Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dawnstealer Mar 31, 2004 16:58:53	Where do templars get their powers? More specifically, how do their Sorcerer-kings and queens transfer that power to them? Was it some elemental vortex? Was it an effect of the Dark Lens and Borys changing the Champions into Sorcerer Kings? Something else?
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 31, 2004 17:02:17	Originally posted by Dawnstealer Where do templars get their powers? More specifically, how do their Sorcerer-kings and queens transfer that power to them? Was it some elemental vortex? Was it an effect of the Dark Lens and Borys changing the Champions into Sorcerer Kings? Something else? It was a side-effect of the Dark Lens and Borys changing the Champions into Sorcerer-Kings, that drew the attention of the elemental vortices, fusing them with the Sorcerer-Kings (and effectively killing the vortices - to the point of extinction, I believe). As a result, their ability to grant spells, while a spiffy side-effect, is not duplicateable. Basically, your two listed options are one in the same.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 17:07:30	I'm not sure if the living vortices were driven to extinction by the melding with the SK's, but they've definately disappeared since then (it's expressly stated in Dragon Kings, I think). Maybe they were destroyed as the balance between the elemental planes started to shift? I'd imagine that a being that has tendrils in all the planes would need a nice balance to exist.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 21:35:33	I think that the living vortices thing was a great idea even if they went extinct. But as many things in 1E and 2E Ad&D TSR allowed some NPC to do thing that PC could never do even if they had all the requirments vis a vis no more Dragon Kings with templars. 3E on the other hand has pretty much let pC's do just about everything that NPC can do. I recall one of my players(who was about to become an avangion) reading this and drafting two Psionic Enchantment spell called One called Transfer Elemental Vortex. Where the spell allowed he could transfer the EV of old kalak or Abalach-Re becaus ethey were no longer tied to it. When I informed him that the deaths of the SK's caused the death of the EV he created the other spell called Create Elemental Vortex where it created a EV that allowed the caster to have 100 templars for every level above 20th. I eventually allowed this spell with the condition that he retire the Avangion.
#5 dawnstealer Mar 31, 2004 23:46:11	You bringing up Avangions reminded me: if they are elemental vortexes bonded to the king, would it still effect Keltis? I mean, he renounced magic and had to basically start from scratch to become a preserver and then an Avangion. That's a pretty big about-face. I'd say the whole vortex-thing was a 2e style of keeping a player from rising and having their own templars. Personally, I'd make it a feat with massive requirements that the sorcerer kings, with their long lives both post and pre Cleansing Wars, would certainly have, but a player would have a tough time achieving. Not impossible, but very tough. Officially, though, I'd go with the vortex. Off the book would be the feat.
#6 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 31, 2004 23:52:04	Originally posted by Dawnstealer You bringing up Avangions reminded me: if they are elemental vortexes bonded to the king, would it still effect Keltis? I mean, he renounced magic and had to basically start from scratch to become a preserver and then an Avangion. That's a pretty big about-face. You mean Oronis (I know, it's still the same guy, but it's like calling Nibenay "Galliard" instead, or Hamanu "Manu") - Keltis is his old name, and usually one I reference to describe him as a Dragon & Champion of Rajaat, while I personally reserve Oronis for his Avangion, reformed self. I'd say that even though he basically relearned how to use magic (became a Preserver), he was still tied to the vortex when Borys made him a Sorcerer-King. As such, he does have spellcasting Templars. I personally make them teachers & healers in Kurn, as well as a group of them that are spies infiltrating the other City-States (like Brax was doing, I believe).
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 2:31:09	All the material I have read (most notably Dragon Kings) states that the vortices were drawn to the SKs became Dragons, and are now extinct (perhaps dying in the process?). As such, you could definitely say it was an effect of the Dark Lens. I think the whole thing is contrived, and just a way to say "Players can't do that", but that's another argument entirely.
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 3:21:49	I reeeeallly think it's the better idea to have templar-casting be a function of being a champion of rajaat, like in Rise and Fall. It makes being a champion mean something more, of being able to empower your soldiers. As being a champion requires Rajaat's meddling, it also limits the ability for new templar-empowering folks from appearing. Otherwise, what's a champion? Some dinky prestige class that maybe boosts arcane and psionic power? Throw in templar-empowering abilities and you have a truly epic prestige class, one that makes for a very scary, very badass genocidal be-all end-all Champion of Rajaat. The limit of how many templars you can have based on how many epic levels one has is interesting. If there wasn't a limit on how many templars they could power, then wouldn't every single soldier have the ability to cast all sorts of flame strikes and such? Ok, I won't say anything more, but seriously, the idea of it being a function of being a champion makes an amazing amount of sense and fits in the flavor. Granted Lynn Abbey came up with that, but didn't Troy Denning himself say that she managed to capture the feel and spirit of the setting with her work far more than anyone else did? Living vortices were a neat idea, far better than just "hey, the dark lens did it," or at least more original. I still think, however, that it should definately be a function of being a champion, and the flavor text would be great if one could trace the templarate back to the cleansing wars when the champions empowered their soldiers in order to exterminate their chosen species, and this evolved into the modern templarates. Far more interesting than "hey, so they became as gods after offing the old man, took a city and BAM they had clerics at their disposal." nick
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 01, 2004 7:43:26	Originally posted by Cap'n Nick I reeeeallly think it's the better idea to have templar-casting be a function of being a champion of rajaat, like in Rise and Fall. It makes being a champion mean something more, of being able to empower your soldiers. As being a champion requires Rajaat's meddling, it also limits the ability for new templar-empowering folks from appearing. Pennarin and I tried this - and several people came up with rather convincing arguements to the contrary. This is why I have them set up the way they are on my site now. Otherwise, what's a champion? Some dinky prestige class that maybe boosts arcane and psionic power? Throw in templar-empowering abilities and you have a truly epic prestige class, one that makes for a very scary, very badass genocidal be-all end-all Champion of Rajaat. The limit of how many templars you can have based on how many epic levels one has is interesting. If there wasn't a limit on how many templars they could power, then wouldn't every single soldier have the ability to cast all sorts of flame strikes and such? While it's still up (until I move), check out my Champon of Rajaat Template, and my Sorcerer-Monarch Template. Neither of those are really "Dinky"., and it sure as hell isn't a Prestige Class. Ok, I won't say anything more, but seriously, the idea of it being a function of being a champion makes an amazing amount of sense and fits in the flavor. Granted Lynn Abbey came up with that, but didn't Troy Denning himself say that she managed to capture the feel and spirit of the setting with her work far more than anyone else did? Living vortices were a neat idea, far better than just "hey, the dark lens did it," or at least more original. I still think, however, that it should definately be a function of being a champion, and the flavor text would be great if one could trace the templarate back to the cleansing wars when the champions empowered their soldiers in order to exterminate their chosen species, and this evolved into the modern templarates. Far more interesting than "hey, so they became as gods after offing the old man, took a city and BAM they had clerics at their disposal." nick Well, the thing is, there's plenty of other things that a Champion could have *besides* granting spells for Templars. Likr abilities specifically targeting the races they were supposed to exterminate.
#10 dawnstealer Apr 01, 2004 9:48:22	I reeeeallly think it's the better idea to have templar-casting be a function of being a champion of rajaat, like in Rise and Fall. I lean this way, too, and Abbey had a good point of the templars being the generals of the Champions during the Cleansing Wars, empowered by the Champion they followed. It does make more sense. What if we were to say that they gained the power when Rajaat made them Champions instead of when Borys made them Sorcerer Kings? I realize the books don't back me up, but this might make more sense, officially, than the "real" version. Thoughts?
#11 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 01, 2004 10:17:26	Pennarin & I tried that perspective, however were shot down. Several times. I just decided personally to let the (as Jon puts it) "Dead Kank lie".
#12 dawnstealer Apr 01, 2004 11:25:12	/casts resurrect kank spell. I'm crazy, I tell ya! CRAZY!!! If the vortex were an effect, instead of a creature, one that could be repeated with the right spells, psionics, combination, etc, I'd be more willing to buy into it. Having it be a one-time thing is a bit of a cop-out. I didn't say it would be easy, but it should be possible for someone else, who wasn't an original Champion, to gain templars. Again, officially, we'll have to go with what's canon: only the Champions can have elemental vortexes. So, unofficially, let's debate the issue a little further. Could the whole "elemental vortex was a one-time event"-thing be propaganda?
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 01, 2004 11:52:01	Well, personally, I love the idea that Champions could have Templars in the Cleansing Wars - and I'll agree, it's a great idea from Lynn Abbey. I mean, with that, they could hand-pick their generals, as well as provide necessary healing for wartime, and spellcasting powers in battles (beyond the Champion's own impressive spells) that wouldn't necessarily be construed as competition from the Champions.
#14 Shei-Nad Apr 01, 2004 17:57:44	Hmm… weird title. I would have thought this would discuss the Hamanu – Champion or Champions topic. Anyhow. I have a pretty good idea of how this thing works already, but lets go to the source material: WC p.14 Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to all of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the templars, the humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars. Now the sorcerer-king were like gods. Ok, this tells us: - The SK's power comes from the elemental planes. - The SKs got this ability (to grant spells) at the moment they cast the Dragon Metamorphosis through the Dark Lens. - This ability results from the ''storm of energy'' of the spells, but not necessarily from the spells themselves (i.e., this was not the function of the spell itself.) - Also, the Champions already had followers who might have been called templars during the cleansing wars, and the current templarate comes from those individuals. These were not the divine spellcasters known today however (although conceivably the champions could have had elemental (paraelemental more likely) clerics at their service during the wars. Also: Wizards of Athas p.20 With the aid of a magical artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys tied the sorcerer-kings together by connecting them to all the elemental planes. They became magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be accessed. This allowed the sorcerer-kings to imbue their templars with priestly spells, though they couldn’t use priestly magic themselves. - Same info. Next: Timeline Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells. - Mentions the connection of the sorcerer kings with living vortices. Presumably, these vortices channel elemental energy. Best description: Dragon Kings p.10-11 Each had mysteriously become the focus of unlimited elemental magic. Though they couldn’t tap this power themselves, the sorcerer-kings could impart that power to their followers, the templars. The end result was clear, but why this transference of power became possible remains a mystery, even to the sorcerer- kings. In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosing spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature: a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all the elemental planes and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The sorcerer-kings are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funnelled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don’t even realize exists. With the passage of centuries, the living vortices have become extinct. Therefore, no future dragons will gain the ability to transfer elemental magic to templars. The original sorcerer-kings will take that privilege with them to their graves. - Sorcerer-kings are/may not be aware of the actual source of their power (the living vortices). This would also suggest they did not know that they would gain the ability to grant spells through their use of the Dark Lens at the time of the Metamorphosis. Also, this does lend some support to the rumor which states that Abalach-Re does not understand how she got to channel divine power. - Living vortices are rare, not unique. However, living vortices are now extinct. The process is therefore impossible to duplicate. (I would note however that they may be extinct now, but in the past they might have allowed other powerful spellcasters/psions to attach themselves to them, meaning their could possibly be other creatures with this ability...) Furthermore: Earth, Air, Fire and Water p.: The kings have no pacts with the elementals, the source of their power is strange and singular. A living vortex of energy once planted its tendrils on the inner planes and was attracted to the strange metamorphosing creatures that the sorcerer-kings had become. The vortex was a living conduit of raw energy that the kings could direct, but could not control. Much to their frustration and dismay, the sorcerer-kings cannot use the vast amounts of power they receivefrom the inner planes, they can only redirect it to lesser beings: their templars. The vortexes have now become extinct, but the kings have managed to keep the conduit alive much like liquid that, when siphoned through a hose, flows by means of the vacuum created. Once the reaction had begun it could only be stopped by the conscious effort of the one who had opened it. And that time is past and will never come again. - The death of the vortices had no effect on the channelling of energy, because of the siphon effect. Also, the process could have been stopped by the ''effort of the one who had opened it''. This could mean Borys, or the Vortex itself, and both are no more. However, I fail to see how Borys could stop the energy flow in other sorcerer-kings. I would hypothesize the SKs themselves could stop the flow of energy, simply be stopped to channel it to templars completely, which woudl stop the syphoning. Other notes: - I find it unclear wether it is one vortex who connected all SKs to the elemental energies, or many vortices that each attached to their own SKs. I think the latter is probably the correct answer. - Oronis of Kurn certainly has still his ability to channel divine spells, unless he volontarily gave this ability up in the manner I stated earlier, though I find that unlikely. The fact that he had to re-learn magic has no effect on this ability. Personal preferences: - Conceivably, the heads of Sacha and Wyan could have been connected to the vortices at the moment of the casting, if they were in proximity to the casting of the spell. This could mean that a non Dragon King Kalak could have used the heads as conduits to serve him. - Though the champions did not know this would be a side effect of their metamorphosis, I think Rajaat could very well have known that this would happen if enough energy was channel through the dark lens. As such, I believe this very event was what was intended when Rajaat said: WC p.13 “Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!” Indeed, the ability to grant spells seems much more godly than simply becoming a dragon, a powerful, yet mundane being. Anyways. Sorry for the lenght... again... ;)
#15 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 19:21:20	I would even say that the Vortices could siphon some of the current Sk powers(in 3E lingo thier earned XP). Thats why the millenia old SK's are only 21st through 23rd level because the vortices drain much of their power(again XP) similiar to a magic item being created. just an idea.
#16 dawnstealer Apr 01, 2004 20:15:20	Good post, Shei. I actually knew the books were against me on this one, I was just testing the temp for how people felt about the "real" version. I notice you didn't necessarily take a side in the debate: would you rather it be a one time thing, or could an up and coming dragon or avangion possibly duplicate the effect (or steal a dead Champion's conduit)?
#17 beyowulf Apr 01, 2004 22:19:18	Originally posted by Dawnstealer I notice you didn't necessarily take a side in the debate: would you rather it be a one time thing, or could an up and coming dragon or avangion possibly duplicate the effect (or steal a dead Champion's conduit)? I personally think its contrived. I can't see why a PC couldn't duplicate the effect, give suitablely epic magic. They should be made to work for it of course.
#18 Shei-Nad Apr 01, 2004 22:21:28	Originally posted by Dawnstealer would you rather it be a one time thing, or could an up and coming dragon or avangion possibly duplicate the effect (or steal a dead Champion's conduit)? Personally, I think it would be more interesting to have the possibility of duplicating the effect. However, allowing the process to be duplicated doesn't mean its easy... First of all, we would have to take a little liberty and interpret the canon text as all vortices that attached to the champions are extinct, but not all vortices. In fact, I would think such unfathomable and extraordinary beings would be near immortal, and wouldn't simply go extinct without some catastrophy. However, when they linked with the champions, the defiling powers of the SKs, and the massive drain of energy through the vortices might have killed those who were attached. That said, I don't see why all these beings would have to have died. If not, then it should be possible to attract other vortices given the right cirumstances. Now, before someone thinks its an easy thing, I would point out that being a Dragon or an Avangion and Granting Spells through an elemental vortice have little to do with each other, nor is the latter part of the former spell. This means that even a powerful epic psion/wizard would not be able to summon those creatures as he wishes just because he is going through metamorphosis. In fact, it is the casting of so many dragon metamorphosis spell in the same instant, and through the same vehicule, that caught the attention of those beings. We could even think that the simultaneous casting of other psionic enchantements unrelated to dragon metamorphosis could have had the same effect. So, those who wish to summon an elemental vortice would have to channel enough magical and psionical energy to attract the creatures, and remember than those who managed to do it were 13 epic psion/wizards, so this feat would be almost impossible to duplicate alone. Note that I wouldn't rule out an epic character develops a psionic enchantement specifically designed to channel energy simply for the summoning, which would be easier since the spell's energy would be entirely focused on the vortex, and not on the caster's metamorphosis. But in any case, there is a key that seems to be necessary. The champions channelled their energy through the Dark Lens. I don't suggest that this artefact would be absolutely necessary, but one who holds similar energy channelling poiwer and interplanar connection would probably be required to even reach the vortex. Indeed, we know that the Dark Lens is first meant as an energy channelling and amplifying device. Also, it seems likely this device is linked to many energy planes, as it reacts it weird ways in the Grey (Obsidian Oracle), and was used to the Hollow. So, those who want to attract the being would have to craft a vehicle for their power that would amplify it and redirect it to reach the vortices. Not an easy feat, nor an inexpensive one. And finally, don't forget that even the sorcerer-kings themselves are described as unaware of the true origins of their power, so it seems unlikely someone would have acces to the knowledge required to design such a spell (as he wouldn't know such beings exist anyways). Now, could it happen accidentally? Perhaps. Given a circumstance where enough energy could be channelled in the right ways, characters involved in the event might be connected in a similar fashion. Maybe even a non-spellcaster/non-manifester present at the event might gain this benefit. However, I would think that the metamorphosis itself had something to do with the linking of the vortices with the champions. Perhaps the metamorphosing magic allowed the create to merge in some ways, metamorphing along with the champions. Other, non-advanced beings, who are not undergoing the metamorphosis at the time of the event might only be affected temporarily, which could be a balancing factor... Anyways. Just a few ideas. But to be brief, I think the event could be reproduced, provided we interpret the extinction of the vortices as the death of those linked to the champions, not all of their species.
#19 zombiegleemax Apr 02, 2004 0:43:02	I'll throw my hat into the ring as well: I think channelling elemental power should remain outside the realm of PC's. I have no problem with NPC's having powers that the PC's don't, and can never, have. It makes them special, ties them to the history of the world, ups their power even beyond their character level (making them more credible, and dangerous, foes), and gives them the mythic feel that beings of their age should possess. Contrived or not (and my opinion is not), I'd say let the vortex death stand. Now, just because I find such intellectual exercises interesting, I'll think about how a PC could gain a vortex. Given in my version of the problem: 1) No living vortices exist now. 2) All living SK's are connected to a vortex. 3) We know from the thing over Guistnal (sp?) that the vortices can exist for some time after the death of an SK. However: the Guistnal being is powered by a city's worth of souls, all of whom died in extreme emotion. This would probably lend greater staying-power to the vortext than it would normally have. Conclusion 1: if a character wanted to gain a vortex, they would have to steal one from a current SK. Conclusion 2: a SK's vortex dissipates fairly soon (I'd say within days, but I'm making that up) after the death of that SK. OK, if I was a DM, here's what I'd make the PC do: 1) Must be a fully formed avangion or dragon (level 30, by the old rules) 2) Must research a completely new psionic enchantment: Meld With Elemental Vortex. As nothing like this has ever been tried, there are no notes to help the research. Also, since advanced beings are immortal, I'd set the research time at 50-100 years. Casting time is two days. 3) Once the spell has been researched and cast (and you better believe that the componets will be impossible to find), the PC must kill a SK. 4) Casting of the psionic enchantment must begin within 5 rounds of the SK's death. Any later and the spell fails automatically. Any disruption during the two day casting ruins the spell automatically. 5) If everything above is completed successfully, the vortex has been melded to the character and they can now grant spells like a SK. That's what I'd give, on the off chance I felt like giving the PC a chance.
#20 beyowulf Apr 02, 2004 1:20:46	Would you even need a Living Vortex? I'd think you'd merely need a spell that provides a conduit, even a temporary one to the elemental planes. A living vortex could provide that effect, but you probably duplicate it by some other means. One you have a channel of elemental energy flowing you don't even need to sustain the effect, as evidenced by the SK. The Living Vortex that provide the effect is dead, but the energy still flows. Either stealing a SK conduit, attacting a new Living Vortex, or possibly re-creating one through epic spell-casting would seem to be going about the whole thing the hard way. As for templars, I really don't see what the big deal is. You, as DM, either retire the character, or start playing some hybrid version of Birthright and DarkSun,(without the divine bloodlines, of course.) The PCs at this point, shouldn't be doing much in the way of adventuring. There should be taking steps into the political arenas. Raising armies, founding cities, etc.
#21 zombiegleemax Apr 03, 2004 12:16:58	Beyowulf, that's exactly what I was going to say. I see no reason why an enterprising PC couldn't be able to create a way to mimic a vortex, assuming he or she can figure out the concept of the vortex and then goes through the process of manifesting the concept. Its unlikely, but definately should be possible.
#22 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2004 17:09:01	I just had an idea while yakking up the crackpot theories thread. Ok, I'm all for the ability to grant templar spells being an exclusive ability granted by the champion of rajaat template (I agree template is better than prestige class, in hindsight). Regardless of what ultimately becomes accepted as canonical fact, I think Lynn Abbey hit that nail on the head. Anyway. What I thought of was some support for this line of thought. I guess it doesn't really matter if it's a function of a living vortex, connection to the dark lens/pristine tower, or what, so long as it's neccessarily a function of being a champion and result of Rajaat's meddling. So. Dregoth! We know that Dregoth was at war with the giants before Rajaat started his crusade, and that Dregoth was/is the greatest of the champions (with the possible exceptions of fully-transformed Borys and mister uniquey Hamanu, but neither of them ever managed to control the savage urges/insanity like Dregoth did). I'm a firm believer that it makes a lot of sense for Dregoth to have invented the Dragon metamorphosis process, and was already a dragon well on his way when the wars started and he became a champion. Now, assuming that all is the case, that Dregoth was already a Dragon and likely more powerful than any other Champion-to-be, why would he accept Rajaat's offer to become a champion? What would he have to offer? It wouldn't make sense to say that they just wanted him as one of their club so they look better, nor would it make sense to go to war with Dregoth the interloper and threaten him with this, since he was already trying to exterminate giants and was likely incredibly powerful and it wouldn't have been the best idea to try and stop him or something. So Rajaat obviously must have had something to offer him. The only thing I can think of is the Champion of Rajaat template. While it likely has other things going for it, like a perfect body or whatever, it wold make sense to have the templar spell-granting ability be a function of it, thus making it a desirable thing to Dregoth. He agrees to take on the mantle of champion, Rajaat's crusade looks bigger and scarier with Dregoth, Rajaat gets the dragon spell and an incredibly pwoerful new champion already pounding away at the giants, and Dregoth gets an ability that not only empowers his followers but brings him closer to the state of a god. After that, he keeps on with his giant crusade, having little to do with anyone else until the revolt is planned, wherein he joins up to get rid of Rajaat, who gave him what he wanted and no longer has anything to offer. Yeah. nik
#23 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 08, 2004 17:29:52	Originally posted by Cap'n Nick So. Dregoth! We know that Dregoth was at war with the giants before Rajaat started his crusade, and that Dregoth was/is the greatest of the champions (with the possible exceptions of fully-transformed Borys and mister uniquey Hamanu, but neither of them ever managed to control the savage urges/insanity like Dregoth did). I'm a firm believer that it makes a lot of sense for Dregoth to have invented the Dragon metamorphosis process, and was already a dragon well on his way when the wars started and he became a champion. I do like this train of thought. Dregoth already started it, taught it to Borys who then administered it to the other Sorcerer-Monarchs except for Hamanu. Rajaat stole the idea and modified it to suit his purposes with Hamanu. Now, assuming that all is the case, that Dregoth was already a Dragon and likely more powerful than any other Champion-to-be, why would he accept Rajaat's offer to become a champion? What would he have to offer? It wouldn't make sense to say that they just wanted him as one of their club so they look better, nor would it make sense to go to war with Dregoth the interloper and threaten him with this, since he was already trying to exterminate giants and was likely incredibly powerful and it wouldn't have been the best idea to try and stop him or something. So Rajaat obviously must have had something to offer him. The only thing I can think of is the Champion of Rajaat template. While it likely has other things going for it, like a perfect body or whatever, it wold make sense to have the templar spell-granting ability be a function of it, thus making it a desirable thing to Dregoth. He agrees to take on the mantle of champion, Rajaat's crusade looks bigger and scarier with Dregoth, Rajaat gets the dragon spell and an incredibly pwoerful new champion already pounding away at the giants, and Dregoth gets an ability that not only empowers his followers but brings him closer to the state of a god. After that, he keeps on with his giant crusade, having little to do with anyone else until the revolt is planned, wherein he joins up to get rid of Rajaat, who gave him what he wanted and no longer has anything to offer. Well, Dregoth might not have had a choice. Rajaat, seeing that Dregoth already was at war with the Giants, may have attempted to tempt the already powerful defiler/psion with more power - that of a Champion, which could make it easier to annihilate the Giants....or else. Rjaat could have told him "join me, or die" - and Dregoth joined up with Rajaat's cause (but at the same time, might have done research on a contingency spell in case he died, to come back as undead). I had added in a list of "Genocidal" powers to the Champion of Rajaat template on my site, which Dregoth might have found useful, along with a few other abilities - and they are usually rather subtle/hard to distinguish to those who aren't aware of their existence. Later, Borys still uses the Dark Lens on Dregoth (even though he was already a Dragon), which gives Dregoth the ability to grant spells to Templars (along with other little things I added to my Sorcerer-Monarch template). I'd agree, Dregoth probably was motivated to dispatch Rajaat purely because of a loathing hatred he's had for the Warbringer. He showed Borys how to become a Dragon, which may have been a means to forming an alliance with the Dwarf Butcher. I'd say that Dregoth is also very wary of Hamanu, and does not trust the Last Champion - after he came back to his undead state, he might very well totally hate Hamanu, who was the instrument of his death.
#24 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2004 18:56:09	See, something I tried getting at in my ramblings but know I kinda failed was an argument against Dregoth signing up simply because he was told to or die. It wouldn't make much sense for Rajaat or the others to threaten him, when he'd end up trying to kill the giants on his own anyway and it'd be a waste to war with someone so powerful who was also trying to reach the same objective as you, but not exclusive of you. They could have very likely just let him kill the giants in his own little crusade rather than waste the resources to war with him, kill him, and then set up someone else to do the job he was doing just fine. So assuming we grant that he was already a dragon and indeed pioneered the transformation, I could see him trading the knowledge of that spell to Rajaat in exchange for the champion template, provided what he was getting in return was worth it. Namely the prestige of being a champion and whatever support structure that went along with that and the ability to grant teplar spells, either through a vortex or dark lens connection or whatever. Because if you just need to be powerful enough to get the attention of a vortex, or if you don't need rajaat to get the ability, I could easily see someone of Dregoth's power managing to secure that ability all on his own without anyone else. As for helping Borys and Borys then dispensing the transformation spell . . . I just don't like that. Just because . . . I dunno. Here's my hypothetical situation: Rajaat prepares his champions-to-be through his skills, simply looking for those who've mastered the Way and his new Magic so his lackeys will be incredibly powerful. At that point he's preparing the champion template to apply to his new champions, which remakes their body through life-spaing granting them perfect physiologies, as well as granted their genocide powers that target their specific races and whatever else you want to reasonably add to the template. When it comes time to make the final decisions for his first crop of Champions (with Myron being a given, as would Irikos have been had he not been killed fighting the preservers), he hears about this Dregoth fellow who has already begun an independent crusade against the giants for his own reasons. Rajaat goes to sniff out the situation and possibly recruit dregoth as a champion. He finds that Dregoth has deveoped a transformation that allows defilers/psions to leech life energy from aimals as well as plants, increasing the power of magic. Rajaat approaches him, proposes a trade. Dregoth finds the benefits of donning the champion mantle worthwhile, both for the potential support structure of these new allies, as well as the personal power inherent in allowing Rajaat to bestow the champion template. In exchange for the template and other benefits he shares his new spell and transformation with Rajaat. Rajaat doesn't know the extent of Dregoth's power and isn't willing to risk delays in his campaign a war with Dregoth would necessitate and therefore takes the diplomatic route instead of the submit or die one, offering something on par with Dregoth's spell and the benefit of having such a nifty champion. Rajaat canonizes (hah ha hah, yay irony!) his first crop of champions, granting them the Champion template. He researches (among other things such as using the inner planes for power and whatever resulting in hte Dead Lands) Dregoth's spell, looking for ways to improve it and mulls teaching it to the other Champions to increase their effectiveness, ultimately falling on his plan for a Final Champion (found in Hamanu). As part of their agreement, Dregoth says nothing about his new state and the Dragon process to the others. When Rajaat hints that the champions can "become as gods" or whatever, he is referring to the new Dragon spell and the possibility he might share it with the rest of them at a later date (once he better understands what it was Dregoth did and the repercussions). The Wars continue, Rajaat studies, and Dregoth makes preparations in case Rajaat (or anyone else) decides he's too dangerous in his new dragon state and tries to kill him after discovering what he's become (nobody ever does until the rebellion). The kaisharga preparations are made in case someone tries to off him. This is (obviously) a secret to everyone except his friend Mon Adderath (who is told how to revive him should it become neccessary). At the same time he does what he can to study life-shaping from Rajaat, as much as he can glean without raising the War-Bringer's suspicians. Eventually Rajaat creates Hamanu, the Last Champion (really nice title, I like that one!). Hamanu goes through the champion process, gaining the template. Rajaat goes one step further, casting his perfected Dragon Metamorphosis spell on Hamanu. This could be a template, but the end result is that he will continue to transform, regardless what he does to try and prevent it, until ultimately he becomes the Last Dragon and exterminates humanity. Of note is that Rajaat must have had some way to stop Hamanu once he had killed humanity. I'll try to get more on that later. When the time approaches, Rajaat shows Hamanu how to cast his dragon magic (up until now Hamanu had been transforming into a dragon but had never cast dragon nmagic). Hamanu is spooked, flees, runs to Borys, shows Borys he can kill him with ease but that Rajaat is the real enemy, and the rebellion starts gaining momentum. Rajaat sits back, confidant that Hamanu can't fight the urges and will ultimately do what is expected of him (but is wrong). While Hamanu hides, Borys runs around telling everyone, but leaving out the details of what has happened to Hamanu (or rather, been revealed about his nature). When it comes time to tell Dregoth, Dregoth connects a few dots the others couldn't due to what he knows and they don't. Dregoth agrees that Rajaat must be killed (if for no other reason than seeing him as his only potential rival). Rebellion happens. Just for the record, I like the idea of Pennarin, if only to show that at least one Champion bit the dust when they took Rajaat on the first time. Rajaat is more or less taken by surprise, not expecting this to come from Hamanu's actions or even suspecting Hamanu's part (the only ones knowing his part likely being Sielba who was hosting/hiding him, Borys who orchestrated the rebellion, and Dregoth who's scary and probably pumped Borys for more information than the others could get out of him). When the dust clears and all is said and done, they realize that for as long as they are all alive, Rajaat will never truly be killable (a function of the Champion template?), so they decide to imprison him in the dimension Gallard was researching (for whatever selfish purpose he was looking into it, it was now found to be the perfect prison). There has to be a reason Dregoth would share the spell, his spell. Maybe when Borys came to him he made the connection with the dragon magic and told Borys about it or something, or it cmae out some other way what Dregoth had been doing. Anyway, for whatever the reason he shares the spell and Borys gets them all to agree to cast the spell on him through the Dark Lens, magnifying it and slingshotting him to mutated 10th-stage. As part of the bargain in getting rid of Rajaat and to ensure their power Dregoth or Borys (whoever) casts the spell on them all. When Borys goes crazy they panic, thinking Dregoth's gonna go insane too, and conspire to kill him. Maybe the spell Dregoth used was a better version or he was constantly refining it and this allowed him to skip the animal rages, or he simply had much greater willpower than any of the others. It's entirely possible that Dregoth came up with the spell and was testing it on himself. Rajaat got a copy and ultimately developed Hamanu. What the rest of the champions got was a form of the original spell, while Dregoth had been casting revised forms of the spell each stage, and just knew a lot more about the process since he made it in the first place. Now, about the template and Hamanu. Lynn Abbey had a good explanation for why they couldn't just kill Rajaat, that they were connected to him and unless they all died he would never truly die, thus neccessitating the imprisonment in the Hollow. An effect of the champion template should be a tie to Rajaat that prevents his death should a champion still live. This wouldn't work in reverse obviously, as champions can drop left and right wihtout Rajaat caring. In fact the death of a champion might send some power back to Rajaat. Hmm . . . As for Hamanu, Rajaat should have had some way to stop him once he killed humanity and the other champions. Some sort of failsafe. It would be stupid if he didn't. On the other hand, fully transformed Hamanu succeeded in ultimately destroying Rajaat, though Rajaat was still partially trapped in the hollow and Hamanu was pretty much mindless at the time. So Rajaat should have had some way to control or stop him, but there had to have been a flaw, one that Hamanu ultimately managed to use to circumvent and destroy the War-Bringer. One thing I just thought of was that once Hamanu was unleashed, Rajaat would simply hide from him or something, let Hamanu go and kill the humans and the other Champions. Every champion that died would send more power back to Rajaat, making him stronger. Maybe when Rajaat was freed he had such a reserve that had built up from all the Champions that had died since his imprisonment. Then maybe, once all that was left was Hamanu himself Rajaat would use that pent up energy to do something to Hamanu, destroying him. Maybe the Hollow was Rajaat's toy originally and Gallard just happened to stumble on it while researching planar and time travel in an attempt to do whateve it was he's trying, and Rajaat intended to trap Final Hamanu in the Hollow once he did his expected job. Maybe there was some intention to change Hamanu one last step, maybe turning on a genetic marker or something that started making his Dragon magic consume him and destroy him. Problem with that though, is once Hamanu discovered his ability to use dragon magic, he never defiled again, instead fueling his spells with his own life-energy through dragon magic, life-energy that was for some reason inexhaustible (another side-effect of his unique dragon state? it would seem that as Rajaat's final champion and considering his expected job Hamanu must be the most dangerous of them. If he was expected to kill all the rest, Dregoth included, he must be exceedingly difficult to even slow down, let alone stop). One final note on Hamanu and Dregoth. When the rebellion began and Borys was spreading the word, maybe Dregoth made the final connection, realizing that Rajaat had made Hamanu a dragon. This is how the other champions learned of the dragon metamorphoisis and demanded it in exchange for their help in the revolt. Dregoth's input was also why they simply didn't decide to team up and take down Hamanu (either that or they were just scared of what Hamanu could do to them based on what Borys said), discovering that Hamanu's state wasn't unique since Dregoth was also a dragon and far more powerful (or so they believed), and their greed made them want to be dragons too. The final note is that when Dregoth talked to Borys, he made the connection to dragon magic but believed Rajaat had just cast his (Dregoth's) dragon spell on Hamanu, not a modified/perfected version of it. Nobody realized just what Hamanu was/is, believing him to be just like the rest of them. Hamanu must have eventually realized just what was going on (he linked his transformation to his templar-empowering abilities and spells and troll-scorching during the wars, but didn't fully realizing what was happening and what the transformation meant until the time of the rebelion), and while he couldn't halt his transformation he could slow it down. He kept the knowledge of his special transformation to himself, except maybe sharing with Borys; Borys wouldn't really care, knowing Hamanu had no intention of ever wanting to complete the transformation and becides Borys figured as a fully transformed Dragonhe would have little to fear from Hamanu. As for the rest, Hamanu would keep his unique state of transformation to himself in case they decided he was a real threat and teamed up to kill him like they did with Dregoth (while it's a toss-up as to who would win maybe, I think Hamanu would likely win, being forced to complete his transformation in defending himself, but then he'd become the monster; so really Hamanu isn't afraid of the other champions, he's afraid of himself, and that's why he always kept his unique state a secret). As for the others, when Borys went koo-koo they panicked about their new states, being very wary of continuing their transformations. Let's say that Gallard was the most adept of them, transforming faster, and it was he who realized that the onset of the insanity is about the 5th stage or so. So the champions generally didn't continue their transformations much, for fear of losing it like Borys. Folks like Kalid-Ma thought they could skip the insanity stages (or Abalache-Re in Forest Maker), but isntead skipped right into the MIDDLE of the rage stage. These spectacular little failures served to discourage the other champions from experimenting too much, maybe with each trying to find a way around that little problem (such as Nibenay's plan to use Siemhouk to calm the rages once he starts). Anyway, that's all I got for right now. Hope someone finds it useful somehow. cap'n nick
#25 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 08, 2004 19:28:00	Mostly works for me. My big differences is that I tend to rely on my own Dragon write-ups for stages and how the Animalistic Rage works.
#26 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2004 19:53:15	From what I've seen I like your write-ups, and I don't really see any inconsistency. You have 4 main stages of the dragon process, with a 10-level prestige class for each stage, right? Well the rages still kick in about half-way through the process, right? Or something like that? I admit I'm largely uninformed at the moment, but I see no reason why what you developed couldn't jive with everything I said. All that was pretty much just flavor text on my part with some suggestions for a couple mechanic tings like the champion template making the recipient bound to Rajaat to prevent his death, and having the templar-casting being rajaat's doing and not Borys. Off-hand, how would you present Dregoth using your material? Are your prestige classes 10- or 5-level? I would think 5 might be better since a fully transformed who took the slow and steady process like dregoth would only have to devote 20 levels instead of 40. I guess I should just gohave another looka t your work, huh? ;) Also, has there been a decision regarding the prereqs for dragon? I liked how the Dungeon mag had a SK being considered a 22 lvl psion and 22 lvl wizard. Makes the dragons super scary strong and stuff. A fully transformed dragon being something like a 60+ lvl character is nice and scary and in line with their power i think. nik
#27 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 08, 2004 20:57:37	Originally posted by Cap'n Nick From what I've seen I like your write-ups, and I don't really see any inconsistency. You have 4 main stages of the dragon process, with a 10-level prestige class for each stage, right? Well the rages still kick in about half-way through the process, right? Or something like that? I admit I'm largely uninformed at the moment, but I see no reason why what you developed couldn't jive with everything I said. All that was pretty much just flavor text on my part with some suggestions for a couple mechanic tings like the champion template making the recipient bound to Rajaat to prevent his death, and having the templar-casting being rajaat's doing and not Borys. Well, it's the third stage that it happens. And the 4th stage doesn't have a PrC. But yea. [Off-hand, how would you present Dregoth using your material? Are your prestige classes 10- or 5-level? I would think 5 might be better since a fully transformed who took the slow and steady process like dregoth would only have to devote 20 levels instead of 40. I guess I should just gohave another looka t your work, huh? ;) They are 10-level. He'd probably be along the lines of a 20 Defiler/15 Psion/Dragon (stage 1) 10/Dragon (Stage 2) 10/Dragon (Stage 3) 10 Kashiarga. He might be a 20 Psion... I dunno. If he invented the process, he might have needed to go above & beyond the normal prereqs for my Dragons in order to figure it out. Also, has there been a decision regarding the prereqs for dragon? I liked how the Dungeon mag had a SK being considered a 22 lvl psion and 22 lvl wizard. Makes the dragons super scary strong and stuff. A fully transformed dragon being something like a 60+ lvl character is nice and scary and in line with their power i think. nik I have prereqs on my write-ups. Basically, they can start sooner, but the progression takes longer. My prereqs are not level-based, but rather based off of spellcasting ability and some skills. Also, it is based off of the fact the individual is alive.