I can see the symbolic value of the "swap", but I still can't understand why it is necessary. In the novels it says that Astinus would be there recording history until the end of time, and as far as I know the AoM isn't the end of time.
I hope that the reasons behind Astinus' disappearance and the appearance of the Herald will be explored more deeply in future novels and gaming supplements, and they had better make the Herald a darn interesting character if I am to view him as more than a poor replacement for Astinus.
Does anyone else have any views on this matter
Another theory is that Astinus is the avatar of Gilean, and when the world of Krynn was stolen by Takhisis, his avatar remained behind.
A third theory posed by the esteemed Cam Banks is that Astinus was plucked from time, and brought back to the beginning of time to become Gilean. After all, Gilean came from "beyond", so this fits.
Anyone else have any theories, or want to expand on any of this?
Of course Sebastius is only Astinus' brother if you buy into the Astinus is Gilean's son theory.
Either way I'l like to get some things straight about Astinus and the Herald one of these days. Whether the Herald is The Library Incarnate, Astinus gone through some strange change due to Gilean's absense, or some kid from Solace which I keep hearing about.
~~~
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
One theory is that the Herald is Astinus, just without his memories of who he is (although he recalls all of Krynn's history).
Another theory is that Astinus is the avatar of Gilean, and when the world of Krynn was stolen by Takhisis, his avatar remained behind.
A third theory posed by the esteemed Cam Banks is that Astinus was plucked from time, and brought back to the beginning of time to become Gilean. After all, Gilean came from "beyond", so this fits.
Anyone else have any theories, or want to expand on any of this?
Those are all good theories, but I would like to point out a few inconsistencies.
If the first theory is correct, then he has not only forgotten who he is, but also the very meaning of his existence. Astinus woved to never affect the flow of the River of time, and as the Herald he certainly is affecting it. He must have somehow been granted eternal life, and I do not believe mortal magic is capable of this. Therefore it would have to be the work of gods. Seeing that Astinus is certainly not fullfilling his duties in this, the fifth age, wouldn't the gods remove him from the face of Krynn upon their return.
If the second theory holds true, why hasn't Astinus returned with the return of the gods. I do believe the gods are trying to get on good terms with mortals again, and making sure an age-old prophecy is fulfilled is a good start.
As to the third theory. If Astinus went back in time to become Gilean, isn't he by doing that also signalling that the end of the world is just around the corner. Astinus would be there to record history until the end of time it says in the novels.
To all good things, there must be an end. Their stories have been told, and it is time, I think, for new tales, and new stories.
Originally posted by Kolakuba
As to the third theory. If Astinus went back in time to become Gilean, isn't he by doing that also signalling that the end of the world is just around the corner. Astinus would be there to record history until the end of time it says in the novels.
Krynn was pulled from the River of Time when Takhisis stole the world. Effectively, the end of the Chaos War also, in a way, signaled the end of time.
~~~
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Krynn was pulled from the River of Time when Takhisis stole the world. Effectively, the end of the Chaos War also, in a way, signaled the end of time.
I still haven't actually read the war of souls trilogy, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tas kind of stitch time together again in that trilogy. Doesn't the River of Time once again run its usual course. If not, haven't the gods lost control over their own world in this age? And if "the end of time" came at the end of the chaos war, then how can Zivilyn see past, future and present when in reality "time" doesn't exist anymore?
~~~
)Anyway...at the time, I think that the 5th Age team probably thought like everyone else did (especially after the "revelation" in DoSF in the Abyss) that Astinus was infact Gilean. This meant, with the gods gone...Astinus can no longer be around either.
So...I like the choice that the 5th Age team came up with...a replacement...but one that is absolutely nothing like Astinus...but still does the job, kinda.
To replace Astinus with another timeless bookworm would have been kinda cheesy, I think. We had Bertrem and the Asthetics(sp) to take care of the Library. (and that almost went a little overboard with Bertrem's Age)I thought the Herald made a nice addition. But now that Age of Mortals, Part One is over...I think some resolution on his character would be nice.
~~~
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
A third theory posed by the esteemed Cam Banks is that Astinus was plucked from time, and brought back to the beginning of time to become Gilean. After all, Gilean came from "beyond", so this fits.
This is actually one of those theories which several people have come up with independently based on the evidence in the books, so it's not unique to me. My own take on it is that the High God brought Gilean into being as a paradox, saying that he needed to ensure that he would be able to exist but not specifically giving him any clues.
As a god, he had already forgotten his mortal life, so he engineered Astinus to be his mortal self, giving him thousands and thousands of years of experience and understanding before pulling him from the River of Time immediately before Krynn was stolen and sending him back. Astinus becomes Gilean, Gilean continues on. And, because he is now living through a period in which he, as a mortal, never previously existed, he's just as keen to know what's going on in the world as anybody else (and lacks the same omnipotence as his brother and sister gods).
I've seen something like this in a Doctor Who novel, also, so like I said - it's a cunning and appropriate piece of cliche that seems appropriate!
Cheers,
Cam
Let's say that Gilean needed a mortal form through which to work. Astinus comes along as a mortal who exemplifies all that is Gilean, and so Gilean uses him as a vessel through which to do his works. There's a connection between god and mortal, closer than what any cleric has to their deity.
Astinus does his thing at the end of the Chaos War where he disappears with the knowledge of the Libary of Palanthas. He figures the world is going to end, as the River of Time appeared to stop at the end of the Chaos War.
When the world is stolen, so too is Gilean's divine connection to Astinus, leaving him a husk of his former self, without his own memories but with the memories of the world.
I know, there's plenty of holes in that theory, and I'm not buying it either. Still, it is an interesting concept.
Oh, and reason the Herald looks different than Astinus? Because beforehand, Astinus was kept alive by the focused divine magic of Gilean. Now, he is kept alive by the ambient power of the Heart(yes, I know he's an arcane caster, but I'm changing it in my game, he makes more sense to me as a divine caster), which in turn changed his appearance. Cheesy, I know, but I'd like to think that it works. And of course, these are just conept notes now, I will write somethnig more detailed when I get there.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
A third theory posed by the esteemed Cam Banks is that Astinus was plucked from time, and brought back to the beginning of time to become Gilean. After all, Gilean came from "beyond", so this fits.
I do believe it was Zivilyn who came from beyond, and Gilean was one of the high gods children. But for all I know........(checking my sources)
Aaah, here it is. Refer to page 32 of DoSF and you will see. It states that when the gods where to create the world, Gilean conferred with Zivilyn who had come from beyond.
I'm sorry if I sound overly critic, but I'm just searching for the most logical explanation there is, so as to better understand Krynn. Until now I have greatly appreciated all the feedback given on this thread. Please offer more suggestions....
Originally posted by Cam Banks
As a god, he had already forgotten his mortal life, so he engineered Astinus to be his mortal self, giving him thousands and thousands of years of experience and understanding before pulling him from the River of Time immediately before Krynn was stolen and sending him back. Astinus becomes Gilean, Gilean continues on. And, because he is now living through a period in which he, as a mortal, never previously existed, he's just as keen to know what's going on in the world as anybody else (and lacks the same omnipotence as his brother and sister gods).
That is a brilliant theory. I'm not looking forward to explaining this to some of my more dim witted players, but thank you very much. That really helps me a lot.;)
Originally posted by Kolakuba
I do believe it was Zivilyn who came from beyond, and Gilean was one of the high gods children. But for all I know........(checking my sources)
Aaah, here it is. Refer to page 32 of DoSF and you will see. It states that when the gods where to create the world, Gilean conferred with Zivilyn who had come from beyond.
I'm sorry if I sound overly critic, but I'm just searching for the most logical explanation there is, so as to better understand Krynn. Until now I have greatly appreciated all the feedback given on this thread. Please offer more suggestions....
I don't have the exact source available right now, but Gilean comes from beyond when the heads of the pantheon come together.
It is possible that Zivilyn did as well.
Originally posted by kendernbabe
6 of the 7 Neutral deities came from beyond.
No 'cause Lunitari would be Native to Krynn as well.
Gilean was one of the three original children of the High God, together with Paladine and Taky.
Originally posted by Kolakuba
Yes, I do believe Lunitari was the child of Gilean if I am correct. During the all-sants war the three gods of magic refused to take sides, and instead stayed loyal to each other and to magic.
That's not quite right either.
Although there might be a reference to this somewhere (and even one in the DLCS) most sources (including the DLCS at least twice...yes the DLCS contradicts itself on this) state that the Gods of Magic were conceived at the end of the All Saints War. They were supposed to be the children of all three factions...children that would be closer to the mortals (which the All Saints War was fought over)...and they would be part of a pledge to never wage war on Krynn again.
Yeah...that didn't last long.
I should point out that I believe "beyond" and Chaos to be one and the same. Chaos was the formless, vast proto-universal mass that the High God formed Creation out of. It gave substance to the High God's ineffable will, and was the source of the gods as well. This is why Chaos is known as the Father of All and Nothing - he's the beyond that Paladine, Takhisis et al were pulled from/through.
Cheers,
Cam
That being said though...I kinda like the idea of Chaos not actually being the "physical" manifestation of chaos, or "entity" of chaos. I liked the idea of him being a banished deity, Ionthas (before the Balance was established). Banished into the Void of Chaos (as described in the DLCS Cosmology). After being in there for millenia, he became infused with the chaos energies of the Void...and probably more than a little crazy (I think this is what would have happend to Raistlin if Tas hadn't changed the future). Then when Reorx came to the Void to capture some of that energy into the Greygem...Ionthas (now believing he is the sentient manifestation of chaos, which really makes no logical sense anyway) saw his means of escape from the Void...and the means of his revenge.
Unfortunately, it appears that the Appendix has been ignored entirely. I know alot of it was contradictory...but I thought it did well in explaining...or at least giving a good foudation...for the origins of Chaos, the deity. So...this little explination on Chaos, the Void, Ionthas, etc. will have to stay in my little version of DL, I guess.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yeah...that didn't last long.
What, the pledge not to wage war on Krynn again? I say you're wrong.
When was the last time the gods themselves battled on Krynn instead of using dragons and mortals to do so for them?
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
What, the pledge not to wage war on Krynn again? I say you're wrong.
When was the last time the gods themselves battled on Krynn instead of using dragons and mortals to do so for them?
Well, Takhisis appeared on Krynn in all her majesty and faught Huma. So she, at least, broke the agreement (Paladine didn't and I don't think any of the other did either). After her defeat by Huma there is a couple of thousand years where she can't appear on Krynn. Now since the agreement was made at the end of the All Saints War, there is some time that passes before Tak starts appearing in her different forms (5 headed dragon, temptress, dark warrior)...so it seems she at least kept it for a little while until she figured that it wasn't working.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
What, the pledge not to wage war on Krynn again? I say you're wrong.
When was the last time the gods themselves battled on Krynn instead of using dragons and mortals to do so for them?
It's exactly that kind of "loop hole" thinking that has destroyed Ansalon time and time again.
But...certain Gods betrayed that pledge litterally, too. The Third Dragon War, for instance. Takhisis and Morgion manifested in the Material Plane to wage war. And Takhisis tried it again in the War of the Lance....but couldn't succeed. Then she tried it again during the War of Souls.
So it really wasn't so much of a pledge as it was a ploy for some gods. :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
But...certain Gods betrayed that pledge litterally, too. The Third Dragon War, for instance. Takhisis and Morgion manifested in the Material Plane to wage war.
Takhisis emerged when Galan Dracos opened the hole to the Abyss. To my knowledge, I don't believe Morgion ever materialized. Huma dreamed of him and the Bronze Tower, and he had plenty of clerics spreading disease. But no physical manifestation, IIRC.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Takhisis emerged when Galan Dracos opened the hole to the Abyss. To my knowledge, I don't believe Morgion ever materialized. Huma dreamed of him and the Bronze Tower, and he had plenty of clerics spreading disease. But no physical manifestation, IIRC.
Oh, okay. I thought the Bronze Tower scene was something that acutally took place, not dreamt.
But since you definately have read and studied it much more recently than I have, I will bow to your knowledge.
:D
Originally posted by Brimstone
Oh, okay. I thought the Bronze Tower scene was something that acutally took place, not dreamt.
But since you definately have read and studied it much more recently than I have, I will bow to your knowledge.
:D
Lol!
Yep, that was all a dream sequence. Huma sees the Bronze Tower in the Abyss.
The Bronze Tower scene will be in an upcoming issue of the comic.