - is that what we want? Isn't Dark Sun's design up to us (i mean, the fans), and more specifically the athas.org team now? Do we need to keep being trapped and limited by where it was as opposed to where the setting is to be?
Irikos was added by TSR, I'll agree. But if we're looking to add Champions, it would be fun to make him one as well, as Nyt did on his writeup.
Kalak officially is a Champion. But it would be fun if he wasn't a real one. If there was some propaganda out there that even the other Sorcerer-Monarchs believe, except for Hamanu. And nobody believed him.
In life Sekdo Azeg was a war-chief of the armies of the Neksos, one of Rajaat’s Champions. During Sekdo’s life, the Neksos was in a period wherein he was trying to improve discipline and focus of his troops, and so names were discouraged and ranks used instead. Azeg was known as Sekdo — “Commander of the First Thousand” — for most of his adult life. Sekdo was one of his master’s most loyal, and most successful commanders, leading assaults on some of the most inaccessible dwarf-holds of the southern Tablelands. He personally slew the Stone-King of Knorhay, charging far ahead of the main body to hunt down the fleeing dwarven host and its commander.
As he drew older, Sekdo feared that he would be cast aside like so many of his peers, abandoned by the Neksos once his energetic years were over. He petitioned to receive the gift of morgbirth, hoping to renew the strength of his youth, and ensure his place of honorby his master’s side for eternity. When he was reborn as a morg, Sekdo was a well-trained warrior.
By the way that is written, "the Neskos" would be a rank, not a name, such as "Sedko" is a rank, not a name. It tells you that Borys' rank in his armies was "the Neskos", as he was the Dwarf-Scourge.
So perhaps we can hit a compromise here:
Officially, the 16 champions of Rajaat are the only 16 champions of Rajaat, ever.
I'd have to agree, even though I don't want to. At some point, we might just have to use Occam's Razor here.
Unofficially, this may be propaganda by the Champions of the Tyr region, or the Champions who specifically worked to overthrow Rajaat, who want to make themselves stand out.
I personally love this idea. Simply because the Tyr Region is mighty small, and if there was supposed to be these huge wars wiping out all of the Rebirth Races, there should have been, IMHO more Champions. Plus, propaganda could also have been used to hide things like how Nyt's writeup works. The fact that the Sorcerer-Kings basically outlawed reading & writing, as well as rewrote history to suit their purposes, would lend credence with this.
Oh, and the point about Myron is a good one, but without Myron, there would be no point to Hamanu, since he was a replacement. Myron did have an effect on the whole Rajaat-thing simply by screwing up enough to be replaced by Hamanu, who eventually helped to overthrow Rajaat, dig?
Well, then your point about the Neskos would be seriously flawed, as if the Neskos was a Champion that came before Borys, then he should, by that reasoning, be listed with the 16 other Champions. Once again, you can't have it both ways....
talking to Troy or Tim, while it could be benefitial, we have to ask - is that what we want?
Basically just curiosity, at this point. Once and for all, I'd like to hear what they had planned and what they meant. If I didn't like it once I heard it (ala space-halflings), I'd ditch it and go with my own idea. It's what I do anyway.
I like Nyt's version, too. So now the question becomes this: I think we've determined that the DS boys wanted the 16 Champs to be it, but is that what we, the DS community want?
If we want to leave it open, that's preferred by me. We'll just claim that the "official" stance of the DS community is that the history was derived from questionable sources (it was written by the Wanderer, who was getting the information 3rd hand, at best) and wasn't entirely accurate, or didn't take into account Champions beyond the Tyr region (which would include North to Saragar). That leaves the door open.
Is that what we want?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
However, if we want to include the possibility that there are more Sorcerer-Kings (of which, I'm not personally opposed to, and actually think would be really cool to populate the world with many more Champions), then we should be more open to the idea that maybe Kalak wasn't a true Champion of Rajaat. We can't have it both ways - we can't say that Kalak is a Champion because the WC says so, and then ignore that the WC states it lists the entire compliment of Champions so as to add more to the list. This is the point I'm trying to bring across here.
Ahmen!
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
So perhaps we can hit a compromise here:
Officially, the 16 champions of Rajaat are the only 16 champions of Rajaat, ever.
Unofficially, this may be propaganda by the Champions of the Tyr region, or the Champions who specifically worked to overthrow Rajaat, who want to make themselves stand out.
This gets my vote, absolutely.
Officially there were only 16 champions of Rajaat.
Neksos was Borys' rank at a point where he called everyone by their ranks instead of their names.
Irikos served under Ulyness to help out with the orcs, only to get his butt spanked by the preservers of Bodach and then lose the silencer while still accomplishing his mission of sacking Bodach.
Kalak is a champion, one of which Hammanu and a few others didn't like to the point of discrediting him.
Unofficially? Do what ever the hell you want, it's your campaign, you are the DM, go nuts!
When it comes to what we have to tell newbies and what we are referencing on an official level with any new writeup or whatever, we have to stick to what is official and leave the speculation at home.
;)
So follow my lead when it comes to your campaign, when it comes to the official world though, let's stick to official cannon that isn't all that inconsistent anyways, at least in regards to this.
I rather like him as a Champion, and that the Wanderer just overlooked him. But then playing the Wanderer as just a well traveled and extreamly knowledgeable person has allowed me some extra leeway in how I run things (a couple more lost city-states, champions, and the Naturebenders being responsible for the Kreen's intelligence and ability to adapt themselves are just a few).
Here's my vote. (I'll make it shorter, I promise!
)Number of Champions = 16
Special cases (going through the list numerically)
2- Kalak
Kalak was a champion, though he did lose favor in the eyes of some champions, and probably had a quarrel with Borys and Hamanu. This resulted in him not recieving the Dragon Metamorphosis spell from Borys, and thus Kalak was not a Dragon King. Singled out, he recieved Sacha and Wyan to serve him, and he in turn served as their keeper. (This works IMO. why did Kalak get them anyways). The heads, present at the casting of the dragon metamorphosis spell, allowed Kalak to power his templars, and he eventually managed to channel the energy from the heads at his command, and the heads were brainwashed and forgot that they, and not Kalak, were the source of this power. This is why Tithian was never able to duplicate Kalak's power and why tyrian templars lost the ability to use their spells.
5- Abalach-Re
Abalach-Re had Irikos appointed to help her achieve victory over the orcs, and after her task was completed, both went to assist Kalak in fighting the orcs. This is when the Dragon Queen got her nickname Ogre Naught.
13- Borys / The Neksos
As others adequately prooved, The Neksos is a title, not a name. Borys could very well have hid his true name for a time, or changed name, or even faked his own death for some purpose. If this was not known by the Champions, Hamanu could very well have been under the impression that Borys was a replacement. the ''new'' Borys could have returned to Rajaat to recieve the Scourge then, at around the same time Hamanu was ordained, which could be the reason for Hamanu's misconception, and their relationship.
Anyways, as for the Neksos being borys, I believe I even have evidence of this, something which caught my eye at first, which I thought might throw off another Champion issue, but if Borys is the Neksos, it all works out:
The Neksos knelt, running his clawed fingers along the precise grooves of each inscriptions [...]
Now, champions are all humans, and humans don't have clawed hands. Dragon kings do, however, but there were no dragon kings at the time of the cleansing wars. Indeed, contrarly to what some seem to believe, it was Borys who initiated the dragon Metamorphosis of the Champions, not Rajaat. This is pretty clear from the WC and the Timeline. Now, since Borys was the one who brought the spell, it stands to reason he might already have started the Dragon Metamorphosis himself. Indeed, only Borys could have been a low-stage metamorphosed Dragon, and thus the Neksos HAS to be Borys.
Irikos
Irikos needs not be a champion, its as simple as that, and I think this is the best way to go in order to respect core material. The left hand of Rajaat clearly predates the Cleansing wars, and he may very well have been left in charge of the war against preservers, even if he was brought to assist in the cleansing wars later on, simply because those really turned ugly (attacking wizards is one thing, but trying to wipe out entire races is a whole other thing).
Anyways, I simply think there is not enough evidence to require Irikos to be a Champion. Don't forget that the ''hands'' titles and the Silencer and Scorcher Swords were created before the cleansing wars, and so those are not necessarily symbols of championhood.
Conclusion
I think this way allows for as much material as possible to be respected, including RaFoaDK.¸
Indeed, the only thing I think would not be covered would be Pennarin, but I know very little on who he's supposed to be, where he is discussed and what is said about him.
Personal note
Frankly, I think allowing for many champions to exist takes away from the setting, not the other way around. From what is described in the core material, I would think Rajaat chose very carefully his champions, and clearly did not bestow this boon unto just anyone. If it was even possiblem, he would simply have mass created champions in order to increase his chances of success.
Anyways, I'd rather think that the Champions of Rajaat were a select and restrained cabal of 15 than to think that they are so many people lost count.
I don't see why other evil threats from the past couldn't exist without the Champion tag. Making more champions simply takes away from the diversity, not the opposite, IMO.
And on a similar note, I don't think the cleansing wars strayed that far from the Tyr Region, simply because the Rebirth originated there as well, and the races of the Rebirth might simply not have strayed that far off when the cleansing wars started.
Anyways, I'm straying from the topic.
The Champions were all dragons. However, they did not become dragon-kings, and Borys did not become the Dragon until they overthrew Rajaat. This would mean that they were metamorphing, if "metamorphing" is even a word, before they overthrew Rajaat.
Borys "made them kings" by allowing them to take the cities of the Tyr region (and beyond, apparently).
That's the way I always took it, at least.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Lynn Abbey got this part right:
The Champions were all dragons. However, they did not become dragon-kings, and Borys did not become the Dragon until they overthrew Rajaat. This would mean that they were metamorphing, if "metamorphing" is even a word, before they overthrew Rajaat.
Borys "made them kings" by allowing them to take the cities of the Tyr region (and beyond, apparently).
That's the way I always took it, at least.
Well, ''canon'' material seems to contradict this:
WC, p.14:
in exchange for the help they provided, Borys gave the Champions that were now loyal to him the following benefits: First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings.
...
''One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time.'' Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
Here its pretty clear that:
- Becoming Kings and becoming dragons were two seperate things, and that the former actually precedes the latter, even though its only by a few sentences in Borys's reward speech (presumably)
- Borys taught the champions how to become dragons kings. Now clearly, if they were already dragons, he didn't need to teach them how that would work out with being a king. Therefore, this can only mean he was teaching them how to become dragons. This is further backed up by the fact that borys talks about completing the full transformation, the result being full dragonhood.
The timeline states:
Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings.
Now this statement is not so clear, as it talks about sorcerer-kings, and not dragons. However, I would wonder what being transformed into a sorcerer-king mean if the champions were already champions, dragons, wizards and psions of great power? As the linking to the elemental vortices seems to be a side effect, and a somewhat unexpected one at that, and that the champions were clearly already great wizards, psions and champions of Rajaat by all accounts, becoming a dragon seems to be the logical ability they gained.
This is also enforced by the timeline talking about begining the transformation, which implies that it is a gradual process, and there is no such process that I am aware of related to being a sorcerer king other than dragonhood (or, mechanics-wise, gaining levels in their classes, which they could do without the help of any ritual)
So I think its pretty clear Borys was the one who initiated the Dragon metamorphosis, not Rajaat.
As for Dregoth rapid ascension, I believe it is written somewhere that Dregoth found some acient halfling artefact/relic/writings under/near Guistenal, which allowed him to complete all steps so quickly. Also, I was under the impression that Dregoth might have been the most powerful of Champions, and he was already immortal before becoming a champion.
Dregoth maybe started the process, taught it to Borys.. bah scratch that.
When going through City by the Silt Sea campaign book on page 3 Dregoth notes that "He and the other Champions - now the sorcerer-kings - were human, and they were so far beyond the other races as to be almost gods. Something very much like the Dragon that the Champions had helped Borys of Ebe to transform into."
So Borys figured out how to transform all by himself. But he could have started his transformation before he rebelled against Rajaat and after the rebellion used the Dark Lens to get past the requirements for the ancient documents never read by another defiler, treasure, and the structure for the transformation. Then had all the new Dragon Kings combine thier power to make him a full dragon.
Going through CbtSS I couldn't find mention of any artifacts that sped up Dregoth's transformation, just the Gate.
Did see a line that may shed light on Borys being the one that screwed up the Tyr Region though. During the animalistic stages "Reason is often superseded by a lust for destruction. Vegitation and animals that do not directly serve the dragon's purpose are targets for it's unending wrath, laid waist in it's quest for power and advancement." (pg 41 of Dragon Kings)
Sorry got off topic a bit there.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Also, I was under the impression that Dregoth might have been the most powerful of Champions, and he was already immortal before becoming a champion.
This seems to be a nod towards RaFoaDK. As near as I can tell, that book is completely and utterly non-canon, for the many many mistakes it makes to quite a lot of things in DS history (not the least of which is that Hamanu is still ruling Urik, not becoming a full Dragon taking a dirt nap for a millenia). I wouldn't put stock in anything it says as being official, unless another product confirms it.
Originally posted by Alzrius
This seems to be a nod towards RaFoaDK. As near as I can tell, that book is completely and utterly non-canon, for the many many mistakes it makes to quite a lot of things in DS history (not the least of which is that Hamanu is still ruling Urik, not becoming a full Dragon taking a dirt nap for a millenia). I wouldn't put stock in anything it says as being official, unless another product confirms it.
Which is why we are nailing out the inconsistancies. The biggest thing about Dregoth is somehow he (in 2e rules) was a level 29 dragon, while the others were only 21-25 or so (except for Borys). And apparently even those who were determined to advance through the metamorphosis (like Kalak, Borys and Kalid-Ma) had to use some means to accelerate the process. Yet Dregoth somehow didn't accelerate the metamorphosis and was nearly complete when he was killed (out of fear by the other SK's who believed he'd go mad like Borys did and would wipe out the rest of the life in the Tyr region). As such, he does seem to have a heads-up on things.
Dregoth did have access to the Gate that allows him to travel to the Outer Planes - however, time doesn't move any faster in those planes than on the material plane (according to just about every source on Planes in the D&D cosmology), so he didn't jump into Hell (well, that's where his gate leads to....) and age really fast. Plus, IIRC, he didn't even have the gate with him until *after* he died - and his metamorphosis stopped upon death (making him eternally "almost there" with the metamorphosis).
These things tend to lead me to believe that Dregoth must have already begun on the process to become a dragon.... sort of a head-start. I tend to think that Rajaat probably pulled Dregoth and Borys aside (or just one of them and the other figured it out later) to test an idea he had for an improvement to his already powerful Champions - the Dragon metamorphosis. He teaches them (or him?) how to start along that path. The process isn't perfected until later when Rajaat makes Hamanu and integrates the change into Hamanu's rebirth as a Champion, making him a sort of anomaly (which, IIRC, even the books of the Prism Pentad note that Hamanu's a unique critter, able to ignore things that are designed to kill the Champions of Rajaat... Actually, they work in reverse for him or something). I did like the idea Lynn Abbey presented about Hamanu's metamorphosis being automatic, and that he figured out how to slow it down by using self control and basically starving himself. She had that for all of them, but I think it fits Hamanu best.
So, when Hamanu discovers what Rajaat plans (he killed the last Troll, then Rajaat says his next task is to kill of the Humans, which doesn't settle with him very well), goes and tells his buddy Borys (I'd say the two were about as close to being friends between Champions as you can get, probably as a form of leverage against each other or something) about it, Borys gets upset, rallys the other Champions, they revolt against Rajaat, trap him, behead Sacha and Wyan, (and probably hand them to Kalak since Hamanu and Borys might not have liked Kalak), then Borys starts the metamorphosis process for all the rebel Champions (except himself, Hamanu and Dregoth who already were along that path), as well as make them into "Sorcerer-Kings" complete with the living-vortex binding thingie that makes them able to grant spells to their followers. They then go their separate ways to their individual cities, and start the "Age of the Sorcerer-Kings".
Hamanu might not even be aware that the other Champions aren't automatically advancing through the metamorphosis like he is. Being buddy-buddy with Borys, he might have learned about the others through his "friend", who could have convinced Hamanu that Kalak wasn't even a "real" Champion (possibly pointing to Uyness having killed the Ogres [in actuality, helping Kalak], stating that Kalak is a farce or something, which made Hamanu believe it). Thus, what Hamanu believes to be true really isn't. However, he has his own issues.
---
Oh well, just juggling some ideas around... And was getting less and less coherent as I went. I hope it makes sense to someone.
Um. Sorry.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Which is why we are nailing out the inconsistancies. The biggest thing about Dregoth is somehow he (in 2e rules) was a level 29 dragon, while the others were only 21-25 or so (except for Borys). And apparently even those who were determined to advance through the metamorphosis (like Kalak, Borys and Kalid-Ma) had to use some means to accelerate the process.
Don't forget Abalach-Re. She tried to accelerate her own metamorphosis in the adventure Forest Maker. It's also worth noting that that adventure had another (minor) artifact in the form of a sword that was meant to slay Dragons.
Yet Dregoth somehow didn't accelerate the metamorphosis and was nearly complete when he was killed (out of fear by the other SK's who believed he'd go mad like Borys did and would wipe out the rest of the life in the Tyr region). As such, he does seem to have a heads-up on things.
Dregoth did have access to the Gate that allows him to travel to the Outer Planes - however, time doesn't move any faster in those planes than on the material plane (according to just about every source on Planes in the D&D cosmology), so he didn't jump into Hell (well, that's where his gate leads to....) and age really fast. Plus, IIRC, he didn't even have the gate with him until *after* he died - and his metamorphosis stopped upon death (making him eternally "almost there" with the metamorphosis).
The question that we're trying to get to the bottom of here is all about Dregoth's animalistic period. Dragons enter that at 25th level, and exit it at 29th. Dregoth, therefore, had already gone through his period of madness. What we don't know is when it happened, where it happened, and how long it lasted.
As you pointed out, Dregoth had not gone off-plane until after his death, so as far as we know, it was on Athas (though several of the requirements for Dragon advancement do require going to the elemental planes). The rest of it remains a mystery.
These things tend to lead me to believe that Dregoth must have already begun on the process to become a dragon.... sort of a head-start.
Shei-Nad's quoting the WC seems to fly in the face of this though. Again, page 14 says:
First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings.
This seems to imply that it was without exception (even Sacha and Wyan would have been included, since they probably hadn't voiced their dissent yet). Hence, the idea that Dregoth was already involved in his Dragon metamorphosis seems somewhat lacking.
The process isn't perfected until later when Rajaat makes Hamanu and integrates the change into Hamanu's rebirth as a Champion, making him a sort of anomaly (which, IIRC, even the books of the Prism Pentad note that Hamanu's a unique critter, able to ignore things that are designed to kill the Champions of Rajaat... Actually, they work in reverse for him or something).
According to PAoA, which is a great work IMHO, the Scorcher and the Scourge can't hurt Hamanu, but the Silencer can.
I did like the idea Lynn Abbey presented about Hamanu's metamorphosis being automatic, and that he figured out how to slow it down by using self control and basically starving himself. She had that for all of them, but I think it fits Hamanu best.
I disliked this intensely. It flew in the face of pretty much everything we'd had about Dragons up to that point. Not to mention that it's concurrent on the fact that, while Rajaat did talk about ascending up beyond mortality with magic and psionics combined, it was Borys who actually did that for all of them. This means, of course, that Myron of Yoram himself was a high-level mage/psionicist, but not a Dragon.
Well, can't find it, but I know I haven't dreamed this, because the intro of City by the Silt Sea also talks about the halfling ruins under Guistenal that allowed him to reach the final steps of his metamorphosis, and that is not where I read this, I'm certain of that.
That said, that same intro does give some pretty convincing evidence that Dregoth had already discovered and started the Dragon Metamorphosis:
CbtSS p.3
''For over a millennium he had toiled for Rajaat's cause by day while seeking to fulfill his own plans in the quiet of the night.''
From the rest of the text, ''his own plans'' reffer to dragonhood, for himself, and for humans (early idea for what would then be drays).
So, this would indeed suggest that Dregoth had learned of the Dragon Metamorphosis spell, and had initiated it before the time of the Rebellion against Rajaat. However, the way its stated, it is doubtful Rajaat would have been the one to instruct him in this spell, as it seems he kept his endeavors secret, and hidden from the First Sorcerer.
In fact, I wouldn't have Borys learn the spell from Rajaat either. The text provided in that intro seem to suggest that dragon metamorphosis had been researched by the nature-masters (or nature-benders) before, perhaps unsuccessfully, and probably by Rajaat at a later time. Either way, some record of this research seems to have survived, allowing Dregoth to learn the spell. Borys could have stumbled on the same knowledge by himself as well.
Anyways, that would still mean that only Borys and Dregoth had started their Dragon metamorphosis, and this was surely hidden from the other champions, and in the case of Dregoth, from Rajaat as well. The rest of the champions would still have been unaware until Borys showed them.
As for Lynn Abbey's appreciation of the Dragon Metamorphosis, does she actually states (or does Hamanu state) that Rajaat initiated the metamorphosis? If not, then the metamorphosis might be inevitable anyways, even if Borys is the one who started it.
Originally posted by Alzrius
Don't forget Abalach-Re. She tried to accelerate her own metamorphosis in the adventure Forest Maker. It's also worth noting that that adventure had another (minor) artifact in the form of a sword that was meant to slay Dragons.
True, and yet she still needed to accelerate to catch up to him.
The question that we're trying to get to the bottom of here is all about Dregoth's animalistic period. Dragons enter that at 25th level, and exit it at 29th. Dregoth, therefore, had already gone through his period of madness. What we don't know is when it happened, where it happened, and how long it lasted.
I worked into my Dragon write-up that there was a Will Save that needed to be achieved during that period. I'm still tweaking the numbers, but basically, I'm thinking that Dregoth was able to resist it, since he didn't accelerate through the process, his will was built up more. Further, even accounting for the idea that he *did* go through an animalistic period (which is something so secret that the other SK's didn't even see it, as they panicked and killed him before he completed the final stage because they feared he would go into that very animalistic rage.
As you pointed out, Dregoth had not gone off-plane until after his death, so as far as we know, it was on Athas (though several of the requirements for Dragon advancement do require going to the elemental planes). The rest of it remains a mystery.
Actually, the requirement to go to the Elemental Planes was in Dragon Kings, which has several "throwback" ideas in it which make reference to outer planes and the like, which doesn't mesh with Athas overall.
Shei-Nad's quoting the WC seems to fly in the face of this though. Again, page 14 says:
First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings.
This seems to imply that it was without exception (even Sacha and Wyan would have been included, since they probably hadn't voiced their dissent yet). Hence, the idea that Dregoth was already involved in his Dragon metamorphosis seems somewhat lacking.
Actually, Sacha and Wyan were dissenters during the rebellion, and tried to stop the others from doing what they did. Plus, I know what it says there, however the way it's written above..... it doesn't really imply that *all* of the Champions were taught the secret of dragonhood.... or maybe they were, but Dregoth just pretended to need to go through the process or something. I wouldn't put it past him to attempt to hide the fact that he already was on the way.
According to PAoA, which is a great work IMHO, the Scorcher and the Scourge can't hurt Hamanu, but the Silencer can.
The PAoA is full of even more conflicting and non-canon material than RaFoaDK. As such, much of it should be looked at more carefully, and not necessarily taken as canon. But yea, the Silencer could harm him. However the Scourge and Scorcher couldn't - which even the Prism Pentad lends credence to (umm.... Crimson Legion, if memory serves).
I disliked this intensely. It flew in the face of pretty much everything we'd had about Dragons up to that point. Not to mention that it's concurrent on the fact that, while Rajaat did talk about ascending up beyond mortality with magic and psionics combined, it was Borys who actually did that for all of them. This means, of course, that Myron of Yoram himself was a high-level mage/psionicist, but not a Dragon.
You aren't getting me on this point. I don't mean that *all* of the dragons weer undergoing the transformation prior to Borys making the SK's with that. I mean that Hamanu, being the "last Champion" and replacement for Myron was "gifted" with several advantages the other SK's didn't complete. Including such things as the ability to more easily kill other SK's (note how frequently Hamanu is present when other SK's die.... or how frequently he does it himself through the history). He also is more resiliant than the others, being able to resist types of damage the other Champions couldn't (the most notable being Scorcher and Scourge). He was also supposed to be the Champion arrayed against Humans, as Rajaat revealed to him which then he revealed to Borys (IIRC this is in more than just RaFoaDK).
I also think that Rajaat implanted him with a sort of "Failsafe" to ensure Rajaat's Cleansing Wars are completed - the Dragon Metamorphosis. However, it's a slightly different, and improved version compared to the one that Borys gave the others. I like to think his is changing him, albeit slowly, and he is terrified of what he is becoming. As such, he fights against the metamorphosis as much as he can, and reigns in his power. After all, Hamanu tends to prefer melee combat over magical/psionic means in just about everything which shows or mentions him fighting (once again, this is shown in more than RaFoaDK - in Crimson Legion he chooses melee combat against Rikus over using his spells like Abalach-Re uses against Sadira in the Amber Enchantress, or any of the SK's besides him in the Cerulean Storm). Hamanu keeps these secrets more to himself, and probably doesn't want the other SK's to discover his advantages, or else he might not survive them all attacking him at once.
Hamanu's an oddity amongst the other SK's, because Rajaat didn't quite make him the same way - he improved on his design, and make him sort of a Champion of Rajaat v2.0 (or v1.5?). Just as Dregoth is unique as being the one that is undead, and so on.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
About Dregoth, and don't have much time right now, but I'm positive I read something about him finding some halfling artifact form the blue age that allowed him to reach near-full dragonhood much quicker. Lets see if I can find it in the next few minutes...
Well, can't find it, but I know I haven't dreamed this, because the intro of City by the Silt Sea also talks about the halfling ruins under Guistenal that allowed him to reach the final steps of his metamorphosis, and that is not where I read this, I'm certain of that.
That intrigues me.... I'll have to search for it.
That said, that same intro does give some pretty convincing evidence that Dregoth had already discovered and started the Dragon Metamorphosis:
CbtSS p.3
''For over a millennium he had toiled for Rajaat's cause by day while seeking to fulfill his own plans in the quiet of the night.''
From the rest of the text, ''his own plans'' reffer to dragonhood, for himself, and for humans (early idea for what would then be drays).
So, this would indeed suggest that Dregoth had learned of the Dragon Metamorphosis spell, and had initiated it before the time of the Rebellion against Rajaat. However, the way its stated, it is doubtful Rajaat would have been the one to instruct him in this spell, as it seems he kept his endeavors secret, and hidden from the First Sorcerer.
Interesting idea. I like it. Sort of makes the Dragon Metamorphosis something that is an abberation or distortion of some old Blue Age Nature-Master secret... Cool.
In fact, I wouldn't have Borys learn the spell from Rajaat either. The text provided in that intro seem to suggest that dragon metamorphosis had been researched by the nature-masters (or nature-benders) before, perhaps unsuccessfully, and probably by Rajaat at a later time. Either way, some record of this research seems to have survived, allowing Dregoth to learn the spell. Borys could have stumbled on the same knowledge by himself as well.
Yea... I really like this. I'll have to reflect that in my Dragon writeup.
Anyways, that would still mean that only Borys and Dregoth had started their Dragon metamorphosis, and this was surely hidden from the other champions, and in the case of Dregoth, from Rajaat as well. The rest of the champions would still have been unaware until Borys showed them.
As for Lynn Abbey's appreciation of the Dragon Metamorphosis, does she actually states (or does Hamanu state) that Rajaat initiated the metamorphosis? If not, then the metamorphosis might be inevitable anyways, even if Borys is the one who started it.
Ok.... hmm.... I still like the idea of Hamanu going through the metamorphosis automatically... maybe Rajaat also discovered what his two Champions did later, and included it into the mix for Hamanu.
And yea - Abbey has Rajaat initiating the metamorphosis for all of the Champions, and made all of them automatically advancing. Of course, she has openly admitted that she wan't able to communicate with or get much information about Dark Sun from the game developers or other authors, so she had to make some "leaps of faith" in her book - making for the innacuracies.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, the requirement to go to the Elemental Planes was in Dragon Kings, which has several "throwback" ideas in it which make reference to outer planes and the like, which doesn't mesh with Athas overall.
Those requirements were also in D&P:tWoA as well. Likewise, no matter how well or not they "meshed" with Athas, it still how things were at the time in the canonity.
Actually, Sacha and Wyan were dissenters during the rebellion, and tried to stop the others from doing what they did.
Meaning they might not have been Dragons at all. Hmm...
The PAoA is full of even more conflicting and non-canon material than RaFoaDK. As such, much of it should be looked at more carefully, and not necessarily taken as canon.
Disagree strongly here. Other than the bit with Kalid-Ma, I don't recall anything in PAoA as being non-canon. (Which would be damn near impossible anyway, since canonity is revoked only with A) A declaration of such from above, that is, TSR/WotC, or B) it is contradicted to the point of being irreconcilable with one or more products; usually newer products, since the de facto assumption is that newer products are more correct than older ones).
I mean that Hamanu, being the "last Champion" and replacement for Myron was "gifted" with several advantages the other SK's didn't complete.
Except nothing (save for RaFoaDK which shouldn't even be considered) suggests that him becoming a Champion was at all different from the others doing so. Being declared a Champion was largely a declaration of rank - it in and of itself had no special abilities given. It was only when Borys used the Dark Lens on them all that they stopped being just humans who were high level defiler/psionicists.
He was also supposed to be the Champion arrayed against Humans, as Rajaat revealed to him which then he revealed to Borys (IIRC this is in more than just RaFoaDK).
Hmm, I'm not sure it is. Can you say where?
Hamanu's an oddity amongst the other SK's, because Rajaat didn't quite make him the same way - he improved on his design, and make him sort of a Champion of Rajaat v2.0 (or v1.5?). Just as Dregoth is unique as being the one that is undead, and so on.
Which is a cool idea. I just see nothing to back it up in the canonity.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And yea - Abbey has Rajaat initiating the metamorphosis for all of the Champions, and made all of them automatically advancing. Of course, she has openly admitted that she wan't able to communicate with or get much information about Dark Sun from the game developers or other authors, so she had to make some "leaps of faith" in her book - making for the innacuracies.
While rather unfair to Abbey, that still doesn't make those scenes any less inaccurate. Heck, it's even more grounds for saying that RaFoaDK, while a great read, just shouldn't even be referred to in discussions of what is official in DS.
Originally posted by Alzrius
While rather unfair to Abbey, that still doesn't make those scenes any less inaccurate. Heck, it's even more grounds for saying that RaFoaDK, while a great read, just shouldn't even be referred to in discussions of what is official in DS.
Well that would be more of what I call "Paramount-logic". Paramount, the company that handles the shows (and movies) for Star Trek, keep changing the rules on what is "canon" and "non-canon" for the Star Trek timeline - they've stated that the Original Series is non-canon, as well as the first two seasons of Next Generation, plus a selection of other episodes from that show, most of the movies, and about half of the episodes from Deep Space Nine, plus the first season of Voyager. They state that none of the novels are canon either. Such rigid, sweeping refusals of things and forced invalidations drive many Star Trek fans a little loopy.
If you start to do that with Dark Sun, you'd find that there are many, many books that have inaccuracies throughout them - including your beloved Psionic Artifacts of Athas. So, marking something as being completely unusable for figuring out on what we mostly agree as being a "official" ruling on these things soon cuts out many of the materials. Heck, even the DS1 and DS2 core books are riddled with inconsistancies between the two, beyond just gamesystem mechanics.
So..... what do you do then? I'd say, rather than invalidating a source, we look at them all, and come up with a consensus, which is what Dawnstealer is trying to do with these posts on "Inconsistencies". Many of these things have been hot topics of debate on again/off again on these forums for a few years. The hope (I believe) is to come up with a consensus, then post it somewhere, so that new people, when they ask about one of them, can be directed to the place it has been posted at.
While yes, Rise & Fall has several errors in it, you can overlook those, and occasionally, I'd believe, even figure out a way to explain some of them in a way that at leasdt a majority of us can agree on. This helps validate the material that is publised for Dark Sun, as well as makes the community stronger on a whole by getting us to agree on things that are, in many ways, the very basics of what is the flavor of Dark Sun. We then can build from this new, stronger foundation to expanding the campaign setting, and possibly advancing it to bigger and better things.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well that would be more of what I call "Paramount-logic". Paramount, the company that handles the shows (and movies) for Star Trek, keep changing the rules on what is "canon" and "non-canon" for the Star Trek timeline - they've stated that the Original Series is non-canon, as well as the first two seasons of Next Generation, plus a selection of other episodes from that show, most of the movies, and about half of the episodes from Deep Space Nine, plus the first season of Voyager. They state that none of the novels are canon either. Such rigid, sweeping refusals of things and forced invalidations drive many Star Trek fans a little loopy.
So?
Paramount if completely within their rights to do that; they own Star Trek. When there is a world/universe/series being created, the owning company/person has complete and total control over what is canon and what is non-canon in it. They can also alter that as they please, that's a perk of being the final authority on a subject. It may drive the fans crazy, but that's life.
'nuff said (on this particular gripe).
If you start to do that with Dark Sun, you'd find that there are many, many books that have inaccuracies throughout them - including your beloved Psionic Artifacts of Athas. So, marking something as being completely unusable for figuring out on what we mostly agree as being a "official" ruling on these things soon cuts out many of the materials.
The difference is that inconsistencies can often be resolved, sometimes without even necessarily needing a further product for clarification: no such resolution is possible with (your beloved) RaFoaDK. It makes basic mistakes in terms of premise, ending, and the body of events it showcases.
That said, some of the things it displays could conceivably be still correct, but this would be because other products decided to "save" that bit (such as, IIRC it says somewhere that Hamanu was the one to talk Borys into rebellion, and Borys lead the revolt then). The same does not hold true for PAoA.
There's also the considerations of what trumps what we an (irreconcilable) conflict occurs. If a novel says one thing, and a game product says something else, and there's no way to resolve the differences, the game product wins, hands down.
Heck, even the DS1 and DS2 core books are riddled with inconsistancies between the two, beyond just gamesystem mechanics.
And DS2 is correct across the board if no explanation for the changes between the two boxed sets is presentable.
So..... what do you do then? I'd say, rather than invalidating a source, we look at them all, and come up with a consensus, which is what Dawnstealer is trying to do with these posts on "Inconsistencies". Many of these things have been hot topics of debate on again/off again on these forums for a few years. The hope (I believe) is to come up with a consensus, then post it somewhere, so that new people, when they ask about one of them, can be directed to the place it has been posted at.
The problem with just establishing a consensus of fans is that that's all it is. While possible explanations can be extrapolated so that potential clashes are explained away, anything more than simply analyzing what's already there strays from the path of canonity. A consensus among fans is, in other words, paper thin, and becomes nothing but fanon if it at all invents something new.
While yes, Rise & Fall has several errors in it, you can overlook those
Inconsistencies can be explained, or muddled over, but never overlooked. Never.
and occasionally, I'd believe, even figure out a way to explain some of them in a way that at leasdt a majority of us can agree on. This helps validate the material that is publised for Dark Sun
Again though, this isn't about what we agree on. We can agree Athas is the Forgotten Realms set far in the future, but that won't make it so. Hence, we have absolutely zero power to validate or invalidate anything at all. Canonity is what matters.
Originally posted by Alzrius
So?
Paramount if completely within their rights to do that; they own Star Trek. When there is a world/universe/series being created, the owning company/person has complete and total control over what is canon and what is non-canon in it. They can also alter that as they please, that's a perk of being the final authority on a subject. It may drive the fans crazy, but that's life.
'nuff said (on this particular gripe).
It was an example. And one that didn't quite fit the situation because of a single point: Wizards of the Coast handed the rights to make & release new Dark Sun material to a fansite, athas.org. The team there has been doing wonderful things in the efforts of releasing materials for 3.5e rules, and many are known to frequent this forum, regularly discussing ideas with those of us who aren't on the "official team". They also regularly do listen to our ideas, and occasionally the ideas get incorperated and included into the Dark Sun materials.
The difference is that inconsistencies can often be resolved, sometimes without even necessarily needing a further product for clarification: no such resolution is possible with (your beloved) RaFoaDK. It makes basic mistakes in terms of premise, ending, and the body of events it showcases.
The inherent flaw in this reasoning is that not everyone sees it the same way. The efforts of Dawnstealer (and myself, along with many others here) is to get everyone on the same sheet of music. It's an attempt to help out the community, through the community.
And for the record - I know that RaFoaDK is flawed, I know there are many inconsistancies with it. I love the story, and like the other novels for Dark Sun, I have frequently used information from them to help bolster and "fill out" parts of the Dark Sun games I've played in an effort to give them more life. I even use the PAoA - I used the term "your beloved" because you seemingly want to have your cake and eat it too - you want to drop RaFoaDK because of it's inconsistancies, and yet another book, which has the same number if not more inconsistancies you have claimed you like and gave the impression that one should be used. My point with that is you can't have it both ways (I seem to be saying this a lot lately in these threads).
That said, some of the things it displays could conceivably be still correct, but this would be because other products decided to "save" that bit (such as, IIRC it says somewhere that Hamanu was the one to talk Borys into rebellion, and Borys lead the revolt then). The same does not hold true for PAoA.
I believe that's in the official timeline.
There's also the considerations of what trumps what we an (irreconcilable) conflict occurs. If a novel says one thing, and a game product says something else, and there's no way to resolve the differences, the game product wins, hands down.
Ahh, but that's your take on it. Another person's is that the novels trump the game system rulebooks, since Troy Denning wrote the Prism Pentad, which pretty much defined the Dark Sun setting. and yet my own is that they can be looked at equally, as flavor & setting material for Dark Sun, and should be weighed individually on their merits, rather than simply because one is a gamesystem book while another is a novel.
And DS2 is correct across the board if no explanation for the changes between the two boxed sets is presentable.
Actually, the funny thing about that is... there are many who believe there is only one real "canon" book for Dark Sun - the Wanderer's Journal, from the DS1 box set. The Wanderer's Chronicle tends to "flesh things out" too much for them, and they like the mystery that the WJ kept while the WC seemingly removed. Are they wrong?
The problem with just establishing a consensus of fans is that that's all it is. While possible explanations can be extrapolated so that potential clashes are explained away, anything more than simply analyzing what's already there strays from the path of canonity. A consensus among fans is, in other words, paper thin, and becomes nothing but fanon if it at all invents something new.
Except that the Dark Sun setting is basically being developed by the fans, for the fans. The athas.org team, while what they do is great, the problem is that it tends to come out slowly. It's an unfortunate part of the process they need to do, with playtesting, editing, drawing new graphics, converting rules, etc. If there was some sort of consensus which people would agree to for Dark Sun, with all of the inconsistancies it has, then we could make new material that expands the setting (going outside the known region), share it, and as a community make the setting better overall. By expanding the setting, the new material provided would have full texts that then could be released through athas.org, without breaking the rules WotC had set for them. The end result being that the fan submitted material eventually could become new "official" material for Dark Sun. This is an extreme possibility, IMHO.
Inconsistencies can be explained, or muddled over, but never overlooked. Never.
And yet, you're asking everyone to do just that by disregarding (overlooking) books because they have inconsistancies. Even worse, you're wanting them to do that with entire books, rather than simply weighing the strengths & weaknesses of different approaches to come to an answer that is liked by the majority.
Again though, this isn't about what we agree on. We can agree Athas is the Forgotten Realms set far in the future, but that won't make it so. Hence, we have absolutely zero power to validate or invalidate anything at all. Canonity is what matters.
Agreeing that Dark Sun is the future of Forgotten Realms is not the same as agreeing which parts of Dark Sun books that have been published are correct and incorrect, or even how to reconsile the differences within the setting. You're taking an external source from the setting (Forgotten Realms) and applying it to the discussion directly into Dark Sun, while what we're trying to do here is use Dark Sun to figure out Dark Sun and overall improve Dark Sun. It's all an internal thing.
And, for the record, I'd say that canonity isn't the point of these threads - consensus between those of use here as to what works and doesn't work for the setting, to get everyone on the same page, is. Or at least, that's how Dawnstealer had started these inconsistancy threads on.
---
Regardless, this argument is derailing the thread, which is what I'd like to continue discussing (something about who is and isn't a Champion, if I remember... :D), rather than the points of canon material and why it's important to ignore/include various books from Dark Sun all together.
Edit: Also, please don't take my replies as in any way a personal attack against you. I tend to talk (and type) with a sense of authority, and occasionally can be.... less than tactful iwhen presenting my arguement. I've been working on improving it, but occasionally I slip up. Don't worry, I generally don't take things people write here personally (just not the kind of guy I am). I just want to make it clear that I'm usually reaching for a point I'm trying to present, not initiate some sort of flame war. Consider this a sort of "disclaimer", as a "just in case" response so that we hopefully don't degrade the arguement beyond a healthy discussion
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
It was an example. And one that didn't quite fit the situation because of a single point: Wizards of the Coast handed the rights to make & release new Dark Sun material to a fansite, athas.org.
Which doesn't mean they don't retain those rights, so they can have new material made for it in their periodicals if they want, not to mention retain the ability to declare what is and is not canon, or even yank athas.org's official license if they desire.
The team there has been doing wonderful things in the efforts of releasing materials for 3.5e rules, and many are known to frequent this forum, regularly discussing ideas with those of us who aren't on the "official team". They also regularly do listen to our ideas, and occasionally the ideas get incorperated and included into the Dark Sun materials.
Ain't it cool?
The inherent flaw in this reasoning is that not everyone sees it the same way.
Which doesn't matter, since how an individual sees things has no effect whatsoever on canonity.
The efforts of Dawnstealer (and myself, along with many others here) is to get everyone on the same sheet of music. It's an attempt to help out the community, through the community.
Deciding to form a consensus on things that don't yet have a canon answer doesn't help the community though. It just convinces people that official answers have been handed down when they haven't been.
I even use the PAoA - I used the term "your beloved" because you seemingly want to have your cake and eat it too - you want to drop RaFoaDK because of it's inconsistancies, and yet another book, which has the same number if not more inconsistancies you have claimed you like and gave the impression that one should be used. My point with that is you can't have it both ways (I seem to be saying this a lot lately in these threads).
I'm not trying to have it both ways; that's the way it is. RaFoaDK is non-canon. The total number of flaws in it remove anything that it would otherwise have added. The events of the official timeline are already logged elsewhere (as you noted), and none of the other events of the book ever happened; no army of Nibenay, Gulg, and Guistenal ever marched on Urik, Hamanu never became a full Dragon, etc. Add in to that that more than a few of the smaller things about the book are incorrect, and it quickly becomes obvious the book adds nothing. Hence, non-canon.
The same cannot be said for PAoA, which adds quite a lot and has very few inconsistencies.
Ahh, but that's your take on it.
No, that's actually the official stance on it.
Actually, the funny thing about that is... there are many who believe there is only one real "canon" book for Dark Sun - the Wanderer's Journal, from the DS1 box set. The Wanderer's Chronicle tends to "flesh things out" too much for them, and they like the mystery that the WJ kept while the WC seemingly removed. Are they wrong?
Absolutely wrong. Canonity exists external to and independant of any individual's opinions.
Except that the Dark Sun setting is basically being developed by the fans, for the fans.
Not by the fans. Only the developers at athas.org get to create new official materials. We don't.
The athas.org team, while what they do is great, the problem is that it tends to come out slowly. It's an unfortunate part of the process they need to do, with playtesting, editing, drawing new graphics, converting rules, etc. If there was some sort of consensus which people would agree to for Dark Sun, with all of the inconsistancies it has, then we could make new material that expands the setting (going outside the known region), share it, and as a community make the setting better overall.
No we can't. We can't create new material. We have not been empowered with the rights to do so. A consensus would do nothing, save perhaps to stifle new thoughts on older problems until an official solution is given.
By expanding the setting, the new material provided would have full texts that then could be released through athas.org, without breaking the rules WotC had set for them. The end result being that the fan submitted material eventually could become new "official" material for Dark Sun. This is an extreme possibility, IMHO.
Actually, I'd think the people at athas.org would be wise not to use materials written by people outside of their own development team, for a host of reasons.
That said, no text for DS is official until either the athas.org people or WotC says it is. What processes that occur before that are irrelevant, because for the canon setting, they don't exist.
And yet, you're asking everyone to do just that by disregarding (overlooking) books because they have inconsistancies.
Incorrect. Those inconsistencies have been looked at, and found unable to be reconciled. The book is non-canon on its own lack of merits, not because its being ignored.
Even worse, you're wanting them to do that with entire books, rather than simply weighing the strengths & weaknesses of different approaches to come to an answer that is liked by the majority.
Because what the majority likes has no matter at all. That's how it is when only a singular authority has control over a subject, as is the case here.
Agreeing that Dark Sun is the future of Forgotten Realms is not the same as agreeing which parts of Dark Sun books that have been published are correct and incorrect, or even how to reconsile the differences within the setting.
It's exactly the same. You're purporting that some sort of community consensus would be almost the same thing as what is and is not canon. It isn't. You can all agree that Irikos was never a Champion, but that doesn't make it so - that agreement has as much validity (or lack thereof) as the person who says that Irikos was a Champion who simply died and was replaced by Abalach-Re. There may be things that might possibly suggest one way or the other, but we don't actually know, and no amount of consensus will change that.
And, for the record, I'd say that canonity isn't the point of these threads - consensus between those of use here as to what works and doesn't work for the setting, to get everyone on the same page, is. Or at least, that's how Dawnstealer had started these inconsistancy threads on.
Except that such a consensus is arbitrary. Even if you could get everyone to agree (something that I don't think can be done), that wouldn't change anything. Everyone seemed to agree that there wouldn't be any more dragon-kings before, and now, regardless of that, Atzetuk is one.
Regardless, this argument is derailing the thread, which is what I'd like to continue discussing (something about who is and isn't a Champion, if I remember... :D), rather than the points of canon material and why it's important to ignore/include various books from Dark Sun all together.
I couldn't agree more. And now back to your regularly scheduled thread. :D
Edit: Also, please don't take my replies as in any way a personal attack against you. I tend to talk (and type) with a sense of authority, and occasionally can be.... less than tactful iwhen presenting my arguement. I've been working on improving it, but occasionally I slip up. Don't worry, I generally don't take things people write here personally (just not the kind of guy I am). I just want to make it clear that I'm usually reaching for a point I'm trying to present, not initiate some sort of flame war. Consider this a sort of "disclaimer", as a "just in case" response so that we hopefully don't degrade the arguement beyond a healthy discussion
Now this is the sort of maturity most message boards need more of! (and that's not sarcasm!)
I tend to do the same things (authority, etc) when I post on a subject I know well. I won't take it personally if you don't. ;)
Interesting idea. I like it. Sort of makes the Dragon Metamorphosis something that is an abberation or distortion of some old Blue Age Nature-Master secret... Cool.
Maybe there was an ancient ritual to "advance" for a Psion/Druid or Psion/Cleric to somthing new and different. Rajaat (or perhaps Dreagoth or Borys) found it and applied it to Psion/Defiler principles which happened to turn the users into dragons. "Rediscovering" the ritual again allowed Psion/Preservers to use it, which happened to be closer to the original version than the one the Sorcerer Kings used. This could explain why Orien was able to switch perhaps?
Anyways, just a wacky idea. I'll let you get back to your argument ;)
If anything was going to have some kind of metamorphosis type effect, wouldn't it be safe to presume it would be one of the oldest of the psion class combos? It could be this innitial idea that all other metamorphosis types come from. Otherwise, you have the illogical conclusion that there are five odd powergroups all devising their own little uber transformations entirely independandtly of one another.
So, who came first, the druid or the cleric? I'd opt for the cleric myself, but their influence during the blue age is entirely unknown. It may have been the druid if you think of druids as a distilled-through-the-ages kind of nature master. Either way, perhaps this innitial type of metamorphosis is what spawned the others (or at least gave the others, Rajaat/Borys and Keltis mainly, the idea to work from).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
So, who came first, the druid or the cleric? I'd opt for the cleric myself, but their influence during the blue age is entirely unknown. It may have been the druid if you think of druids as a distilled-through-the-ages kind of nature master. Either way, perhaps this innitial type of metamorphosis is what spawned the others (or at least gave the others, Rajaat/Borys and Keltis mainly, the idea to work from).
The first appearance of elemental clerics is indeed in the Blue Age (4th World's Age, Year of King's Slumber). Evil elemental clerics ally with the nature benders in the Year of Enemy's Reverence of the same Age. They (and the nature benders) are ultimately defeated by the nature masters by 7th World's Age, Year of Island's Agitation.
(I don't see any reason that druids couldn't have arisen first, though. The timeline is typically vague on this point and doesn't mention druids at all until 167th King's Age (Enemy's Reverence), when the jihad against druids is called for.)
Interesting idea. I like it. Sort of makes the Dragon Metamorphosis something that is an abberation or distortion of some old Blue Age Nature-Master secret... Cool.
I really like this too. It also ties in with the (apparent) rhulisti avangion in TotDL that I keep banging on about ;)
The question that we're trying to get to the bottom of here is all about Dregoth's animalistic period. Dragons enter that at 25th level, and exit it at 29th.
Actually, I hate to interrupt the novel above, because it's filled with great ideas, but this thread is dedicated specifically to whether or not Kalak, Irikos, and a few others were actually Champions or not.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Actually, FDW brings up something interesting here.
If anything was going to have some kind of metamorphosis type effect, wouldn't it be safe to presume it would be one of the oldest of the psion class combos? It could be this innitial idea that all other metamorphosis types come from. Otherwise, you have the illogical conclusion that there are five odd powergroups all devising their own little uber transformations entirely independandtly of one another.
So, who came first, the druid or the cleric? I'd opt for the cleric myself, but their influence during the blue age is entirely unknown. It may have been the druid if you think of druids as a distilled-through-the-ages kind of nature master. Either way, perhaps this innitial type of metamorphosis is what spawned the others (or at least gave the others, Rajaat/Borys and Keltis mainly, the idea to work from).
Actually, if you recall, Psions weren't around in the Blue Age. Psionics were part of the rebirth.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Actually, I hate to interrupt the novel above, because it's filled with great ideas, but this thread is dedicated specifically to whether or not Kalak, Irikos, and a few others were actually Champions or not.
And if you read a little further, both of us agreed, and decided to get back on track with the thread's original topic
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I think we're pretty much done with it anyway, just pointing it out.
So, what's the verdict?
I would suggest:
- 16 champions of the WC as only champions
- Kalak a champion, though perhaps not a dragon king (but this is not really the issue here anyways, so it doesn't matter)
- The Neksos = Borys
- Irikos NOT a champion. Warlord against the preservers who assisted in the cleansing wars when need arose.
The 16 champions are all the champions (including Kalak). They are all sorcerer kings (including Kalak).
The Neksos was just a neat word for "general" or something, and was just Borys called by rank instead of name.
Irikos might have been a champion in the classic sense: a person that fights for a cause, but not in the DS sense, that he was a dragon-king in the making.
Unofficially:
As always, do what works for your campaign. I like the idea of there being many champions spread across the face of Athas, faded from time and memory. In this case, the Wanderer was reporting biased, or flat-out erroneous, information.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
They are all sorcerer kings (including Kalak).
Actually, only those who rebelled against Rajaat are SK's. Sacha & Wyan were on Rajaat's side during the revolt, and Myron never got the chance.
Sorcerer King = Dragon King who can grant his followers spells, Dragon who controls a city-state This is what Borys bestowed upon the rebels at the Pristine Tower. (WC pg 14)
Dragon King = Dragon who controls a city-state
Dragon = Magical/Psionic process making one able to cast Psionic Enchantments, Utilize obsidian orbs to draw life energy from animals to power spells, gain immortality, and the sbility to speak any language (DK and Preservers and Defilers)
Correct? Did I miss anything? I would assume the rest of the folks who were generals may have been assigned a minor race to kill or served under the Champions. These generals could be confused with Champions, and may even tell thier subjects that they are so that they stay in line more.
In the end, I'd say Kalak is in fact a Champion of Rajaat, and Hamanu's talk of him is meant to confuse others or rewrite history. There was a total of 16 Champsions of Rajaat as named in the WC. I would also go with Irikos being a warlord or general and the Neksos is Borys.
Originally posted by Alzrius
Disagree strongly here. Other than the bit with Kalid-Ma, I don't recall anything in PAoA as being non-canon. (Which would be damn near impossible anyway, since canonity is revoked only with A) A declaration of such from above, that is, TSR/WotC, or B) it is contradicted to the point of being irreconcilable with one or more products; usually newer products, since the de facto assumption is that newer products are more correct than older ones).
- There is the bit about Sadira's mentor, Ktandeo, being a halfling wizard... in a rules era when halflings couldn't be wizards...
- There is a psionic item that was supposedly created by a "seeress of Raam" over a thousand years before Tarandas of Raam developed Athasian psionics.
Those are ones just remembered.
Thing with "Rise and Fall" is that it can be viewed through the prism of it being a "diary" of Hamanu's. Even in diaries people aren't even truthful with themselves. A rulebook is a compendium of what is.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Zmaj
Champion of Rajaat = Bestowed by Rajaat turning the Yellow sun Red. Powers : Immortality and the ability to draw power from living beings through an obsidian orb. (WC pges 12-13)
As well as being tasked to exterminate an entire race off of Athas.
Sorcerer King = Dragon King who can grant his followers spells, Dragon who controls a city-state This is what Borys bestowed upon the rebels at the Pristine Tower. (WC pg 14)
Three Champions were never Sorcerer-Kings: Sacha and Wyan who sided with their master Rajaat during the rebellion, and Myron, who was dead & replaced before the rebellion happened. Another thing to note - technically, Oronis is a "Sorcerer-King" in that he has the ability to grant spells to his own Templars, however he is not a Dragon-King. More of an Avangion-Advisor to the people of New Kurn, and a pretend Sorcerer-King to the people of Old Kurn.
Dragon King = Dragon who controls a city-state
Dragon = Magical/Psionic process making one able to cast Psionic Enchantments, Utilize obsidian orbs to draw life energy from animals to power spells, gain immortality, and the sbility to speak any language (DK and Preservers and Defilers)
And an Avangion is a Magical/Psionic process making one able to cast Psionic Enchantments, and draw on their own energy from within to power spells without harming their surroundings, as well as the ability to speak any language. Even tho, the "speak any language" part always seems a bit weak and relatively lame to me.
Correct? Did I miss anything? I would assume the rest of the folks who were generals may have been assigned a minor race to kill or served under the Champions. These generals could be confused with Champions, and may even tell thier subjects that they are so that they stay in line more.
Possibly, I think Irikos was important to the war against the Preservers that preceeded the Cleansing Wars. He didn't make the cut for becoming a Champion - maybe he wasn't Psionically-inclined?
In the end, I'd say Kalak is in fact a Champion of Rajaat, and Hamanu's talk of him is meant to confuse others or rewrite history. There was a total of 16 Champsions of Rajaat as named in the WC. I would also go with Irikos being a warlord or general and the Neksos is Borys.
Exactly how I think it should be.