Mapping Sigil??? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Mapping Sigil???

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 29, 2004 15:01:12 I recently picked up Campaign Cartographer and several add-ons from Profantasy and started working on a map of Sigil.

While I know that it was stated that there city has no definite size and can change at the will of the Lady, does anyone know of a source with information as to location and streets in Sigil. What about an approximation of size and population???
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 29, 2004 15:27:18 According to "In The Cage", Sigil is 5 miles in diameter. As for population... I can't remember the source, or find it right now, but I seem to recall that it was around 1.5 million, with about 1/3rd of that being permanent residents and the other 2/3rds being visitors and other transient populations.
#3
Ornum
Mar 29, 2004 16:33:52 The best bet for street names is In the Cage, but even there only a few are named. The book even states that since the city could change at a moments notice because of the constant changes being made by the dabus, nothing but main streets are named. The poster map that came with that product is the best that is out there, so take a look at that if you have access.
#4
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Mar 29, 2004 16:56:23 Use 'In the Cage' as well as the maps of more local areas and districts that appeared throughout some of the PS modules such as 'Harbinger House' and others.

I tell you, the scattered nature of Sigil maps was a nightmare when I was trying to collect all of that together to describe the sections of the city for Planewalker. Long nights with a table covered just in open PS books
#5
zombiegleemax
Mar 29, 2004 18:57:25 I thought that I read somewhere that Sigil was 20 miles in circumference and 5 miles across, with a population of 2 million. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
#6
Ornum
Mar 29, 2004 19:20:27 In The Cage describes Sigil as being 20 miles around and having a 5 mile diameter (not mathmatically possible). It also states that the population is over a million.

My memory also thought that it said 5 miles wide, but a quick check showed me otherwise. In Shemeska's work for Planewalker, the city is 5 miles wide, so that would work anyway.
#7
primemover003
Mar 29, 2004 21:45:44 I also like the 20 mile circumference and 5 miles wide... That's a good sized city.
#8
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Mar 29, 2004 21:56:23
Originally posted by Ornum

My memory also thought that it said 5 miles wide, but a quick check showed me otherwise. In Shemeska's work for Planewalker, the city is 5 miles wide, so that would work anyway.

*'lothy ears perk*

What, did I mess up in my writing for PW? Is it something other than 5 miles in diameter? I pulled that from 'In the Cage' as I recall, pretty much directly over to what I was writing. If I goofed on the city dimensions somewhere please say so and I'll change it.
#9
Ornum
Mar 29, 2004 22:15:04 Shemeska - Direct quote from your work on Planewalker - "Shape aside, the size of Sigil, from one end to the other, as determined in the past by Harmonium and Guvner surveys, places the Cage at roughly five miles across, and twenty miles in circumference."

Paraphrased from In The Cage - With a 5 mile diameter and 20 mile circumference...

I don't think that an actual width was ever given (at least none that I can find). I always thought that it was 5 miles wide anyway until I reread In The Cage, since the actual diameter would be roughly 6.5 miles with the given circumference, but I assume the catch-all "it's the nature of the planes, berk" would be the explanation for the descrepancy. While your words aren't exactly correct (unless by width you meant diameter), but I don't see a problem with keeping it as is, since a definitive width is never given in Planescape and such information is good to know, if not completely necessary.
#10
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Mar 29, 2004 22:37:50 Gotcha, when I said 'across' I meant that as diameter. Any fuzzyness on meaning there is my fault. ;)
#11
Ornum
Mar 29, 2004 23:34:25 Quite alright, Shemeska.

Now for a question which may seem ridiculous to some. I know that the Sigil curves "up" length-wise, but does it also curve "up" along its width, as well, or is it in fact flat? I don't think that I've read a description anywhere that explains it, but if I missed it, please let me know.
#12
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Mar 30, 2004 0:02:04 As far as I know it's never been really stated explicitely, but I gather there's a very shallow curve along that axis with sharper curves at the 'edges', with walls preventing easy access to the 'edge' except in places such as Suicide Alley where you can look over the lip into, well, *morpheous voice* "I can't tell you about it, you have to see it yourself."
#13
wyvern76
Mar 30, 2004 0:21:06
Originally posted by Ornum
I don't think that an actual width was ever given (at least none that I can find).

Has anyone here ever gone to the trouble to measure the length and width of the map of Sigil, and calcuate the width using the ratio of the two? I'd do it myself, but most of my PS collection including the poster maps is currently in storage on another continent.

Wyvern
#14
Ornum
Mar 30, 2004 0:56:54
Originally posted by Wyvern76
Has anyone here ever gone to the trouble to measure the length and width of the map of Sigil, and calcuate the width using the ratio of the two? I'd do it myself, but most of my PS collection including the poster maps is currently in storage on another continent.

Wyvern

I don't know how accurate it is, but by using ratios I came up with roughly 2.25 miles as Sigil's width. You might want to check my math, but that is how it worked out for me using the folding map from In The Cage.
#15
sildatorak
Mar 30, 2004 2:18:55
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
As far as I know it's never been really stated explicitely, but I gather there's a very shallow curve along that axis with sharper curves at the 'edges', with walls preventing easy access to the 'edge' except in places such as Suicide Alley where you can look over the lip into, well, *morpheous voice* "I can't tell you about it, you have to see it yourself."

Hmmm...I always thought Sigil would curve down toward the edges if it is truely built on a torus. That would also give a convenient way of telling if you're going sidewise or longwise in the city since depending on whether it looks like you're walking up or downhill.
#16
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 8:17:23 Quote: "Shape aside, the size of Sigil, from one end to the other, as determined in the past by Harmonium and Guvner surveys, places the Cage at roughly five miles across, and twenty miles in circumference."

I think that this means across the city from one wall to another, not from one side to another. That would seem to make more sense. Measureing across the diameter of the city would be quite the undertaking.
#17
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 8:29:07 I once saw a very interesting map of Sigil's ring on Elfwood. Probably not canon, but if I can find the image again, I'll post a link up here.
#18
Ornum
Mar 30, 2004 9:01:11
Originally posted by Biomage
Quote: "Shape aside, the size of Sigil, from one end to the other, as determined in the past by Harmonium and Guvner surveys, places the Cage at roughly five miles across, and twenty miles in circumference."

I think that this means across the city from one wall to another, not from one side to another. That would seem to make more sense. Measureing across the diameter of the city would be quite the undertaking.

Yeah, Shemeska was the one that wrote that for Planewalker, and stated above that the original intention was "across" meant diameter, just like the Planescape product In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil had stated as well.

@Center - Start looking when you get the time, I'd like to see it.
#19
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 9:19:53 So, it would seem that the consensus is... Sigil is approximately 20 miles in circumference, 5 miles wide and 6.5 miles across the center.
#20
Ornum
Mar 30, 2004 9:28:24 No, diameter means across the center, so the offcial dimensions (as given by both Planewalker and the older Planescape products) are 20 miles in circumference, and 5 miles in diameter (or across the center), but is still subject to changes in size by the Lady's will. I know that it doesn't make sense mathematically, but that's just the way it is. As far as width of Sigil (from wall to wall), no product that I know of ever actually stated what it was, but if the map that came with In The Cage is scaled correctly and is otherwise accurate, then by using ratios the width would roughly be 2.25 miles if my math is correct.
#21
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 10:11:15 What product mentions the diameter of Sigil? I am unaware of any.
#22
Ornum
Mar 30, 2004 10:39:36 In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil is where that information is found. The first paragraph under the "Architecture" heading on page 6, to be precise. The same sentence also includes the 20 mile circumference information.
#23
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Mar 30, 2004 11:09:19 I'm of the opinion that the 'width' of the city at any point along the ring from down to spireward is more subject to alteration in size (and hasn't ever been given a rough estimate of dimensions, from TSR nor in what I wrote).
#24
bob_the_efreet
Mar 30, 2004 16:33:06 A search of Elfwood netted the following Sigil-pictures (there were more, but I was going mostly for Sigil landscape, not 'here's my party in the City of Doors!):

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/sigil.jpg.html
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/w/j/wjcuffe/sigilrender.jpg.html
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/lower_ward.jpg.html
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/hive.jpg.html
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/sigilstreet.jpg.html
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/festhall.jpg.html
#25
andyr
Mar 30, 2004 18:08:51 About the size thing - could be curved space, or another Mystery of the Planes.
#26
ripvanwormer
Mar 30, 2004 21:30:00 The drawing of Sigil in the Planescape boxed set, and the still views of Sigil in Planescape: Torment, both make it look as if Sigil curves upward toward its edges, so that walking in any direction is "uphill," though of course gravity follows the curve.

This also means that if you're near an edge, the opposite side of Sigil appears at an angle to you in the sky, rather than straight up overhead. Again, this is how it looks in Torment.
#27
wyvern76
Mar 31, 2004 2:17:13
Originally posted by Ornum
I know that it doesn't make sense mathematically, but that's just the way it is.

Eh, chalk it up to measurement/rounding error. As Biomage pointed out, measuring the diameter of Sigil would be quite difficult, and medieval cartography isn't known for its exacting accuracy.

If the actual diameter of Sigil (assuming it's constant) is roughly 6 miles, then the figures from In the Cage are reasonable estimates.

As for the question of the sideways slope, I guess it depends on whether you interpret Sigil's shape as being like a doughnut or like a tire.

Wyvern
#28
ripvanwormer
Mar 31, 2004 18:36:40
Originally posted by Wyvern76

As for the question of the sideways slope, I guess it depends on whether you interpret Sigil's shape as being like a doughnut or like a tire.

Wyvern

"If a DM's got to describe the place with words, the closest prime-material analogy is an auto tire. Imagine a tire - no hubcap or wheel rim - lying on its side. Sigil would be built on the inside of the tire. All the streets and buildings would fill the curved interior. Meanwhile, on the outside there's nothing, see?"

- Sigil and Beyond (Planescape Campaign Setting), page 58.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 15:01:12	I recently picked up Campaign Cartographer and several add-ons from Profantasy and started working on a map of Sigil. While I know that it was stated that there city has no definite size and can change at the will of the Lady, does anyone know of a source with information as to location and streets in Sigil. What about an approximation of size and population???
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 15:27:18	According to "In The Cage", Sigil is 5 miles in diameter. As for population... I can't remember the source, or find it right now, but I seem to recall that it was around 1.5 million, with about 1/3rd of that being permanent residents and the other 2/3rds being visitors and other transient populations.
#3 Ornum Mar 29, 2004 16:33:52	The best bet for street names is In the Cage, but even there only a few are named. The book even states that since the city could change at a moments notice because of the constant changes being made by the dabus, nothing but main streets are named. The poster map that came with that product is the best that is out there, so take a look at that if you have access.
#4 Shemeska_the_Marauder Mar 29, 2004 16:56:23	Use 'In the Cage' as well as the maps of more local areas and districts that appeared throughout some of the PS modules such as 'Harbinger House' and others. I tell you, the scattered nature of Sigil maps was a nightmare when I was trying to collect all of that together to describe the sections of the city for Planewalker. Long nights with a table covered just in open PS books
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 18:57:25	I thought that I read somewhere that Sigil was 20 miles in circumference and 5 miles across, with a population of 2 million. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
#6 Ornum Mar 29, 2004 19:20:27	In The Cage describes Sigil as being 20 miles around and having a 5 mile diameter (not mathmatically possible). It also states that the population is over a million. My memory also thought that it said 5 miles wide, but a quick check showed me otherwise. In Shemeska's work for Planewalker, the city is 5 miles wide, so that would work anyway.
#7 primemover003 Mar 29, 2004 21:45:44	I also like the 20 mile circumference and 5 miles wide... That's a good sized city.
#8 Shemeska_the_Marauder Mar 29, 2004 21:56:23	Originally posted by Ornum My memory also thought that it said 5 miles wide, but a quick check showed me otherwise. In Shemeska's work for Planewalker, the city is 5 miles wide, so that would work anyway. 'lothy ears perk What, did I mess up in my writing for PW? Is it something other than 5 miles in diameter? I pulled that from 'In the Cage' as I recall, pretty much directly over to what I was writing. If I goofed on the city dimensions somewhere please say so and I'll change it.
#9 Ornum Mar 29, 2004 22:15:04	Shemeska - Direct quote from your work on Planewalker - "Shape aside, the size of Sigil, from one end to the other, as determined in the past by Harmonium and Guvner surveys, places the Cage at roughly five miles across, and twenty miles in circumference." Paraphrased from In The Cage - With a 5 mile diameter and 20 mile circumference... I don't think that an actual width was ever given (at least none that I can find). I always thought that it was 5 miles wide anyway until I reread In The Cage, since the actual diameter would be roughly 6.5 miles with the given circumference, but I assume the catch-all "it's the nature of the planes, berk" would be the explanation for the descrepancy. While your words aren't exactly correct (unless by width you meant diameter), but I don't see a problem with keeping it as is, since a definitive width is never given in Planescape and such information is good to know, if not completely necessary.
#10 Shemeska_the_Marauder Mar 29, 2004 22:37:50	Gotcha, when I said 'across' I meant that as diameter. Any fuzzyness on meaning there is my fault. ;)
#11 Ornum Mar 29, 2004 23:34:25	Quite alright, Shemeska. Now for a question which may seem ridiculous to some. I know that the Sigil curves "up" length-wise, but does it also curve "up" along its width, as well, or is it in fact flat? I don't think that I've read a description anywhere that explains it, but if I missed it, please let me know.
#12 Shemeska_the_Marauder Mar 30, 2004 0:02:04	As far as I know it's never been really stated explicitely, but I gather there's a very shallow curve along that axis with sharper curves at the 'edges', with walls preventing easy access to the 'edge' except in places such as Suicide Alley where you can look over the lip into, well, morpheous voice "I can't tell you about it, you have to see it yourself."
#13 wyvern76 Mar 30, 2004 0:21:06	Originally posted by Ornum I don't think that an actual width was ever given (at least none that I can find). Has anyone here ever gone to the trouble to measure the length and width of the map of Sigil, and calcuate the width using the ratio of the two? I'd do it myself, but most of my PS collection including the poster maps is currently in storage on another continent. Wyvern
#14 Ornum Mar 30, 2004 0:56:54	Originally posted by Wyvern76 Has anyone here ever gone to the trouble to measure the length and width of the map of Sigil, and calcuate the width using the ratio of the two? I'd do it myself, but most of my PS collection including the poster maps is currently in storage on another continent. Wyvern I don't know how accurate it is, but by using ratios I came up with roughly 2.25 miles as Sigil's width. You might want to check my math, but that is how it worked out for me using the folding map from In The Cage.
#15 sildatorak Mar 30, 2004 2:18:55	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder As far as I know it's never been really stated explicitely, but I gather there's a very shallow curve along that axis with sharper curves at the 'edges', with walls preventing easy access to the 'edge' except in places such as Suicide Alley where you can look over the lip into, well, morpheous voice "I can't tell you about it, you have to see it yourself." Hmmm...I always thought Sigil would curve down toward the edges if it is truely built on a torus. That would also give a convenient way of telling if you're going sidewise or longwise in the city since depending on whether it looks like you're walking up or downhill.
#16 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 8:17:23	Quote: "Shape aside, the size of Sigil, from one end to the other, as determined in the past by Harmonium and Guvner surveys, places the Cage at roughly five miles across, and twenty miles in circumference." I think that this means across the city from one wall to another, not from one side to another. That would seem to make more sense. Measureing across the diameter of the city would be quite the undertaking.
#17 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 8:29:07	I once saw a very interesting map of Sigil's ring on Elfwood. Probably not canon, but if I can find the image again, I'll post a link up here.
#18 Ornum Mar 30, 2004 9:01:11	Originally posted by Biomage Quote: "Shape aside, the size of Sigil, from one end to the other, as determined in the past by Harmonium and Guvner surveys, places the Cage at roughly five miles across, and twenty miles in circumference." I think that this means across the city from one wall to another, not from one side to another. That would seem to make more sense. Measureing across the diameter of the city would be quite the undertaking. Yeah, Shemeska was the one that wrote that for Planewalker, and stated above that the original intention was "across" meant diameter, just like the Planescape product In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil had stated as well. @Center - Start looking when you get the time, I'd like to see it.
#19 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 9:19:53	So, it would seem that the consensus is... Sigil is approximately 20 miles in circumference, 5 miles wide and 6.5 miles across the center.
#20 Ornum Mar 30, 2004 9:28:24	No, diameter means across the center, so the offcial dimensions (as given by both Planewalker and the older Planescape products) are 20 miles in circumference, and 5 miles in diameter (or across the center), but is still subject to changes in size by the Lady's will. I know that it doesn't make sense mathematically, but that's just the way it is. As far as width of Sigil (from wall to wall), no product that I know of ever actually stated what it was, but if the map that came with In The Cage is scaled correctly and is otherwise accurate, then by using ratios the width would roughly be 2.25 miles if my math is correct.
#21 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 10:11:15	What product mentions the diameter of Sigil? I am unaware of any.
#22 Ornum Mar 30, 2004 10:39:36	In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil is where that information is found. The first paragraph under the "Architecture" heading on page 6, to be precise. The same sentence also includes the 20 mile circumference information.
#23 Shemeska_the_Marauder Mar 30, 2004 11:09:19	I'm of the opinion that the 'width' of the city at any point along the ring from down to spireward is more subject to alteration in size (and hasn't ever been given a rough estimate of dimensions, from TSR nor in what I wrote).
#24 bob_the_efreet Mar 30, 2004 16:33:06	A search of Elfwood netted the following Sigil-pictures (there were more, but I was going mostly for Sigil landscape, not 'here's my party in the City of Doors!): http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/sigil.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/w/j/wjcuffe/sigilrender.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/lower_ward.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/hive.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/sigilstreet.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/davidm/festhall.jpg.html
#25 andyr Mar 30, 2004 18:08:51	About the size thing - could be curved space, or another Mystery of the Planes.
#26 ripvanwormer Mar 30, 2004 21:30:00	The drawing of Sigil in the Planescape boxed set, and the still views of Sigil in Planescape: Torment, both make it look as if Sigil curves upward toward its edges, so that walking in any direction is "uphill," though of course gravity follows the curve. This also means that if you're near an edge, the opposite side of Sigil appears at an angle to you in the sky, rather than straight up overhead. Again, this is how it looks in Torment.
#27 wyvern76 Mar 31, 2004 2:17:13	Originally posted by Ornum I know that it doesn't make sense mathematically, but that's just the way it is. Eh, chalk it up to measurement/rounding error. As Biomage pointed out, measuring the diameter of Sigil would be quite difficult, and medieval cartography isn't known for its exacting accuracy. If the actual diameter of Sigil (assuming it's constant) is roughly 6 miles, then the figures from In the Cage are reasonable estimates. As for the question of the sideways slope, I guess it depends on whether you interpret Sigil's shape as being like a doughnut or like a tire. Wyvern
#28 ripvanwormer Mar 31, 2004 18:36:40	Originally posted by Wyvern76 As for the question of the sideways slope, I guess it depends on whether you interpret Sigil's shape as being like a doughnut or like a tire. Wyvern "If a DM's got to describe the place with words, the closest prime-material analogy is an auto tire. Imagine a tire - no hubcap or wheel rim - lying on its side. Sigil would be built on the inside of the tire. All the streets and buildings would fill the curved interior. Meanwhile, on the outside there's nothing, see?" - Sigil and Beyond (Planescape Campaign Setting), page 58.