Was a guy, but when Ravenloft's powers pulled him in, they switched genders on him
As for the rest of the Kalid-Ma contradictions, see my monster post on:
this thread
The bit about how to bring him back is more of an opinion than a contradiction, so we'll leave that to everyone's imagination.
However, since the debate here is about making him a guy or a girl, I'd go for a guy, since DS2e and Ravenloft both used that gender for him. Also, in Ravenloft, Thakok-An, Kalid-Ma's head templar, and the reason why the whole city was taken to the demi-plane of dread, was that she was in love with him.
Anyways, since here there are no ways to reconcile both versions, short of making Kalid-Ma a Hermaphrodite ;), we have to choose a gender. Now, if you want to maintain the ideas of Ravenloft, as I did, it is easier to make him a man.
And in any case, where does it state he is a she?
I repeat: its only a suggestion.
What I mean is that the problem with Kalid-Ma is when you consider Ravenloft material. As a DS player I shouldn't have to buy from that setting.
When the Mists or spelljaming vessels are involved, its kind of outside DS's magisterium, IMO.
I dunno concerning other things like the elemental druid-like beings from Planescape MCIII, since they come from elemental planes.
Of course if your intention is to cover every inconsistency, no matter where it comes from, then my bad.
Mike, I suggest we don't dabble with contradictary material when it comes solely from another setting. Or at least that the conclusions are not made official, but stay at a consensus level.
That's all these brain drippings are though are general consesus reports geared to come to a conclusion that represent either attempts to pick a definate source (when two sources conflict), or to come up with thoughtful ways to smooth over those inconsistancies. This is just the fans speaking out here and brainstorming. Its not as if anyone here is a flavor nazi whose going to stab you in the face for conflicting with the potential resolutions (well, I might, but not for the reason stated ;)).
Kalid-Ma is also a him in all DS material I have found on him, so I go for a him.
I don't have issue with keeping him a female and having another female in love with her, or making Thakok-An a male and keeping Kalid-Ma a male as well and making him in love with Kalid-Ma, love is love as far as I'm concerned, gender doesn't change that, and don't find a major problem with that.
However, for consistency sake, Kalid-Ma is male, that simple.
But yeah, this is an easy one.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I don't have issue with keeping him a female and having another female in love with her, or making Thakok-An a male and keeping Kalid-Ma a male as well and making him in love with Kalid-Ma, love is love as far as I'm concerned, gender doesn't change that, and don't find a major problem with that.
Well, look who got their gay and lesbian association card... :D
Seriously, having no problems with this myself, having had one gay roommate and having now 1 gay collegue at work, I just thought it was more likely Thakok-An would have been in love with a male.
Anyways, I think we'll all agree on Kalid-Ma being a male.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Anyways, I think we'll all agree on Kalid-Ma being a male.
Actually we won't. I believe it should be a her, regardless of miss stinted ravenloft high templar. If memory serves, Kalid-Ma in Merchant House of Amketch, the first source I can think of that's Dark Sun, has it as a sorcerer-queen. I dunno how this matches up to ravenloft as to which came first, but there you have that.
Assuming all the champions came about at the same time, I would think they'd share some of the naming conventions or something. Granted this is flimsy and crappy, but in light of Abalache-Re and Lalali-Puy, I always felt that Kalid-Ma seemed more a girly name. Course there's sielba, but let's ignore that for a moment. It's nice to think of KM as a woman, if only to add a little gender diversity to the champions.
la la la
nick
Ok. Lets just go with a Sorcerer-Transvestite
*sings*
I'm just a Sorcerer-Transvestite . . . from trans - sexual . . . Transyl - vania ah ah . . .
DM Book
Part One: Overview of the Adventure
"The armories of the vanished sorcerer-KING of Kalidnay....."
/me Bzzzzts Cap'n Nick :D
Told you this one was an easy one. ;)
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Merchant House of Amketch
DM Book
Part One: Overview of the Adventure
"The armories of the vanished sorcerer-KING of Kalidnay....."
/me Bzzzzts Cap'n Nick :D
Told you this one was an easy one. ;)
wow that adventure was really poorly written.
not only does it reference Dune Trader for more information on the house of Amketch (which isnt mentioned in DT) but it seems to not be able to agree on Kalid-Ma's gender.
Part Four: The Beetle Trade
" Ages ago the sorcerer-queen Kalid-Ma developed the creatures as a biological weapon to use against her enemies. It seems likely that she journeyed to another plane where they are common and contrived a way to capture"....blah, blah, blah there are about 5 other feminine pronouns and such in the next few paragraphs.
still such an easy one?
i personally think that he/she for reasons unfathomable to us, masqueraded as the opposed gender and perpetuated that rumor.
We know from some novels, including the pentad and RaFoaDK that people in a city ruled by a sorcerer-monarch could go years...even lifetimes without having seen them. The same is likely true for the lower ranked templars. With uncertainty of the monarchs gender people in varius regions would simply grow accustumed to using one or another gendered pronoun.
i dont believe that either description of Thakok-An ever mentions that she had seen her leige prior to going to RL. in which case the body there could simply be a manifestation of what she wants most: her "love". The Dark Powers do like to torment.
After all to them, it doesnt matter at all what gender the real Kalid-ma was, only that Thakok-An believed he was a male.
ashy
Originally posted by ashramry
The Dark Powers do like to torment.
After all to them, it doesnt matter at all what gender the real Kalid-ma was, only that Thakok-An believed he was a male.
Or the mere fact that she was in love with it.
Doesn't matter what gender it is.
I also stand corrected btw, forgot to mention that earlier, heh.
Damn inconsistencies, and poor editors.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Or the mere fact that she was in love with it.
Doesn't matter what gender it is.
Maybe He/She/It just ran afoul of a few too many Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity's
LOL, Played in a game where one of the paty members was cursed by such an object and turned Female. So, She adopted a new name and a new identity for everyone outside of the party. Later, through Divine intervention (yeah, the DM had a lot of personal appearances by the Gods) She was given an item that let her assume Male for like 3 times a day for an hour or 2 each use, and thus did we get the dual identitied Everic the Blue and Telpaya his female alter ego, depending on where we were, and who the NPCs were used to dealing with affected his choice of identity for the hour. It was a great aspect of that game.
Originally posted by ashramry
wow that adventure was really poorly written.
not only does it reference Dune Trader for more information on the house of Amketch (which isnt mentioned in DT) but it seems to not be able to agree on Kalid-Ma's gender.
Part Four: The Beetle Trade
" Ages ago the sorcerer-queen Kalid-Ma developed the creatures as a biological weapon to use against her enemies. It seems likely that she journeyed to another plane where they are common and contrived a way to capture"....blah, blah, blah there are about 5 other feminine pronouns and such in the next few paragraphs.
ashy
Booyah! Vindication, I was sure it said queen in that module! Go nick go!
Yeah, I still like feminine Kalid-Ma better. Anyway . . .
nick!
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
Booyah! Vindication, I was sure it said queen in that module! Go nick go!
Yeah, I still like feminine Kalid-Ma better. Anyway . . .
nick!
Me too, I like better with Kalid-Ma being a female, sorcerer-QUEEN. I just feel, it would be more interesting for the setting.
d lay good money that the intent of his name was to be close to Amon-Ra, the Sun God of Egypt, more commonly called Ra.
:P
And if i remember properly, Amon-Ra was actually a god, and never a pharoh. The only references i can find to Amon-Ra are that it is simply the full name of Ra, even the database of egyptian historical rulers does not list him.
ashy
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, the name"Kalid-Ma" has a more feminine feel to it when looked at it from a Latin perspective. However, there is a historical reference of a King who was worshiped like a god - Amon-Ra, from Egypt. This name is, IMHO, the closest to Kalid-Ma's name. As such, Amon-Ra was very much a male King in egypt, and has an "a" at the end of his name, just like Kalid-Ma. So, while first appearances, especially from people who speak latin-based languages (even English, with it's strong latin influences), it may seem that Kalid-Ma was male, but I'
d lay good money that the intent of his name was to be close to Amon-Ra, the Sun God of Egypt, more commonly called Ra.
Interesting. Then what of Abalach-Re?
Originally posted by Pennarin
Interesting. Then what of Abalach-Re?
Hum, you're all trying to confuse me!!
Stop it! Stop it!
Ahhh!!!:headexplo
Originally posted by ashramry
And if i remember properly, Amon-Ra was actually a god, and never a pharoh. The only references i can find to Amon-Ra are that it is simply the full name of Ra, even the database of egyptian historical rulers does not list him.
ashy
Amon-ra was the last king of the Egyptian area before they started to be refered to as Pharoh (sp?). It actually was something most likely instituted by his children, in roder to get the people to worship their father, or something (specilation). So, he wouldn't have been a Pharoh. I could be wrong, buit I had done some deep research on egyptian mythology, and history before. It's been a while tho.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Interesting. Then what of Abalach-Re?
Note the "Re" instead of "Ra". The change of a single letter at the end of a word can frequently represent a change in gender. they (Kalid-Ma and Abalache-re) probably both gave themselves names based on the same language. But I'm over-analzing it.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Amon-ra was the last king of the Egyptian area before they started to be refered to as Pharoh (sp?). It actually was something most likely instituted by his children, in roder to get the people to worship their father, or something (specilation). So, he wouldn't have been a Pharoh. I could be wrong, buit I had done some deep research on egyptian mythology, and history before. It's been a while tho.
hrm, no.
the term pharaoh was always used in ancient Egypt, right out of Herodotus's first account of the black land, which is the earliest we have of recorded history.
if you can find a mention of this guy in the list of ancient egyptian rulers i'll concede the point.
http://www.touregypt.net/kings.htm
also, the differences of spelling between "Re" and "Ra" in english at least, had much to do with the transliteration from the ancient greek, and there is no gender change implied. Even today the spelling of the words "Re" amd "Ra" are still pronounced "Ra" and both refer to the mythical sun god. Whether this holds true in a possibly ficticious language from Athas is another matter. But it should be noted that for most existing languages in the real world the letter or sylable "a" is most often assciated with the feminine gender for words, whereas "e" tends to flipflop.
ashy
Originally posted by ashramry
hrm, no.
the term pharaoh was always used in ancient Egypt, right out of Herodotus's first account of the black land, which is the earliest we have of recorded history.
if you can find a mention of this guy in the list of ancient egyptian rulers i'll concede the point.
http://www.touregypt.net/kings.htm
I'll concede this point as it isn't worth the effort to go digging through the dozens of books I did to prove my point. Fine, so he was a god. Doesn't really change my point one iota, one way or the other.
also, the differences of spelling between "Re" and "Ra" in english at least, had much to do with the transliteration from the ancient greek, and there is no gender change implied. Even today the spelling of the words "Re" amd "Ra" are still pronounced "Ra" and both refer to the mythical sun god.
And I was referring to the language that possibly Kalid-Ma and Abalach-re used to come up with their own names, not actual, real, Ancient Egyptian. And I was referring to the difference of "Ma" vs. "Re".
Whether this holds true in a possibly ficticious language from Athas is another matter. But it should be noted that for most existing languages in the real world the letter or sylable "a" is most often assciated with the feminine gender for words, whereas "e" tends to flipflop.
And that is based off of the Latin suffixes, which I already mentioned in an earlier statement (and, I believe, it stems back a bit further than Latin, but I digress). What I was saying is that it is very possible that in an Athasian language, which is a fictional world, one that is vastly different than our own, that the similarities of the two names Abalach-Re and Kalid-Ma might be because they came from the same language (after all, the Champions basically renamed themselves when they became Sorcerer-Monarchs), however that in that language, the "a" suffix refers to a male gender, while the "e" refers to a female one. Is this absolute truth? No, it's speculation on my part. Sure, there's a little bit of a basis in reality with comparisons to natural languages, with a few differences, however, it was just a thought.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
What I was saying is that it is very possible that in an Athasian language, which is a fictional world, one that is vastly different than our own, that the similarities of the two names Abalach-Re and Kalid-Ma might be because they came from the same language (after all, the Champions basically renamed themselves when they became Sorcerer-Monarchs), however that in that language, the "a" suffix refers to a male gender, while the "e" refers to a female one.
Just my thought. ;)