This one comes from a contradiction in the Prism Pentad (arguably the canon book, since it was written by one of the creators) and pretty much every sourcebook that followed. The claim? That giants evolved from two dwarves who stole the Dark Lens.
I see two simple solutions to this and one obvious one. In all likelihood, Dregoth had not been conceived when the book was written. As Dregoth was the "giant-slayer," how could have have slayed giants if they did not exist until after the Cleansing Wars? So, in this version, the original book is just wrong, or is based on a history that is myth and legend instead of reality.
For the simple solutions: the dwarves turned into Beast-headed giants, which is why they are so variable, shorter, and smarter than their larger giant cousins (plain and desert).
The other one? Maybe it was just the giants on that island that evolved from the dwarves.
I think this one will probably have a quick answer, but I've been proven wrong on a few of the others, so let's hear it.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I wonder...could becoming a giant have been, during the green age, an early, more primative version of the process that turns a wizard into a dragon?
If that is the case then beast headed giants evovled at a higly excellerated rate.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
On page six of the City by the Silt Sea Campaign book it says in paragraph 4 last sentance:
"In the end, the Ravager claimed victory, slew the giant king, and declared himself Dregoth, sorcerer-king of Giustenal"
the next paragraph says the following as its opening sentance:
" This was the start of the cleansing wars"
This leads me to believe a few things
1: Beast head giants were around at the begining of the cleansing wars
2: Dregoth claimed a city as his home base right away and may have been the model that all the other sorcerer kings followed when they later claimed cities as their own.
3: I have no idea how to make giants evolve from those 2 particular dwarves.
1) The two dwarves who stole the dark lens, Jor'orsh and Sa'ram, mutate into rather strange giants in "The Obsidian Oracle." The book, while I don't have it in front of me, definitively states that they were the first giants (someone might want to dig out there book and toss that line down somewhere in this thread - my copy's untouchable in Hawaii).
2) Just about every sourcebook involving Dregoth mention that he was the Ravager of Giants. Since the Dark Leans was not stolen until after Borys became the Dragon (after Rajaat was imprisoned), how could he have been the Ravager of Giants if giants did not exist yet?
Again, I believe the solution is simply that Dregoth had not been conceived when the Prism Pentad was written, so the Giant-creation theory in that book should be tossed in favor of the Wanderer's Chronical and City by the Silt Sea.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Here's where the inconsistency comes into play:
1) The two dwarves who stole the dark lens, Jor'orsh and Sa'ram, mutate into rather strange giants in "The Obsidian Oracle." The book, while I don't have it in front of me, definitively states that they were the first giants (someone might want to dig out there book and toss that line down somewhere in this thread - my copy's untouchable in Hawaii).
2) Just about every sourcebook involving Dregoth mention that he was the Ravager of Giants. Since the Dark Leans was not stolen until after Borys became the Dragon (after Rajaat was imprisoned), how could he have been the Ravager of Giants if giants did not exist yet?
So Dregoth had a really, really easy job with it. "Okay, you two." :blam:
Seriously, though, maybe there was a distinction made between Beast-headed Giants and other Giants(descended from Dwarves). Dregoth was sent after Beast-headed Giants.
Originally posted by beyowulf
Seriously, though, maybe there was a distinction made between Beast-headed Giants and other Giants(descended from Dwarves). Dregoth was sent after Beast-headed Giants.
I like that Idea alot, but it dosent really explain the Crag Giants from Mind lords of the last Sea. Although I must admit that I would be really comfortable with the concept that Beast head giants are from the green age, regular giants are an evolution of dwarfs after the cleansing wars ended or near its end and that Crag giants just don't exist.
Finding a compromise is ideal, though, so let's shoot for it. I'm sure Mach, Shei, Xlor, and Nyt (among others) will have something to say about this one.
Orginally Darksun giants are like the crag giants in The Mind Lords of the last sea box set. Then roughly 6,000 years before the cleansing wars begin the mind lords close off the last sea region thus creating a small refuge of orginal darksun giants.
We now have a few options,
Option 1:
Flash forward to the time of magic. As a race deemed by Rajaat to be to slow to learn the ways magic the giants of the era create a process to increase there intellect and maybe even cause them to be reborn in the images of their gods. Thus the creation of the beasthead giant ritual which they all undergo. After this ritual all future beastheaded giants are born with beast heads or shorty after birth undergo the ritual. This also has the side effect of making them a far more nasty opponent during the cleansing wars.
Option 2:
Flash forward to the cleansing wars. The giants in a desperate to defeat Dregoth they create the process that transforms them from giants to beast headed giants. After this ritual all future beastheaded giants are born with beast heads or shorty after birth undergo the ritual. This has the effect of making all of them far more powerful psions/melee combatants and greatly increases te chances of them being wizards.
Flash foward to the theft of the dark lens. Prior to this there were no non-beasted giants on athas except for the ones under the protection of the mind lords. So from Jor'orsh and Sa'ram descend the regular darksun giants that we all know and love. The one tribe of beast head giants that Agis runs into are Giants descended from Jor'orsh and Sa'ram but have stolen the sercret to swaping heads from other beast head giants or found the method amongst ancient ruins. Remeber that since the method was created by slow giants that it would be possible for other not so smart giants to understand the proccess if they came across it.
Any way thats my rough Idea on how to incorporate all of the darksun giant ideas into one idea.
When sourcebook material comes in conflict with a novel, I'd probably go with the sourcebook, all things being equal. There are multiple sources which list Dregoth as the Champion tasked with killing the giants.
and BTW, the beastheads are essentially the same as normal giants, except that they have learned a ritual that harnessess the power of the dark lens to replace their own heads with the head of an animal companion. Their old giant heads are kept in a crystalline pit where they go mad after years of imprisonment. Sometimes the Beastheads throw prisoners into the pit, and the disembodied heads suck the life force out of them. Its also implied that the bodies of the animals are thrown into the pit as well, where they stay at the bottom as skeletal monsters that the heads don't dare go near.
Without the oracle in their possession after the events of the PP, it is unclear what will become of the beasthead giants... I havent finished the last book of the PP yet, it may be explained there.
In actuality, Beasthead is probably more of a PrC for giants than an actual race. The OO doesn't say anything about the other giants of athas (desert giants etc) other than Jo'orsh and Sa'ram were the first giants. I think that may have been from the perspective of the Joorsh and Saram giants... The other giants may have been around long before.
Actually, the point is not to come up with new canon, but to somehow bond the two different views together. Saying that the giants decended from the two dwarves are different from the "real" athasian giants is fine, as it doesn't intrude on either canon. Stating that it was a magical process is bit too involved for what we're trying to do here. They're great ideas, don't get me wrong, and one's I might even use in my own campaigns, but our goal is to explain the canon insofar as it's explained to us. Complicated, I know, but let's keep it simple.
Second:
Their old giant heads are kept in a crystalline pit where they go mad after years of imprisonment. Sometimes the Beastheads throw prisoners into the pit, and the disembodied heads suck the life force out of them. Its also implied that the bodies of the animals are thrown into the pit as well, where they stay at the bottom as skeletal monsters that the heads don't dare go near.
Was that actually in the book?! I don't remember that at all! If it was, I've been missing out on a great opportunity. If it isn't, it's a great idea.
Originally posted by Phoenix_Down
and BTW, the beastheads are essentially the same as normal giants, except that they have learned a ritual that harnessess the power of the dark lens to replace their own heads with the head of an animal companion. Their old giant heads are kept in a crystalline pit where they go mad after years of imprisonment. Sometimes the Beastheads throw prisoners into the pit, and the disembodied heads suck the life force out of them. Its also implied that the bodies of the animals are thrown into the pit as well, where they stay at the bottom as skeletal monsters that the heads don't dare go near.
:OMG!
That frankly seems a little odd, if you don't mind me saying. Its like the old "Head Of Vecna" gag. Those giants must be really not that bright if they think its a good idea to remove their own heads and replace it with someone elses.
Orginally Darksun giants are like the crag giants in The Mind Lords of the last sea box set. Then roughly 6,000 years before the cleansing wars begin the mind lords close off the last sea region thus creating a small refuge of orginal darksun giants.
Sometime between the closing off of the last sea and the begining of the cleansing wars giants develop a process( the same process described to us in the Obsidian Orcale) that lets them swap their heads with the heads of beasts.
Flash forward to just after the theft of the dark lens:
Jor'orsh and Sa'ram convice some giants that they are descendadnts of theirs and that they should revere and guard the odsidian oracle. As time progress Jor'orsh and Sa'ram begin to believe their own little lie because that has a tendancy to happen when lies are told often enough. So the descendants of the 1st batch of giants that Jor'orsh and Sa'ram tricked they are the children of Jor'orsh and Sa'ram. While Jor'orsh and Sa'ram have been telling this lie for so long that they actually believe it themselves and tell it to anybody else that asks.
Hows that? A little more clean than the last one.
The Obsidian Oracle is required for the transformational process that creates Beastheads.
So no Beastheads before the Dark Lens were stolen and left for safekeeping to the giants*.
The book also states that at regular intervals the giants of the islands make war to each other to gain access to the Obsidian Oracle, so they to can become as intelligent as their brethren. Its ''their turn''.
Also when someone says ''Jor'orsh and Sa'ram were the first giants", its actually a giant that says that. You can say that with their low intelligence, giants of our time believe that is when their history began.
Or, that they are saying that Jor'orsh and Sa'ram were the progenitors of their clan, since they were the ones to show them how to use the crystal pit.
* Does it say the king of Giustenal was the member of a race of lion-headed giants, or that only he was lion-headed?
If he's part of a race, then those giants were born lion-headed and did not constitute members of the Beasthead clan, the ones who actually cut the heads off of myriad creatures so as to exchange them for their own.
And as a race, they can predate the Beastheads, who for their existence require the Dark Lens to power the Crystal Pit. (Remember the Beastheads know that if their brethren acquire the Obsidian Oracle in a inter-island conflict that their intelligence will fade away and their children will be born ordinary, stupid giants.)
As such their can be lion-headed giants before the Cleansing Wars, just not Beastheads...
Originally posted by beyowulf
That frankly seems a little odd, if you don't mind me saying. Its like the old "Head Of Vecna" gag. Those giants must be really not that bright if they think its a good idea to remove their own heads and replace it with someone elses.
The Beastheads were visibly more intelligent than their brethren, who were envious of them for it.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Was that actually in the book?! I don't remember that at all! If it was, I've been missing out on a great opportunity. If it isn't, it's a great idea.
Yes that was in it. Its amongst the most vivid scenes in the PP in my recollection. The concept was novel and quite entertaining.
You've been missing out on great stuff! ;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
* Does it say the king of Giustenal was the member of a race of lion-headed giants, or that only he was lion-headed?
If he's part of a race, then those giants were born lion-headed and did not constitute members of the Beasthead clan, the ones who actually cut the heads off of myriad creatures so as to exchange them for thei own.
Yes it does in the City by the silt sea campaign book
Page 6, paragraph 2, 2nd sentance:
"He was a giant, with the head of some strange cat creature, and the people loved him"
Page 8, paragraph 3, sentance 3
"At this time the city was under the rule of Taraskir the Lion, a beast-head giant of great presence and personal power."
So does that mean that we are going with 2 kinds of beast head giants? Natural born and Dark Lens made?
Originally posted by Pennarin
The Beastheads were visibly more intelligent than their brethren, who were envious of them for it.
I am not sure if we understand each other. The Beastheads are smarter because they graft others heads onto their own bodies? But that doesn't make the original heads any smarter than before.
Its like if you mind-swap with someone smarter than you, that doesn't make you smarter. You've just switched bodies.
It makes no sense.
Originally posted by beyowulf
I am not sure if we understand each other. The Beastheads are smarter because they graft others heads onto their own bodies? But that doesn't make the original heads any smarter than before.
Its like if you mind-swap with someone smarter than you, that doesn't make you smarter. You've just switched bodies.
It makes no sense.
Well the original heads were not any smarter, but the new heads controlling the bodies of the giants were smarter.
Originally posted by Oninotaki
Well the original heads were not any smarter, but the new heads controlling the bodies of the giants were smarter.
Well, okay, that makes sense. But I'd think it'd eventually dawn on the giants that swapping head isn't really benefitting them much.
Originally posted by beyowulf
I am not sure if we understand each other. The Beastheads are smarter because they graft others heads onto their own bodies? But that doesn't make the original heads any smarter than before.
Its like if you mind-swap with someone smarter than you, that doesn't make you smarter. You've just switched bodies.
It makes no sense.
The Beastheads are smarter thanks to their proximity to the Dark Lens/Obsidian Oracle. Not because they have animal heads. Thats why the giants start hunting down the heroes in the beginning of CS.
And to clarify, they do have good reason to do it... they gain certain abilities depending on what animal companion they have. One giant had the head of a giant chameleon, which gave her the ability to blend in with her surroundings (not just her head). These aren't your typical "hulk smash" type giants.
Originally posted by beyowulf
I am not sure if we understand each other. The Beastheads are smarter because they graft others heads onto their own bodies? But that doesn't make the original heads any smarter than before.
Its like if you mind-swap with someone smarter than you, that doesn't make you smarter. You've just switched bodies.
It makes no sense.
It never made sense in a real-world fashion, but its a great process idea-wise.
All Denning wrote was that any normal giant could join the Beastheads if they could show they had befriended a big animal or vermin. Then the heads of such giants, some of them were just kids, since the Beastheads did that to their children, were cut off and replaced with the head of the befriended creature (Denning never tells us how). The original giant head and the creature's body were cast into the Crystal Pit were their spirit lay forever imprisonned. As long as the Dark Lens were in proximity to the Crystal Pit, the latter's crystal top would stay energized by the Lens' energies seeping through it, keeping the spirits traped within. When the Lens is taken away, the floating giant heads swarm out to attack their ancient owners.
Denning never tell us how the personality is transfered from the giant's head to the newly grafted creature's head during the transformational process. But he does tell us the Beastheads are more intelligent than ordinary giants. Weither the increase in intelligence is due to the head-switching or the proximity to the Lens, Denning leaves that in the vague, iirc.
So perhaps when another giant clan (one without a head-switching tradition) acquires the Lens in an inter-island war, its members will become more intelligent to.
Originally posted by Pennarin
It never made sense in a real-world fashion, but its a great process idea-wise.
All Denning wrote was that any normal giant could join the Beastheads if they could show they had befriended a big animal or vermin. Then the heads of such giants, some of them were just kids, since the Beastheads did that to their children, were cut off and replaced with the head of the befriended creature (Denning never tells us how). The original giant head and the creature's body were cast into the Crystal Pit were their spirit lay forever imprisonned. As long as the Dark Lens were in proximity to the Crystal Pit, the latter's crystal top would stay energized by the Lens' energies seeping through it, keeping the spirits traped within. When the lens is taken away, the floating giant heads swarm out to attack their ancient owners.
Denning never tell us how the personality is transfered from the giant's head to the newly grafted creature's head during the transformational process. But he does tell us the process makes Beastheads more intelligent than they originally were, making the whole process desirable. Why the increase in intelligence? Beats me.
The two dwarves' names were Jo'orsh and Sa'ram. The names of the two tribes are Joorsh and Saram. (the apostrophes are intentionally left out.) The Saram are the beastheads. The Joorsh are stupid. There are other giants (like Fylo) who are neither Joorsh nor Saram.
OO, Pg 134-135
"Laugh, fools!" the cheif yelled, glaring down the table at the giants who were snickering at him. "If we attack Balic instead of Lybdos, beastheads keep our Oracle locked on Lybdos forever!"
This quieted the crowd instantly, and the giant at the table's far end said, "Nuta's right. It's our turn to keep the Oracle, our turn to get smart, but those Saram beastheads want the oracle to stay with them. They just want to make us Joorsh dumber and dumber- until even the dwarves are smarter than us!"
notes: the Joorsh do not have beastheads, but have images of animals marked on their heads. They also divide themselves up into clans named after animals.
OO, Pg 158
"Are you saying Nal expects you to lead a live bear into his castle?" asked Tithian . . .
Fylo nodded. "Yes. Him say bear must come by itself."
"And then what happens?" inquired the king.
"Magic. They cut bear's head off, then they cut my head off, and we change," said the giant. He lifted his chin proudly, then he added, "after that, Fylo beast-head."
notes: Tithian then tricks Fylo into doubting the process, making him think that the Saram may intend to kill him. It is suggested that the Saram have no such intentions.
OO, Pg 164
"Nothing wrong with bear," Fylo snorted, twisting his head to the side so he could look at her. "Brita just jealous."
This drew a scornful sneer from the lithe sentry. "You might want to be clumsy and rank," she mocked. "But I don't."
Fylo frowned. "What you mean?"
"When you cross Sa'ram's Bridge, you'll change more than your head," She said. "You'll take the spirit of your animal-brother into yourself. From that moment forward, his nature will be yours."
Brita stepped back and waved a hand down her body. Her skin color changed from pale yellow to dark blue, her long tresses darkened to obsidian black, and her beauty became dark and sultry rather than lithe.
Notes: The to-be beastheads treat their companions with a lot of respect. The animal also is supposed to gain a degree of intelligence as well; Bawan Nal addresses the bear in the trade tongue...
OO, Pg 170
In contrast, the children [of the Saram] all had distinctly human heads, though their features were always marred by some gruesome blemish. Less than ten yards, away, a seven-foot toddler was playing in a dust pit. She looked completely normal, save for the trunklike extension dangling off her nose.
Notes: The shortest time any Saram has converted an animal is 15 days.
OO, Pg 179
An immense sheet of rock crystal covered the pit, its edges melting into the surrounding granite with no visible seam. So thin and pellucid was the lid that whenever one of the amorphous forms beneath it slipped up to press against the veneer, Agis saw the gostly features of a face. Usually the visage belonged to a child with a soft chin, fleshy cheeks, and hurt, questioning eyes.
Notes: The name of the pit is The Crystal Pit, according to the chapter title.
OO, Pg 180
The four warriors pitched Fylo's battered body onto the pit. The slab did not shatter or even crack, but merely sagged under the gian'ts great weight. . .
After a moment, Fylo began to sink, slowly passing through the rock crystal. The faces began to swirl around him in blurry, saffron streaks. Then as his shoulders and knees melted through the slab, the half-breed fell free and plunged into the hole. The ghostly countenances streaked into the darkness after him.
OO Pg 181
"This is where we keep our deformed heads after we become true Saram. We must give them playthings so they can amuse themselves, or they will fade away- and us with them," he said, his ears cocked at a cruel angle. "Be assured, the Castoffs will make Fylo pay for his treachery a thousand times over."
Notes: The Castoffs arent malicious, but extremely bored and use any opportunity they can to get close to anything in the Pit, and presumably energy drain them. Also, any living thing on the top of the slab can enter, and maybe some nonliving things. You don't have to be giant.
Also, Sa'ram is headless, indicating that he underwent this procedure more than likely. Jo'orsh is not.
OO, Pg 186-187
"And what magic will keep the Castoffs in their cave after you take the Oracle away?" Nal demanded.
"The same magic that keeps them in the caves when its the Joorsh's turn to keep the lens," Agis countered.
"Mytilene is only a wade of three days away from Lybdos, and even at that distance the magic is weak-ened. Many Castoffs escape and harm my Saram," He said. "If I allow you to take the Oracle farther away, my tribe will be destroyed as surely as if the Dragon took it from us."
I was trying to find the part where it names Jo'orsh and Sa'ram as the first giants, but I couldn't find it. It seems most likely to me that they weren't the first giants, they were the first members of each clan. After all, I would assume Jo'orsh and Sa'ram were both male, so they would need female giants to beget these clans...
That way, the rest of Athasian giants are untouched by this wierdness, but Jo'orsh and Sa'ram still spawned giants.
Does that work for you guys?
Back to the other subject for a moment. Let me get this straight. The heads are removed from the animal and the giant. The giant's memories and personalities stay with the giant's bodies, and he receives an animal's head. Correct? So do the animals memories and personality go into the Giant's head, which is then Castoff?
Originally posted by Oninotaki
Yes it does in the City by the silt sea campaign book
Page 6, paragraph 2, 2nd sentance:
"He was a giant, with the head of some strange cat creature, and the people loved him"
Page 8, paragraph 3, sentance 3
"At this time the city was under the rule of Taraskir the Lion, a beast-head giant of great presence and personal power."
So does that mean that we are going with 2 kinds of beast head giants? Natural born and Dark Lens made?
As near as I can tell, this can't be true... if the PP is to be taken as cannon over City by the Silt Sea. I would assume the PP trumps CBTSS.
Dawn: I would be fine with that, except there being two different kinds of beasthead giant seems kind of silly to me.
Originally posted by Phoenix_Down
I was trying to find the part where it names Jo'orsh and Sa'ram as the first giants, but I couldn't find it. It seems most likely to me that they weren't the first giants, they were the first members of each clan. After all, I would assume Jo'orsh and Sa'ram were both male, so they would need female giants to beget these clans...
Sorry, for my earlier post, I got to edit it only an hour later. My comp/server whatever locked me out of all Boards for some reason. Tried 2 dozen times to no avail until now.
Great job on the quotes Phoenix_Down! :D
So its comfirmed, its the Lens that makes giants more intelligent, not the head-switching process. And I had totally forgotten that bit about the two clans/races being named each for one of the dwarves, and not bot names for one clan/race.
Proposition #1: Jo'orsh and Sa'ram were the first members of each giant clan in that region, which they founded.
Proposition #2: Giants existed before Jo'orsh and Sa'ram became giants themselves.
Proposition #3: ***Is the lion-headed king of Giustenal a member of a race (you know, hundreds upon hundreds of lion-headed giants) or a beasthead (a single individual with the characteristic of having a lion's head)? If the latter, then canon material is even more complicated than I ever thought. If its a race, then it means that before the Saram dabbled in head-switching, there were ordinary giants plus lion-headed giants.***
Anyone care to support or conter Proposition #3?
Or to confirm Propositions #1 and #2?
For Proposition #3, consider this:
Originally posted by Oninotaki
So does that mean that we are going with 2 kinds of beast head giants? Natural born and Dark Lens made?
...and this:
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I think a far better way to go is to say that the giants that specifically live on that island or islands were spawned by Jo'orsh and Sa'ram and are different from "normal" athasian giants of the Desert, Plain, and Beasthead variety.
Originally posted by beyowulf
That works me.
Back to the other subject for a moment. Let me get this straight. The heads are removed from the animal and the giant. The giant's memories and personalities stay with the giant's bodies, and he receives an animal's head. Correct? So do the animals memories and personality go into the Giant's head, which is then Castoff?
"When you cross Sa'ram's Bridge, you'll change more than your head," She said. "You'll take the spirit of your animal-brother into yourself. From that moment forward, his nature will be yours."
As near as I can tell, thats all thats said for the nature of the beasthead giant after the ceremony. The Castoffs are rather typical ghosts... they only want to return to their bodies, are greif-stricken, afraid, and angry. They are very much like children, except for the few adult Castoffs. None are given a name, and its unclear if they even remember their names.
I would assume the Beastheads are an amalgamation of both Giant and Beast, and the Castoffs are like photographs of what the Giants were like as children, and behave like they had been locked in a prison for year after year.
I've maybe an idea about Taraskir. Maybe he was a normal giant and one day or another he wandered around the Pristine Tower (not so far from Giustenal actually-for a giant), was wounded, gained a lion head, etc.
Maybe, this transformation altered his psyche too... because I don't really understand how a giant could control a city as Giustenal... they are pretty stupid normaly, aren't they?
...Idea!
Or Taraskir was a human/elf/what-you-want, former King of Giustenal (or prince) and wandered around The Pristine Tower (negociation, diplomatic mission, visit to Rajaat -they were good friends! ;)) and would have been wounded (tenses?) and would change himseld in this Lionheadgiant...
Convincing? Comments?
Originally posted by Phoenix_Down
Dawn: I would be fine with that, except there being two different kinds of beasthead giant seems kind of silly to me.
Not necessarily. If the natural Beasthead Giants that exist is more intelligent than other giants, than those other giants would be envious of the Beastheads, and would seek to be emulate them. What if Jo'orsh and Sa'ram tricked a particular tribe of regular giants into thinking that if they become like normal Beastheads, they're intelligence would increase.
It might not be the most fun, but it's what I am going with.
Originally posted by beyowulf
Not necessarily. If the natural Beasthead Giants that exist is more intelligent than other giants, than those other giants would be envious of the Beastheads, and would seek to be emulate them. What if Jo'orsh and Sa'ram tricked a particular tribe of regular giants into thinking that if they become like normal Beastheads, they're intelligence would increase.
I like it! I'd say you got everything nailled down convincingly.
Is the door opened for other than lion-headed giants, or were they the only beastheads that existed before the Saram?
Consider there is no evidence for that time period of any other type of beastheads other than lions.
Originally posted by Nefal
Or Taraskir was a human/elf/what-you-want, former King of Giustenal (or prince) and wandered around The Pristine Tower (negociation, diplomatic mission, visit to Rajaat -they were good friends! ;)) and would have been wounded (tenses?) and would change himseld in this Lionheadgiant...
Convincing? Comments?
I always thought the main difference between the Pristine Tower of old and the one that exists now is that the latter causes 'mutations'.
Wouldn't Rajaat have kept in check that side-effect of the Tower during his reign, cause why would he let more new abominations be created while one of his main goals in life is ethnic cleansing?
Sa'ram did not invent the process to become a beasthead. The process had been done by other giants in the past. However, instead of using the dark lens, they used some other recpeticle for their former heads. An obsidian orb, what else? However, thanks to the Oracle, they were able to do it much more efficiently. I find it rather improbable that Sa'ram would come up with such a strange ritual on his own. He BECAME a beasthead giant; he was not the first. All beasthead giants are born ugly and deformed, and the process of becoming a beasthead was a ritual passed down for so long none remember where it came from.
As for intelligence, it isn't a point that needs argued. If a giant comes close to the Dark Lens, he gains intelligence, or if he gets too far from the oracle, he slowly begins losing points of intelligence. It doesn't matter whether the giant is Joorsh, Saram, Desert, Half-Giant, or pickle-headed.
There they [the 2 dwarves] created a safeguard for the Dark Lens in the form of a crystal pit, which proved deadly to any who attempted to retrieve the artifact. Years later Jor’orsh and Sa’ram perished while defending the Dark Lens from evil giants. Soon after, they arose as banshee, and used their new powers to guard the Dark Lens from the eyes of the Dragon and the rest of Rajaat’s champions.
Here it says the dwarves themselves where killed by giants. Possibly this was something to try to correct the afformentioned info cause this is a revised book that came late in the series.
Originally posted by Chronic Alcoholic
Not sure if it had been mentioned here already but to add to the confusion this is what it says in Psionic Artifacts of Athas
There they [the 2 dwarves] created a safeguard for the Dark Lens in the form of a crystal pit, which proved deadly to any who attempted to retrieve the artifact. Years later Jor’orsh and Sa’ram perished while defending the Dark Lens from evil giants. Soon after, they arose as banshee, and used their new powers to guard the Dark Lens from the eyes of the Dragon and the rest of Rajaat’s champions.
Here it says the dwarves themselves where killed by giants. Possibly this was something to try to correct the afformentioned info cause this is a revised book that came late in the series.
Gah! Burn it! Burn it! it's incorrect... it's...
Dark... Lens... not... in... Crys... tal... pit...
*falls over dead*
Here again, I think there is the possiblity to reconcile all material, be it the Obsidian Orcale, the City by the Silt Sea and the Psionic Artifacts of Athas.
Beasthead Giants
Actually, I like the (albeit weird) idea of the replacement of the heads from the obsidian oracle book. As described there, a magical ritual is necessary for the creation of a beasthead giant. Most of the time, this is accomplished at early childhood (15 days after birth or so), though adult giants can be transformed, on rare occasion. Those that are transformed at early childhood grow slighlty shorter than other giants, but become more intelligent, on average, than other giants. They also pick up some character trait of their animal head.
The Myth of Sa'ram and Jo'orsh and the true origins of Giants
Though the Obsidian Oracle discusses this myth in many instances, it only does so through the words and perceptions of the giants. What is clear is that the giants of those island believe that the dwarves are their progenitors, but that has to be only a myth, since other giants existed elsewhere thousands of years before the two dwarven denfenders stole the Dark Lens and hid it there. As for the Banshees, they might even have come to believe in the myth themselves, as time went by.
In reality, both Sa'ram and Jo'orsh were killed by Giants on those very Island. When they rose as banshees, however, and kept raising (if giants tried to destroy them), they eventually became revered by the giants, and the Dark Lens, which they guraded, also became revered.
I would hypothesize that giants were created during the rebirth. Beasthead giants, however, would have been created only later, probably by the discovery of some magical ritual by a Giant of superior intellect (for his race), perhaps even schooled in Magic by Rajaat at the Time of Magic.
That ritual would then have been passed on to other giant tribes much like wizardry is passed on to other wizards. And as wizards, beasthead giants are rare, and their origins are a closely guarded secret.
The Dark Lens
Again, what the Obsidian oracle describes is that the giants believe the oracle is the source of their power. They believe it is what allows the giants to remain beastheaded, and that it makes them more intelligent, and perhaps stronger. Again, this would simply be further myth.
In fact, the Beastheaded giants of the Lybdos had no way to know that they needed the Dark Lens in order to survive as beasthead giants. Indeed, the Dark Lens had been stolen several times before by the Jorsh giant tribe, from what we can understand from the OO, and clearly, the beastheaded giants could not have died of as a result, or else the tribe would have become extinct quite rapidely.
One could argue that the stolen Dark Lens would still have been kept in relatively close proximity on the other giants' island, and therefore would still have allowed the giants to live, but in fact, the beastheads could not have verified this, as the Dark Lens never left the guard of the two giants' clan, until tithian stole it, and we do not know what happens to the giants then. Prior to this event, only beastheaded giants who tried to abandon their tribes and went away could have known whether leaving the Orcale had any effect on them, but if any of them attempted the act, it is not mentionned.
I would guess that the Oracle has in fact nothing to do with maintaining the Beastheaded giants alive.
As for the reat of the Oracle's effect on the giants, this would simply be pure superstition. Surely, when you revere an object, you would feel that you are more powerful, intelligent, or lucky when you have it, and are thus favored by it. The opposite would also be true.
So in short, the Dark Lens had no effect whatsoever on the Giants.
The Cyrstal Pit
This is a very interesting part of the Obsidian Oracle.
I'll discuss the artifact itself a bit further, but I would just point out that this artifact is in no way necessary for the beasthead creation ritual. Indeed, it is merely used as a receptacle to discard the giant heads and animal remains by the giants of Lybdos. Those giants might simply be the only ones to have such a receptacle for it. Also, the crystal pit itself might be the reason those remains rise up as undead.
As such, the Crytal Pit does not preclude any other beastgiants who do not have acces to it to exist.
My story of the Giants of the Obsidian Oracle
The Crytal pit is an artefact that the two dwarven defenders crafted with the aid of the Dark Lens on the island of Lybdos. This pit has the ability to engulf what is placed upon it and traps them. Also, it is likely this artefact and the place where those who are trapped in it are connected to the grey in some ways.
Anyhow, this artefact was constructed as a safeguard and a receptacle for the Dark Lens. When it was completed, the dwarves set the obsidian orcale on it, and it submerged and was thus protected from theft, or so they thought.
Later, giants arrived on the island and found the two old dwarves still guarding the oracle. They slew the dwarves and eventually and soon discovered the properties of the Crystal Pit. The giants threw the dwarves' remains in the Pit.
Not long after, the two dwarves rose as banshees inside the Crystal Pit, next to the oracle. Seeking revenge against those who killed them during their watch, the two banshees found that the Dark Lens energy, which they had learn to use to create the Crytal Pit, could be similarily used to breach it. (in fact, we know from the novel that breaching the pit is possible with more mundane means) Exiting the Crystal Pit, the banshees rose against the Giants.
Some giants were killed outright, and some fled to a close island, but other quickly sumbitted to the banshees, and the banshees spared them, for their true focus was to slay the dragon, and guard the Dark Lens, and the submitting giants were no longer seen as relevant, nor as a threat. The two banshees stayed off their attack, and took the Dark Lens to a nearby cave.
The giants of Lybdos came to create some myth surrounding the banshees and the Dark Lens, which would be the basis for their later myth.
Later, the giants of Lybdos might have been joined by a small group of beastheads, learning the process for themselves. The giants used the Crystal Pit as a means to dispose of the animal carcasses and their former heads, since they gave the artefact some great cultural importance. However, the properties of the Crtyal Pit had the effect of raising the heads of the giants as undead spirits, caught and tormented eternally, or until the Heroes of Tyr managed to breach it.
Anyhow, the later years saw conflicts between both giant tribes, until in one conflict the Dark Lens was discovered by the ''normal'' giants. The banshees did not attack, however, perceiving the giants as submitted giants. When the giants took the Dark Lens, they merely followed them unto the other island, and materialised there later on. The giants there were afraid, but when they saw that the banshees were not aggressive, they became fascinated by the two undead, and by the Dark Lens.
However, the remnants of the other tribe quickly discrovered the Dark Lens had been stolen, and they organised to get it back. They did so, and the same thing happenned over and over again in the centuries that followed, and in that time the myth of the Obsidian Oracle developped to what it had become when the Heroes of Tyr arrived on those islands.
What do you think?
I think this reconciles all sources into a unified story. It keeps the flavor of the OO, even thought the beliefs of the giants are just that, and allows for other giants to exist in other parts of the world, just as the D&D material of Dark Sun suggests.
Any thoughts?