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Ur-Flan gods?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
simpi
Mar 30, 2004 14:08:38 Hello.

I'm looking information what were the major gods served by Ur-Flan.

More importanly i'm looking for an evil god that could have been worshipped in area which is now North Kingdom/Adri Forest/Bone March.

I can only think of Nerull or Vecna and i'm not quite sure if Vecna's influence ever reached that far, though according to Ivid the Undying there are plenty of Ur-Flan monuments in those area. So at the moment Nerull seems an ok idea.

Can you think of any others? Are there some 'lost gods' of Ur-flan or other stuff like that.

Thanks.
#2
cwslyclgh
Mar 30, 2004 14:26:33 I would say Nerull and Incabulos are the most likley suspects for worship by evil Ur-Flan.
#3
mortellan
Mar 30, 2004 15:52:18
I would say Nerull and Incabulos are the most likley suspects for worship by evil Ur-Flan.

I agree on those two as Ur-Flan gods, unfortunately given the timelines I'd have to say Tharizdun too. Vecna is a 'modern' god and wouldn't work. Given some accounts I've read, I'd say they also dabbled with demon-princes as well.

Incabulous interestingly has a sketchy pantheon origin and is presently only worshipped in abundance in Ull and the Tiger Nomads (LGG). On one hand, Ull was has virtually no Flan influences, while the Tiger nomads' live in an area close to a couple Flan tribes, the Uritag and Guryik that may have had Ur-Flan ties before the Chakyik's migration to that area. Otherwise it is written that Incabulous is worshipped secretly within hidden temples in subterranean areas and forsaken lands, so anything is possible.
#4
rilem
Mar 30, 2004 15:58:40 How long ago are we talking? I'd probably avoid any of the current-day deities, though Nerull could work under a different name.

I'd say aim lower — worship of Demons, Devils and assorted evil spirits would give you more of that primitive feel.
#5
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 16:41:00 The Ur-Flan in that region comprised a realm known as the Tyranny of Trask.

You can be sure they were not devotees of the Old Faith. Without sounding totally cliched, I think demonology was their dominant faith, with the possible exception of the Greater God nerull, who figured prominently among these necromancers.
#6
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 18:41:59 In my campaign, I have magical traditions based on race. I use a hybrid of Arcana Unearthed and the Player's Handbook to create a very distinctive 'feel' to the world.

Not anyone can become a wizard. You can't just up and say, "Today I think I'll learn wizardry!" which is pretty much the D&D standard.

In my campaign, the magical tradition known as wizardry is primarily the domain of the suel. Family tradition, sons taught by fathers or uncles, mothers handing down the secrets of wizardry to their daughters, along with a rich history of their suel heritage. This gives it a really nice 'flavour' in the world because there are only isolated pockets of suel people in the Flanaess that have any real ties to their heritage, so it makes Wizardry special and unique.

The few societies there are are primarily Oeridian as in my campaign, the Oerids were primarily natural spell-casters (sorcerers) however as they advanced, they began to see this as a flaw, since sorcery was haphazard at best and did not give you total control. It was great for battlefields and helped them gain a lot of the territory they did, but once they began forming nations, they slowly adopted (through force) wizardry, as in the system I use, there are simple, complex and exotic spells within each level, and only wizards have access to all three types, making them (if they can find the spells) the most powerful casters.

One of the changes I made to the AU system, is that I kept the boundries between arcane magic and divine magic. All positive and negative energy spells are the domain of clerics, priests, runethanes and shamans (greenbonds). And even then, due to one of the other changes I made to clerics (they now use spheres that are directly tied to the two domains they choose), their access to either is limited to the 'simple' spells. With a feat, an arcane spell-caster can gain access to one spell of a certain level. So necromancy is a very rare spell type.

The sole exception to this is suel necromancers. As a specialist wizard, specializing in necromancy, you gain access to all necromantic spells. This makes a necromancer very rare, and very powerful and also addresses the issue of clerics being generally more powerful in necromancy than wizards. In my system, it's the reverse.

However, such magicks are considered, 'the dark arts', and are generally not accepted in schools around the Flanaess and the oeridian wizards, since they stole their knowledge, simply don't know enough to specialize and so can't have necromancers. And given the suel tendancy to keep it in the family, and jealously guard their secrets, necromancers and necromancy are relatively unheard of.

The one exception to this was Vecna. In fact, he could be said to be the cause of why the suel people now guard their heritage and magical traditions so voraciously. He was a student of the dark arts, taught by an unknown suel necromancer (said to be, by some willing to risk their souls, Acererak). Vecna spread the knowledge amongst his faithful, for even as a general he believed himself a god. Through necromancy, he built his empire and cowed all those around him and had built in his name, temples throughout his lands.

In my campaign, 20th-level is the mortal limit. That's not to say you can't go beyond 20th-level, it's just to say that if your character remains mortal, that's as far as he can go. One of the ways around this, is lich-dom. A lich isn't just a powerful undead, they're also beyond 20th-level casters in my game. Not rotting corpses to be messed with. And that's how Vecna achieved god-hood in my world, through finding out how to become a lich, and thus exceeding mortal limits, and eventually finding out how to become a god.

Anyway... I thought it was cool, so that's why I shared it.
#7
zombiegleemax
Mar 30, 2004 20:48:49 The Ur-Flan were likely descendents of, or at least influenced by, ancient civilized Flan states like the Empire of Sulm in what is now the Bright Desert. Shattados worshipped Tharizdun, it is very likely many Ur-Flannae did as well. That would certainly help help explain all the unholy sites to Tharizdun constructed well before the migrations.

Vecna has certainly been around long enough to be a deity of the at least latter day Ur-Flannae. Nerull, and all the greater gods, have probably been around longer even than mortals. But Nerull's focus on death is a little narrow for the more arcane interests of the Ur-Flannae.

So my vote is for Tharizdun.
#8
simpi
Apr 01, 2004 8:12:14
Originally posted by PSmedger
The Ur-Flan in that region comprised a realm known as the Tyranny of Trask.

For what period did this realm exist? In common years please.
Where could I find more information?

Thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 simpi Mar 30, 2004 14:08:38	Hello. I'm looking information what were the major gods served by Ur-Flan. More importanly i'm looking for an evil god that could have been worshipped in area which is now North Kingdom/Adri Forest/Bone March. I can only think of Nerull or Vecna and i'm not quite sure if Vecna's influence ever reached that far, though according to Ivid the Undying there are plenty of Ur-Flan monuments in those area. So at the moment Nerull seems an ok idea. Can you think of any others? Are there some 'lost gods' of Ur-flan or other stuff like that. Thanks.
#2 cwslyclgh Mar 30, 2004 14:26:33	I would say Nerull and Incabulos are the most likley suspects for worship by evil Ur-Flan.
#3 mortellan Mar 30, 2004 15:52:18	I would say Nerull and Incabulos are the most likley suspects for worship by evil Ur-Flan. I agree on those two as Ur-Flan gods, unfortunately given the timelines I'd have to say Tharizdun too. Vecna is a 'modern' god and wouldn't work. Given some accounts I've read, I'd say they also dabbled with demon-princes as well. Incabulous interestingly has a sketchy pantheon origin and is presently only worshipped in abundance in Ull and the Tiger Nomads (LGG). On one hand, Ull was has virtually no Flan influences, while the Tiger nomads' live in an area close to a couple Flan tribes, the Uritag and Guryik that may have had Ur-Flan ties before the Chakyik's migration to that area. Otherwise it is written that Incabulous is worshipped secretly within hidden temples in subterranean areas and forsaken lands, so anything is possible.
#4 rilem Mar 30, 2004 15:58:40	How long ago are we talking? I'd probably avoid any of the current-day deities, though Nerull could work under a different name. I'd say aim lower — worship of Demons, Devils and assorted evil spirits would give you more of that primitive feel.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 16:41:00	The Ur-Flan in that region comprised a realm known as the Tyranny of Trask. You can be sure they were not devotees of the Old Faith. Without sounding totally cliched, I think demonology was their dominant faith, with the possible exception of the Greater God nerull, who figured prominently among these necromancers.
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 18:41:59	In my campaign, I have magical traditions based on race. I use a hybrid of Arcana Unearthed and the Player's Handbook to create a very distinctive 'feel' to the world. Not anyone can become a wizard. You can't just up and say, "Today I think I'll learn wizardry!" which is pretty much the D&D standard. In my campaign, the magical tradition known as wizardry is primarily the domain of the suel. Family tradition, sons taught by fathers or uncles, mothers handing down the secrets of wizardry to their daughters, along with a rich history of their suel heritage. This gives it a really nice 'flavour' in the world because there are only isolated pockets of suel people in the Flanaess that have any real ties to their heritage, so it makes Wizardry special and unique. The few societies there are are primarily Oeridian as in my campaign, the Oerids were primarily natural spell-casters (sorcerers) however as they advanced, they began to see this as a flaw, since sorcery was haphazard at best and did not give you total control. It was great for battlefields and helped them gain a lot of the territory they did, but once they began forming nations, they slowly adopted (through force) wizardry, as in the system I use, there are simple, complex and exotic spells within each level, and only wizards have access to all three types, making them (if they can find the spells) the most powerful casters. One of the changes I made to the AU system, is that I kept the boundries between arcane magic and divine magic. All positive and negative energy spells are the domain of clerics, priests, runethanes and shamans (greenbonds). And even then, due to one of the other changes I made to clerics (they now use spheres that are directly tied to the two domains they choose), their access to either is limited to the 'simple' spells. With a feat, an arcane spell-caster can gain access to one spell of a certain level. So necromancy is a very rare spell type. The sole exception to this is suel necromancers. As a specialist wizard, specializing in necromancy, you gain access to all necromantic spells. This makes a necromancer very rare, and very powerful and also addresses the issue of clerics being generally more powerful in necromancy than wizards. In my system, it's the reverse. However, such magicks are considered, 'the dark arts', and are generally not accepted in schools around the Flanaess and the oeridian wizards, since they stole their knowledge, simply don't know enough to specialize and so can't have necromancers. And given the suel tendancy to keep it in the family, and jealously guard their secrets, necromancers and necromancy are relatively unheard of. The one exception to this was Vecna. In fact, he could be said to be the cause of why the suel people now guard their heritage and magical traditions so voraciously. He was a student of the dark arts, taught by an unknown suel necromancer (said to be, by some willing to risk their souls, Acererak). Vecna spread the knowledge amongst his faithful, for even as a general he believed himself a god. Through necromancy, he built his empire and cowed all those around him and had built in his name, temples throughout his lands. In my campaign, 20th-level is the mortal limit. That's not to say you can't go beyond 20th-level, it's just to say that if your character remains mortal, that's as far as he can go. One of the ways around this, is lich-dom. A lich isn't just a powerful undead, they're also beyond 20th-level casters in my game. Not rotting corpses to be messed with. And that's how Vecna achieved god-hood in my world, through finding out how to become a lich, and thus exceeding mortal limits, and eventually finding out how to become a god. Anyway... I thought it was cool, so that's why I shared it.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 30, 2004 20:48:49	The Ur-Flan were likely descendents of, or at least influenced by, ancient civilized Flan states like the Empire of Sulm in what is now the Bright Desert. Shattados worshipped Tharizdun, it is very likely many Ur-Flannae did as well. That would certainly help help explain all the unholy sites to Tharizdun constructed well before the migrations. Vecna has certainly been around long enough to be a deity of the at least latter day Ur-Flannae. Nerull, and all the greater gods, have probably been around longer even than mortals. But Nerull's focus on death is a little narrow for the more arcane interests of the Ur-Flannae. So my vote is for Tharizdun.
#8 simpi Apr 01, 2004 8:12:14	Originally posted by PSmedger The Ur-Flan in that region comprised a realm known as the Tyranny of Trask. For what period did this realm exist? In common years please. Where could I find more information? Thanks.