Thri-Kreen Vs. Tohr-Kreen - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Thri-Kreen Vs. Tohr-Kreen

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Apr 01, 2004 12:20:10 If I understand it correctly the only difference between these two are social and cultural. The Tohr are settled but the Thri are wandering.

So the ancient Thri-Kreen empire who the Great One supposedly lead, wouldn't that then be a Tohr-kreen empire, cause they are settled there.

I was thinking if it was just a aspect of the Jeral empire with To'ksa as working class, or maybe the ancient Jo'ksa empire.

When that empire didn't work out the Kreen there begin traveling the Tablelands and became Thri.

I'm kinda new here so if this topic has been answered in a thread I didn't locate with search, forgive me.
#2
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Apr 01, 2004 12:56:03 Actually, IIRC, the ancient "Thri-Kreen Nation" was composed of Thri-Kreen in the Tablelands who freed themselves from the Tohr-Kreen or something like that. But overall, it's differences that are probably similar to the cultural differences between US citizens in, let's say, California vs. ones in..... Rhode Island.
#3
zombiegleemax
Apr 01, 2004 13:25:30 Tohr-Kreen are larger than Thri-Kreen. They also have a highly organized civilization far to the west of the Tyr Region.

Unbeknownest to most people in the Tyr Region, there are actually many different varieties of Tohr-Kreen. The ones usually encountered are not indicative of the many varieties found in the secret empire. The Tohr-Kreen use various biochemical techniques to shape specialized sub-types to fill certain roles in their society.
#4
dawnstealer
Apr 01, 2004 13:30:00 Okay, that's it: Me shottin' meself.

..and whoever implemented the "orc-talk" code. Bastards.
#5
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Apr 01, 2004 13:39:28
Originally posted by Psionycx
Tohr-Kreen are larger than Thri-Kreen. They also have a highly organized civilization far to the west of the Tyr Region.

Unbeknownest to most people in the Tyr Region, there are actually many different varieties of Tohr-Kreen. The ones usually encountered are not indicative of the many varieties found in the secret empire. The Tohr-Kreen use various biochemical techniques to shape specialized sub-types to fill certain roles in their society.

Unbeknownst to many people? You mean you feel privaleged to have Thri-Kreen of Athas?

The Tohr-Kreen do have members of the same subspecies as those found in the Tyr Region (I forget what they are called). They are the same size as well. Of the other 4 subspecies, there is, IIRC, only 1 or 2 that are bigger or equal size to those in the Tyr Region. The Zik-trin (which were called Tohr-Kreen originally, but then renamed in TKoA) are bigger and more aggressive. Plus, there are the Zik-Chil, or "priests of change" which many of us here tend to believe are the decendents of the outcast Rhulisti Nature-Benders from the Blue Age, and primarily responsible for the development of sentience in the Kreen races as well as the formation of the Tohr-Kreen Empire.

In TKoA, it makes mention that there was a Thri-Kreen (not Tohr-Kreen) nation that the Great One ruled over, and doesn't exist any more. This is what is talked about in this thread, which Dawnstealer had started, and still was on the front page of this very forum. The efforts of these Inconsistancies threads is to discuss such things, so as to come to some sort of a consensus as to how everything works out. Splitting a single topic under discussion between two threads just adds to a level of confusion, IMHO.
#6
zombiegleemax
Apr 02, 2004 12:12:29
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm

In TKoA, it makes mention that there was a Thri-Kreen (not Tohr-Kreen) nation that the Great One ruled over, and doesn't exist any more. This is what is talked about in this thread, which Dawnstealer had started, and still was on the front page of this very forum. The efforts of these Inconsistancies threads is to discuss such things, so as to come to some sort of a consensus as to how everything works out. Splitting a single topic under discussion between two threads just adds to a level of confusion, IMHO. [/b]

Well that thread is about the Great One but this one is about the difference between Thri-Kreen and Tohr-Kreen.

Yeah and TKoA mentions that it was a thri-kreen nation, but thri means wandering, as in thri-kreen are wandering people whilst the tohr-kreen are settled. So if there was this great nation wouldn't they be considered settled? I mean before this empire ended maybe there where no Thri-Kreen and the Tohr-Kreen of that nation (both Jerol and To'ksa) started wandering around the tablelands and as such became Thri-kreen.
#7
psiseveredhead
Apr 02, 2004 13:00:52 There are six subspecies of Kreen.

In order of social rank, top to bottom:

J'ez
J'hol
Jeral*
T'keech
To'ksa*
Tondi

All six subspecies are found in the Kreen Empire. The empire consists of many nations. The ones to the west have members of all races, but the eastern "frontier" nations (except Thaythilor) are single-race. Only the J'ez, J'hol and Jeral have their own nations ... the others collapsed.

(J'ez are about 9 feet long, and j'hol are about 7 feet long. Tondi are slightly larger than other kreen, but look very different.)

(It is my personal theory that the T'keech nation collapsed because of Rajaat's experiments at the Jagged Cliffs, but there's little proof of that.)

In addition to these subspecies, the zik-chil (who are closely related to kreen) and the zik-trin exist.

Now, large numbers of Jeral and To'ksa left the Kreen Empire long time ago for reasons unknown (presumably the zik-chil treated them too bad) over many human generations (and, therefore, many kreen generations).

As a result, all thri-kreen are either Jeral or To'ksa.

Thri-kreen means "wanderer" so a thri-kreen nation doesn't really make semantic sense, but there was one. (Maybe they started calling themselves tohr-kreen at the time, but the nation was destroyed, probably by Borys, so they're all thri-kreen again.)

Now let's clear up the last bit of confusion, as I see it.

According to the DSMC1, tohr-kreen are larger than thri-kreen and have special powers. This is not true. The tohr-kreen in DSMC1 were actually zik-trin. Zik-trin are physically and mentally modified by the zik-chil, causing them to lose their personality and have special powers.

Zik-trin are not always larger than kreen either. In Thri-Kreen of Athas, the zik-trin'ta (scouts) were smaller and the zik-trin'ak (warriors) were larger. However, the zik-trin'ak are a new invention, but large zik-trin have been around for a while.

There is virtually no info on zik-trin clerics (called haazik).

It seems the authors of TKoA and previous supplements couldn't agree on zik-trin size. IMO it makes more sense to make the scouts smaller, but perhaps the scouts that infiltrated kreen packs (and helped form the thri-kreen branch of the Kiltektek, such as the psi/cleric Klik'Chaka'da) were actually larger than other kreen.

All of the zik-trin we've seen so far were J'ez, Jeral and To'ksa, but the emperor of the kreen, who is actually a J'hol (somewhat odd) might also be a zik-trin.
#8
zombiegleemax
Apr 02, 2004 23:10:49
Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
Zik-trin are not always larger than kreen either. In Thri-Kreen of Athas, the zik-trin'ta (scouts) were smaller and the zik-trin'ak (warriors) were larger. However, the zik-trin'ak are a new invention, but large zik-trin have been around for a while.

There is virtually no info on zik-trin clerics (called haazik).

It seems the authors of TKoA and previous supplements couldn't agree on zik-trin size. IMO it makes more sense to make the scouts smaller, but perhaps the scouts that infiltrated kreen packs (and helped form the thri-kreen branch of the Kiltektek, such as the psi/cleric Klik'Chaka'da) were actually larger than other kreen.

All of the zik-trin we've seen so far were J'ez, Jeral and To'ksa, but the emperor of the kreen, who is actually a J'hol (somewhat odd) might also be a zik-trin.

Well they gave a reason for the scouts to be larger so they have more change of surviving the scouting mission. I see no reason why they should be smaller. They aren't trying to sneak themself into the Tablelands, they just try to hide their real purpose.

So if a Thri-Kreen would move back to the Tohr-Kreen lands would they call him Thri or Tohr. Guess it's based on how well he fits into the society again.
#9
psiseveredhead
Apr 03, 2004 2:16:41
Originally posted by Chronic Alcoholic
Well they gave a reason for the scouts to be larger so they have more change of surviving the scouting mission. I see no reason why they should be smaller. They aren't trying to sneak themself into the Tablelands, they just try to hide their real purpose.

Thing is, they would be stronger regardless of their size, because of the augmentation they get from the zik-chil.

In any event, their exact size isn't important. Make it fit your campaign.

So if a Thri-Kreen would move back to the Tohr-Kreen lands would they call him Thri or Tohr. Guess it's based on how well he fits into the society again.

Good question.

If they were Jeral, they would be called thri-kreen, for the few days it takes for the zik-chil's J'ez agents to find them and do something terrible to them...

The differences between To'ksa tohr-kreen and To'ksa thri-kreen are almost semantic. Basically, To'ksa speak Tohr-kreen, and live in a different place than the thri-kreen. Since the fall of their nation, the To'ksa Tohr-kreen have been barbaric wanderers. It's amazing they aren't actually called thri-kreen.

PS I should have mentioned T'keech have no problem surviving in a moist environment. For that matter I might as well list their social positions:

J'ez: they fill a role similar to that of the templars, although clerics are rare or non-existent among them. They do things like lead armies, oversee slaves, act as bureaucrafts, and so forth. Most are LN or LE.

J'ez are powerful psychics. One half are psions (or maybe wilders). The rest are wild talents.

J'ez make good writers and love making psionic items. (In 2e, this made more of a difference than in high-item 3e.)

J'ez stand mostly upright and are dull black with spikes. They have big jaws and long antennae. (I no longer have my poster, so I can't tell you how many fingers they have. Note that all kreen subspecies, except Jeral, have long antennae. All kreen subspecies, except Jeral, love the smell (and taste) of frightened or running elves, but only thri-kreen or zik-trin have actually met them.)

J'hol: these vicious warriors are also good craftsmen, especially when it comes to weaponry and architecture. They have weak venom and so spend most of their time making kyorkcha (larger chatkcha). They are pretty small (only 7 ft. tall) and agile (+1 bonus to dodge missiles, can jump backwards) with fiery red chitin and a very upright (humanoid) stance. In combat, they use mainly ranged weapons.

Most are CE. Roughly 20% are psions and another 50% are wild talents.

Jeral: these are similar to their thri-kreen cousins. Most are teachers or ranchers of food insects.

Most Jeral tohr-kreen seem to be NG, but Jeral thri-kreen are usually CN. Jeral clerics are probably more common than among any other subspecies.

T'keech: these are labor-slaves, striped green in color. Most live in small clutches in the cities, but some live independently amongst the other kreen nations.

Like J'ez, they have big mouths. Most are NG or NE, with N being rare.

To'ksa: same as thri-kreen in every way that counts. Most are CN.

J'ez often round them up to be cannon-fodder... I mean soldiers. Yeah, that's it. Probably the most victimized subspecies by the zik-trin. No wonder they ran away.

Tondi: large and pink-violet, they are all female and reproduce by parthenogensis. They also live a really long time for kreen. They resemble rock crystal and oni flowers, which they often live among. (Personally I think this is goofy, but anyway...)

Unlike most kreen they can live a solitary existence, not being reliant on tokchak. (Even evil kreen rely on it.) They live in groups of 1-4, and at least one member of each group is a druid.

They have more powerful venom than other kreen, paralyzing oponents for a longer period of time.

Needless to say, most are a variant of neutral (LN, N and CN being the most common).

Tohr-kreen (at least, most J'ez, J'hol and Jeral) live in buildings made of crystallized z'ock'n mucus on a base of sand. Ew. They don't think of it that way though. (Z'ock'n are giant snails similar to ock'n.) Their structures can reach many storeys high.

Zik-trin: they look like pale kreen but little else is known for them. I use the stats for xixchil, but zik-trin are lawful evil (rather than chaotic neutral).
#10
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Apr 03, 2004 10:19:15
Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
Zik-trin: they look like pale kreen but little else is known for them. I use the stats for xixchil, but zik-trin are lawful evil (rather than chaotic neutral).

You mean Zik-Chil, right?
#11
psiseveredhead
Apr 03, 2004 11:10:34 Yes. Oops.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 12:20:10	If I understand it correctly the only difference between these two are social and cultural. The Tohr are settled but the Thri are wandering. So the ancient Thri-Kreen empire who the Great One supposedly lead, wouldn't that then be a Tohr-kreen empire, cause they are settled there. I was thinking if it was just a aspect of the Jeral empire with To'ksa as working class, or maybe the ancient Jo'ksa empire. When that empire didn't work out the Kreen there begin traveling the Tablelands and became Thri. I'm kinda new here so if this topic has been answered in a thread I didn't locate with search, forgive me.
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 01, 2004 12:56:03	Actually, IIRC, the ancient "Thri-Kreen Nation" was composed of Thri-Kreen in the Tablelands who freed themselves from the Tohr-Kreen or something like that. But overall, it's differences that are probably similar to the cultural differences between US citizens in, let's say, California vs. ones in..... Rhode Island.
#3 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 13:25:30	Tohr-Kreen are larger than Thri-Kreen. They also have a highly organized civilization far to the west of the Tyr Region. Unbeknownest to most people in the Tyr Region, there are actually many different varieties of Tohr-Kreen. The ones usually encountered are not indicative of the many varieties found in the secret empire. The Tohr-Kreen use various biochemical techniques to shape specialized sub-types to fill certain roles in their society.
#4 dawnstealer Apr 01, 2004 13:30:00	Okay, that's it: Me shottin' meself. ..and whoever implemented the "orc-talk" code. Bastards.
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 01, 2004 13:39:28	Originally posted by Psionycx Tohr-Kreen are larger than Thri-Kreen. They also have a highly organized civilization far to the west of the Tyr Region. Unbeknownest to most people in the Tyr Region, there are actually many different varieties of Tohr-Kreen. The ones usually encountered are not indicative of the many varieties found in the secret empire. The Tohr-Kreen use various biochemical techniques to shape specialized sub-types to fill certain roles in their society. Unbeknownst to many people? You mean you feel privaleged to have Thri-Kreen of Athas? The Tohr-Kreen do have members of the same subspecies as those found in the Tyr Region (I forget what they are called). They are the same size as well. Of the other 4 subspecies, there is, IIRC, only 1 or 2 that are bigger or equal size to those in the Tyr Region. The Zik-trin (which were called Tohr-Kreen originally, but then renamed in TKoA) are bigger and more aggressive. Plus, there are the Zik-Chil, or "priests of change" which many of us here tend to believe are the decendents of the outcast Rhulisti Nature-Benders from the Blue Age, and primarily responsible for the development of sentience in the Kreen races as well as the formation of the Tohr-Kreen Empire. In TKoA, it makes mention that there was a Thri-Kreen (not Tohr-Kreen) nation that the Great One ruled over, and doesn't exist any more. This is what is talked about in this thread, which Dawnstealer had started, and still was on the front page of this very forum. The efforts of these Inconsistancies threads is to discuss such things, so as to come to some sort of a consensus as to how everything works out. Splitting a single topic under discussion between two threads just adds to a level of confusion, IMHO.
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 02, 2004 12:12:29	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm In TKoA, it makes mention that there was a Thri-Kreen (not Tohr-Kreen) nation that the Great One ruled over, and doesn't exist any more. This is what is talked about in this thread, which Dawnstealer had started, and still was on the front page of this very forum. The efforts of these Inconsistancies threads is to discuss such things, so as to come to some sort of a consensus as to how everything works out. Splitting a single topic under discussion between two threads just adds to a level of confusion, IMHO. [/b] Well that thread is about the Great One but this one is about the difference between Thri-Kreen and Tohr-Kreen. Yeah and TKoA mentions that it was a thri-kreen nation, but thri means wandering, as in thri-kreen are wandering people whilst the tohr-kreen are settled. So if there was this great nation wouldn't they be considered settled? I mean before this empire ended maybe there where no Thri-Kreen and the Tohr-Kreen of that nation (both Jerol and To'ksa) started wandering around the tablelands and as such became Thri-kreen.
#7 psiseveredhead Apr 02, 2004 13:00:52	There are six subspecies of Kreen. In order of social rank, top to bottom: J'ez J'hol Jeral* T'keech To'ksa* Tondi All six subspecies are found in the Kreen Empire. The empire consists of many nations. The ones to the west have members of all races, but the eastern "frontier" nations (except Thaythilor) are single-race. Only the J'ez, J'hol and Jeral have their own nations ... the others collapsed. (J'ez are about 9 feet long, and j'hol are about 7 feet long. Tondi are slightly larger than other kreen, but look very different.) (It is my personal theory that the T'keech nation collapsed because of Rajaat's experiments at the Jagged Cliffs, but there's little proof of that.) In addition to these subspecies, the zik-chil (who are closely related to kreen) and the zik-trin exist. Now, large numbers of Jeral and To'ksa left the Kreen Empire long time ago for reasons unknown (presumably the zik-chil treated them too bad) over many human generations (and, therefore, many kreen generations). As a result, all thri-kreen are either Jeral or To'ksa. Thri-kreen means "wanderer" so a thri-kreen nation doesn't really make semantic sense, but there was one. (Maybe they started calling themselves tohr-kreen at the time, but the nation was destroyed, probably by Borys, so they're all thri-kreen again.) Now let's clear up the last bit of confusion, as I see it. According to the DSMC1, tohr-kreen are larger than thri-kreen and have special powers. This is not true. The tohr-kreen in DSMC1 were actually zik-trin. Zik-trin are physically and mentally modified by the zik-chil, causing them to lose their personality and have special powers. Zik-trin are not always larger than kreen either. In Thri-Kreen of Athas, the zik-trin'ta (scouts) were smaller and the zik-trin'ak (warriors) were larger. However, the zik-trin'ak are a new invention, but large zik-trin have been around for a while. There is virtually no info on zik-trin clerics (called haazik). It seems the authors of TKoA and previous supplements couldn't agree on zik-trin size. IMO it makes more sense to make the scouts smaller, but perhaps the scouts that infiltrated kreen packs (and helped form the thri-kreen branch of the Kiltektek, such as the psi/cleric Klik'Chaka'da) were actually larger than other kreen. All of the zik-trin we've seen so far were J'ez, Jeral and To'ksa, but the emperor of the kreen, who is actually a J'hol (somewhat odd) might also be a zik-trin.
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 02, 2004 23:10:49	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Zik-trin are not always larger than kreen either. In Thri-Kreen of Athas, the zik-trin'ta (scouts) were smaller and the zik-trin'ak (warriors) were larger. However, the zik-trin'ak are a new invention, but large zik-trin have been around for a while. There is virtually no info on zik-trin clerics (called haazik). It seems the authors of TKoA and previous supplements couldn't agree on zik-trin size. IMO it makes more sense to make the scouts smaller, but perhaps the scouts that infiltrated kreen packs (and helped form the thri-kreen branch of the Kiltektek, such as the psi/cleric Klik'Chaka'da) were actually larger than other kreen. All of the zik-trin we've seen so far were J'ez, Jeral and To'ksa, but the emperor of the kreen, who is actually a J'hol (somewhat odd) might also be a zik-trin. Well they gave a reason for the scouts to be larger so they have more change of surviving the scouting mission. I see no reason why they should be smaller. They aren't trying to sneak themself into the Tablelands, they just try to hide their real purpose. So if a Thri-Kreen would move back to the Tohr-Kreen lands would they call him Thri or Tohr. Guess it's based on how well he fits into the society again.
#9 psiseveredhead Apr 03, 2004 2:16:41	Originally posted by Chronic Alcoholic Well they gave a reason for the scouts to be larger so they have more change of surviving the scouting mission. I see no reason why they should be smaller. They aren't trying to sneak themself into the Tablelands, they just try to hide their real purpose. Thing is, they would be stronger regardless of their size, because of the augmentation they get from the zik-chil. In any event, their exact size isn't important. Make it fit your campaign. So if a Thri-Kreen would move back to the Tohr-Kreen lands would they call him Thri or Tohr. Guess it's based on how well he fits into the society again. Good question. If they were Jeral, they would be called thri-kreen, for the few days it takes for the zik-chil's J'ez agents to find them and do something terrible to them... The differences between To'ksa tohr-kreen and To'ksa thri-kreen are almost semantic. Basically, To'ksa speak Tohr-kreen, and live in a different place than the thri-kreen. Since the fall of their nation, the To'ksa Tohr-kreen have been barbaric wanderers. It's amazing they aren't actually called thri-kreen. PS I should have mentioned T'keech have no problem surviving in a moist environment. For that matter I might as well list their social positions: J'ez: they fill a role similar to that of the templars, although clerics are rare or non-existent among them. They do things like lead armies, oversee slaves, act as bureaucrafts, and so forth. Most are LN or LE. J'ez are powerful psychics. One half are psions (or maybe wilders). The rest are wild talents. J'ez make good writers and love making psionic items. (In 2e, this made more of a difference than in high-item 3e.) J'ez stand mostly upright and are dull black with spikes. They have big jaws and long antennae. (I no longer have my poster, so I can't tell you how many fingers they have. Note that all kreen subspecies, except Jeral, have long antennae. All kreen subspecies, except Jeral, love the smell (and taste) of frightened or running elves, but only thri-kreen or zik-trin have actually met them.) J'hol: these vicious warriors are also good craftsmen, especially when it comes to weaponry and architecture. They have weak venom and so spend most of their time making kyorkcha (larger chatkcha). They are pretty small (only 7 ft. tall) and agile (+1 bonus to dodge missiles, can jump backwards) with fiery red chitin and a very upright (humanoid) stance. In combat, they use mainly ranged weapons. Most are CE. Roughly 20% are psions and another 50% are wild talents. Jeral: these are similar to their thri-kreen cousins. Most are teachers or ranchers of food insects. Most Jeral tohr-kreen seem to be NG, but Jeral thri-kreen are usually CN. Jeral clerics are probably more common than among any other subspecies. T'keech: these are labor-slaves, striped green in color. Most live in small clutches in the cities, but some live independently amongst the other kreen nations. Like J'ez, they have big mouths. Most are NG or NE, with N being rare. To'ksa: same as thri-kreen in every way that counts. Most are CN. J'ez often round them up to be cannon-fodder... I mean soldiers. Yeah, that's it. Probably the most victimized subspecies by the zik-trin. No wonder they ran away. Tondi: large and pink-violet, they are all female and reproduce by parthenogensis. They also live a really long time for kreen. They resemble rock crystal and oni flowers, which they often live among. (Personally I think this is goofy, but anyway...) Unlike most kreen they can live a solitary existence, not being reliant on tokchak. (Even evil kreen rely on it.) They live in groups of 1-4, and at least one member of each group is a druid. They have more powerful venom than other kreen, paralyzing oponents for a longer period of time. Needless to say, most are a variant of neutral (LN, N and CN being the most common). Tohr-kreen (at least, most J'ez, J'hol and Jeral) live in buildings made of crystallized z'ock'n mucus on a base of sand. Ew. They don't think of it that way though. (Z'ock'n are giant snails similar to ock'n.) Their structures can reach many storeys high. Zik-trin: they look like pale kreen but little else is known for them. I use the stats for xixchil, but zik-trin are lawful evil (rather than chaotic neutral).
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 03, 2004 10:19:15	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Zik-trin: they look like pale kreen but little else is known for them. I use the stats for xixchil, but zik-trin are lawful evil (rather than chaotic neutral). You mean Zik-Chil, right?
#11 psiseveredhead Apr 03, 2004 11:10:34	Yes. Oops.