Especially interested in seeing any epic darklords (and their domains) people have come up with!
However, the Darklords are under powered in many cases. Given many have immortality or purpetuity and decades/centuries of experience you would expect them to be advancing in levels to the practical maximum (20th), in particular the three hags, Hazlick, Adam and Sir Hireguard all strike me as ripe for more levels.
Thinking about epic levels I have two ideas. Firstly I am developing a Plateau of Leng type-place based loosely on HP Lovecraft and the Nightmare Lands. If the characters are Ravenloft natives they will face creatures of sizes and shapes completely alien to their experience, which should cause fear and madness checks easily. But also remember that abominations and aberations could also be common, which would facilitate horror (Atropal, Hunefars, etc) checks. Add to this that at higher levels mental contact could be common (psions, detect thoughts, mind ****, etc) the levels of insanity could get quite high.
It doesnt sit easily with Ravenloft so the development work is slow and rather tiresome.
I am, however, making the Shadowrift epic level. Simply everything native to it have +20 HD while in it, so even the smallest powrie or alven can become very dangerous. I am also treating any mental contact with fey as requiring a madness check. I am having some difficulty with this conception as well (but I always do when writing fey stories).
As i am having trouble with these conceptions and making them gel with Ravenloft I may just end the series of stories and start back at first level, back where it all started in the hamlet of Noxom.
This however does lead to interesting adventure possiblities, such as the search for the remains of a leendary band of strngers who talked of a distant land and had unearthlypowers, etc, etc, etc.
-Eric Gorman
(I do essentially agree with Grimfondle that Ravenloft doesn't fit well with epic. I assume it can be done well, but I'm not tempted to try. Ever try Dark Sun or Planescape?)
Epic Levels = Shoot yourself in the face for even mentioning this PoS.
Ravenloft isn't about levels, or OOBERIFIC ITEMS, it's about the game and the story.
You are totally right in that the story takes precident; however, I think one only needs to think of 9/11. America is (proportedly) the most powerful country in the world, but a terrorist strike struck (well...) terror and a sense of horror into the American (and world) community. Provided the story is good, the level of characters shouldn't really interfere with a sense of horror.
So, again, NOT debate, just examples if people have used epic level content well in their campaigns...
People don't wake up and say "Holy
I gained 3 levels for all those orcs I slaughtered" and then spend breakfast distributing their skill points and picking new feats.My PCs have to work for what they want to learn and if the character is being played well and by a knowledgable person they'll realize they are going to screw up many times, even while it is critical that they dont (A la whirlwind attack for the first time amidst a band of gnolls.) But as the player rounds his character and progessing themselves (practicing every night in camp, target practice, smacking a dummy around, etc) they get better and then they gain skills.
I could go on forever but that wouldn't pertain much to RL or this forum at all.
A high-level PC wizard/sorceror/what-have-you (and by high level, I mean 12+) is not only one of the rarest things in the setting, they will also be the least understood and therefore the most distrusted and feared. This should lead to such excellent potential rp situations as ostracization and hostility from the locals, and the undue attention of the darklord of every domain they walk into. Unless they retire and sequester themselves as hermits, they probably wouldn't live long enough to reach epic level. Being chased by mobs shouting "Burn the heretic!! Burn the witch!" can be quite hair-raising. What can you do? Turning and defending yourself by attacking the innocent, though uneducated, townsfolk would only lead to powers checks...
The player who picks a spell-casting class, needs to be ready to really think quick to keep themselves low-key and alive. Perhaps they disquise their research and spells behind a mask of "science"?
Psionics is easy: I've never liked Psionics, and so I never use it in my campaigns.
Magic Items? Also very easy. Magic, and therefore Magicians, and therefore Magic Items, are so rare that even a moderately powerful item from the DMG would be considered epic.
Since you're looking for specific examples: I remember I played a game once in which I finally gained a magic weapon around 7th or 8th level. The item was a +2 sickle. It had a name, it had a history, it even had a few bonus special powers. (I forget what they were, but it was friggin' cool, man.) Up until that point, I was using a silver sickle. I could handle lycanthropes, but anything else that required a +1, or better, weapon to hit we ran away from, or came up with a more creative way to defeat. For example: I may not be able to cut or bludgeon that vampire, but he sure roasts up nice and crispy with this torch to his coffin.
The spellcasting classes are the ones that will cause you the most trouble at epic levels in Ravenloft. Priests are less trouble than wizards, since religion is more widely accepted by the masses. The Darklord, however, may not be willing to put up with that kind of competition. Remember, the Darklord sees and hears all. In many instances, the DL knows all as well. If I were Strahd, and knew that a local priest of goodness was gaining in power and influence (and a DL would find out), I'd pay them a visit before they were strong enough to challenge me.
Therein lies the challenge. Do you make your DL look like a puss by allowing your PC's to reach epic level? Or do you come up with a a 40th level DL in order to provide your epic level pc's a challenge? This seems like a catch 22 to me. You're forcing yourself to constantly create more and more elaborate and powerful npc's in order to accomodate your ridiculously powerful pc's. Pretty soon you'd be forced to trapping Godly Avatars in the DemiPlane, just to give your pc's a challenging enemy.
I much prefer to have my pc's take longer to reach higher levels (by giving out less xp), so that if they make it to 15th level+, they're old enough to retire. It gives closure and a good ending to a very long campaign.
VNM
'I've used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead."
There are a few darklords whom I see as epic-level potential, if you're set on doing it. Strahd is already 20th level, so it wouldn't take much to make him epic. Azalin also. Yes, he has an xp cap that holds him at level 18, but the DM can raise that to a higher limit if he really wants to. Of course Vecna and Kas were perfect epic material, but they're no longer in Ravenloft now, so you'd have to either get ahold of some older accessories dealing with them or custom-make them yourself. Then there's Meredoth, who can probably provide a fair challenge for low-epic level PCs. After all, he's got access to all the spells you want, and casts spontaneously. Pretty much the best of both wizard and sorcerer.
In conclusion, I don't think epic levels and Ravenloft mix well. However, if you're really interested in doing it, you can pull it off with a few changes.
Otherwise what would they do? Sit next to Strahd's coffin and whack him dead everytime the dark powers restore his existance?
Originally posted by VNM
Psionics is easy: I've never liked Psionics, and so I never use it in my campaigns.
That isnt easy, that is an evasion. And what if a player really wanted to play a psion?
I ask because myself and a couple of other players have just balled out our DM for placing such heavy restrictions on character development that we cannot play the characters as conceived, nor by the skills we want, learn spells that we are capable off.
I am thoroughly against this sort of exclusion without complete buy-in from the players.
That isnt easy, that is an evasion. And what if a player really wanted to play a psion?
The bonus of being a DM is if you say it it's final. I'm open to letting my players argue for what they want, but certain things just don't fit into the game. Personally I don't think Psionics fit into D&D at all, but Ravenloft I find it even less likely. If the DM's cool with it, by all means it's his(her) game. If not, who cares what the player wants to play. I want to play a Wizard Tarrasque with 18 Intelligence, but my DM says no and I'm cool with it.
Just saying things like Psions can be hard to work into campaigns, and it's a DMs right to say no.I think that psionics are ill - ESPECIALLY in Ravenloft. I think that kinda stuff fits the "gothic" vibe way better than arcane or divine magic. I allow all three in my Game, but of course they're all severly limited. Low-magic world, low-psionic world.
But it DOES exist. I'm just wondering why you guys choose not to incorporate it.
Okay. "Why I hate psionics". By VNM, Esquire.
A) The character class is redundant. There are already spell effects that can do exactly the same things, so why bother? Just seems like another power-gamer excuse to me.
B) My first exposure to psionics was with Rifts, which is a high-fantasy, high-technology, futuristic, sci-fi, post-apocalyptic game setting. I.E. the direct, total, and utter antithesis to Ravenloft. If you disagree with me on this point, then maybe you should just be playing Rifts? (The same reason why I nixed that lame Mechanical/Pollution domain with the bully Darklord...what were their names? Scaetha, or something?) Nonetheless, I'll admit to be guilty of letting my first experience with the ability colour my sentiments toward the settings in which it belongs.
C) I'm of the belief that wizards and priests (most npc priests in my games are just diplomats with no powers) should be extremely rare in the first place, so yet another spellcaster-like class would just be overkill.
D) Dominic D'Honaire (Yes, I do make him eat Lebanese food) becomes much more unique and difficult to combat if the pc's think he's a spellcaster. That's assuming the pc's figure out he's an adversary, let alone a DL.
E) I like to make my Ravenloft so low-fantasy that it's almost Dark Ages-esque. So yes, I'm even thinking of doing away with demihumans entirely (for the most part), which would make Sithicus and Darkon that much more interesting, frightening and unique.
I suppose those are the main reasons.
Psionics.
I'm not a big fan personally, and it's honestly because of the fact that to much of it is similiar to magic classes. BUT I think that psionics would fit even better into a campaign in RL than in most other worlds. Think about it this way...
You have a party of adventurers, one is a psion. They encounter a lich or mummy who has been around for centuries, has killed hundreds if not thousands of beings in various cruel ways. The psion reaches out and makes contact with this inherently evil creature. He is bombarded with vile images, horrors conducted in the name of the undead monster before them, or even just a glimpse into the mind of a sinister, evil being. Wouldn't that be grounds for a madness check? There are so many creatures in RL or even that can be altered and used in RL that could cause more havok to a psion than any other class if you went about it right.
Being a DM, you have the call on what you want to do ultimately, but I think limiting pc's limits yourself really. Variety in characters can lead to variety in encounters when you're trying to come up with encounters that will challenge all involved.
AS for the topic itself.
I think any world could lead itself to success with the Epic Level hand book. All it takes really is some work on the part of the DM. PErsonally I dont tend to use established domains in my game. I prefer to make a small island or even a piece of the main land, make a new dark lord and realm and go from there. IT wouldnt be hard to add epic levels just by altering that domain. IT could be fun.
Bill
Originally posted by don_john
The bonus of being a DM is if you say it it's final. .....If the DM's cool with it, by all means it's his(her) game. If not, who cares what the player wants to play.
No. It is not the DMs game, it is everyones game. Players and DM alike. If the DM thinks "this is my game and I will do what I like", they risk losing the group, or thier slot to DM as players abscond.
Clearly playing a recognised character class is not the same as playing a monster/PC class. The fact you think it is....well, the prase "catagorisation error" springs to mind.
Originally posted by Greater_Lammasu
The domain lord is a demi lich and his main minions are his Worm that walks wife and his epic lich children. A big messed up family in a monster infested ruined land.....
This is more like what I was hoping to hear about!
Sounds interesting! Can you tell us more about it! How does this demilich darklord suffer? And what do his "messed up family" add to this?
Originally posted by Greater_Lammasu
The domain lord is a demi lich and his main minions are his Worm that walks wife and his epic lich children. A big messed up family in a monster infested ruined land.....
I have a similar idea, plus the demi liches curse is that regardless of where and how he hides his gem encrusted bone shard a small dog called Max finds it and carries it off, burying it in the domain somewhere.
You think that's too silly? I have also made a rule call ("hey, its my game") that at certain levels of horror the human mind interprets events as humourous to avoid the malign paradigm shift that would follow TRUE understanding.
You think that's too silly? I have also made a rule call ("hey, its my game") that at certain levels of horror the human mind interprets events as humourous to avoid the malign paradigm shift that would follow TRUE understanding.
You're scary... nifty.
Clearly playing a recognised character class is not the same as playing a monster/PC class. The fact you think it is....well, the prase "catagorisation error" springs to mind.
It wasn't an error, it was an example. There are numerous prestige classes, etc, that I also don't think fit well in certain situations. The game is also supposed to be fun for the DM, and if I don't feel like shelling out all the extra work to have a psion in my campaign it's my perogative.
As for catagory error I could counter with the fact that their are rules for monster creation and by someone saying I can't play a troll barbarian they are limiting their players and their game. The job of the DM is to make things run smoothly and ensure people have fun. If die rolls are bad, don't play a paladin. If psions don't fit the campaign, play something else. If my players don't like it they can find another DM.
Originally posted by don_john
As for catagory error I could counter with the fact that their are rules for monster creation and by someone saying I can't play a troll barbarian they are limiting their players and their game. .
This weekend I am absconding from the game. One bad rule call to many over the last few weeks broke my will to play. If I alone felt like that then I would be playing, but I am one of several players who feel the same. The difference is I have to make a 400 mile round trip to play, so
me off week after week makes the whole journey pointless.So be warned
However, the group let me know gradually that they would like to play a monster campaign and not a Ravenloft campaign next time its my slot (4 weeks) so Savage Species it is and the search for the Paragon Engine.
And why not? We only really get together to drink vodka and hurl insults anyway.
Originally posted by Grimfondle
I have a similar idea, plus the demi liches curse is that regardless of where and how he hides his gem encrusted bone shard a small dog called Max finds it and carries it off, burying it in the domain somewhere.
Played too many games of Rogue?
Originally posted by foxylady
Played too many games of Rogue?
No, I have a small dog called Max....
Originally posted by Grimfondle
No, I have a small dog called Max....
Oh, ok. In Rogue (if you're not familiar) your adventuring character happens to have a sidekick who is a small dog...
Epic Level Ravenloft has alwayz been a touchy topic within the RL community. Some are adamant abou the fact it cannot be done. Others seek solutions or suggestions on how a Game of this magnitude can be done. But most will just tell you it cannot be done.
Well right or wrong. Agree or disagree. Rage or accept. Epic Level Ravenloft is real. And it's going on. Right NOW.
Reckonings - Taking Ravenloft to Epic Levels
Come on down right away and be apart of this historic experiment. Is it possible? Can it be done after all? Only one way to find out: sign up and MAKE IT HAPPEN!
But I have a lot of ideas about Ravenloft and high levels.
First, you have to be very strict with rule interpretation and not let the players "get away" with anything. Second, this is best for the weekend inhell style play.......a preferably small group of high level characters find themselves in Ravenloft......The appropriate Dark Lord should immediately sense there arival and start to find out about them.......keep the players in the dark about most things if possible. Never let them know how powerful their opponents are and try to keep them from just blasting every problem away.
Also, the dark powers don't have to play fair.....have the players "wake up" somewhere without any of their usual items and suddenly they aren't as powerful as before......how many wizards sleep with their spell books?
Make sure the dark lords fight only when they can win......
Wear the players down....don't give them a chance to rest.
Have them "addicted" to Ivan's favorite poison.....
Have someone they care about held prisoner.
All of those magic items in Azalins vault are there for just such an emergency...........Everyone in some domains "are out to get them"..........
I think there are lots of ways to chalenge high lever players in Ravenloft, but it takes a very nasty DM to pull it off.
As MSD pointed out, my "Reckonings" game is starting up right now, in an attempt to demonstrate the ideas I put forward in this thread. We've still got room for one more player, if anyone is interested in creating a 27th level character with 2.9 million GP to spend on equipment. Just check out the "Reckonings" forum atMSD's Site, and let's make this happen.
For those who aren't interested in playing, come watch the experiment unfold, and maybe take some ideas back home to your own RL games!
Originally posted by Talon Moonshadow
First, you have to be very strict with rule interpretation and not let the players "get away" with anything. Second, this is best for the weekend inhell style play.
[snip]
Never let them know how powerful their opponents are and try to keep them from just blasting every problem away.
I agree with your first point, but I totally disagree about Weekend in Hell. IMO, the best way to do epic RL is to have the PC's directly, emotionally involved in the setting, and that's easiest to do with a native campaign. WIH games make it far too easy for the PC's to blast away epic-ly with all their epic-ness, never caring about consequences. Sure, some of those consequences bring about Powers Checks, but this isn't a complete solution.
The best way to "keep them from just blasting every problem away" is to give them problems that are not blast-able. I gave some examples of this in the thread I mention in my last post, but there are many more, especially in RL.
In psychology, we sometimes talk about "first-order change" versus "second-order change," when referring to how people handle problems. If a woman's husband has a problem with alcohol, she points it out to him. He continues to drink heavily, perhaps increasing, and she steps up her criticism to the point of nagging. This is first-order change. It's doing more of the same thing--trying harder, applying more force. With real-life problems it hardly ever works.
Second-order change takes place when you try something else. Something different. Something that changes the system itself, and thereby all the relationships in it.
Applying this to RL gaming, take my example from the FoS board about a feyr infestation caused by a little boy with nightmares. This kid has AC 8, 1 hp, and does subdual damage if he scores a critical hit. Killing him is easy, and it even stops the outbreak of monsters, but it's not a solution.
Originally posted by Talon Moonshadow
I think there are lots of ways to chalenge high lever players in Ravenloft, but it takes a very nasty DM to pull it off.
Thank you. It's been a lifelong ambition, really.
Originally posted by Lovepuddin
This is more like what I was hoping to hear about!
Sounds interesting! Can you tell us more about it! How does this demilich darklord suffer? And what do his "messed up family" add to this?
Well i'm thinking of making the doman Ry'len like. See my idea is that it was a great Multiplanar metropolis that is destroyed by the gods for the experiments the Dark lord perform on visitors. I'm thinking of making the curse his family. He can't kill them because they are already undead and he can't escape them because he's traped.
Originally posted by Greater_Lammasu
See my idea is that it was a great Multiplanar metropolis that is destroyed by the gods for the experiments the Dark lord perform on visitors.
Now this is an excellent idea!! You've got me to thinking already! Tell us how it goes!
Also, Hazlik is trying to develop a mighty spell to destroy every Mulan (see Gazetteer I); anyone come up with a possible epic level spell for this? (I imagine it would be VERY powerful and obviously beyond a 14th-level evoker...) I'd love to see what someone has come up with!
Has anyone come up with stats for the Gentleman Caller?
Originally posted by Lovepuddin
Has anyone come up with stats for the Gentleman Caller?
I believe the most recent Undead Sea Scrolls had some versions of him.
Originally posted by Malus Black
I believe the most recent Undead Sea Scrolls had some versions of him.
I downloaded the 2003 version of the Undead Sea Scrolls, but couldn't find any mention of him...
Although there is an issue with the limited resources in Ravenloft that can work to bring things around anyway. The first thing that I would do is to 'update' (level up) some of the darklords. They won't of course have access to the same power level of equipment or spells. That will make them persue the PC's who do, with all the more ferver.
After all how often did Strahd have guests at Castle Ravenloft to 'keep an eye on them' and end up learning new abilities or spells. Darklords will use the PC's and they will grow while the PC's loose equipment and learn the truth about their new 'home'.
The other point is that this is Ravenloft. There is nothing saying that you make it through the Mist with all of your equipment. Characters loose or gain abilities as the Dark Powers see fit. (Jander and withering touch, Azalin and no longer being able to learn new spells) There is nothing saying that epic has to be overpowering, especially in Ravenloft!