Gladiators - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Gladiators

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
aikijim13
Mar 29, 2004 14:46:42 I didn't see this discussed in any past threads, so I figured it was safe to talk about it :D

Does anyone else thing that Gladiators are underpowered in 3rd Edition (according to athas.org rules)?

In my game we're going to remove Exotic Weapon Proficiency from Master of Weapons, and replace it with Weapon Specialization.

at 1st, 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th Level the Gladiator receives an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Does anyone think this is overpowerd? Still underpowered? Never was underpowered? Let me know!
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 29, 2004 15:03:34 I don't think they are overpowered. Gladiators are Athas's Paladins (w/o the religion, good feelings, etc.)
#3
aikijim13
Mar 30, 2004 9:37:26 I just realized that I was referring to the old 3.0 edition Gladiator not the new one...

... I'm stupid...

... then again, I am the one refusing to convert to 3.5

Jim
#4
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 18:12:59 Most of 3.5 is backwards compatible.

Gladiators are Athas's Paladins (w/o the religion, good feelings, etc.)

Or the divine/holy powers, or the spells, or the milk drinking, helping little old ladys cross the street, or the Boy Scout club meets on Friday nights instead of ale and wenches at the local pub like the rest of the party.

Wow, DS gladiators are more like anti-paladins than anything ;)
#5
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 18:35:42
Originally posted by Mach 2.5
Wow, DS gladiators are more like anti-paladins than anything

:D I meant it in the sense that they might be a little more powerful than other character classes.
#6
fiendish_dire_weasel
Mar 30, 2004 20:44:18 Paladins are a little more powerful due to severe alignment restrictions and code of conduct. I don't see how Gladiators have the same restrictions justifying them being more powerful.
#7
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 21:03:34 Ok, I give up. Bad example. :thumbsdow
#8
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2004 0:38:34
I don't see how Gladiators have the same restrictions justifying them being more powerful.

Just curious, but by this statement, do you mean to say that the gladiator as written (speaking of the 3.5 version) is more powerful? I've not noticed any major difference myself in my game, so I'm wondering if you think differently and in what way.
#9
fiendish_dire_weasel
Mar 31, 2004 1:06:22 I haven't really looked that closley. It was suggested that they were and then suggested that it was Ok if they were because they were "like Paladins", then I disagreed that they were like Paladins becuase they had no limitations, insinuating that without limitations, they shouldn't be more powerful.

I thought I did a good job of not actually commenting on the power level / balance on either the Paladin or Gladiator.

:D
#10
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2004 1:54:39 Gotcha!

Bam . . . down goes another. (j/k)

The stance taken by the athas.org team was not to allow role-playing bonuses or penalties to any of the classes in an attempt to bring any of the classes in line with one another (this was mostly an issue with defilers, who do indeed suffer the most drastic role-playing penalty of any published class anywhere that I've ever seen). Just a little FYI.

Only asking because I'm still undecided about them. There are only two gladiators in both of my groups (I restarted my old one again! WOO-HOO), but the problem is that one is being played by a complete twit (who thankfully has no internet connection to read this), while the other is played by someone who keeps making kreen and half-giant gladiators, making it a little hard to playtest.
#11
korvar
Mar 31, 2004 15:43:55 I once was attempting to put together something for Gladiators that would mean they got their extra abilities in fighting because they did nothing else.

If you look at the historical Roman gladiators, they were proficient at fighting because their entire life was training. They were given no time to socialise, go to the pub with friends, have a family... so they didn't learn anything other than fighting.

I also had a half-formed idea that there would be various bonuses that could only be maintained by a punishing training schedule. For example: Proficiency With All Weapons could only be maintaned if they spent 4 hours a week practicing with a variety of weapons. Extra armour class could come from x hours a week practicing with one or more partners trying to hit you while you avoided them. And so forth. Bonuses for having a skilled trainer, equipment, and so on and so on.

So the Gladiators get their extra fighting abilities by giving up pretty much anything that isn't fighting, or training to fight.

Not sure how this'd translate into D&D, I run Dark Sun in the Hero System, where you just pay points for everything :D
#12
Kamelion
Mar 31, 2004 16:11:04 What about something like the Vow of Poverty from Exalted Deeds? But it's not a vow of poverty, it's a vow of combat. Or something. And it gives related bonuses over character levels, assuming that the character follows a regimen that is a restrictive as the poverty one in BoED.

(Hmmm. This thought just sprang to mind as I read the thread so I'm throwing it out - got no real hard and fast ideas but it struck me that this might fit the "gladiator stable" feel you're referring to...)
#13
fiendish_dire_weasel
Mar 31, 2004 22:59:28 Honestly, the more I think about it (and I have been a fair amount latley) the more I think Gladiators should probably be just a Fighter variant with some extra class skills (Bluff, Perform & Sense Motive rather than Ride & Handle Animal and maybe Climb & Jump). Add in a few new Fighter bonus feats (like armor optimization and hitting for subdual damage) and it seems good enough to me. Multiclass with Rogue or Barbarian for some different styles, add in some Wilder for some combat oriented Psionic extras (is that legal in the arena?). Allow the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from Complete Warrior and it seems to cover all the bases.

Maybe a "Master Gladiator" PrC would be cool, for the true arena vetrans. My big concern would be that a Gladiator core-class would end up making all gladiators kind of cookie cutter. Having them based around bonus feats (as Fighter varients) would add more diversity, as would multi-classing. I like things that promote players to put more thought into thier characters, not to mention easier to balance out (under the assumtion the Fighter is balanced against the other classes).

Thats just one infernal mustelid's opinion though.
#14
nytcrawlr
Apr 01, 2004 14:36:25 This freaking rocks, lol.

What a great april fool's joke.

I pity the fool!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 aikijim13 Mar 29, 2004 14:46:42	I didn't see this discussed in any past threads, so I figured it was safe to talk about it :D Does anyone else thing that Gladiators are underpowered in 3rd Edition (according to athas.org rules)? In my game we're going to remove Exotic Weapon Proficiency from Master of Weapons, and replace it with Weapon Specialization. at 1st, 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th Level the Gladiator receives an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Does anyone think this is overpowerd? Still underpowered? Never was underpowered? Let me know!
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 15:03:34	I don't think they are overpowered. Gladiators are Athas's Paladins (w/o the religion, good feelings, etc.)
#3 aikijim13 Mar 30, 2004 9:37:26	I just realized that I was referring to the old 3.0 edition Gladiator not the new one... ... I'm stupid... ... then again, I am the one refusing to convert to 3.5 Jim
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 18:12:59	Most of 3.5 is backwards compatible. Gladiators are Athas's Paladins (w/o the religion, good feelings, etc.) Or the divine/holy powers, or the spells, or the milk drinking, helping little old ladys cross the street, or the Boy Scout club meets on Friday nights instead of ale and wenches at the local pub like the rest of the party. Wow, DS gladiators are more like anti-paladins than anything ;)
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 18:35:42	Originally posted by Mach 2.5 Wow, DS gladiators are more like anti-paladins than anything :D I meant it in the sense that they might be a little more powerful than other character classes.
#6 fiendish_dire_weasel Mar 30, 2004 20:44:18	Paladins are a little more powerful due to severe alignment restrictions and code of conduct. I don't see how Gladiators have the same restrictions justifying them being more powerful.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 21:03:34	Ok, I give up. Bad example. :thumbsdow
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 0:38:34	I don't see how Gladiators have the same restrictions justifying them being more powerful. Just curious, but by this statement, do you mean to say that the gladiator as written (speaking of the 3.5 version) is more powerful? I've not noticed any major difference myself in my game, so I'm wondering if you think differently and in what way.
#9 fiendish_dire_weasel Mar 31, 2004 1:06:22	I haven't really looked that closley. It was suggested that they were and then suggested that it was Ok if they were because they were "like Paladins", then I disagreed that they were like Paladins becuase they had no limitations, insinuating that without limitations, they shouldn't be more powerful. I thought I did a good job of not actually commenting on the power level / balance on either the Paladin or Gladiator. :D
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 1:54:39	Gotcha! Bam . . . down goes another. (j/k) The stance taken by the athas.org team was not to allow role-playing bonuses or penalties to any of the classes in an attempt to bring any of the classes in line with one another (this was mostly an issue with defilers, who do indeed suffer the most drastic role-playing penalty of any published class anywhere that I've ever seen). Just a little FYI. Only asking because I'm still undecided about them. There are only two gladiators in both of my groups (I restarted my old one again! WOO-HOO), but the problem is that one is being played by a complete twit (who thankfully has no internet connection to read this), while the other is played by someone who keeps making kreen and half-giant gladiators, making it a little hard to playtest.
#11 korvar Mar 31, 2004 15:43:55	I once was attempting to put together something for Gladiators that would mean they got their extra abilities in fighting because they did nothing else. If you look at the historical Roman gladiators, they were proficient at fighting because their entire life was training. They were given no time to socialise, go to the pub with friends, have a family... so they didn't learn anything other than fighting. I also had a half-formed idea that there would be various bonuses that could only be maintained by a punishing training schedule. For example: Proficiency With All Weapons could only be maintaned if they spent 4 hours a week practicing with a variety of weapons. Extra armour class could come from x hours a week practicing with one or more partners trying to hit you while you avoided them. And so forth. Bonuses for having a skilled trainer, equipment, and so on and so on. So the Gladiators get their extra fighting abilities by giving up pretty much anything that isn't fighting, or training to fight. Not sure how this'd translate into D&D, I run Dark Sun in the Hero System, where you just pay points for everything :D
#12 Kamelion Mar 31, 2004 16:11:04	What about something like the Vow of Poverty from Exalted Deeds? But it's not a vow of poverty, it's a vow of combat. Or something. And it gives related bonuses over character levels, assuming that the character follows a regimen that is a restrictive as the poverty one in BoED. (Hmmm. This thought just sprang to mind as I read the thread so I'm throwing it out - got no real hard and fast ideas but it struck me that this might fit the "gladiator stable" feel you're referring to...)
#13 fiendish_dire_weasel Mar 31, 2004 22:59:28	Honestly, the more I think about it (and I have been a fair amount latley) the more I think Gladiators should probably be just a Fighter variant with some extra class skills (Bluff, Perform & Sense Motive rather than Ride & Handle Animal and maybe Climb & Jump). Add in a few new Fighter bonus feats (like armor optimization and hitting for subdual damage) and it seems good enough to me. Multiclass with Rogue or Barbarian for some different styles, add in some Wilder for some combat oriented Psionic extras (is that legal in the arena?). Allow the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from Complete Warrior and it seems to cover all the bases. Maybe a "Master Gladiator" PrC would be cool, for the true arena vetrans. My big concern would be that a Gladiator core-class would end up making all gladiators kind of cookie cutter. Having them based around bonus feats (as Fighter varients) would add more diversity, as would multi-classing. I like things that promote players to put more thought into thier characters, not to mention easier to balance out (under the assumtion the Fighter is balanced against the other classes). Thats just one infernal mustelid's opinion though.
#14 nytcrawlr Apr 01, 2004 14:36:25	This freaking rocks, lol. What a great april fool's joke. I pity the fool!