As to who the Great One truly was, Who knows? It could have been an amalgamation of entities, a congregation of beings kreen racial memory has blurred together into one mythic figure.
--just because Athas has no gods doesn't mean it can't have mythic ambiguity NB
From Dragon Kings, page 158: In the entire known history of the Tyr region, there has never been a preserver who has advanced far enough in experience to mimic the metamorphosis of defilers and become an advanced being. But it is possible.
From Defilers & Preservers, page 34 (sidebar): In this time, he [Oronis] convinced a preserver named Besteren to assist him, and the two established the basis for the spell that would eventually take shape.
This, to me, means that Oronis and Besteren invented the spell. That it didn't exist before their development of it by modifying the spells for the Dragon metamorphosis. So, Oronis in my mind, is the first Avangion ever on Athas. Of course, this doesn't seem to coincide with the Thri-Kreen Racial Memory:
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 37: Likewise, seeing the Chak'sa, a site in the Hinterlands, stimulates memories of the Great One (an ancient kreen leader) and of avangions.
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 59: Note that the Great One, a legendary kreen from ages past, while a powerful and revered being, is not acknowledged as a deity of any kind, nor is the reverence offered the Great One particularly religious in nature.
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 60: Seeing an avangion, or even the image of one, triggers the memory of the Great One, and in many cases causes thri-kreen to revere the avangion as the Great One.
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 60: The racial memory simply tells the thri-kreen that the Great One is to be revered; after the memory has been triggered, the thri-kreen reflexively feels awe and fascination when in the presence of the image, or of an actual avangion. The thri-kreen feel compelled to drop their heads close to the ground, and seek to touch their antennae to the image, or to the edge of an avangion's light aura. The Great One gives thri-kreen a sense of peace and calmness, and removes all aggressive tendencies while they stay in the Great One's presence. Thri-kreen consider images of the Great One - in either thri-kreen or avangion form to be sacred, and worthy of respect, though the word "holy" does not quite apply.
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 81: The Chak'sa honors both beings who led that nation, a powerful kreen and an avangion. What happened to end the nation's prominence is something of a mystery, but it probably came into conflict with the sorcerer-kings and the Dragon of Tyr.
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 60: Thri-kreen recognize avangions as those who can bring life to Athas.
So, how does this work? You have to look at the Avangion write-up in Dragon Kings:
From Dragon Kings, page 159: Once the spell is cast, the preserver/avangion, diamond, and stone tomb disappear, bound for planes unknown.
Now, this is from the "final" stage which Dragon Kings has for the Avangion process. To me, I see this as an interesting idea, and I've personally used it to help explain the concept of the Avangion in Kreen memory. If an Avangion slips into planes unknown, this could technically mean that they go through time for this part of the metamorphosis. Possibly to a time when the world was more green, to see first-hand how everything got so messed up, and to better understand how to fix it.
From Thri-Kreen of Athas, page 61: While it is true that an avangion has never been known to exist anywhere in the Tyr Region, the area of the Head, and of the northern thri-kreen nations, are not part of the Tyr Region.
This kind of helps with the first quote from Dragon Kings I presented, since both make reference to the "Tyr region", this one further defines what is and isn't the Tyr region. Of course, the problem with my current line of thinking is.... which Avangion could possibly achieve that final stage of metamorphosis and go back in time?
From Defilers & Preservers, page 34 (sidebar): At this time, it’s believed that Oronis is the only avangion. Korgunard was killed, for example, and the one rumored to be the Forest Maker was actually a dragon king trick.
Ok, so Korgunard is dead before he could complete the change, and the Forest Maker was (gasp!) a lie. That leaves Oronis. But wait, he's not even close to completing his metamorphosis yet. Plus, Oronis doesn't desire showing anyone else how to become an Avangion, since each he teaches the spell keeps dying.
So.... here's my thought: A future Oronis, undergoing the final stage of metamorphosis, goes back through time to see how the world used to be, and hopefully how to fix/renew it. He jumps back to a time when there is a Thri-Kreen nation, and becomes an advisor to the leader of that nation (referred to as the "Great One"). It is a time of great peace and prosperity for the Thri-Kreen nation until the Sorcerer-Kings turn their eyes towards this insect nation. They attack and scatter the nation. However, Keltis, Dragon-King of Kurn encounters Oronis the Avangion. Confused as to what he is witnessing, Keltis listens to Oronis and the remorse he feels for killing the Lizardmen off grows, as does the hope that he will be able to renew the world. Oronis the Avangion then leaves this time period to another point (or to return to his own), and Keltis begins to seek out how to redeem himself.
I added in the part about Keltis meeting Oronis, as I felt that would be the only way Oronis' secret could have remained hidden - he encounters himself during the short war that scatters the Thri-Kreen across the Tablelands. If he had encountered any other Dragon-King, he'd probably not be alive in the present-day Athas (especially if they knew who or what he was).
The "Great One" according to TKoA was most likely 2 different individuals, which is why I made Oronis into an advisor - he doesn't seem to like the idea of actually ruling somewhere (not even New Kurn, where he doesn't hold an official office at). Racial Memories being what they are, get watered down and blurred - so some TK's might think the "Great One" was a single individual, others might see him as two beings. Some might think he's an avangion, others a Thri-Kreen leader, or both.
---
What do you think?
--
NBOriginally posted by Nero's Boot
We're talking legend and myth here, not cold hard facts. Athas is a world full of magic, psionics, and wonky laws of physics. The Really Real World's history is often confused enough; why should Athasian history be any clearer?
As to who the Great One truly was, Who knows? It could have been an amalgamation of entities, a congregation of beings kreen racial memory has blurred together into one mythic figure.
--just because Athas has no gods doesn't mean it can't have mythic ambiguity NB
All good points. This just happens to be something I've given quite a bit of thought to before
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
XlorepDarkHelm: I love you. :D
--
(Translation for the humor-impaired: "I think this is a really cool idea, and I wish I had thought of it myself. Thanks for the idea, XlorepDarkHelm!")
--providing translations for the humor-impaired since 2001 NB
"Over all ruled two kings, one like a winged halfling and the other the greatest kreen Nevalaeg could imagine. Both were mindbenders beyond peer, and together they contrived to grant spells to those that served them directly".
Nevaleag petitions and is allowed to join the ranks of their direct servants and receives "the gift of spells like those of priests".
Of course, the baddies find them and everybody dies horribly, but not before the halfling-like Great One vanishes. Nevalaeg becomes undead and it notes that he could sense the power of the Great Ones, still very much alive but somewhere he could not reach. He decides to bide his time until their return. (This is all TotDL p52).
The kreen Great One also gets a mention in Dragon #234 p41, under the entry for the Chatkcha of the Great One. It is pretty vague but it notes that the Great One gave his chatkcha to Ka'Cha before disappearing from Athas. It dates this to around 1000 years ago.
Gab mentioned that the winged halfling is a rhulisti avangion a while back, iirc. Not sure what this signifies in the bigger picture - I'm quite a fan of the outline presented by xdh above (nice bit of work there mate
) but I'd also be interested to hear what folks make of the rhulisti avangion angle. It's possible that a rhulisti could still be knocking about during the Cleansing Wars, I guess. Gab, care to shed some more light on this one? (Or am I just getting myself confused...?)Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Ok, so Korgunard is dead before he could complete the change, and the Forest Maker was (gasp!) a lie. That leaves Oronis. But wait, he's not even close to completing his metamorphosis yet. Plus, Oronis doesn't desire showing anyone else how to become an Avangion, since each he teaches the spell keeps dying.
So.... here's my thought: A future Oronis, undergoing the final stage of metamorphosis, goes back through time to see how the world used to be, and hopefully how to fix/renew it. He jumps back to a time when there is a Thri-Kreen nation, and becomes an advisor to the leader of that nation (referred to as the "Great One"). It is a time of great peace and prosperity for the Thri-Kreen nation until the Sorcerer-Kings turn their eyes towards this insect nation. They attack and scatter the nation. However, Keltis, Dragon-King of Kurn encounters Oronis the Avangion. Confused as to what he is witnessing, Keltis listens to Oronis and the remorse he feels for killing the Lizardmen off grows, as does the hope that he will be able to renew the world. Oronis the Avangion then leaves this time period to another point (or to return to his own), and Keltis begins to seek out how to redeem himself.
I added in the part about Keltis meeting Oronis, as I felt that would be the only way Oronis' secret could have remained hidden - he encounters himself during the short war that scatters the Thri-Kreen across the Tablelands. If he had encountered any other Dragon-King, he'd probably not be alive in the present-day Athas (especially if they knew who or what he was).
The "Great One" according to TKoA was most likely 2 different individuals, which is why I made Oronis into an advisor - he doesn't seem to like the idea of actually ruling somewhere (not even New Kurn, where he doesn't hold an official office at). Racial Memories being what they are, get watered down and blurred - so some TK's might think the "Great One" was a single individual, others might see him as two beings. Some might think he's an avangion, others a Thri-Kreen leader, or both.
---
What do you think?
Great stuff all-around man, I plan on going with this myself.
Rather than scattering the Kreen nations, though, it's possible that Oronis was traveling into the Crimson Savanna hunting Lizardmen. There is that rather substatial river and it's at least possible that lizardmen, knowing their days were numbered, would seek sanctuary in the Crimson Savanna, where Oronis was not likely to go and the kreen would work as a barrier of sorts.
They judged wrong, Oronis shows up, wipes his butt with them, but then runs head-long into his future-self, who converts past-self into Keltis.
That's beside the point, though: I'd say that the heads being a future Oronis is a great idea and it's a hard one to argue against.
The only other possibility is that the Great One is someone who's been pulling strings behind the scenes, guiding Keltis, Korgunard, and others along the path to sweet, sweet Avangion-ness. Maybe he was lying low to avoid the eye of the Dragon. The Cleansing Wars were a time of ubermagic on both sides, and it's possible that someone on the "good" side read the writing on the wall and decided to aim for the long-run.
--another Cool Gaming Idea to put in the Hall of Cool Gaming Ideas NB
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Xlor - I'll buy it. Nice work.
Rather than scattering the Kreen nations, though, it's possible that Oronis was traveling into the Crimson Savanna hunting Lizardmen. There is that rather substatial river and it's at least possible that lizardmen, knowing their days were numbered, would seek sanctuary in the Crimson Savanna, where Oronis was not likely to go and the kreen would work as a barrier of sorts.
They judged wrong, Oronis shows up, wipes his butt with them, but then runs head-long into his future-self, who converts past-self into Keltis.
Actually, I was thinking it would have been after he already completed his slaughter of the Lizardmen. The Dragon, as well as the other Sorcerer-Monarchs might have felt that a Kreen nation on the Tablelands could pose a threat to them and their stability, so they smashed it early on in the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings - you know, when Keltis would have still been roughly on the same side as the other SK's & the Dragon. I was planning on leaving the Crimson Savannah out of it, other than the Kreen nation on the Tablelands could have been rebels/separatists from the Tohr-Kreen Empire who somehow got past the Jagged Cliffs.... or something like that.
But yea, basically the big turning-point for Keltis would then (in my view) be him encountering a future version of himself, one which wasn't a Dragon, but rather a near-completed Avangion (which would have given him direction for making the spell's physical metamorphosis).
That's beside the point, though: I'd say that the heads being a future Oronis is a great idea and it's a hard one to argue against.
The only other possibility is that the Great One is someone who's been pulling strings behind the scenes, guiding Keltis, Korgunard, and others along the path to sweet, sweet Avangion-ness. Maybe he was lying low to avoid the eye of the Dragon. The Cleansing Wars were a time of ubermagic on both sides, and it's possible that someone on the "good" side read the writing on the wall and decided to aim for the long-run.
That's a possibility. I've always thought of Keltis being guided by a Pyreen (and isn't that actually mentioned a bit in some book). The Pyreen which made it possible for him to become a Preserver - and this same Pyreen guided him for the metamorphosis, making the Avangion less reliant (to the point of being released completely) on external life energies - rather becoming sort of their own wellspring of energy, like a personal Tree of Life (for the purposes of their magic).
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Normally, I avoid fantasy time travelling like the plague, but at epic levels, time travel can be a wonderful plot device!
--another Cool Gaming Idea to put in the Hall of Cool Gaming Ideas NB
I usually do too, but I feel that if used discreetly, it can work. I'm no fan of continuous time-travel systems for a fantasy setting. Oronis being the avangion which the Kreen remember is a good one IMHO. Just like I actually like the idea of the Mind Lords of the Last Sea having used a form of time travel to see into the future which made them so psychotically defensive of that region.
There's one thing I noticed though, which might be another avenue to explore:
From Defilers & Preservers, page 34 (sidebar):
In this time, he [Oronis] convinced a preserver named Besteren to assist him, and the two established the basis for the spell that would eventually take shape.¸
Who is Besteren, and more importantly, what happened to him?
Anyways, I was thinking that maybe it could have been him who went back through time, and he could also have been killed in that time period.
Oronis stays in order to organize New Kurn, and Besteren decides to go back in time in order to try to prevent the cleansing wars. And fails, obviously. Probably dies trying too.
This could cause an interesting scenario: Uncovering the remains of an avangion in a long-lost ruin/battle site/tomb.
Anyways, just a though.
1st avangion: Oronis
2nd avangion: Nerad (remember the Psychometron of Nerad?)
3rd avangion: Korgunard
Besteren:
2E: preserver who helps Keltis develop the spell (Defilers & Preservers, sidebar p.34)
3E: druid who helps Keltis develop the spell (DS3.5, in 3E only druids can offer redemption to a defiler)
There is never any mention of him changing state or even surviving beyond normal age limits, or even what race he's part of.
(and I didn't make Besteren into a Druid in my writeup...I don't think).I searched through about 40 threads from the oldest on now and the only reference that said Besteren was a druid was an earlier comment of mine that asked: «Isn't it written somewhere that Besteren was a druid in 3E?».
And the only reference that links pyreens to the help Keltis got was from xlorep's post where he makes that statement.
I was sure I was gonna find a comment by flip or Gab on this, but nada.
Dunno where though. I can only guess it must be fan created, and the words pyreen and Oronis/Keltis were misspelled.
Good luck finding that post!
Originally posted by Pennarin
Good luck finding that post!
I don't think it's a post. I think it's in one of the published Dark Sun books from AD&D 2e. Which one, I haven't got a clue. I've looked through the Wanderer's Chronicle and Defilers & Preservers on this to no avail (yet).
Coulda sworn he had some personal life problems he was dealing with that has kept him away or something.
Originally posted by Anorien Ssirinthil
Actually there is another Avangion from Urik: Amiska a 21st level Avangion. described in the short story not sure which acsessory its in but she gives a kiss to one of urik templars and tell him to help athas.
Also remember that the known world of Athas is rediculously small. It's highly likely dragons exist in other areas of the world, and by default, other avangions, too.
--feral Forest Ridge halfling avangion, anyone? NB
"For five hundred years Kurn followed the same course as the other sorcerer king domains. Throughout that time, Oronis was troubled by something few of his peers possessed - his conscience." WC pg 88
I recall somewhere that he was a 22nd level dragon before he went looking for redemption but can't place it.
"It took nearly 1,000 years of study and experimentation for Oronis to develop the preserver metamorphosis spell." WC pg 89
I also remember the part about a Pryeen, but couldn't find it in any of the books. Since I've never read any of the Dragon magazines I don't think it was in there.
This all means Keltis had killed off all the lizardmen (false) before he took over Kurn. Kinda nixes the idea for having him meet himself when killing off the lizardmen...
Originally posted by Zmaj
This all means Keltis had killed off all the lizardmen (false) before he took over Kurn. Kinda nixes the idea for having him meet himself when killing off the lizardmen...
Which is why I didn't include him killing off lizardmen at that time. I'm figuring this was something unrelated - something during his time as a Dragon-King. Something where he is sent (by the Dragon? Or amybe the otehr SK's) to stop this Thri-Kreen nation from forming, as they were growing in power too quickly. He goes in, helps break them up, and then encounters a future version of himself at that point (which serves two purposes - one, to maybe help his guilt begin to weigh against him more, and to give him hope of becoming something greater; and two - it helps hide the Avangion which was there from being seen by the other Dragon-Kings). It was just something I threw together right at the end there, however - it just seemed cool.
Originally posted by Zmaj
[b]Oronis started working on the A process more then 500 years after the Rajaat's imprisonment.
"For five hundred years Kurn followed the same course as the other sorcerer king domains. Throughout that time, Oronis was troubled by something few of his peers possessed - his conscience." WC pg 88
I recall somewhere that he was a 22nd level dragon before he went looking for redemption but can't place it.
"It took nearly 1,000 years of study and experimentation for Oronis to develop the preserver metamorphosis spell." WC pg 89
the part about his level was in Defilers and preservers.
but youve hit upon an interesting point
if from the time of Rajaat's imprisonment, it took roughly 1500 for the spell...not to mention time the years he needed to advance again from 11th level to undergo the transformation he now is right up against Nerad.
Nerad was supposed to have been the first to undergo the transformation in the tyr region, and was supposed to have lived 6 kings ages or 462 years prior to free year 1. Since there was 2000 years between Rajaats imprisonment and free year 10, that would mean that there were two psionicist/preservers in the region to undergo the transformation in a 28 year time frame.
my theory on this, is that the book of artifacts may well be right and Nerad WAS the first...durring the time it took for Oronis to achieve the proper experience needed. oronis may have written the spell, but he would have known he couldnt use it for a while and passed it off to another possibly both to keep the dragon and other sorcerer kings from looking too closely at him and so that the new avangion could begin to do some good in the world.
although it is unsubstantiated, i have always used Oronis as having somehow aquired the Psycometron of Nerad and is a victim of its artifact possession. (ive been running games longer than Oronis was revealed to be in the world and trying to retcon older games to claim that nerad wasnt the first is rather distasteful and unfair to my long term players.)
id also like to throw in on xlorepdarkhelms timetravel idea....im really not sure what to make of it. I'm almost say its a bad precident to set, and it potentially messes with time in nasty ways. But i will have to give it more thought. here is what the chronomancers guide says on the matter of time travel in dark sun though (following is copyrighted material....blah, blah, blah)
DARK SUN(R) campaign: Chronomancy is completely unknown here as a magical school. Athas is currently cut off from all other worlds by either planar travel or spelljamming, but if a chronomancer did make his way here, he would find travel through Athas's history completely unrestricted.
However, if a chronomancer (whether from Athas or another world) were to use his powers here, the chronomancer would encounter some serious problems. All magic on Athas requires life energy for power, and chronomancy uses such large amounts of power that it can be used only in the manner of defiler magic. In addition to doubling the radius of the usual defiler destruction (thus killing plant life within four times the usual area), a chronomancy spell draws life energy directly from the caster. This energy equals one experience level per 100 years in time traveled. Thus, a defiler-style chronomancer loses three levels of experience if he casts a spell to travel 300 years into Athas's past. Time travel crossing less than 100 years still results in the loss of a single experience level. Once experience is lost, the caster starts with the minimum amount of experience points needed to begin his new level.
A tiny number of experienced local psionicists manage to gain a new psionic power called Time Travel (see The Will and the Way, pages 79-80), which effectively turns those psionicists into chronomancers. Other psychoportive sciences and devotions of a time-related nature might also be present. If a chronomancer is discovered by one of these psionic time travelers, the psionicist will pursue and destroy him out of either xenophobic fear or a hatred of defilers. Temporal Prime is here called the timestream, a water reference indicating the perceived value and rarity of time as an "element."
thats it from me
ashy
Originally posted by ashramry
id also like to throw in on xlorepdarkhelms timetravel idea....im really not sure what to make of it. I'm almost say its a bad precident to set, and it potentially messes with time in nasty ways. But i will have to give it more thought. here is what the chronomancers guide says on the matter of time travel in dark sun though (following is copyrighted material....blah, blah, blah)
I personally am not a big fan of time travel in any campagin setting, as it can really mess up things. However, I feel if used properly, it can be a very handy tool, especially for explaining things. If Oronis did travel though time (by virtue of the final stage spell), it's very possible thart he'd pop up in history, but might keep his name secret. As there are no other Avangions in existence, other creatures might not understand what they saw. The Thri-Kreen might not have had a name for the Avangion, per se, due to the degradability of racial memory, but they understand what he looked like. And thus have their...interesting reaction to the sight of another avangion.
Originally posted by zerpentor
Xlor, when you die, can I keep your brain in a glass jar on my workdesk?
Avangions are rare creatures from the ancient past of Athas, during the Blue Age. Thri-Kreen racial memory reaches into even this mythic time, and they recall them and this leader from that time.
Remember, their memories cause reverence for this leader and for avangions (plural). If you want to take that at face value, it means "they remember more than one avangion."
Perhaps the avangion is a creature of Athas' distant past? A creature that was a life-giver/spreader and enlightened protector of whom the Thri-kreen are aware from racial memory, perhaps through a long, symbiotic connection with them (when they had wings and flew from living island to living island).
So, not a "new" thing at all, but a "new" thing rediscovered unknowingly, reasserting itself through the psionic-magic mix: the psionic energies dipping into something like the "Akashic library" of Athas and the magic used transforming the individual to match.
I don't recall if that bit about the 'Kreen during the Blue Age comes from what we created for the sadly unfinished "Blue Age of Athas" project, or if it is a recollection from the official sourcebooks.
I don't like the time-travel idea for one specific reason: it is stated that Keltis was already bothered by his conscience, meaning he had one, while his companions (the other champions) did not. Him meeting himself thus becomes meaningless, an empty event.
Explanation:
I have severe doubts that any of the current SKs would suffer a change of heart in a similar situation: real clinical psychopaths, which the champions definitely are, tend not to gain them ever.
(Definition: hold contempt for "lessers," messianic-level superiority complex, feel a need to punish their inferiors, insensitive to other's needs, see others as objects to be used for personal gain, lie for pleasure, lack empathy, remorseless behavior, lack real emotion, absence of guilt and anxiety.)
It could be that Rajaat recognized these particular traits in the personalities of his chosen champions, and how they would be particularly useful to him because of this, but when it came to Keltis, Rajaat was "rushed" or perhaps mistook his personality as as matching this profile when it was, perhaps, a different disorder (severe maniac depression can sometimes be mistaken for this, and vice-versa).
Anyways, the point is, if Keltis didn't have a conscience before, there's no reason he would grow one upon meeting his future self; if he had a conscience, then meeting his future self is really a non-issue to the whole idea because it doesn't it doesn't add anything, it doesn't actually matter...it's an empty event.
That said, perhaps Keltis met an avangion, the last living avangion or somesuch even, out in the Crimson Savannah, and this is where he first got the idea of the transformation.
Keltis/Oronis as a manic. Guess it fits, what little I know of him.
Not sure why he couldn't grow a conscious on seeeing his future self, especially if his future self was totally responsible for the bringing forth of his conscious.
Haven't taken any psychology classes yet so I might just be talking out of my butt, but I didn't think that if you've never had a conscious before that that meant you could never have one later.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Keltis/Oronis as a manic. Guess it fits, what little I know of him.
Well, not necessarily an manic, but something that's often or could be mistaken for the same (such as narcissism)...and has to explain why, out of all the champions, only Keltis has a conscience (empathy for others and ability to display sympathy, guilt and agitation over wrong-doing).
NOTE: I wrote a fairly lengthy post detailing aspects of psychopathy, and how and why the condition is listed as incurable, to answer Nyt as to why someone without a conscience would not simply be able to (and do not) grow one. However, I feel it is off-topic and very tangential for the current discussion. If anyone is interested in what I set out therein, ask, and I'll PM it to you.
So, if we find that it is unlikely that Keltis, lacking a conscience, would just develop one suddenly, there being nothing for one to grow from, the established fact of his whole redemption is thrown into difficulty. Even so, it would be unlikely that simply meeting his future self would trigger such a change (we'd have to understand why and how such a severe change in perception and thinking would come about).
However, if Keltis did have a conscience already, as indicated in the source material, he might finally act on it, given some external triggering event (that happens quite often). Definitely, such an event could be the meeting with his future self and...discovering what he did to the world? (Or what? Your thoughts, Xlorep?)
But in that case, we're right back in the same territory, or at least I am: if Keltis already had a conscience, what does "meeting his future self" really add to the situation? It's "cool," I give it that, but it doesn't feel very necessary, to me...just "cool" for the sake of being "cool."
The best I can come up with would be that it was a religious event for Keltis, but in that case, still, why have it be himself? Why not simply any avangion? Does he even know (or need to know) it was himself?
I agree, it makes sense (I know someone's going to argue how it all works out...but to stop that before we get there, I get that), it could work, he could do it, or want to do it. That still doesn't really float for me, it still feels very empty "let's put a cool special effect in here because we can do it."
YMMV.
Well, not necessarily an manic, but something that's often or could be mistaken for the same (such as narcissism)...and has to explain why, out of all the champions, only Keltis has a conscience (empathy for others and ability to display sympathy, guilt and agitation over wrong-doing).
NOTE: I wrote a fairly lengthy post detailing aspects of psychopathy, and how and why the condition is listed as incurable, to answer Nyt as to why someone without a conscience would not simply be able to (and do not) grow one. However, I feel it is off-topic and very tangential for the current discussion. If anyone is interested in what I set out therein, ask, and I'll PM it to you.
So, if we find that it is unlikely that Keltis, lacking a conscience, would just develop one suddenly, there being nothing for one to grow from, the established fact of his whole redemption is thrown into difficulty. Even so, it would be unlikely that simply meeting his future self would trigger such a change (we'd have to understand why and how such a severe change in perception and thinking would come about).
However, if Keltis did have a conscience already, as indicated in the source material, he might finally act on it, given some external triggering event (that happens quite often). Definitely, such an event could be the meeting with his future self and...discovering what he did to the world? (Or what? Your thoughts, Xlorep?)
But in that case, we're right back in the same territory, or at least I am: if Keltis already had a conscience, what does "meeting his future self" really add to the situation? It's "cool," I give it that, but it doesn't feel very necessary, to me...just "cool" for the sake of being "cool."
The best I can come up with would be that it was a religious event for Keltis, but in that case, still, why have it be himself? Why not simply any avangion? Does he even know (or need to know) it was himself?
I agree, it makes sense (I know someone's going to argue how it all works out...but to stop that before we get there, I get that), it could work, he could do it, or want to do it. That still doesn't really float for me, it still feels very empty "let's put a cool special effect in here because we can do it."
I only added in the "meeting future self" idea as simply that, an idea. Keltis could have not met his future self, it could have absolutely no relevance to Keltis growing a conscience. I still strongly believe that there is the *possibility* that the avangion process could send the avangion back through time, to potentially help figure out how to better restore the world. The avangion that the Thri-Kreen had seen, could have very well been from the future reaching back. I first think of Oronis, because all of the materials point to him as being basically all there is as far as avangions go (the other avangions died). Plus, they point to the notion that Oronis was the one that figured out the whole process in the first place -- yet there are references to avangions existing in the past. The reconciliation for me is somehow the avangions from the present to the future (if Oronis really did actually create the process to become avangions) somehow went back to the past, rather than trying to explain how avangions could have existed even before arcane magic had been invented in some cases.
I am not sure how this ideal works out in detail, but here is a thought on Dragon's / Avangions. Perhaps someone could help me expand on this thought... I find it *interesting* that the "original" three races of Athas are humaniod (Halfling), reptilian (Nikaal), and insectiod (thri-kree) respectively. At the same time, Rajaat wanted the world to return to the Halflings (the original form of the rebirth races), while dragons seem to be reptilian in nature and avangions insectiod.
Perhaps the metamorphasis spells sought to tap humans into the various racial affinities of each respective group. I am not sure what the "special powers" for either Nikaals or Thri-Kreen would be, but Humanoids seem to have a special affinity for both psionics and spell-casting.
Just some thoughts...
itf
I'm with Greyworm in thinking that Keltis could have seen any avangion and had the same reaction. Seeing himself sounds both compelling and yet a bit "gimmicky." Furthermore, it opens up a messy can of worms as far as Athas is concerned. Sure, there may be only a couple avangions in the current timeline, but who is to say that armies of them don't come in through disparate future timelines to wreak havoc in the Dark Sun present?
As I said, my original thought about Keltis even seeing an Avangion at all, isn't something written in stone. If it's too wierd, so be it. However, I still stand by the idea that the Avangion process is rigged up with an effort for the Avangion to reach back and see what Athas was like, possibly as a means to gain a deeper understanding for how to repair it all.
Besides, there is an inordinate amount of poetic symetry in your explanation, something that can't hurt the setting.
Keep voicing your opinion Cliff!
Gha, its not weird at all Cliff! Don't let others spoil the fun for the rest of us! Your time travel scheme is perhaps the only scheme that would effectively eliminate a controversy (#3: The Great One) through its implementation.
Besides, there is an inordinate amount of poetic symetry in your explanation, something that can't hurt the setting.
Keep voicing your opinion Cliff!
Well, I will keep my full idea for my campaigns. I'm just trying to break the notion that it is an "all or nothing" idea. the time-travel is the strongest argument in it. Keltis seeing Oronis... that's one which someone could change, because my whole basis is that there is only 1 avanguion, and likely only 1 avangion that will be getting through the metamorphosis any time soon.
I'm with Greyworm in thinking that Keltis could have seen any avangion and had the same reaction. Seeing himself sounds both compelling and yet a bit "gimmicky." Furthermore, it opens up a messy can of worms as far as Athas is concerned. Sure, there may be only a couple avangions in the current timeline, but who is to say that armies of them don't come in through disparate future timelines to wreak havoc in the Dark Sun present?
I am not sure how this ideal works out in detail, but here is a thought on Dragon's / Avangions. Perhaps someone could help me expand on this thought... I find it *interesting* that the "original" three races of Athas are humaniod (Halfling), reptilian (Nikaal), and insectiod (thri-kree) respectively. At the same time, Rajaat wanted the world to return to the Halflings (the original form of the rebirth races), while dragons seem to be reptilian in nature and avangions insectiod.
Perhaps the metamorphasis spells sought to tap humans into the various racial affinities of each respective group. I am not sure what the "special powers" for either Nikaals or Thri-Kreen would be, but Humanoids seem to have a special affinity for both psionics and spell-casting.
Just some thoughts...
itf
Actually this is pretty similiar to my own views on the blue age....
I love the idea that the avangions and dragons might just be the "avatar" forms or the pinnacle forms of the original races of Athas. It makes for alot more interesting links between the purpose behind the transformations.... and makes you wonder if Rajaat would not be creating both forms of the spells one set for his "champions" ie the dragon metamorphosis.... and another to rebuild after the destruction..... a set of Avangions somewhere else to restore the land to the blue age.
Just an idea
personally I do not see Oronis as the only Avangion .... he is just the only one "known" in the Tyr region.... and personally I do not like having the Avangion metamoprhosis going back in time officially.... if people want it in their own game that is great, but I do not want everything linked to Rajaat and the champions to be honest.
And for my own games, while I have Rajaat be the first sorcerer of the Tyr region.... he did not create magic but rather discovered its applications. I actually have arcane magic be an outgrowth of the skills and abilities of the original races of Athas....
Halflings had a form of arcane magic already that used life energy in my games.... that used both plant and animal life. But it was limited and was unable to cast spells of several of the schools of magic. (was based on the illusionist class from 1st and 2nd edition.... closer to bard magic of 3.5... and their ability to drain life energy comes from a link they can open and close to the Black.... a plane of utter emptiness that when you are linked to it drains energy from all around you and through you..... thus allowing them to gather energy.
Thri kreens used internal energy and very minor amounts of other sources... (they opened the link to far inside and their outer form prevented them from draining too far outside themselves.... which means they became more and more able to use their internal life force.)
Nikaals however pulled the life from animals strongly around them but did so through outside foci in the form of obsidian.... (strongest link to the Black, by focusing the drain outside themselves)
That would explain why the kreen carved the two faces back to back on the same stone. That's a closer link than you'd put to a simple friend, or a fellow-leader, or even a husband and wife. They knew the great one through Ka'cha's teachings.
I think that resolves the contradictions, doesn't it? IMO, anything that works is better than basing our timelines on time-travel.
IMO, anything that works is better than basing our timelines on time-travel.
I personally don't see why people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction against time-travel, especially when it is used judiciously.
I personally don't see why people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction against time-travel, especially when it is used judiciously.
Time travel can be usefull, especially when you work with creatures out of the normal time space continuum....
my main issue with problems of it is this.... If Keltis saw Oronis back in time, and this caused his change of heart, you are dealing in a temporal paradox.... as Oronis would never have become a avangion if keltis had not seen him.
Changing your own history is majorly bad news, temporal mechanics wise. Now if you have him going back in time to a place far away from the Tyr region and NOT effecting his history in the least it works.... but as long as you are having him altering his own past you are causing massive issues.
But again, I really dislike trying to tie everything into coming from just a few people.
Let's face it... by the drawings in Dregoths city he was already a dragon of at least 4th stage during the Cleansing wars.... and as the transformations are just a "natural" outgrowth of epic spellcasting combined with massive psionics.... while Oronis is the first Avangion in the Tyr region.... that does not mean no others have ever formed.... just they are not likely to have completed the metamorphosis..... just as other dragons outside the Tyr region are not only possible but likely. (Nok even hinted as such, in the first novel.)
So arguing that he was the Avangion back in the kreen memory is not nesecary. or even following the fluff very well (as it was described as more of a halfling/rhulisti avangion).
Again alot of this is why in my own games that while I have Rajaat as the first "sorcerer" he did not create arcane magic.... he discovered a new way of using it that is more easily done.... thus he created sorcery, but sorcery is based on the ancient races powers. but that is only in my own games.
Why not make the kreen racial memory a vision of the future? Perhaps its as weird an idea as time travel since the TotDL Raaig entry clearly puts the timetable surrounding the Great One's appearance as being in the past, more specifically when "refugees [fled] the genocidal armies of the terrible Champions". Plus...all raaig date from the Green Age.
Btw, Cliff clearly stated that his 'Oronis meets Keltis' chicken-in-the-egg idea is seperate from his 'future Oronis goes back in time and engenders the Great One myth' idea.
Canon states that Rajaat is the inventor of arcane magic, and Oronis as the inventor of the avangion process (itself adapted from the dragon process...so there needs to be a dragon process in the first place for it to be achieved), so a mention of a being seeming to be an anvangion (and yes, avangions are arcane...a Blue Age rhulisti can't pull it off) before Oronis existed has to be either A) due to time travel, or B) not an avangion.
Like Cliff mentionned, the 2E avangion entry left a marvelous door opened for time travel as a plot device, already integrated in the transformation process.
The only other idea that woukd go hand in hand with canon would be that the TotDL being is not an avangion (that's option B above). This, however, is made even more nebulous knowing that in other DS products Korgunard is called a Great One....
So WTF? A) time travel, or B) not an avangion. ???
Too bad then that the existing, official timeline is already screwed up. Cliff's idea is a way to fix that.
There are lots of contradictions in the material. I've spent a good deal of time finding interesting and believable ways to reconcile contradictions. I don't find this proposed reconcilliation interesting or believable. Plus it's been done before, in Mind Lords. I think we can come up with better.
[INDENT]Why not make the kreen racial memory a vision of the future? Perhaps its as weird an idea as time travel since the TotDL Raaig entry clearly puts the timetable surrounding the Great One's appearance as being in the past, more specifically when "refugees [fled] the genocidal armies of the terrible Champions". [/INDENT]
That's not an objective timeline; it's describes what one person believes that he saw. It refers to a "winged halfling." That's might be interpreted as an avangion, but it's hardly a shoe-in. The whole great one description in TotDL speaks of WORSHIP, and that's how it's described in Dragon's Crown as well. Prophesy fits the religion paradigm better than Time Travel. Both ideas might be weird, but one is weird in the same way that the Great one idea is weird, and the other one is weird in the say that Star Trek and Mind Lords of the Lost Sea are weird. I have no objection to weirdness so long as we don't substitute one form of weirdness for another.
[INDENT]Plus...all raaig date from the Green Age.[/INDENT]
So?
[INDENT]Btw, Cliff clearly stated that his 'Oronis meets Keltis' chicken-in-the-egg idea is seperate from his 'future Oronis goes back in time and engenders the Great One myth' idea. [/INDENT]
Oronis meets Keltis fits nicely within the prophesy paradigm; see the Dead Zone, season 1, episode 11, Shaman. "Oronis goes back in time and engenders the Great One myth' idea" is a yawner to me because it duplicates the Mind Lords plot.
[INDENT]Canon states that Rajaat is the inventor of arcane magic, and Oronis as the inventor of the avangion process (itself adapted from the dragon process...so there needs to be a dragon process in the first place for it to be achieved), so a mention of a being seeming to be an anvangion (and yes, avangions are arcane...a Blue Age rhulisti can't pull it off) before Oronis existed has to be either A) due to time travel, or B) not an avangion.[/INDENT]
It seems to me that you are taking a sledgehammer approach to something that you should approach with a scalpel. You assume for example that to invent means that no one else did it before you. In any universe that operates by fixed principles, multiple people can invent things independently. The Egyptians invented the sliding pin lock, and Yale Corporation independently invented it 3000 years later. Evolution duplicates itself along the same lines where the laws of nature create a convenient niche, for example, whales really do look life fish in a lot of ways, even though one's a mammal, and the other one an icthiod.
But we don't have to go that far to reconcile things, or even resort to my prophesy idea. If there was a "Great One" in history that looked like what we now call an avangion, and was a great force for good, then it's logical that Keltis/Oronis would make choices his transformation into something that looked like a Great One.
[INDENT]The only other idea that woukd go hand in hand with canon would be that the TotDL being is not an avangion (that's option B above). This, however, is made even more nebulous knowing that in other DS products Korgunard is called a Great One....[/INDENT]
We already know that Korgunard got the transformation spell from Oronis. If Oronis patterned his transformation to look like the Great One, then it's obvious that the Kreen would notice the similarity, just as someone that doesn't know what a whale is might call it a big fish.
[INDENT]So WTF? A) time travel, or B) not an avangion. ???[/INDENT]
B) Not an avangion, and either b1) Oronis patterned himself after the great one, or b2) the halfling patterned himself after a vision of Oronis or some future avangion.
There's some joke lurking around the fact that Korgunard ended up eaten by a halfling (Pakk, IIRC), but I'm too tired to tease it out, and you don't seem to have appreciated my duct tape joke which my wife found uproarously funny.
Alternately it could have been some sort of manipulated puppet created by the xic-chil, to bring the kreen into domination. If that seems like too much of a shock, that something that appears to be so good could have an ugly underside, read Forest Maker again.
Like I said, there are all sorts of ways to reconcile contradictions. Time Travel is the cheapest sort of duct-tape, and seems to me to be the last desparate resort of a storyteller that's out of ideas. Someone said something about "judicious" use of time travel. Judicious use of time travel means building the whole story around the time travel, and carefully shoring up all contradictions. Plugging it into an existing story is *not* judicious.
But if that's too cheap, and uninteresting for you, then so be it. for me, it helps provuide depth to theAvangion -- through a single-time event they have to reach back and gain understanding. Does Oronis need to be the "great one" -- no, that could really be any Avangion -- I picked Oronis because he's the only currently existing Avangion as far as the materials are concerned. And when I picked Oronis, I thought it would be interesting to introduce what basically was a paradox in time. Saying that Orionis couldn't have done it the first time is somewhat limited in thinking, because Oronis could have still achieved the whole change of personality and transformation into an Avangion, but at a later date -- he may have pushed himself to attempt it earler, to start the ball rolling before it would have "normally" happened.
I honestly think that people get just a little uptight about time travel. I get quite a bit of friction for this idea, and usually because people don't seem to like the time travel idea, or they don't like something else, and then also apply it to the time travel idea. If you don't like Oronis meeting himself, that's easy enough to fix. If you don't like Oronis being the "great one", once again, that is easy to fix. However, established materials point to Avangions in the past. And yet materials also point to Oronis as being more or less the inventor of the process. So somewhere, there should be a reconciliation (the whole point of these "inconsistancy" threads). I chose the "path less traveled" a bit, but was workking on a creative way to reconcile a few different inconsistancies and weak points in the system.
And it does not even come close to being what is in Mind Lords. In fact, the whole "prophesy" scenario is much closer -- the Mind Lords scryed into the future to see what would come of Saragar, and from that vision, determined what to do. There would be no real difference between that, and Kreen looking into the future to see an Avangion, and basing a religious experience around it. My idea is nowhere near that.
THAT part is cool. I don't know what the epic rules folks will say about weaving time travel into the Avangion transformation, but as a storyteller, I love it.
What I dislike is the general idea of using time travel to plug apparent inconsistencies. That's what I find cheap, not your rather cool idea about how this works into the Avangion transformation. I'm sorry for being unclear.
Too bad then that the existing, official timeline is already screwed up. Cliff's idea is a way to fix that.
it is a way true, but it has its downsides and its flaws which is what we are stating.
Why not make the kreen racial memory a vision of the future? Perhaps its as weird an idea as time travel since the TotDL Raaig entry clearly puts the timetable surrounding the Great One's appearance as being in the past, more specifically when "refugees [fled] the genocidal armies of the terrible Champions". Plus...all raaig date from the Green Age.
but the things also show that the Great One and the Avangion while linked are not nessecarily the same. So the Avangion could have easily been a psionic projection or a vision of the future.... note something of this nature WAS done in the cannon for the last sea area. The mindlords were warned ahead by future selves of the issues with the cleansing war.... so yes time travel is possible.... but making it part of the avangion proccess was entirely Cliffs idea. All that the rules have ever said was that it departs for Planes unknown.... nothing about going down the time stream.... this was an intersting idea that Cliff thought up. In fact by how it is written it would fit more for the Avangion to end up in the Upper Planes of the great wheel and see the wonders of thoise worlds.... but again that is up to the individual DM. Forcing the history to state that Oronis went back in time in a future where he completes the metamorphosis is NOT supported in any way by cannon.... in fact by doing so you are forcing DM's to accept that Oronis cannot be killed prior to completing the metamorphosis.
Btw, Cliff clearly stated that his 'Oronis meets Keltis' chicken-in-the-egg idea is seperate from his 'future Oronis goes back in time and engenders the Great One myth' idea.
But the point is, if ANY of his research is based off the legends of "himself", other ideas of avangions from the past, in a past time.... it makes the entire research into being an Avangion a paradox.
Canon states that Rajaat is the inventor of arcane magic, and Oronis as the inventor of the avangion process (itself adapted from the dragon process...so there needs to be a dragon process in the first place for it to be achieved), so a mention of a being seeming to be an anvangion (and yes, avangions are arcane...a Blue Age rhulisti can't pull it off) before Oronis existed has to be either A) due to time travel, or B) not an avangion.
Actually it states Rajaat "discovered" magic while studying the basis of Life-Shaping, not that he invented it.... just like Columbus "discovered" America..... there is a huge difference in those words.... that does not mean others did not discover the concepts behind it in a prior time. It calls him the First Sorcerer, because he unlocked the secrets of magic not because he invented it... which means he codified and taught natural rules and laws to help make it easier to teach. (what is funny is that by the histories, places that had lots of lifeshaping seemed to be stronger places for arcane magic.... this is actually from the defilers and preservers book in the section on the history of magic.) Add to this, Rajaat refined his magic by studying things that he aquired as he plundered the Pristine Tower.
And it states Oronis "developed" the preserver metamorphosis spell.... ie he researched and made an epic spell by current rules. This does not mean others could not do the same. and given that magic is based on the things Rajaat pieced together from studying Life Shaping, there is nothing showing others with more access to such things (such as the halfling/rhulisti described as being the avangion with the great one) would not have also been able to develope the proccess
Like Cliff mentionned, the 2E avangion entry left a marvelous door opened for time travel as a plot device, already integrated in the transformation process.
Actually as I said above, Cliff's idea that Avagion goes back/forward in time during the final stage of the preserver metamorphosis is an interesting idea.... but frankly is not supported by cannon. Note it does not specifically say that it could not happen, but it does not in ANY way say that it does. It states that the Avangion disappears to Planes unknown.... that is all.
The only other idea that woukd go hand in hand with canon would be that the TotDL being is not an avangion (that's option B above). This, however, is made even more nebulous knowing that in other DS products Korgunard is called a Great One....
So WTF? A) time travel, or B) not an avangion. ???
Actually if we go by the TotDL info.... then technically the creature with the Great One would NOT be an Avangion, because by the rules at the time only humans could be Avangions.... and it was described as a rhulisti avangion..... which gives a couple other ideas.... though now any race can be avangions.
It could also be that all Avangions are considered Great Ones by the kreen, because of the memory of the first one.... which may or may not have even been an Avangion.... it could be that the Avangions of the preserver metamorphosis spell school are a lesser form of an original form of something the Rhulisti created.
Or it is possible that there were Avangions prior based of the arcane secrets that Rajaat discovered.... as he did not create them but rather discovered them.... this leaves it open that he is not the only one to do so.... including the idea that a nonhuman (most likely halfling of some type to be honest) would be able to do so.... which means others could have realized how to start the dragon and avangion metamorphosis.
BTW I noticed something that messes with the concept of champions and dragons being part and parcel the same while looking for the wording on this stuff.. (from the revised rules and defilers and preservers *groan*) "Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs." It does not state storing as being a Champion ability.... it shows drawing magical energy for spells as being a champion ability.
[INDENT]Honestly, the time travel thing was not just the whole "engender the belief in the Great One", but was also an effort to repair what I saw as a real lame mechanic in 2e, where Avangions were supposed to go to the outer planes and deal with good outsiders, which just doesn't work for my personal "sealed off" view of Athas. [/INDENT]
THAT part is cool. I don't know what the epic rules folks will say about weaving time travel into the Avangion transformation, but as a storyteller, I love it.
What I dislike is using time travel to plug apparent inconsistencies. That's what I find cheap, not your rather cool story about how this works into the Avangion transformation. I'm sorry for being unclear.
I can understand, I know there are weak points, which is why I said that things can be altered on those points. Just don't ditch the whole idea because you hate one easily mutable part.
I can understand, I know there are weak points, which is why I said that things can be altered on those points. Just don't ditch the whole idea because you hate one easily mutable part.
I'm *not* ditching the whole idea. Please reread what I said about visions.
Like I said above, I like the idea of Keltis meets Oronis in some way. I've suggested a way to do it that fits the theme of the great one, rather than following the trekish theme of Mind Lords. I'm a star trek fan, mind you; that's not a put-down. I'm just saying as a storyteller, the strong worshipful overtones of the Great One story in TotDL and Dragon's Crown, clash with time travel per se, plus it's been done already in Mind Lords.
Exploring unknown planes could also fit in with the visionary description; think of Paul in Dune exploring the past and *different* potential futures but not really directly interacting with them. The Dead Zone episode I mentioned, and some other ones in season 3, also give ideas for this more mystical vision-ish form of time-travel and meeting with a past self. It's essentially the same as your idea, except that Oronis ends up only interacting with a few individuals rather than being a great high-profile leader.
I'm *not* ditching the whole idea. Please reread what I said about visions.
Like I said above, I like the idea of Keltis meets Oronis in some way. I've suggested a way to do it that fits the theme of the great one, rather than following the trekish theme of Mind Lords. I'm a star trek fan, mind you; that's not a put-down. I'm just saying as a storyteller, the strong worshipful overtones of the Great One story in TotDL and Dragon's Crown, clash with time travel per se, plus it's been done already in Mind Lords.
Exploring unknown planes could also fit in with the visionary description; think of Paul in Dune exploring the past and *different* potential futures but not really directly interacting with them. The Dead Zone episode I mentioned, and some other ones in season 3, also give ideas for this more mystical vision-ish form of time-travel and meeting with a past self. It's essentially the same as your idea, except that Oronis ends up only interacting with a few individuals rather than being a great high-profile leader.
Well, I don't watch Dead Zone, so I'll have to take your word for it. The idea that Oronis having mystical visions of the past could be interesting.... I was already (in an earlier post) considering ideas of it being only times that he himself had lived through (and he's been around for a while), which if he ends up tucking away in some alternate pocket dimension for the period of that spell, and then sort of "visits" places within the timeline of his own life, without really being there physically, that could be an interesting approach to the idea (if I'm getting what you are saying). I guess the idea then would be that the Kreen leader then somehow maybe saw Oronis in some other vision, or somehow saw into whatever realm Oronis actually was in when he was wandering around otherwise invisible (and non-existent). The worship of the great one is pretty strong within the Kreen... so that leader (I am terrible with names) could have promoted an entire religion around this "great one" he witnessed.
While we're at it, if Oronis happened to be viewing an area that Keltis happened to cross through at some point, maybe there was some odd unrecognizeable link that occured which unsettled Keltis -- maybe he felt the troubled, guilt-ridden other version of himself's emotions, without understanding it? And as it was him, just a future version of himself, he might not have actually recognized them as being from some external source?
Well, I don't watch Dead Zone, so I'll have to take your word for it. The idea that Oronis having mystical visions of the past could be interesting.... I was already (in an earlier post) considering ideas of it being only times that he himself had lived through (and he's been around for a while), which if he ends up tucking away in some alternate pocket dimension for the period of that spell, and then sort of "visits" places within the timeline of his own life, without really being there physically, that could be an interesting approach to the idea (if I'm getting what you are saying). I guess the idea then would be that the Kreen leader then somehow maybe saw Oronis in some other vision, or somehow saw into whatever realm Oronis actually was in when he was wandering around otherwise invisible (and non-existent). The worship of the great one is pretty strong within the Kreen... so that leader (I am terrible with names) could have promoted an entire religion around this "great one" he witnessed.
While we're at it, if Oronis happened to be viewing an area that Keltis happened to cross through at some point, maybe there was some odd unrecognizeable link that occured which unsettled Keltis -- maybe he felt the troubled, guilt-ridden other version of himself's emotions, without understanding it? And as it was him, just a future version of himself, he might not have actually recognized them as being from some external source?
The concept of an Avangion views its own past in an outside of time aspect, during the last stage of metamorphosis, is a really good one Cliff. And the idea that the emotions/psychic imprint flowing over into the actual past is alot better than actually going back in time and causing a paradox.... as the emotions will not cause a change... will just tweak it a bit... which is alot better.
I still disagree on Oronis being considered the Great One of legend, even if it was the kreen leader just viewing him in the future.... mainly because others also saw the avangion-like creature. And while it is possible for the racial memory to have the vision in it... It would have less impact than something actually seen. And it actually has a rather dramatic effect on kreen that see Avangions.
Well, I don't watch Dead Zone, so I'll have to take your word for it. The idea that Oronis having mystical visions of the past could be interesting.... I was already (in an earlier post) considering ideas of it being only times that he himself had lived through (and he's been around for a while), which if he ends up tucking away in some alternate pocket dimension for the period of that spell, and then sort of "visits" places within the timeline of his own life, without really being there physically, that could be an interesting approach to the idea (if I'm getting what you are saying). I guess the idea then would be that the Kreen leader then somehow maybe saw Oronis in some other vision, or somehow saw into whatever realm Oronis actually was in when he was wandering around otherwise invisible (and non-existent). The worship of the great one is pretty strong within the Kreen... so that leader (I am terrible with names) could have promoted an entire religion around this "great one" he witnessed.
While we're at it, if Oronis happened to be viewing an area that Keltis happened to cross through at some point, maybe there was some odd unrecognizeable link that occured which unsettled Keltis -- maybe he felt the troubled, guilt-ridden other version of himself's emotions, without understanding it? And as it was him, just a future version of himself, he might not have actually recognized them as being from some external source?
nod ... you need to go rent Season 1, episode 11 of the dead zone: "Shaman," to see what I'm saying. You don't need to see the others to understand it. It's interaction between past and future, in a much more mystical and DM/storyteller-controlled environment, than time-travel, which has a different feel altogether and opens up infinite unpredictable avenues for mischief. Time travel has too many moving parts for us to plug it into a story already in play without creating unforseen problems.
Pay attention to how the native american image comes to be in "Shaman." You don't notice it at first, and it's subtle, and it really fits the idea of the Great One image. Even though only one man in the tribe saw him, he shaped the lives of their whole community.
The concept of an Avangion views its own past in an outside of time aspect, during the last stage of metamorphosis, is a really good one Cliff. And the idea that the emotions/psychic imprint flowing over into the actual past is alot better than actually going back in time and causing a paradox.... as the emotions will not cause a change... will just tweak it a bit... which is alot better.
Agreed!
[INDENT]I still disagree on Oronis being considered the Great One of legend, even if it was the kreen leader just viewing him in the future.... mainly because others also saw the avangion-like creature. And while it is possible for the racial memory to have the vision in it... It would have less impact than something actually seen. .[/INDENT]
I disagree. Every fictional or claimed truthful account that I've read of a vision purported to have *MORE* of an impact than stuff that the visionary had seen with her own eyes. A racial memory of a vision would probably have more influence on a culture than any memory of a real event. Look at the influence that the Bible or the Qu'ran or any other book of purported visions has on a culture, and then multiply it by ten, because the kreen all *personally* have the image in their minds, with all of the accumulated emotions and reverence that their ancestors felt towards the image of the vision.
I disagree. Every fictional or claimed truthful account that I've read of a vision purported to have *MORE* of an impact than anything the person had seen. A racial memory of a vision would probably have more influence on a culture than any memory of a real event. Look at the influence that the Bible or the Qu'ran or any other book of purported visions has on a culture, and then multiply it by ten, because the kreen all *personally* have the image in their minds, with all of the accumulated emotions and reverence that their ancestors felt towards the image of the vision.
even given that... the vision that they have does not match Oronis, or what Oronis would look like at the final stage of the metamorphosis.... by the only physical description we have of it.
Alternately, maybe most kreen don't have Ka'cha's memories. Maybe only a few remember what the first Great One to appear looked like, but that other creatures (like the halfling) were patterned after the image of Oronis. Just like Egyptian monarchs patterned their outfits to match the gods of their legends, someone that wanted to lead Kreen, and happened to come from a civilization with life shaping capabilities, could do a more extreme makeover, to fit the role of the Great One.
Gab and I led the original TotDL team, and IIRC this particular piece was Will's work. I believe that Will and Paul, who's on the bureau of epic affairs, have unpublished work on what they call the Great One Kingdom. You might want to ask them if some release on this is pending, to avert project collision. I suspect they might have some interesting things to say here.
But xlorepdarkhelm's idea is that Oronis makes the trip *DURING* the transformation, and who knows what he looks like during that.
If it was during the the earlier transformations then it becomes moot if it is part of the actual avngion metamorphosis..... as time travel at that point would have NOTHING to do with the avangion proccess.... just be him choosing to go back in time....
If it is during the final spell then the avangion would be something between a stage 9 and a stage 10 in appearance.... either way it is basically a giant glowing butterfly of immense size
Alternately, maybe most kreen don't have Ka'cha's memories. Maybe only a few remember what the first Great One to appear looked like, but that other creatures (like the halfling) were patterned after the image of Oronis. Just like Egyptian monarchs patterned their outfits to match the gods of their legends, someone that wanted to lead Kreen, and happened to come from a civilization with life shaping capabilities, could do a more extreme makeover, to fit the role of the Great One.
This would make alot of sense actually.... and would be interesting if a bit convolted. And would work weird with a kreens mindset.... but an interesting take on it which could work.
Gab and I led the original TotDL team, and IIRC this particular piece was Will's work. I believe that Will and Paul, who's on the bureau of epic affairs, have unpublished work on what they call the Great One Kingdom. You might want to ask them if some release on this is pending, to avert project collision. I suspect they might have some interesting things to say here.
If anyone gets any word from them on it I would love to hear what they have on it.
I like your justification for time travel as a means to restore Athas. I agree that it fits in with the setting much better than "travel to the outer planes." As seeker mentioned, I just really didn't care for the "time paradox" included in the Keltis Champion / Oronis Avangion encounter.
TheBrax also offers up some great ideals regarding "the Great One" / avangions. Perhaps avangion form is based on a previously existing notion in Kreen culture. Reverse-engineering "prophecy" sounds plausible as the developer's of the avangion spell would be looking for something to model themselves upon. The ideal of "independent invention" is compelling as well (whale and fish having the same shape, various cultures "inventing" the same technology despite not having contact.)
Finally, to continue with Seker's ideal, perhaps both avangion / dragon form were ideals stemming from the nature benders. They might have wanted to merge their own essences with that of the "other" humaniod races (the Kreen or Nikaal) on Athas in order to transform themselves into a higher power of sorts. The could explain the "flying halfling" form of the "Great One," not to mention provide historical basis for both metamorphasis spells.
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I personally don't see why people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction against time-travel, especially when it is used judiciously.
The Mind Lords supplement has time travel/scrying in it. And that is part of the "official" time line and history.
If it was during the the earlier transformations then it becomes moot if it is part of the actual avngion metamorphosis..... as time travel at that point would have NOTHING to do with the avangion proccess.... just be him choosing to go back in time....
If it is during the final spell then the avangion would be something between a stage 9 and a stage 10 in appearance.... either way it is basically a giant glowing butterfly of immense size.
Now you're assuming time travel, or some sort of literal physical projection. Read some of the mindscape descriptions in the PP. Someone's who's shifted nine or ten times, what's their self-image going to be? How will they remember themselves? Not something you can adjudicate or predict.
[INDENT]This would make alot of sense actually.... and would be interesting if a bit convolted. And would work weird with a kreens mindset.... but an interesting take on it which could work. If anyone gets any word from them on it I would love to hear what they have on it[/INDENT]
I don't dare start a conversation on that, or I'll never finish my other projects. I've got to stay out of that because it's too interesting, and if I get sucked in you'll never see Kurn.
The Mind Lords supplement has time travel/scrying in it. And that is part of the "official" time line and history.
Addressed that already at least twice. See above.
{{Originally Posted by TheBrax
Alternately, maybe most kreen don't have Ka'cha's memories. Maybe only a few remember what the first Great One to appear looked like, but that other creatures (like the halfling) were patterned after the image of Oronis. Just like Egyptian monarchs patterned their outfits to match the gods of their legends, someone that wanted to lead Kreen, and happened to come from a civilization with life shaping capabilities, could do a more extreme makeover, to fit the role of the Great One.}}
This would make alot of sense actually.... and would be interesting if a bit convolted. And would work weird with a kreens mindset.... but an interesting take on it which could work.
IIRC, there were some Sout American Kings, I think the Mayas, that performed horrid and painful skull reshapings with boards, and strange genital mutilations as part of fitting the role of God-King. Beats me how that got started. Such an act by a line of kings on Athas would make a lot more sense than what the Mayas did. The show I saw said that the prevailing thought on why the Maya empire fell apart is that something happened to dispell the myth that the King was god, and the people just walked out of the cities and didn't come back.
(One amusing bit of info: according to the Maya Calendar, the world ends on December 21, 2012 :D )
Now you're assuming time travel, or some sort of literal physical projection. Read some of the mindscape descriptions in the PP. Someone's who's shifted nine or ten times, what's their self-image going to be? How will they remember themselves? Not something you can adjudicate or predict.
Um I am not assuming time travel or literal projection... Actual time travel was what Cliff was discussing... I was discussing his idea not making ademdums to it.
Cliff was discussing actual time travel in his version of the Avangions way back and he is the one who suggested that instead of going to other Planes as the actual spell description states that instead they would go back and forward in time on the FINAL stage of the metamorphosis. His original version of this was that a future version of Oronis went back in time and was the avangions seen in the past before Oronis started the metamorphosis.
Note the original spell, and the current one just states that the Avangion and structure disappear to planes unknown... It does NOT say it goes to the outer planes or far realms or any of that.... that is strictly up to the GM. (as it always has been)
I like his current idea he mentioned on here about it being more of a witnessing things that happened throughout their own lifetime.... but that is a side topic and is not what I was discussing about why I dislike making time travel itself a part of the Avangion proccess/making Oronis the Great One of legend.
Personally I do allow time travel in my own games (including with the massive limitations put on it by the darksun rules from 2nd edition.... which meant you lost massive amounts of levels in time traveling) and if a player wants to do it more power to them..... BUT I do not make it a core part of one of the most important creature types in the game.... After all one bad paradox and you just removed Avangions entirely from the game. Now having them view the past and future of Athas as part of the final stage as an immaterial/out of phase observer is an entirely different thing... and would be a really good idea. But letting them change history/the future during their transformation.... I think not.
And I am sorry, even a SK who has been alive for thousands of years, would still have a similiar mindscape to what shaped them the most in their lives.... the Cleansing wars.... and Oronis is plagued by guilt over the slaughter of the lizard men..... you think that is not going to be pretty much instantly recognized by his epic level psionic younger self??? If not who he is immediately .... but the fact that he is a champion... and one linked to lizardmen???
[INDENT]Originally Posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, I don't watch Dead Zone, so I'll have to take your word for it. The idea that Oronis having mystical visions of the past could be interesting.... I was already (in an earlier post) considering ideas of it being only times that he himself had lived through (and he's been around for a while), which if he ends up tucking away in some alternate pocket dimension for the period of that spell, and then sort of "visits" places within the timeline of his own life, without really being there physically, that could be an interesting approach to the idea (if I'm getting what you are saying). I guess the idea then would be that the Kreen leader then somehow maybe saw Oronis in some other vision, or somehow saw into whatever realm Oronis actually was in when he was wandering around otherwise invisible (and non-existent). The worship of the great one is pretty strong within the Kreen... so that leader (I am terrible with names) could have promoted an entire religion around this "great one" he witnessed.
While we're at it, if Oronis happened to be viewing an area that Keltis happened to cross through at some point, maybe there was some odd unrecognizeable link that occured which unsettled Keltis -- maybe he felt the troubled, guilt-ridden other version of himself's emotions, without understanding it? And as it was him, just a future version of himself, he might not have actually recognized them as being from some external source?
The concept of an Avangion views its own past in an outside of time aspect, during the last stage of metamorphosis, is a really good one Cliff. And the idea that the emotions/psychic imprint flowing over into the actual past is alot better than actually going back in time and causing a paradox.... as the emotions will not cause a change... will just tweak it a bit... which is alot better.
I still disagree on Oronis being considered the Great One of legend, even if it was the kreen leader just viewing him in the future.... mainly because others also saw the avangion-like creature. And while it is possible for the racial memory to have the vision in it... It would have less impact than something actually seen. And it actually has a rather dramatic effect on kreen that see Avangions.[/INDENT]
Um I am not assuming time travel or literal projection... Actual time travel was what Cliff was discussing... I was discussing his idea not making ademdums to it.
Cliff was discussing actual time travel in his version of the Avangions way back and he is the one who suggested that instead of going to other Planes as the actual spell description states that instead they would go back and forward in time on the FINAL stage of the metamorphosis. His original version of this was that a future version of Oronis went back in time and was the avangions seen in the past before Oronis started the metamorphosis.
Might want to catch up with the conversation then, seems that you are still back about 6 posts or more ago, if you are still nitpicking about that.
I like his current idea he mentioned on here about it being more of a witnessing things that happened throughout their own lifetime.... but that is a side topic and is not what I was discussing about why I dislike making time travel itself a part of the Avangion proccess/making Oronis the Great One of legend.
But, that is the direction that the discussion has gone. Going back to arguing against the hollistic time travel and the bad parts of it, is basically taking steps backward, rather than moving forward with the discussion. You also seem to keep wanting to put two separate ideas, stick them together, and then deny both of them on the merits of one.
Personally I do allow time travel in my own games (including with the massive limitations put on it by the darksun rules from 2nd edition.... which meant you lost massive amounts of levels in time traveling) and if a player wants to do it more power to them..... BUT I do not make it a core part of one of the most important creature types in the game.... After all one bad paradox and you just removed Avangions entirely from the game. Now having them view the past and future of Athas as part of the final stage as an immaterial/out of phase observer is an entirely different thing... and would be a really good idea. But letting them change history/the future during their transformation.... I think not.
Which is why we were h3eading the direction of a more observer situation, which you don't seem to have a problem with. I do have a problem, while we're at it, with the automatic assumption of a temporal paradox. Especially in the light of modern quantum mechanics & wave theory, which suggests that there are infinite futures and infinite pasts, where it can be seen as little changes -- decisions or whatever, spawn a completely new divergent set of paths. In that case, the paradox wouold not actually be a paradox, for the moment it actually happened, there would be simply two paths -- one where it didn't happen, and one where it did. But, this is still a relatively pointless topic, considering where the discussion of the thread has already been heading.
And I am sorry, even a SK who has been alive for thousands of years, would still have a similiar mindscape to what shaped them the most in their lives.... the Cleansing wars.... and Oronis is plagued by guilt over the slaughter of the lizard men..... you think that is not going to be pretty much instantly recognized by his epic level psionic younger self??? If not who he is immediately .... but the fact that he is a champion... and one linked to lizardmen???
Unfamiliar with the notion of "mindscape" in the context here. I don't see how this even is applicable at all -- the whole point of Oronis seeing himself in the past, or Keltis seeing his future self, is that Keltis recognizes himself. So arguing that he would recognize himself would be like arguing that water is wet.
Agreed!
[INDENT]I still disagree on Oronis being considered the Great One of legend, even if it was the kreen leader just viewing him in the future.... mainly because others also saw the avangion-like creature. And while it is possible for the racial memory to have the vision in it... It would have less impact than something actually seen. .[/INDENT]
I disagree. Every fictional or claimed truthful account that I've read of a vision purported to have *MORE* of an impact than stuff that the visionary had seen with her own eyes. A racial memory of a vision would probably have more influence on a culture than any memory of a real event. Look at the influence that the Bible or the Qu'ran or any other book of purported visions has on a culture, and then multiply it by ten, because the kreen all *personally* have the image in their minds, with all of the accumulated emotions and reverence that their ancestors felt towards the image of the vision.
Oh -- when I was talking about an analogous "Image" in that Dead Zone "Shaman" episode, I'm refering to the recurring PETROGLYPH Image that you see at the beginning and then again at the end of the show (much more amazing once you realize what the petroglyph represents!)
Might want to catch up with the conversation then, seems that you are still back about 6 posts or more ago, if you are still nitpicking about that.
Actually Cliff I was responding to the current conversation and my statement was either misunderstod or taken out of context.
He was discussing that, who knows how they might look.... And I was mentioning that since you were discussing a move (whether, physical or non) that the Avangion would make when casting the 10th lstage spell. Then their form would be that of something between a 9th and 10th stage avangion.... it was NOT mentioned that it was a voyage just in the mind to make it a mindscape representation.... though even in that case the character would be instantly recognizable.
Now if it is a case of the Avangion disappearing out of the time space continuum and viewing the events from outside, this is still valid idea to avoid paradox and changes to the past.
And note as the Avangions body actually disappears during the spell for up to two years, it really does not make sense for it to be a strictly mental journey anywhere.
But, that is the direction that the discussion has gone. Going back to arguing against the hollistic time travel and the bad parts of it, is basically taking steps backward, rather than moving forward with the discussion. You also seem to keep wanting to put two separate ideas, stick them together, and then deny both of them on the merits of one.
I was answering his questions on the way they would look by that statement,
I then mentioned that no matter what version we are talking about we are talking about Oronis future self influencing the past which is the MAIN thing I am against. I am sorry I did not explain it well
I HATE the idea of forcing a timeline where a current character MUST survive to a future point or the current timeline disappears.
Which is why we were h3eading the direction of a more observer situation, which you don't seem to have a problem with. I do have a problem, while we're at it, with the automatic assumption of a temporal paradox. Especially in the light of modern quantum mechanics & wave theory, which suggests that there are infinite futures and infinite pasts, where it can be seen as little changes -- decisions or whatever, spawn a completely new divergent set of paths. In that case, the paradox wouold not actually be a paradox, for the moment it actually happened, there would be simply two paths -- one where it didn't happen, and one where it did. But, this is still a relatively pointless topic, considering where the discussion of the thread has already been heading.
Actually Cliff I am quite aware of the theories you are talking about. But the point is that you cannot go back into your OWN time and cause an event that leads up to your own use of time travel.... that is the paradox.... other things can be changed and cause a valid divergent reality.... but actually requiring a change that will cause the time travel itself causes paradox by its nature.
Unfamiliar with the notion of "mindscape" in the context here. I don't see how this even is applicable at all -- the whole point of Oronis seeing himself in the past, or Keltis seeing his future self, is that Keltis recognizes himself. So arguing that he would recognize himself would be like arguing that water is wet.
And as long as you make the time travel/viewing etc modify his past self to the point of him starting the avangion.... and this journey is caused by the casting of th3 10th stage spell..... then you cause paradox.
Now if you are talking about him doing this at some other point.... which you have NOT made that clear .... and that is a totally different issue. And even on an actual time travel issue I have less problems.... still don't like it on alot of levels but it at least is not violating temporal mechanics as much.
But as far as I was aware you were still talking about having this be part of the Avangion proccess itself not independant research
Now you're assuming time travel, or some sort of literal physical projection. Read some of the mindscape descriptions in the PP. Someone's who's shifted nine or ten times, what's their self-image going to be? How will they remember themselves? Not something you can adjudicate or predict.
OK, I like that a lot. Oronis is the Great One of legend, but did not actually time travel back but instead projected his mind in the past from his crystal tomb (see the avangion process), and this mind projection matches what he imagines himself to be: part avangion (his newest identity) and part ancient halfling (an older identity he's aimed for ever since Rajaat forced the Blue Age visions on him....and currently Oronis is trying to recreate a mix of Green and Blue Age civilization/environment over at New Kurn...so this supports the veneration and respect he'd feel for the ancient halflings).