Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 slivvy_gaidin Mar 29, 2004 5:09:52	I've only just become interested in vampires, after watching "Interview with a Vampire". I've turned to look at them in the MM and Ravenloft book, and I see that they have a level drain ability. Why? Not mechanically, but flavour wise. Can anyone give me an example, from literature or folk stories, of where they do it. All I was aware of was the blood drain (draining Constitution).
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 6:53:57	Originally posted by Slivvy Gaidin I've only just become interested in vampires, after watching "Interview with a Vampire". I've turned to look at them in the MM and Ravenloft book, and I see that they have a level drain ability. Why? Not mechanically, but flavour wise. Can anyone give me an example, from literature or folk stories, of where they do it. All I was aware of was the blood drain (draining Constitution). I put it down to an early design flaw in the AD&D game. The vampires bite was completely ignored, and I think this was because as undead got more and more powerful level drain attacks were seen as a suitable step up in combat power. The bite hardly seemed a suitable combat weapon (well, not until I introduced SabreToothed Vampires, but that is another and rather weird story) so it was ignored.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 6:57:43	I use it to keep high-powered Ravenloft characters in check.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 9:28:00	Really it was to make them more fierce combatants. I never liked the fact that they could level drain with a touch, so I tend to ignore it. Most vampires are nosferatu in my campaigns anyway. I like 'em more.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 9:42:00	Same here. It's been years since I've used a level drain. I could never justify them unless they were memory drain. I switched to Constitution drain pretty early.
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 9:57:52	I suspect (but I'm not sure where to start looking) that level drain predates AD&D and may have even originated back with the Chainmail tactical rules.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 10:41:27	Originally posted by Brandi I suspect (but I'm not sure where to start looking) that level drain predates AD&D and may have even originated back with the Chainmail tactical rules. I think you are right. I heard that a while ago on the old K site.
#8 slivvy_gaidin Mar 29, 2004 19:33:16	I hadn't really taken an interest in vampires before watching the movie, so I didn't realise that nosferatu didn't have the level drain. I think that I'd probably use nosferatu a lot more than the other vampires. They fit my concept of 'vampire' more than some feral level draining killing machine. Thanks for the responses, everyone.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 1:42:23	Originally posted by Brandi I suspect (but I'm not sure where to start looking) that level drain predates AD&D and may have even originated back with the Chainmail tactical rules. I'm sorry, i'm not that old. he he he.
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 1:49:46	I don't know if Brandi is right about chainmail, but the level drain does go way back. I don't remember if they were in the old "Expert" set or if my first brush with them was with the AD&D (1.0) Monster Manuel. I do know that stat drains were few and far between in the earlier incarnations of the game (shadows maybe and...?) I think the game designers logic was that undead were powered by a connection to the negative energy plane (well except mummies...). Vampires, as one of the most powerful types of undead, had the ability to drain as a reflection of the connection to NEP. Just a guess. I also prefer the Nosferatu style of vampire to reflect the creature from literature. -Eric Gorman
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 12:02:38	Originally posted by HvF I think the game designers logic was that undead were powered by a connection to the negative energy plane (well except mummies...). Interestingly, Gary Gygax, in the d20 Slayer's Guide to Undead, said that the mummy thing was a mistake. Why it was never corrected for lo these many years is beyond me, except maybe that until they started explicitly defining cleric behavior as channelling positive/negative energy in D&D3.x it had absolutely no effect on game play, except for making the Van Richten's Guide writers scramble for justification... ;) Oh, and I happen to have an AD&D 1st ed Monster Manual around. Only 4 creatures in it caused any kind of stat damage: bone devils (save or lose 1-4 Str for 10 rounds from a tail hit), lamias (drain 1 Wis by touch), quasits (save or lose 1-4 Dex for 2-12 rounds from a tail hit), and shadows (drain 1 Str by touch).
#12 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 15:11:08	If my memory serves me correctly, many cultures have different kinds of vampire. There are probably several different kinds of folkloric vapmire in Europe. The vampires you all are thinking of comes from Bram Stoker's Dracula. Some vampire were merely apperitions that would come to a person over the course of several nights and drain a persons life force. A person could suffer from the nocternal visits of a vampire and not have fang marks on the neck. In fact, I suspect few people throughout history who were visited by vampires had bite marks. The accual culpret in most to all of these cases was some form of illness. One person would die from this illness. After that many more people would become ill. The first person to die was obviously the guilty party and was a vampire. Digging up the body was all that it took to confirm there suspitions. Do to decomposition the body would bloat and force a little blood to trickle from the mouth(both signs it had been feeding). Nails also would appear to have grown. Staking a vampire could cause built up gasses from the inside to be forced out causing a moan. Sometimes the body was little more than bone. To stop the vampire, many method were used. You could force a stake through its chest and into the ground making it impossible for the vampire to get up. You could throw a net in it's coffin, because vampires couldn't resist untieing knots. You could jumble up his bones so that he couldn't put himself together again. The last one I remember is that you could cut out it's heart and start it on fire. Then you take the ashes, mix them with water, and drink it. Invariably digging up this corpes would spread a little more illness around. I may be off on a few tidbits. My point is that modern vampires differ from folkloric vampires in several respects. Not to mention there is a lot of folk lore about them out there. Try sprinning the unkillable vampire on your players once. Let them succede my merely keeping the vampire from prowling the night.
#13 slivvy_gaidin Mar 31, 2004 18:34:35	Thats some top-notch information. Thanks Empty Fingers!
#14 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 14:10:24	Your welcome.
#15 zombiegleemax Apr 03, 2004 2:59:22	I think the level drain has to do with the ability that vampires have in folklore to weaken their victims though something like hypnotization would make a bit more sense.
#16 slivvy_gaidin Apr 03, 2004 8:04:43	Well, in the movie (Interview with a Vamp.), the victims of the vampires did tend to get sorta paralyzed when the vamps were munching them. The level drain almost could fit this action, though the victims would also often break free of the stunning effect if the vamps didn't munch them fast enough.
#17 rucht_lilavivat Apr 08, 2004 11:25:16	I have an interesting response to this thread...if anyone's reading it anymore anyway. I asked Skip Williams this very same question when D&D 3rd Edition first came out. Besides, it was a new edition. Why keep level-draining attacks at all? His response: Vampires have level-draining attacks because the original designer(s) of the D&D game wanted vampires (and other creatures) to be fearsome. They wanted players to be afraid of fighting them. And to a certain extent, they were right. Back in 1st and 2nd edition, I remember people cringing at the idea. "Level-drain? Eeew. You go fight it." Now, there is still a little bit of that "out of game" fear. I don't know many players who are keen to the possibility of level-draining opponents. Skip and the other designers tried to moderate vampire attacks in 3rd Edition. They still wanted there to be that bit of "player fear" in their attacks, but not for it to be as ridiculous as it was in 1st or 2nd edition. I think they got the right balance.
#18 slivvy_gaidin Apr 08, 2004 21:16:42	I'm still reading it. Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking that if I use a BBEG vampire, then I will have a Nosferatu. I'f I'm throwing lots of weaker vamps at the party, then I would probably use normal level draining vampires (or vampire spawn)
#19 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2004 0:01:26	This will help you out a lot, I use it often http://www.essortment.com/in/Culture.Myth.&.Legend/ Google search for Vampire myth and lore.
#20 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2004 19:48:29	I have another site that might intrest everybody. You can find out the folklore of many different regions. http://www.pantheon.org/ I recomend this site. I believe it truely is one of the best.
#21 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 5:16:07	I've always thought of level draining more as the destruction of the soul and force of will, so I'd say vampiric level drain is more like a spiritual disease.
#22 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 14:13:13	I've always felt that level drain was absurd, and that it was a drastically unfair thing to inflict on your players. After all, sucking experience points is just lame (Far too game-mechanical). I've never been a fan of beating the players over the head with the "this is just a game about rules and stats" stick. There are so many better ways to frighten your players and their characters than by simply threatening to take away their hard-earned xp/levels. I'm actually developing a nice list of alternative powers for undead. If there's interest, I'll post when it's done. VNM
#23 slivvy_gaidin Apr 15, 2004 19:54:10	I'm actually developing a nice list of alternative powers for undead. If there's interest, I'll post when it's done. Definitely, post it. I'm interested.
#24 zombiegleemax Apr 16, 2004 0:21:03	I'd say the reason the level drain feels wrong in RavenLoft is that it violates one of it's oldest, and I feel finest, rules established in the Black Box: Never mention game mechanics!
#25 rotipher Apr 18, 2004 12:58:14	FWIW, I wish they'd at least *re-named* the power for 3E/3.5, the same way they named so many other powers and abilities. Call it "energy drain" and it screams game-mechanics; re-title it something like "soulrend" and it'd be a lot more appealing.
#26 zombiegleemax Apr 23, 2004 2:12:51	I didn't read this one for a long time...since I know this subject has been talked about over and over again. Finally when I got around to reading it, I felt compeled to offer my two cents worth. I remember some old Sci Fi shows, including I think one Buck Rogers episode, where space type vampires would suck the life out of people......this may be the only referance outside of D&D. And I remember being very afraid as a player to fight undead with level draining ability.......I was almost fearless and reckless until we opened a door in a dungeon and I realised there was a Wight standing there.......................I closed the door.