Tracy Hickman has told us time and time again that Dragonlance is a shared world. It is a place where we can come together and each make our contribution. Why then, do several DMs and players find the Dragonlance Campaign Setting to be a disappointment? Why do some people only count the works of Weis and Hickman as cannon?
The sourcebook was made to be ambiguous so that each person could make the world of Kyrnn their own. It is a place of high fantasy and epic adventures, in other words, a world builders paradise. Places such as those found in the sourthern Kharolis are bearly if not at all mentioned in the first division (Dragons of... books) of Dragonlance novels.
If one does not make Kyrnn their own world, then it would be a very empty and hollow place. Why then, don't those people who complain go to a world like Forgotten Realms? That is highly detailed and allows much more diverse games from epic to psionic.
Dragonlance doesn't allow much variety like this, it is the feel, not the quantity that makes Dragonlance such a great and strong setting. The feeling that your 5th level PC is making a difference in your DM's adapted Dragonlance world is very rewarding. I always enjoy hearing about ron's kyrnn because ron has worked hard, knows exactly what his players like and is dedicated towards it. So please, go and do yourself a favour, check out dragonlance.com (my favourite), dragonlance nexus and Kipper's kencyclopedia.com for great hints and advice for making Dragonlance your own world.
They call forgotten realms 'forgotten' because many campaigns (not all!) are cliched and easily 'forgotten.' Don't let the same mistake happen because all you did was set a dungeon crawl in the mountains around Sanction.
Originally posted by Lily_Knight
Tracy Hickman has told us time and time again that Dragonlance is a shared world. It is a place where we can come together and each make our contribution. Why then, do several DMs and players find the Dragonlance Campaign Setting to be a disappointment? Why do some people only count the works of Weis and Hickman as cannon?
I agree with most of what you have said, however, why do many people only count Weis and Hickman's work as canon? I can't speak for everyone, but from my viewpoint, you have already answered your own question...
Originally posted by Lily_Knight
If one does not make Kyrnn their own world, then it would be a very empty and hollow place...
...Dragonlance doesn't allow much variety like this, it is the feel, not the quantity that makes Dragonlance such a great and strong setting.
Almost everyone here loves DL for different reasons, and we all have our own different views of Krynn/Ansalon. While I have enjoyed many of the DL books that I've read written by authors other than Weis and Hickman, many of them simply don't feel quite like the same world. In the most basic of explanations...they don't feel quite DL enough for me. So, while I may have enjoyed a particular book, I rarely ever consider it canon. When it comes to questions of canon, I usually dismiss these other books as "kendertales." There are a few notable exceptions, but that is the general rule for me.
Other authors have written many good books set in that same world, but few have caught or portrayed the same image of DL in my opinion. In some fashion or another, they seem out of place, and I find it hard to consider them canon.
But that is my interpretation of Krynn, and that is how I've made Krynn my own world. Weis and Hickman have a particular style of writing and storytelling which I love, and had the chronicles and legends been originally written by another, I probably would not have come to hold DL so dear nearly 20 years after first picking them up.
Also, in many ways, DL can be compared to D&D (and the SRD) and many of the supplements published by companies other than WoTC. WoTC has given us the game (ok, not going to argue it's origins), and others have given us secondary supplements. Some people take many of these supplements and hold them as official as the core rule books...I choose not to. That's my D&D.
So that's how and why I dismiss so much of the DL material out there, but I can then embrace books such as The Elven Nations or Night of Blood as canon. That, is my Krynn.
Originally posted by Lily_Knight
They call forgotten realms 'forgotten' because many campaigns (not all!) are cliched and easily 'forgotten.' Don't let the same mistake happen because all you did was set a dungeon crawl in the mountains around Sanction.
You could not be more wrong. A setting is not what makes role-playing a memorable experience, although in certain cases it helps, but rather the group of friends you play with and the work the DM puts into his games is what makes it memorable. Role-playing is a share experience.
I’m not a big fan of the Realms but I can’t stand by and see someone batch a world who obviously has dedicated designers. I much rather the DLCS had political statistic on all the nations and detail NPCs. Is simple to change what doesn’t agree with my campaign, I’m not a slave to canon, but is hard work and time consuming to create every little niche a cranny on the map. I love Dragonlance for its high adventure romantic feel. I enjoy the Realms once in a while for the freedom it offers.
To answer your question people only see Weis and Hickman’s work as canon because only up to recently just about everything else outside there work (novels, gaming modules) where consider not canon. So while Ron’s Dragonlance Campaign might be great is not official Dragonlance.
I've ran both Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, and I enjoyed each setting immensely. Certainly, Dragonlance is my setting of choice, but I had a lot of fun with the Forgotten Realms as well.
As for canon, that's a tricky issue. It can be argued that all printed products are canon. At the same time, some products conflict, and some are often thought of as "kender tales" (Wild Elves, anyone?).
Weis and Hickman are often thought of by fans as having the "higher canon", meaning that whatever they say is truth. This is largely due to the fact that they were the ones behind Chronicles.
People will argue up and down what is true canon, whether it be W&H, any printed product, whether some things are canon and some are not, etc. etc.
My personal feeling is that we all define our own canon. We know which novels and games we like and which ones we don't. We also have our own canons in our own games.
Just remember, both with canon and with setting, that the key thing is to have fun.
Originally posted by vejono
What is this word canon?
It means the accepted belief structure. In terms of Dragonlance, it refers to the standard accepted storyline. Many believe that W&H are the only sources of the Dragonlance canon, which is proposterous to say the least.
The levels of canon are as follows, from highest to lowest:
- 3rd Edition gaming books such as the Dragonlance Campaign Setting
- 1st Story Level novels such as the Chronicles
- 2nd Story Level novels such as the Fifth Age Trilogy
- 3rd Story Level novels such as the Kingpriest Trilogy
Depends on what you decide is canon in your DL.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
As far as I'm concerned, there are several levels of canon. If a lower level source contraditcs a higher level source, the higher level source is considered canon.
The levels of canon are as follows, from highest to lowest:
- 3rd Edition gaming books such as the Dragonlance Campaign Setting
- 1st Story Level novels such as the Chronicles
- 2nd Story Level novels such as the Fifth Age Trilogy
- 3rd Story Level novels such as the Kingpriest Trilogy
I like this way of thinking! Lets get a rubber stamp out and mark it official!
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
As far as I'm concerned, there are several levels of canon. If a lower level source contraditcs a higher level source, the higher level source is considered canon.
The levels of canon are as follows, from highest to lowest:
- 3rd Edition gaming books such as the Dragonlance Campaign Setting
- 1st Story Level novels such as the Chronicles
- 2nd Story Level novels such as the Fifth Age Trilogy
- 3rd Story Level novels such as the Kingpriest Trilogy
This is pretty much the model I follow too, but one thing is missing from this - DL gaming materials from prior editions (both AD&D 1e/2e and SAGA). Where do those fall into this design?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
This is pretty much the model I follow too, but one thing is missing from this - DL gaming materials from prior editions (both AD&D 1e/2e and SAGA). Where do those fall into this design?
I don't have any of those, so they don't count as canon for me. But if I had some, I think I'd place them between the 1st and 2nd Story levels (for 1e/2e books) and the 2nd and 3rd Story levels (for SAGA).
I love a lot of the Dragonlance books I've read not by W&H, and I consider them cannon. However since Hickman is the creator of the series I consider his word a cannon trump card. I give the original creator the respect to abide by any changes he makes (The fact that I really love Dragonlance Post War of Souls era has nothing to do with it... really).
Does this mean that I can't contradict Hickman in my game? Sure, in my game and I have, again in my game...
However when speaking about Dragonlance in general I defult to the heirarcy of cannon with W&H on top.
Don't you mean canon ?
[/Nitpicky Mode]
As for the actual topic, I go with what works. Most often it's canon material, however you choose to define that. Sometimes I go with unofficial material just because it adds a little spice to the campaign.
They call forgotten realms 'forgotten' because many campaigns (not all!) are cliched and easily 'forgotten.'
You may not realize this but that is actually one of the great things about Forgotten Realms. One of the complaints I've heard from my friends regarding DL is that the world is so small that all the adventures tend to affect the entire world. In FR you can go to Cormyr and claim to be the great vizier from Calimshan and easily convince them of such. They certainly wouldn't spend a month on horseback trying to verify your story.
In Krynn you could travel from one end of the continent to the other on horseback in a few weeks, if that. Some people like every adventure affecting the world but that can get old fast. It's nice to have many areas each with their own unique adventure hooks.
I'm not saying one world is better than another, I'm just trying to explain the appeal of a world where many of your adventures may have only a small effect if any on the world.
It's up to the DM to make Krynn (or any published setting) THEIR world, and play with the storyline so that the PCs will become major figures.
Which is why I'd rather play in Taladas, the continent opposite Ansalon. Not too many epic tales nor heroes to remind the players their PC are minor league hacks. :D
Don't you mean canon ?
[Silly mode]
No he/she means cannon as in gun BOOM! Stick that in your perfect English hat. :D
[/Silly mode]
~~~
*Edit* Stupid april fools coding
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I’m not a big fan of the Realms but I can’t stand by and see someone batch a world who obviously has dedicated designers.
Wow, slow down. If I really wanted to bag something, I would have made it so clear that I could get sued. A world is what you make it, and in my experience many people have failed to distingush, in a role-playing context, forgotten realms from a generic setting such as greyhawk. It is anything but the designers fault. That is what I meant to say, but I am not justifying my own opinions.
Personally I dislike campaign worlds where people who are so powerful, such as adventurers, are not always internationally recognised. The power of fantasy settings in my mind, is the ability to leave this world behind and become somebody truely heroic and important. That is what I like about Dragonlance, heroes are generally well known.
Everyone is the sum total of their experiences, and it is these same experiences that form opinions. I just wanted to share these. I am not sorry if anyone is offended.
Originally posted by Lily_Knight
They call forgotten realms 'forgotten' because many campaigns (not all!) are cliched and easily 'forgotten.' Don't let the same mistake happen because all you did was set a dungeon crawl in the mountains around Sanction.
There is nothing wrong with Faerun being so large that a Paladin in Waterdeep won’t have his name recognize in Narfell. How many Ukrainian heroes can you name from the top of your head?
I don't use most of the novel stories in my game, because most don't fit the feel that W&H put into their storie. Perhaps its writing style, I don't know.
I have made some quite serious changes to DL. Not so big that you wouldn't be able to tell that it is DL, but more into the history. I have psionics (rare though), a Githyanki invasion instead of the Chaos War, the gods didn't leave after said "chaos war" and the Overlords are in fact the original Dragons who were corrupted by Takhisis during the prehistory of Krynn.
You have to make changes to any campaign world in order to make it what you want and chance what you don't like.
The Gods did not leave they simply defeated Chaos. Ariakan did not meet with what I consider a poor death. Nor did Tanis. I have a shadow war between the minions of Takhisis and Jiathuli’s outcast drow with the forces of good (the few that know of the conflict at any rate not knowing which side to aid if any). And the Overlords came about when Sargonnas on a bid for power had one of his Archfiends possess Khellendros in his plane-hopping-days. That is a long story with a very fulfilling twist and ending. And psionic powers only appear in a Krynnspace adventure I ran.
Anyway, I would love to hear any other changes you’ve made to your campaign. Sounds interesting and I’m glad I’m not the only one out there far from canon.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
I have made some quite serious changes to DL. Not so big that you wouldn't be able to tell that it is DL, but more into the history. I have psionics (rare though), a Githyanki invasion instead of the Chaos War, the gods didn't leave after said "chaos war" and the Overlords are in fact the original Dragons who were corrupted by Takhisis during the prehistory of Krynn.
Nice! Very cool setup. Do you find that the githyanki fit the feel of Dragonlance? Also, does it seem to fit having Khellendros being one of the original 5 dragons?
My alternate history is, of course, Darklance. It wasn't meant to be one, but became one the instant Summer Flame came out. The idea is that Takhisis corrupts the dragonlances into darklances, and then the Knights of Takhisis use them when conquering Ansalon. There's a new ice age beginning at this time too.
What I haven't written yet is what happens next. Basically, Takhisis tries to enter the world of Krynn at the end of the War of the Dark Lance, and when she does so, she is dealt a mortal blow. Yet instead of killing her, it divides her into 5 dragons.
Each dragon is an aspect of Takhisis (i.e. green = temptress, blue = Dark Warrior), and they begin to develop individual personalities, none of which likes the other. Meanwhile, there's a subconscious as well that lies subdued for a while, but regains strength. This subconscious seeks to bring all 5 dragons back together again (despite their hate for one another) to form Takhisis.
I know, it's like a bad episode of Voltron or the Transformers. ;)
Mina, then, becomes a cleric of the subconscious, calling it the One God. The story would then integrate into War of Souls somewhat from there.
When Takhisis initially falls, Paladine does as well, and their divine energies permeate the world. Gilean may fall as well, but I haven't decided that yet. The energies released into the world becomes the foundation for mysticism, and so mystics are born.
I haven't decided how to handle sorcerers yet. Perhaps the power of the fallen gods somehow affects that as well.
So anyway, that's my alternate Darklance setting.
1) It makes it truly a shared world, so that fans can participate playing in the world together ala RPGA, and swap adventures and NPC's more easily.
2) It simply makes the world look better. What show would you enjoy if fundamental facts about the a tv series character history, setting, and themes were unintentionally changed from episode to episode due to apathy or mismanagement? I certainly wouldn't.
I myself don't feel constrained by any canon except the DLCS and the AoM, for the simple reason that nobody can casually be expected to keep up with more. I do however add in stuff from other products (often heavily altered) in order to supplement my own imagination and because there are often little nuggets of gold in even the most base products (such as Wild Elves or New Beginnings).
That is why I am so heavily disappointed with the lack of a decent overview of the cultures and current events in Krynn. I was really crushed when the DLCS came out, and have been since disappointed in the year since as the possibility of an atlas becomes more and more a remote possibility. That's why I'm becoming more and more silent on these message boards, because since I don't design many new rules, I don't really have anything to say in a campaign setting that is just a regional backstory and setting detail vaccuum. Well, that and the more I lament about the lack of setting detail, the more I annoy and stir up hatred within people. I'm not built for the sensitive post-baby boomer generations.
It isn't all bad though. I do like designing setting and world detail, so I'm working on a gazateer of my own which should supplement the rules-heavy approach of Sovereign Press with new organizations, NPC's, magical items, and regional descriptions. I've even got a couple interesting ideas for new rules such as a skill and feat based Mysticism and Sorcery, some revised DLCS and AoM classes and races, and a chapter on dragons that focuses on what they are doing rather than what they are (which I'll leave for the MM). Things such as decribing the dragonspawn armies, what a typical dragon fiefdom looks like, how they infiltrate humanity, dragon attitudes towards humanity etc.
Going to take a couple years I wager. As for the argument if you don't like it go to the Forgotten Realms... that is a rather snooty attitude and one that surely won't make you much money. If you don't give the public what they want, then they'll assuredly go somewhere else. Only time will tell if Sovereign Press' gambit of going with a detail light and rules splat book style campaign setting will pay off.
*shrugs* I bought the Star Wars core rulebook myself, and am gearing up for a Knights of the Old Republic era game, post dark victory of Lord Revan and his lover Bastila.
I know for a fact that the both the quality of FR and DL cannot (and should not) be compared in terms of products, but somethimes one has to sink to another's level to fix a problem.
At least...I hope so.
Anyway, I would love to hear any other changes you’ve made to your campaign. Sounds interesting and I’m glad I’m not the only one out there far from canon.
Ok, heres what I have done (with a little repeat of above):
Psionics exist because when the Greystone passed over Krynn, a small piece of it fell away, and became the Crystal Consciousness. Although weaker than its parent crystal, it introduced psionics to Krynn.
Mystics have existed since the War of the Lance, but in small numbers.
I kind of see that when the gods returned to Krynn, some people
would not be able to accept them for deserting them during the Cataclysm and but needing to believe in something.Hence the arise of Mysticism.
The Chaos War hasn't happened. Instead, the crystal that the Irda found is an artifact called the SoulStone, which was a prison for the Githyanki Lichqueen. They opened that and she all but destroyed the Irda race.
So, in the current campaign the Githyanki replace Chaos as the dominent threat.
Following this, the gods will not dissapear.
In the future, I have the Overlords as the original dragons corrupted by Takhisis. When they arise, Krynn will feel a resurgence of primal (draconic) magic allowing the rise of Sorcery. So, instead of losing wizards and gaining sorcerers, Palin will set up the Academy at Solace as a Tower of High Sorcery devoted to Sorcerers.
I have already set in motion that Takhisis and Chemosh have allied in order to gain power. Together they will draw magical energy captured by the undead.
Takhisis will use this in an attempt to fuel an ascension and rise in power over the other gods (Basically a fiddling of the One God storyline).
Nice! Very cool setup. Do you find that the githyanki fit the feel of
Dragonlance? Also, does it seem to fit having Khellendros being one of the original 5 dragons?
Actually the Githyanki working out very well.
Krynn seems to have more than its fair share of wars, so having them attempt an invasion works well, and they have ties to Red Dragons so that works.
Khellendros is not Skie IMC. But only because it made more sense for all the Overlords to be the original dragons.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Psionics exist because when the Greystone passed over Krynn, a small piece of it fell away, and became the Crystal Consciousness. Although weaker than its parent crystal, it introduced psionics to Krynn.
That's a plausible reason for the existence of psionics, SweetMeats, and even ties it into the Graygem in a psionic-themed sort of way. Very cool. If I had any reason to introduce psionics into my Dragonlance campaign, I think that would be a sensible and thematic way of doing it.
Cheers,
Cam
It's an awesome idea for introducing psionics and will definitely give my YuanTi-invasion-thingy the final spin it needed...I'll have a psionic Irda-hermit, that'll be the key-element to saving the world, thanks a lot!!!
I find that if you are going to make changes like that, they should be tied into the nature/theme of the setting, hence using the Greystone as the starting point for psionics.
Crystal Consciousness comes from If Thoughts Could Kill, right?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Ditto from me. I had thought about the influence of Chaos, but a shard of the Greygem/Crystal Consciousness combo is awesome.
Crystal Consciousness comes from If Thoughts Could Kill, right?
Yes, thats right. A very good module for introducing psionic's (which is what I did), and the theme of the module (change vs. stability in the psionic web) fits DL very well.