How much foresight and power do the deities of Krynn really possess? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How much foresight and power do the deities of Krynn really possess?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Apr 02, 2004 0:49:18 Is Zivilyn the only god who can see the future? Did Tahkisis know she would fail in each of her endeavors to rule the world, even to the point of seeing her own death? It would be interesting if this were true, if her rage and spite toward all good caused her to knowingly act in a manner that would end in her destruction, simply because it was her divine nature and she could conceive of nothing else.

Do the gods really chart the course of Krynn's mortal life? Are they even capable? Or are they simply role-players doing the bidding of the High God, maintaining balance in much the same way as the forces of nature itself?
#2
Nived
Apr 02, 2004 8:01:05 The Gods of Krynn are not all knowing and all seeing. They can't be, neither can any God in any D&D game really. If they knew all and saw all then how would any of these stories get going anyway?

*SPOILERS*

If Takhisis was all seeing then she would have been able to find Goldmoon and the Blue Crystal staff in Chronicles right quick.

If Paladine was all knowing then surey he would have not allowed Takky to steal the metalic dragon eggs and break the treaty keeping them out of the world.

If Reorx was all seeing would the whole Greygem incidents happened?

I also contend that these aren't matters of one god simpley hiding things from another god, case in point durring the War of Souls Takhisis the only god on Krynn couldn't find one particular Kender.

Besides, most gods, even those of evil prefer to let their followers have free will (exceptions are Morgion amd Tahkisis) Sargonnas lets his followers choose their own paths, Hiddukel prefers tricking people into doing his bidding of their own free will rather than forcing them, Nuitari wants devoted followers not slaves. The Gods of light and twilight also allow their followers frew will even if their followers are doing something completely stupid (See Dark Thane).

Given this and the fact Tahkisis could barely ever keep her followers from killing each other I'd say that the God's ability to chart out a mortals life is small.
#3
Dragonhelm
Apr 02, 2004 9:15:16 Prior to the Age of Mortals, the gods had a connection with the River of Time. They had some foresight, yes, but they also knew that the gift of free will enabled the River of Time to change its course.

In the Age of Mortals, the gods no longer have that same connection to the River of Time, and so the future remains shrouded in mystery for them as well as for mortals.
#4
The_White_Sorcerer
Apr 02, 2004 10:16:44
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
They had some foresight, yes, but they also knew that the gift of free will enabled the River of Time to change its course.

Silly Dragonhelm. Everyone knows that only time-traveling Graygem races and events like stealing the world can change the course of the River.

I think the only deities that had some sort of foresight were Gilean (for he had the Tobril) and Zivilyn (for he existed in all times).
But now, as you said, the future is clouded even for them.
#5
wolffenjugend_dup
Apr 02, 2004 10:27:12 It's also possible that the gods know what will happen but are powerless to take action themselves due to mortals' ability to have free will. Or perhaps the gods only "know" on a subconscious level. Or perhaps all the gods can see the future, effectively meaning none of them can act b/c all of them know (and would take countermeasures).

In short, if the gods truly know they don't act upon it.
#6
Dragonhelm
Apr 02, 2004 11:08:55
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Silly Dragonhelm. Everyone knows that only time-traveling Graygem races and events like stealing the world can change the course of the River.

Ah, but that's the course of the River of Time in the past. The future is unwritten.

Silly White Sorcerer. ;)
#7
The_White_Sorcerer
Apr 02, 2004 11:25:35
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Ah, but that's the course of the River of Time in the past. The future is unwritten.

But you were talking about the pre-Age of Mortals era. Before the Age of Mortals, the future was written.

Silly Dragonhelm.
#8
Dragonhelm
Apr 02, 2004 11:53:55
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
But you were talking about the pre-Age of Mortals era. Before the Age of Mortals, the future was written.

Silly Dragonhelm.

Ah, but if that were truly the case, then there would be no actual free will, as our destinies would already be written.

Silly Dragonhelm.

Hey, waitaminute.... ;)
#9
zombiegleemax
Apr 02, 2004 23:23:45 I was always under the impression that the gods, especially Zivilyn and Gilean, could see all possible futures, but could not discern which future would actually eventuate.
#10
zombiegleemax
Apr 04, 2004 0:37:28 agreed.

I personally believe that Paladine, up untill the moment that the KingPriest actually made his demands, did not believe the KingPriest would go thru with what he did. WHen you look at what Paladine was like before the cataclysm, it did seem to me that he wanted to shift the balance all the way to Good. With the virtual drive to extinction of the priests of neutrality and evil in the age of Ishtar, I believe Paladine must hav eknown what was going on, and kept on granting the KingPriest more and more, not knowing what he was doing.

In the third book of the KINGPRIEST TRILOGY, the KingPriest noted someone elses precence in the room prior to his actual event. I think those precences could well have been Takhisis and Gillean, as both had probably vowed that if the KingPriest went thru with what he was going to do, that the Cataclysm would come, even though Gillean was well aware that it would allow Takhisis to return to Krynn (the ban forced upon her by Huma).

So I think their observation on events is much the same as anyone's, that they can see what is going on, but can't actually tell if thigns will ultimately go thru with what is planned. The Gods just happen to have better eyes and ears in more places.
#11
stunspore
Apr 04, 2004 19:57:06 Deities would definitely have some insight. But mortals have free will so that means that the deities won't know what happens (although they (prob Zivilyn) would know all the possible futures but not which one would result). When it comes down to the hour of the mortals, the choice where mortals make history, deities would be sitting in their thrones wondering what the final result is.
#12
zombiegleemax
Apr 04, 2004 21:34:06
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Prior to the Age of Mortals, the gods had a connection with the River of Time. They had some foresight, yes, but they also knew that the gift of free will enabled the River of Time to change its course.

In the Age of Mortals, the gods no longer have that same connection to the River of Time, and so the future remains shrouded in mystery for them as well as for mortals.

And I would say that makes Krynn a much more fun and interesting place.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 02, 2004 0:49:18	Is Zivilyn the only god who can see the future? Did Tahkisis know she would fail in each of her endeavors to rule the world, even to the point of seeing her own death? It would be interesting if this were true, if her rage and spite toward all good caused her to knowingly act in a manner that would end in her destruction, simply because it was her divine nature and she could conceive of nothing else. Do the gods really chart the course of Krynn's mortal life? Are they even capable? Or are they simply role-players doing the bidding of the High God, maintaining balance in much the same way as the forces of nature itself?
#2 Nived Apr 02, 2004 8:01:05	The Gods of Krynn are not all knowing and all seeing. They can't be, neither can any God in any D&D game really. If they knew all and saw all then how would any of these stories get going anyway? SPOILERS If Takhisis was all seeing then she would have been able to find Goldmoon and the Blue Crystal staff in Chronicles right quick. If Paladine was all knowing then surey he would have not allowed Takky to steal the metalic dragon eggs and break the treaty keeping them out of the world. If Reorx was all seeing would the whole Greygem incidents happened? I also contend that these aren't matters of one god simpley hiding things from another god, case in point durring the War of Souls Takhisis the only god on Krynn couldn't find one particular Kender. Besides, most gods, even those of evil prefer to let their followers have free will (exceptions are Morgion amd Tahkisis) Sargonnas lets his followers choose their own paths, Hiddukel prefers tricking people into doing his bidding of their own free will rather than forcing them, Nuitari wants devoted followers not slaves. The Gods of light and twilight also allow their followers frew will even if their followers are doing something completely stupid (See Dark Thane). Given this and the fact Tahkisis could barely ever keep her followers from killing each other I'd say that the God's ability to chart out a mortals life is small.
#3 Dragonhelm Apr 02, 2004 9:15:16	Prior to the Age of Mortals, the gods had a connection with the River of Time. They had some foresight, yes, but they also knew that the gift of free will enabled the River of Time to change its course. In the Age of Mortals, the gods no longer have that same connection to the River of Time, and so the future remains shrouded in mystery for them as well as for mortals.
#4 The_White_Sorcerer Apr 02, 2004 10:16:44	Originally posted by Dragonhelm They had some foresight, yes, but they also knew that the gift of free will enabled the River of Time to change its course. Silly Dragonhelm. Everyone knows that only time-traveling Graygem races and events like stealing the world can change the course of the River. I think the only deities that had some sort of foresight were Gilean (for he had the Tobril) and Zivilyn (for he existed in all times). But now, as you said, the future is clouded even for them.
#5 wolffenjugend_dup Apr 02, 2004 10:27:12	It's also possible that the gods know what will happen but are powerless to take action themselves due to mortals' ability to have free will. Or perhaps the gods only "know" on a subconscious level. Or perhaps all the gods can see the future, effectively meaning none of them can act b/c all of them know (and would take countermeasures). In short, if the gods truly know they don't act upon it.
#6 Dragonhelm Apr 02, 2004 11:08:55	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer Silly Dragonhelm. Everyone knows that only time-traveling Graygem races and events like stealing the world can change the course of the River. Ah, but that's the course of the River of Time in the past. The future is unwritten. Silly White Sorcerer. ;)
#7 The_White_Sorcerer Apr 02, 2004 11:25:35	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Ah, but that's the course of the River of Time in the past. The future is unwritten. But you were talking about the pre-Age of Mortals era. Before the Age of Mortals, the future was written. Silly Dragonhelm.
#8 Dragonhelm Apr 02, 2004 11:53:55	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer But you were talking about the pre-Age of Mortals era. Before the Age of Mortals, the future was written. Silly Dragonhelm. Ah, but if that were truly the case, then there would be no actual free will, as our destinies would already be written. Silly Dragonhelm. Hey, waitaminute.... ;)
#9 zombiegleemax Apr 02, 2004 23:23:45	I was always under the impression that the gods, especially Zivilyn and Gilean, could see all possible futures, but could not discern which future would actually eventuate.
#10 zombiegleemax Apr 04, 2004 0:37:28	agreed. I personally believe that Paladine, up untill the moment that the KingPriest actually made his demands, did not believe the KingPriest would go thru with what he did. WHen you look at what Paladine was like before the cataclysm, it did seem to me that he wanted to shift the balance all the way to Good. With the virtual drive to extinction of the priests of neutrality and evil in the age of Ishtar, I believe Paladine must hav eknown what was going on, and kept on granting the KingPriest more and more, not knowing what he was doing. In the third book of the KINGPRIEST TRILOGY, the KingPriest noted someone elses precence in the room prior to his actual event. I think those precences could well have been Takhisis and Gillean, as both had probably vowed that if the KingPriest went thru with what he was going to do, that the Cataclysm would come, even though Gillean was well aware that it would allow Takhisis to return to Krynn (the ban forced upon her by Huma). So I think their observation on events is much the same as anyone's, that they can see what is going on, but can't actually tell if thigns will ultimately go thru with what is planned. The Gods just happen to have better eyes and ears in more places.
#11 stunspore Apr 04, 2004 19:57:06	Deities would definitely have some insight. But mortals have free will so that means that the deities won't know what happens (although they (prob Zivilyn) would know all the possible futures but not which one would result). When it comes down to the hour of the mortals, the choice where mortals make history, deities would be sitting in their thrones wondering what the final result is.
#12 zombiegleemax Apr 04, 2004 21:34:06	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Prior to the Age of Mortals, the gods had a connection with the River of Time. They had some foresight, yes, but they also knew that the gift of free will enabled the River of Time to change its course. In the Age of Mortals, the gods no longer have that same connection to the River of Time, and so the future remains shrouded in mystery for them as well as for mortals. And I would say that makes Krynn a much more fun and interesting place.