Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 aikijim13 Mar 29, 2004 14:49:02	Does anyone know of any way to incorporate the Monk class into Dark Sun? Aren't there Monks in Nibenay? I understand the whole "It wouldn't fit with the eastern flavor" deal, but I always thought of Nibenay like Thailand I guess... maybe I'm really off... Anyone else have any suggestions, comments, cocerns?
#2 nytcrawlr Mar 29, 2004 15:37:03	Just take monk straight from the PHB, that is what I am doing. Or you can check out the mystic class I wrote up awhile back (only 3.0 format). mystic I'll probably end up using the flavor text of the mystic with the mechanics of the monk from the PHB.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 15:48:16	I think that the monk fits well with the flavor of Athas... with weapons being less sophisticated, i think there would be a demand for a warrior that fights without weapons and uses the way (rather than ki) for special abilities. I like nyt's idea a lot... a class with a reserve of psp's just for psionic feats. =] I get the impression though that this will need revised once Revised Psionics Handbook gets released.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 16:42:45	Weapon-less fighters are cool. Monastic orders of weapon-less fighters are not cool. Using the way to augment your weapon-less fighting is cool. Using the way to replace ki is not cool. Hitting someone in the face with your fist is cool. Saying your going to hit Borys in the face is not cool. Soo . . . weaponless fighters outside of the monk's mold is what I would really like to see.
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 29, 2004 16:44:58	I agree. Some sort of weaponless fighter that isn't a cut & dry "monk" would be really cool.
#6 Sonja Mar 29, 2004 16:49:29	I think there's a psionic-based monk in Unearthed Arcana or other book. That would work better in Dark Sun, maybe?
#7 nytcrawlr Mar 29, 2004 16:49:44	Good luck... /me who still doesn't understand the issue with this and probably never will or care too...
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 29, 2004 16:57:28	Originally posted by NytCrawlr Good luck... /me who still doesn't understand the issue with this and probably never will or care too... It's very similar to the issue about Sorcerers. I think what bugs people (at least subconsciously) is that the Barbarian was brought in (Brute), but not the Sorcerer or Monk. It's probably going to be an issue until either Dark Sun includes a variation of those classes, or the end of the world.
#9 dawnstealer Mar 29, 2004 17:00:30	There's specific mention of monks in the City State of Nibenay. So, as long as your monk is from Nibenay, there's no need to change anything. Psychic warriors might be another option.
#10 nytcrawlr Mar 29, 2004 17:24:27	Originally posted by Dawnstealer There's specific mention of monks in the City State of Nibenay. And Raam... Again, I don't see an issue with the whole monastic thing when it's clear as day in several suppliments describing said monastic orders in two entirely different city-states.
#11 nytcrawlr Mar 29, 2004 17:29:10	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm It's very similar to the issue about Sorcerers. I think what bugs people (at least subconsciously) is that the Barbarian was brought in (Brute), but not the Sorcerer or Monk. It's probably going to be an issue until either Dark Sun includes a variation of those classes, or the end of the world. The problem with this is that it's bad logic. Do you know what I call a barbarian in my DS? A freaking BARBARIAN! Just because it meant x on earth, doesn't mean it can't mean y on some other planet. Heh. And according to Denning and some other designers of DS, they wanted to include monks as well as barbarians in, and this was all across the T$R universe at the time. The problem was they were running into a legal license issue at the time of 2e coming out and weren't allowed to make reference to them in the core rules, hence the many Dragons and accessories that came out later that allowed for such classes.
#12 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 6:37:08	I just was never really happy with the monk class in general. I don't have as big of an issue with incorporating the monk into DS as I do with the fact that a fighter or gladiator can become a master with swords, but can't brawl worth a damn. I would love to see a little system for different aspects of weaponless fighting like traditional martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc. My beef is more with the system than with the monk itself.
#13 aikijim13 Mar 30, 2004 8:13:56	I think I agree with ya Mach on that one... Sure Gladiators get Improved Unarmed Combat, but what about wrestling, advanced striking, all that goodness? Thats the one problem I have with the new Gladiator class is that they are limited to armed weapons primarily. Perhaps a cool alternative would be that a Gladiator at 1st level must choose a path (kind of like how psions do) and instead of Master of Weapons, they could be Master of the Mount (Montares) Master of the Fist.... heck, maybe even have an option that would take them down the role of the Jazt, I loved those guys... great baddies! My 2 bits... Jim
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 8:16:58	Hmmm....guess all those Nibenese monks don't exist, eh? --whatever; there'll be monks on my 3.5 Athas NB
#15 kilamar Mar 30, 2004 9:03:34	Personally, I see Monks as a sub-school of psionics. They master mind and body as psionics, but concentrate heavily on the body enhancing part like a psychometabolist. They are that good at what they are doing that they can use their powers without expending powerpoints. Naturally the knowledge of this psionic style can be tought well in schools. Kilamar
#16 dawnstealer Mar 30, 2004 10:01:27	I have monks in my campaign and if ya' don't like it, I'll stick ya'!
#17 Grummore Mar 30, 2004 11:38:13	I do not accept Monk in my campaign. I just dont like funky martial art, special punch and jump kick that just augment the density of informations I have to work in my sessions. I, dont, like, monk!
#18 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 30, 2004 11:43:03	Personally, while I do like to keep close to the athas.org implementation of the Dark Sun material, I have strongly considered using Monks in my campaigns. Of course, I haven't had players that find the Monk class even remotely interesting, so it hasn't been brought up in my campaigns yet.... Just as with the Sorcerer, I am starting to warm up to allowing that class in my games too... but my players even think less of a Sorcerer than they do a Monk...
#19 nytcrawlr Mar 30, 2004 13:55:45	I have major issues with allowing sorcerer into DS. If you can clean up the flavor enough to where it would make sense on Athas, then go for it, but as it stands it steps on wizard's toes way too much and would take away from the whole "hard to be a wizard, magic is rare" theme. Monks on the other hand have already been incorporated into the material via several accessories and are known to have monastic orders in two different city-states, the mechanics of the class just isn't avaialble, or wasn't till now anyways. However, I do agree that gladiators should be able to be better at being a weaponless fighter, maybe not as much as a monk is, but close. Fighters already have the capability with taking certain feats with their bonus feat slots that are also on said bonus feat list. The problem is there aren't enough feats to really make it all that great, though I think complete warrior and maybe UA changed this, I could be wrong, I have only looked through both books briefly. If nothing more is in those two books, then it's just a simple matter of creating a few more feats that the fighter, gladiator, and monk can have access to with their bonus feats.
#20 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 18:20:34	If nothing more is in those two books, then it's just a simple matter of creating a few more feats that the fighter, gladiator, and monk can have access to with their bonus feats. That's hitting the nail on the head. Now, let's hope someone goes through all the hard work and implements this for me while I go off and do . . . anything else that doesn't involve rules.
#21 nytcrawlr Mar 30, 2004 20:59:51	Originally posted by Mach2.5 That's hitting the nail on the head. Now, let's hope someone goes through all the hard work and implements this for me while I go off and do . . . anything else that doesn't involve rules. What exactly are you wanting to see and I'll put it on my long list of things to do? Heh I'm serious btw.
#22 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 0:35:32	Feat chains perhaps. Something that would allow either a fighter or a gladiator to become a pummeling god. Something that, if you did include the monk, wouldn't turn the monk into any more of a power-house. Something with style . I've been wanting to come up with something for a while myself (or find a good resource for it), but its way too far down on my list of things to do.
#23 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 8:09:55	while i do think that a monk class would fit athas flavour-wise, either in nibenay or raam, or even eldaarich where weapons are forbidden (and the monasteries argument is not really valid - athas is FULL of monasteries), my main problem with the monk is that in a world where magic and metal items are supposed to be extremely uncommon, the monks get a huge advantage! monks are supposed to be balanced to your average +1 full-plated +2 sword wielding paladin, not your erdlu scaled bone dagger wielding fighter... a monk needs no armor or weapons and in a setting where good armor and weapons are hard to come by that's a huge plus. besides, you can always do a psychic warrior! much cooler! much more athasian!
#24 nytcrawlr Mar 31, 2004 16:26:12	Psychic Warriors != Monks. Sorry, tired of that argument and it's not going to float. Monks are indeed balanced with all other classes for DS D&D3e, it's when you stray from the whole "you must have x amount of magic items at character level y" that causes an issue, something I'm going to have to deal with in my games, but not something you deal with on an official level, and that is what we are arguing. ;)
#25 darthcestual Mar 31, 2004 20:35:49	This is just something I had in my campaign. Elemental monks. I sort of crossed the elemental cleric role with the fighting styles of monks, borrowing from the anime El Hazard and the priestesses of Mount Muldoon. We're all familiar enough with fighting games like Mortal Kombat or Fatal Fury, which is kinda the angle I was going for. Unarmed warriors who can shoot fireballs from their hands, make their flesh hard as stone, leap gracefully through the air as if flying, or manipulate water into devastating blasts by will alone. It may not jive with alot of the rules, but I look for great settings and fun stories. DS is a great setting, and I use Story Engine for all my games anyways. ;)
#26 nytcrawlr Apr 01, 2004 14:28:41	I tried something like this once, but thought better against it, mainly cause I don't want to make everything spiritual or whatever elemental based, or base any new thing on Rajaat either like I had a tendency to do, heh. In later news, nice april fool's gag on the "most ignored user" thing, heh. :D
#27 velgost Apr 01, 2004 19:47:46	There is a book by Chainmail Bikini called Beyond Monk's, it introduces the Martial Artist class. It seems to be exactly what ya'll are lookin' for. The Martial Artist is similar to the monk in that it's a primarily unarmed fighter, but that's where the similarity ends. They have all the unarmed stuff but take out the magical hooplah, kinda like Pepsi One, all the flavor but just 1 calorie
#28 Nefal Apr 02, 2004 11:48:21	Originally posted by NytCrawlr If nothing more is in those two books, then it's just a simple matter of creating a few more feats that the fighter, gladiator, and monk can have access to with their bonus feats. Hi! There's a feat in d20 Modern (Brawl - I can't remember exactly... but Unarmed attacks deal 1d6 dmg, about that, I'm sure!) and in the complete warrior: -Clever wrestling -Close-quarters fighting -Defensive throw -Eagle-claw attack Defensive throw is good, the others... well... could be useful...
#29 zombiegleemax Apr 02, 2004 20:23:53	In our DS campaigns, we removed all of the monks supernatural abilities and gave them a good BAB instead of an Average BAB. It has worked well so far up to level 16.