Dwarves have beards
Half-giants are just as strong as muls and only 7 or 8 feet tall
Pterrans now have a wisdom penatly, and have a higher natural armor bonus than thri-kreen
Elves are not any taller than their standard D&D counter parts
All humans eventually get up to 4th level psionics
Instead of being loners, druids are now highly organized
Elans are just strange in that they are made from humans who have to apply to become one. I dont see anybody applying to become anything in darksun thats not a class or template.
Bards are completely unchanged which means no poison at all
Paladins get their powers from from faith in goodness and law. Evey other class gets their spells from socerer kings, elemental lords, or defiling. I just dont like the fact that every other class gets their spells from an actual tangible source and paladins dont.
Sorcerers try to pass themselves off as psions or wizards(!?) to avoid persecution
Thats it so far, off to read the equipment chapter......
But seriously, how many more threads of this do we need? Isn't three or four enough? Heh.
;)
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Oy e vay.
But seriously, how many more threads of this do we need? Isn't three or four enough? Heh.
;)
Sorry its just none of them seemed to have actually seen the contents of the actual issue. I thought all the other ones where based on preview's. Sorry.
That being said time for a quick rundown of what I do and don't like from the equipment chapter.
Weapon material types: Wood, Stone, Bone, Bronze, Iron, & blood obsidian(but no regular obsidian) I like it except for the lack of obsidian.
Darksun Weapons: Oh the few dark sun weapons that are mentioned only 3 are given new stats and the rest are just equated to regular D&D Weapons. Im 50/50 on this one. I think I may have liked it had they actual listed all the traditional Darksun weapons and given their standard D&D equivelent(sp?).
Armor: 8 light armors(padded,bark,bone,cord,leather,wood, studded leather, leather scale) 3 medium armors (shell, hide, bronze breast plate) 2 heavy armors ( chitin, Bronze halfplate)
I like all of it except for the 2 bronze armors.
Cost of Iron: All iron weapons cost 10 times the gold piece cost in ceramics while all armor only costs 5 times the gold piece cost in ceramics. Its too low of a cost for my taste and its not uniform so I dont like it.
Shields are just fine and they even threw in a cool new non-magical buckler! I like :D
All in all it looks like I will be doing a mix of Burnt World Darksun(roughly 80%) and Dragon Darksun(roughly 20%) with my a couple of things that I have to work out on my own. Although I must admit that I can't help but think that they WOTC really dropped the ball on this one
Well, done with waiting - off to finish my conversion I go then!
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
[b]Oh god... and to think I was looking forward to this... :sad:
Deja'vu....
off! 
Isn't Dave Noonan David Noonan? Who co-wrote Unearthed Arcana and wrote Complete Divine?
How can someone who writes official WotC material that is good write something so crappy and far from the original material, and one who was a writer of UA, which is a bunch of alternate D&D rules and ways to go, write something so close to core D&D that there's no point not just playing in Anauroch or something!
Man...
In light of this new preview, I just want to salute athas.org's endeavors in this conversion. I might not agree on many things, and for most of those I thought that it was because of contraints of following D&D established parametres, or wanting not to diverge too much from it, but still, I now see that athas.org at least made the effort to maintain the athasian flavor to their conversion, even when they were keeping to close to D&D for my tastes.
So in short, BIG dissapointment.
Originally posted by Oninotaki
I feel that I should make a clarification about the elf thing. Elves are described as being taller and leaner than what would be possible for humans. However the little rules table that tells us how to generate the heights and weights of darksun characters lacks an entry for elves, so them being the same height as regular elves might just be an error.
Ooooooooooh!
Well darn, that just changes my whole appreciation of the conversion...
;)
"The setting is evocative as ever, but many of the specific mechanical elements(such as half-giants who always got d12s for hit dice and defiler wizards as a seperate class from preservers) don't work with the new D&D rules."
Half-giants that always get d12s? When did I miss that :whatsthis Thats the kind of stuff that just makes it seem like this guy didnt pay much attention to how darksun used to be.
On the other hand I think I may change all my darksun giants (half-giants included) to roll d12s:D
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Man, I'm actually
Isn't Dave Noonan David Noonan? Who co-wrote Unearthed Arcana and wrote Complete Divine?
Deja'vu...
How can someone who writes official WotC material that is good write something so crappy and far from the original material, and one who was a writer of UA, which is a bunch of alternate D&D rules and ways to go, write something so close to core D&D that there's no point not just playing in Anauroch or something!
Man...
That's kinda ironic...originally, before I knew much about DS, I considered plopping it down inside the Sea of Dust or the Anauroch...;)
But as I understand it, the design philosophy behind much of 3.Xe is a "toolbox" mentality...thus, in this case, if there is a conflict between DS & 3e, 3e rules out. Thus bearded dwarves and average-sized elves. Etc.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
That's kinda ironic...originally, before I knew much about DS, I considered plopping it down inside the Sea of Dust or the Anauroch...;)
You're not the only one...
Back in 96-98 era of my 2e days, I found someone that had a site up explaining on how they did just that and made Eliminster get his arse handed to him by Borys, or maybe it was the other way around.
But as I understand it, the design philosophy behind much of 3.Xe is a "toolbox" mentality...thus, in this case, if there is a conflict between DS & 3e, 3e rules out. Thus bearded dwarves and average-sized elves. Etc.
Freak that.
Besides, what does bearded dwarves and average-sized elves have to do with the rules of D&D 3ex? Answer? Absolutely nothing!
I seriously think this was just a ploy to make it as 3ex happy as possible and allow it to be used in any campaign setting/world out there.
Speaking of that lynch mob again...
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
You're not the only one...
Back in 96-98 era of my 2e days, I found someone that had a site up explaining on how they did just that and made Eliminster get his arse handed to him by Borys, or maybe it was the other way around.
Heh, at least I'm not the only insane one
Freak that.
Besides, what does bearded dwarves and average-sized elves have to do with the rules of D&D 3ex? Answer? Absolutely nothing!
I seriously think this was just a ploy to make it as 3ex happy as possible and allow it to be used in any campaign setting/world out there.
Speaking of that lynch mob again...
LOL! Well, now that I think about it, a yellow sun (the cover) would fit into making it more like something that could be dumped into the middle of the Sea of Dust (for example). So you're probably not far from the mark...;)
Can I at least watch the lynch mob? I've never seen one before...sounds like fun...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Can I at least watch the lynch mob? I've never seen one before...sounds like fun...
*cough* Spider Moon *cough* ;)
I'm looking forward to seeing what was done in Dragon and Dungeon. I figured some things would be tackled in certain ways (i.e. clerics and elemental domains). I'm pleased with some things, disappointed in others (i.e. half-giants).
From what I've heard, I imagine I might do a hybrid of Paizo rules and Athas.org's materials if I were to run DS. *shrugs*
Kudos from me as well on the great job that Athas.org has done. The more I read of it, the more I like it.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
*cough* Spider Moon *cough* ;)
Ya, but I was too busy trying to keep everyone from killing each other to enjoy the lynch mob!!
This time, I intend to just kick back, grab a gallon of popcorn, and watch the fun I can't blame him though, no serious, self proclaimed, DS fan could have put out this garbage without someone else putting a gun to his head or threatening to take his job away from him.
So I suspect WotC is mostly behind this, I could be wrong though.
Boo, WotC, Boo!
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Ya, but I was too busy trying to keep everyone from killing each other to enjoy the lynch mob!!
Have any of you SJ guys ever thrown someone on that planet full of Tarrasque?
Just curious how noble they really were when they are a cohesive unit, instead of insane and seperated.
Long un-live the Athasian Undead Tarrasque!
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
And we shall dub it the David Noonan lynch mob.
I can't blame him though, no serious, self proclaimed, DS fan could have put out this garbage without someone else putting a gun to his head or threatening to take his job away from him.
So I suspect WotC is mostly behind this, I could be wrong though.
Boo, WotC, Boo!
I second that...
Poor guy... I wonder if he'll ever come on these boards, and how depressed he'll be... anyways...
But man... how the hell did he manage that! I mean, athas.org didn't make everyone happy, but at least many here are! Even my stuff got some praise! But we've yet to see one positive comment about that stuff...
Well, lets wait 'til everybody has it in their hands...
...and then we'll trash it properly... ;)
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Have any of you SJ guys ever thrown someone on that planet full of Tarrasque?
No, but this DL/SJ fan moved Lord Soth's pet tarrasque from DL16 World of Krynn to Erik Mona's basement. :D
Did I say that aloud? :embarrass
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
No, but this DL/SJ fan moved Lord Soth's pet tarrasque from DL16 World of Krynn to Erik Mona's basement. :D
Did I say that aloud? :embarrass
I guess my next issues of Dragon and Dungeon will probably be late then.
Speaking of Eric, he was checking the boards out a few days back.
Wonder if he is scared yet? heh
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Have any of you SJ guys ever thrown someone on that planet full of Tarrasque?
Just curious how noble they really were when they are a cohesive unit, instead of insane and seperated.
Love un-live the Athasian Undead Tarrasque!
:bounce:
Wanted to, but sadly no.
To be honest, you guys have my sympathies. I know how it goes; the infamous SotSM really came off as more a D&D version of Space, 1889 rather than SJ. Similar ideas (wooden ships in space), but very different in implimentation.
From what I understand, this conversion sounds very similiar to what happened in SotSM. Details are lost to the rules for the sake of making DS generic as a "dump anywhere desert setting."
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I guess my next issues of Dragon and Dungeon will probably be late then.
Speaking of Eric, he was checking the boards out a few days back.
Wonder if he is scared yet? heh
If his past response is any indication, he'll make a nasty editorial blasting everyone that doesn't agree with the conversion decisions.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
If his past response is any indication, he'll make a nasty editorial blasting everyone that doesn't agree with the conversion decisions.
Cool, I love reading those, very entertaining.
At the rate it's going, it should have Pazio's logo on it...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
:heehee
At the rate it's going, it should have Pazio's logo on it...
Dammmmmnnnnnnnn
Are we majorly torqued off yet? heh
/me packs his bags and get the hell out of dodge on that one
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Dammmmmnnnnnnnn
Are we majorly torqued off yet? heh
/me packs his bags and get the hell out of dodge on that one
Just noting fans' reaction to Pazio's re-envisioning of settings...:D
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Just noting fans' reaction to Pazio's re-envisioning of settings...:D
Glad to know that we aren't the only fanatics miffed.
I elect Grummore as our leader, and I suggest we get a large lynch mob going.
/me finds some shiny full plate for Grummore, the silly frog paladin
Ya, you're not the only fanantics out there miffed. At least now we're in good company
And just because I want to use this cute little guy:
Originally posted by Oninotaki
Here's some thing funny I noticed from David Noonan's introduction that I thought was a little funny:D
"The setting is evocative as ever, but many of the specific mechanical elements(such as half-giants who always got d12s for hit dice and defiler wizards as a seperate class from preservers) don't work with the new D&D rules."
Half-giants that always get d12s? When did I miss that :whatsthis Thats the kind of stuff that just makes it seem like this guy didnt pay much attention to how darksun used to be.
On the other hand I think I may change all my darksun giants (half-giants included) to roll d12s:D
Not d12's.. but a half-giant character doubles all HP rolls and add Con bonuses after the doubling for each level. (Age of Heroes, pg 14)
Erik Mona didn't receive too much of a warm welcome from Spelljammer fans after his comments in his editorials when the Spelljammer mini-game came out.
Thing is, he is entitled to his opinions on the classic SJ setting. I respect that. What I didn't respect was when he referred to certain classic elements of Spelljammer as "goofy" (Giff) and "wonky" (cosmology).
I don't mind that he doesn't like all the elements of the classic game. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it. However, I feel that his treatment of the fans of the setting was poor.
That's just a big no-no in the RPG business. Respect your fans.
Had he just said that they were taking an alternate look at Spelljammer, and the Spider Moon solar system was a system that could be stand-alone or inserted into the classic cosmology, I think he would have received a warmer welcome.
Just be careful with the "lynch mob" mentality. Nobody wins in that sort of situation.
The positive outlook on this is that there will be two sources of Dark Sun materials, which will please a wide variety of fans. Some will prefer Paizo's stuff, while others will prefer Athas.org's materials. There will be others still that will be somewhere in the middle, mixing between the two.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Thing is, he is entitled to his opinions on the classic SJ setting. I respect that. What I didn't respect was when he referred to certain classic elements of Spelljammer as "goofy" (Giff) and "wonky" (cosmology).
Uh, how in the H E double hockey sticks can you not like the Giff or the cosmology?! I love both! What I know of the latter anyways.
I don't mind that he doesn't all the elements of the classic game. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it. However, I feel that his treatment of the fans of the setting was poor.
That's just a big no-no in the RPG business. Respect your fans.
Yeah, that's just bad PR, I can't believe he got the job after all this.
Had he just said that they were taking an alternate look at Spelljammer, and the Spider Moon solar system was a system that could be stand-alone or inserted into the classic cosmology, I think he would have received a warmer welcome.
Agreed.
Just be careful with the "lynch mob" mentality. Nobody wins in that sort of situation.
I'm just being silly and am focusing my energy into just that, poking fun at this thing.
If someone else actually wants to waste energy at being more negative at this thing that's their perogative. I agree though, be careful, this is a touchy thing.
The positive outlook on this is that there will be two sources of Dark Sun materials, which will please a wide variety of fans. Some will prefer Paizo's stuff, while others will prefer Athas.org's materials. There will be others still that will be somewhere in the middle, mixing between the two.
Agreed, and I will be somewhere in between, but the majority of my stuff will be based on athas.org's stuff.
Only makes sense since I helped with some of it and was around for the creation of most of it and can understand why things were done the way they were.
This paizo thing I just don't understand, but got a good idea for why.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Yeah, that's just bad PR, I can't believe he got the job after all this.
Simple: SotSM sold out. Contraversy sells.
I'm just being silly and am focusing my energy into just that, poking fun at this thing.
If someone else actually wants to waste energy at being more negative at this thing that's their perogative. I agree though, be careful, this is a touchy thing.
Same here, I'm being rather silly about the whole thing. I'm not passionate enough about about Darksun to really be angry or truly negative, but I can understand and sympathise with those that are upset.
the Pazio Punisher!
I'll even throw in another artifact sword creation of mine: The Scrapper!
;)
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I'm just being silly and am focusing my energy into just that, poking fun at this thing.
Good deal.
The flipside to the Spider Moon thing is that a lot of diehard SJ fans really got in a mood. I think I was as upset over that as I was about the editorials. In the end, it just left a sour taste in my mouth.
Thing is, Spider Moon wasn't really all that bad without the editorial commentary. It wasn't fully classic SJ, but it could be integrated, which is what I would do. I would actually like the chance to play it as a one-shot.
The key is to keep on smiling, and I'm glad to see you guys doing just that.
But hairy dwarves... sheesh.
Half-giants that are lesser in "physical" power than half-dwarves. Come on here!
Half-elves have no affinity to animals any longer.
I guess I'm holding off on much comments relating to the material from the EPH, but I can't imagine that the Elan is actually a creation of the Order in the EPH. But if you are going to have a "race" that is actually an existing race (human) but slightly evolved into a more specialized aspect... why not dip into real Dark Sun material and pull out the villichi? But that Dark Sun has actual precedence for something like this, I'm okay with giving this a grudging pass.
Halflings, I'm sorry, but the write-up of halflings just doesn't evoke the sense of fear that other races have of halflings. They just seem so tame.
Giving Pterran's a Balance and Jump check bonus because they have tails seem arbitrary. Favored class is Barbarian? Ouch!
On classes. As with other nits, these have been mostly noticed already by others.
But arcane spellcasting bards... Yowsers. I'm cringing.
I'm limiting most of my comments to complaints, but I wanted to say that the cleric (elemental and templar) domain choosing is a rather interesting idea. Very simplified and inspired yet still retains enough flavor to get by.
Paladin? No, no, no, no. Far more needed to be said to make Paladins in Athas believable.
It is just plain goofy to say that sorcerers try to pass themselves off as wizards to dodge execution.
I imagine druids have been said to now have an organized revolutionary movement in cities because the Veiled Alliance is all but exclusive to Tyr now... So I'm understanding on that.
Equipment and Rules.
The Alhulak is effectively a heavy flail? Uh... this must have been a "space" reason.
Dragon's Paw equates to an orc double axe? Yikes. Another "space" victim?
Interesting note with languages... among speakers of Giant it includes tarek and beasthead giants. Among speakers of Pterran are nikaals and ssurrans. Yet tareks, nikaals, ssurrans and beast head giants do not make it into any issue. I noticed that Gith speak "Tariati", is this the Tari language? If so, we don't have the Tari in any issue either.
Speaking of monsters, I'm was disappointed that the Jozhal was overlooked for conversion. I also noticed that the Cloud Ray was excluded from the DS monster list in Dungeon #110.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
There are some fine things in the four Paizo magazine issues for Dark Sun. (Dragon #315, #319; Dungeon #110, #111).
I didn't know they were going to do two issues of Dungeon in a row. #110 is what just came out, right? Any idea on what is in #111?
But hairy dwarves... sheesh.
Half-giants that are lesser in "physical" power than half-dwarves. Come on here!
Yeah, not happy with those. Also you would lose the "axis alignment" of the half-giant, which is one of its selling points.
I'm limiting most of my comments to complaints, but I wanted to say that the cleric (elemental and templar) domain choosing is a rather interesting idea. Very simplified and inspired yet still retains enough flavor to get by.
Agreed. I was working on converting an old DS cleric to 3e, and I was using pretty much the same system.
A compromise of sorts would be to pick one of the PHB elemental domains, then have my second one be one of Athas.org's that would then be associated with the same element.
Paladin? No, no, no, no. Far more needed to be said to make Paladins in Athas believable.
From what I've heard of them, agreed. It messes with the way magic is set up in DS. I would have preferred that they drop this in favor of an elemental champion PrC that had some abilities that mimicked the paladin, but also some element-specific abilities.
It is just plain goofy to say that sorcerers try to pass themselves off as wizards to dodge execution.
What I don't understand is why being a sorcerer is so much worse than being a wizard. I mean, they both cast magic that can potentially defile, so wouldn't they be reviled equally? They would just use different paths to achieve how they cast magic.
Now I can see them trying to pass off as psions. How accepted are psionics, though? Are they seen as another type of magic, or something else entirely? Why would psionics be accepted in the first place?
Can someone PLEASE give us some OK stuff??? Not even asking for GOOD stuff. Anyone?
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Can someone PLEASE give us some OK stuff??? Not even asking for GOOD stuff. Anyone?
What about the cleric domains? That's about as true of a 3e translation as one can get using PHB domains.
Now I can see them trying to pass off as psions. How accepted are psionics, though? Are they seen as another type of magic, or something else entirely? Why would psionics be accepted in the first place?
Because psions don't tend to kill off the incredibly rare amounts of croplands when they use their powers ;)
It would have been better to simply state that the sorcys passed themselves as psions than to say they impersonated wizards.
In then end though, I am glad for the publicity. Hopefully now when I mention Dark Sun at the local game shop, I won't get so many strange looks from the teenage 'new to D&D' crowd. I've already added 1 new person to my game (bringing the total for my large group to 11) and possibly another, all thanks to the articles and exposures. Of course there's the problem with the second fellow wanting a paladin, but that's easily rectified by letting him play one, then having the SKs decend upon him like a cancer and eat his entrails . . .
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Can someone PLEASE give us some OK stuff??? Not even asking for GOOD stuff. Anyone?
Some good...
Well, the advent of Blood Obsidian is cool. Even though the flavor text might get a picky Athas-phile thinking just what thing weirdness is going on. The first sentence of Blood Obsidian is:
"When volcanoes are created through defiler magic, veins of blood obsidian result."
My response was a big "Okaaaaaaay"... It's cool, but I don't recall this happening, even in the Dragon #315 article... or did it? Still, Blood Obsidian is nifty, and I'm glad it is rare as heck.
The inclusion of a good amount of alternate materials rules is a plus. I'm pleased that there wasn't an attempt at shoe-horning in some alternate material equivalent to full plate, instead there are only two types of heavy armor (chitin, and bronze half-plate) and three types of medium armor (shell, hide, and bronze half-plate). There are eight Light armors (padded, bark, cord, leather, bone, wood, studded leather, and leather scale).
There seems to be a nod towards life-shaped items with the beetle buckler, a living vermin that latches to your arm and attunes itself to you. A command word causes it to fly around blocking attacks like Deflect Arrows.
The castes are adequately summed up shortly.
From the perspective that as little changes to the base PHB classes is a good thing angle, the base classes are really changed very little. The druid and ranger understandably get a new list of beasts, but the little changes there are are adding Sleight of Hand to the Sorcerer and Wizard, and removing Swim from all classes except Water Clerics.
The article doesn't have a pure Magic and Psionics are Same or are Different. It has a blend of each. Effects that dispell, negate, nullify magic or psionics functions against the other equally. Detect psionics will detect the presence of magic and detect magic will detect the presence of psionic powers, but instead of the details that would normally be provided, only a "foreign aura", but not strength or school/discpline.
As far as my swift perusal of Dungeon #110 goes, I am very pleased to have a large list of choices for familiars.
I really have no complaint about the adventure. Indeed, it is quite fine.
Oh, Dungeon #111 will have another batch of monsters. The complete list of monsters in that issue includes Rainrunner (elemental 1/3 CR), Earthdelver (elemental 1/2 CR), Firesnake (elemental 1/2 CR), Windraptor (elemental 1/2 CR), Yallix (animal 1/2 CR), Zhackal (magical beast 1 CR), Belgoi (humanoid 2 CR), Erdlu (animal 2 CR), Seskarran (animal 2 CR), Jhakar (animal 3 CR), Rasclinn (magical beast 3 CR), Fodorran (magical beast 4 CR), Lirr (magical beast 4 CR), Razorwing (animal 4 CR), Dune Reaper Drone (magical beast 5 CR), Mastyrial (animal 8 CR), Dune Reaper Warrior (magical beast 9 CR),
Gaj (aberration 11 CR).
Ah, and one last note of complaint... on the map of the Tyr region, Ablath is marked erroneously with the symbol for "city". It was an error in the DS2 boxed set, and is perpetuated again here. Oh well!
Regards,
Eric Anondson
I was really looking forward to this whole thing and wow, was I dissapointed in this. I mean truely let down. The only thing that was close to being good in the Dragon was the equipment section. It wasn't too bad, even there though there was problems... lets take the "beetle buckler" for instance: It says the stats are the same as for a +1 buckler, but the stats for it in the stat block aren't the same as a +1 buckler. Also, it has the ability to deflect arrows, great, but it says that it uses the bugs Ref save for the roll... what roll? You don't roll for Deflect Arrows anymore in 3.5. sigh
Like I said, very dissapointed.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
What I don't understand is why being a sorcerer is so much worse than being a wizard. I mean, they both cast magic that can potentially defile, so wouldn't they be reviled equally? They would just use different paths to achieve how they cast magic.
Now I can see them trying to pass off as psions. How accepted are psionics, though? Are they seen as another type of magic, or something else entirely? Why would psionics be accepted in the first place?
Psionics is accepted in Athas because just about everybody has the potential to have some psionic talent. There are schools, operating nice and publicly, that will train you in The Way. Psionics is something that your average city-dweller will see on a daily basis.
Arcane magic, on the other hand, is the foul unnatural stuf that devastated the world. All the Templars say so!
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Going back to something earlier...
Erik Mona didn't receive too much of a warm welcome from Spelljammer fans after his comments in his editorials when the Spelljammer mini-game came out.
Thing is, he is entitled to his opinions on the classic SJ setting. I respect that. What I didn't respect was when he referred to certain classic elements of Spelljammer as "goofy" (Giff) and "wonky" (cosmology).
I don't mind that he doesn't all the elements of the classic game. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it. However, I feel that his treatment of the fans of the setting was poor.
That's just a big no-no in the RPG business. Respect your fans.
Had he just said that they were taking an alternate look at Spelljammer, and the Spider Moon solar system was a system that could be stand-alone or inserted into the classic cosmology, I think he would have received a warmer welcome.
Just be careful with the "lynch mob" mentality. Nobody wins in that sort of situation.
The positive outlook on this is that there will be two sources of Dark Sun materials, which will please a wide variety of fans. Some will prefer Paizo's stuff, while others will prefer Athas.org's materials. There will be others still that will be somewhere in the middle, mixing between the two.
I feel sorry for Erik Mona and David Noonan for all their hard work, especially David Noonan who did this on his own free time. They don't deserve this kind of hate reactions from the fans devoted to the dead settings. But no matter what you do, you will ALWAYS find these fans dissatisfied. It happens to others like Gamma World and Dragonlance.
I'm very frustrated and very disappointed at the fans' reactions that I hope that WotC will never revive the dead settings from here on in ... ever. Not even selling the IPs nor licensing them out. And at the risk of getting flamed, once those licenses are expired, they should not renew them, even my beloved Dragonlance.
It's better to let them fade into obscurity.
Yeah, I'm getting emotional, so are most of the posts in this thread.
I feel sorry for Erik Mona and David Noonan for all their hard work, especially David Noonan who did this on his own free time. They don't deserve this kind of hate reactions from the fans devoted to the dead settings. But no matter what you do, you will ALWAYS find these fans dissatisfied. It happens to others like Gamma World and Dragonlance.
On the flip side though, over at EnWorld, the articles seem fairly well recieved. There's quite a few people that have said they like it and plan on using it at some point in time.
Still, I do agree that its hard to please hardcore fans, but then again, things like this aren't really done for the hardcore fans anyhow. We're already happy playing DS. The new articles I don't think were geared towards old fans, but instead geared to inspiring new fans. Since alot of the positive feedback on other boards seems to stem from either dabblers from the 2e days or new fans introduced with 3e, I think the articles did what they were supposed to do.
I can also empathise with having your work thrashed and know exactly how it feels. Its hard, you get miffed, and then you get over it; well, most do. Some take it harder than others, especially those that don't realise that when people are generally happy with your work, they say very little, but if they don't like it, they've got no problem voicing that opinion at length and quite loudly.
I do agree with the idea that the IP of the old settings should remain where its at. I think WOTC, in the long run, should have simply presented some actual new material based off athas.org, since the side effect of that would have been new people downloading the ESDs along with sales of the Psi Handbook, but that's not the direction they chose.
The only two IPs actual on liscense right now are DL and RL. Although I still haven't had the chash to delve into either, from what little I've seen, both have stayed mostly respectful of their source. Sorry you think that SS hasn't stayed true to DL. My own gripe there is the order at which the material came out in, but that's a minor one.
It is a shame with the talk of lynching that now there's little chance at all of David Noonan coming over to discuss the articles here (sometimes, a little beackground justifying can turn crummy ideas into good ones when you know the rational behind it).
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I feel sorry for Erik Mona and David Noonan for all their hard work, especially David Noonan who did this on his own free time. They don't deserve this kind of hate reactions from the fans devoted to the dead settings. But no matter what you do, you will ALWAYS find these fans dissatisfied. It happens to others like Gamma World and Dragonlance.
You have got to be joking me. "Hate reactions"? Good grief, you consider what's been posted thus far as "hate"? Please. Get out more, you can find real hate in half this planet. At worse, people here have been expressing disappointment and criticism at the changes made (bearded dwarves, short elves, too much iron, etc) or have been poking some fun at Pazio (the so-called "lynch mob"...you might not realize it, but that's just a joke). Sorry to break this to you, but criticism does not equal hate. Hate would be more like "I'm so mad I'm going to to Noonan".
A little more thought could have gone into the weapons of DS. The biggest poo-poo is the tortise(sp?) blades. "Counts as" (a term a lot of people use when playing Warhammer 40K) a spiked shield that does slashing damage?
:headexplo ARRRGHHH!!!
I was soooo looking forward to this and I am sooo disappointed.
Originally posted by Ground_State Johnny
I got the magazine last night and I have to say that I too am sorely disappointed...
A little more thought could have gone into the weapons of DS. The biggest poo-poo is the tortise(sp?) blades. "Counts as" (a term a lot of people use when playing Warhammer 40K) a spiked shield that does slashing damage?
Odd that they didn't just update the entry for toroise blades from the September 2000 issue of Dragon. Granted, it's designated as a "Gnome Tortoise Blade," and is Tiny, but it's easy enough to up the damage a level and use the stats given.
The article with the tortoise blades, "The Right Tool for the Job," also includes stats for an "Orc Crusher" (just a "crusher," thank you), the gythka, and a bunch of other Dark Sunnish weapons. It's 3.0, not 3.5, but that's not really a big deal.
BP
No kidding. I don't think anybody here didn't know that. How could you be a fan of this setting and not know that.
***HOW COULD NOONAN NOT KNOW THAT??***
"I feel sorry for Erik Mona and David Noonan for all their hard work, especially David Noonan who did this on his own free time. They don't deserve this kind of hate reactions from the fans devoted to the dead settings. "
I don't feel sorry for them at all. What kind of people would start a project like this without knowing even the most BASIC things about the setting. It's not like it doesn't take 15 minutes to read a copy of the original box set books or even the early Dragon issue that had all the damn races in it! They are worse than lazy they are incompetent.
"I'm very frustrated and very disappointed at the fans' reactions that I hope that WotC will never revive the dead settings from here on in ... ever. "
You don't want the old settings back because you don't want the writer's feelings hurt when they do a crappy job???? Whatever.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I feel sorry for Erik Mona and David Noonan for all their hard work, especially David Noonan who did this on his own free time. They don't deserve this kind of hate reactions from the fans devoted to the dead settings.
Look, REG, I don't mean my comments to be a hate reaction. I respect their hard work and design ability. I have not once said anything negative about Noonan (sp?), as I don't have any biases towards him either way.
From what I've heard about the DS article, there are some things I think they might have done better or differently, but as was mentioned earlier, this was probably set up this way to draw in new fans.
As for Erik Mona, I just think he handled that one situation with Spelljammer bad. He could have done it differently, simply stating that they're doing a bit of a different take that could be stand-alone, or fit into the classic setting. He didn’t need to go any further.
But that’s old news, and probably some old news that I shouldn’t have mentioned. I apologize for doing so.
But no matter what you do, you will ALWAYS find these fans dissatisfied. It happens to others like Gamma World and Dragonlance.
Totally agreed. You get this no matter the setting. What complicates matters is when a setting changes editions, especially if there was prior fan works for the setting. In this case, we have the works of Athas.org.
I'm very frustrated and very disappointed at the fans' reactions that I hope that WotC will never revive the dead settings from here on in ... ever. Not even selling the IPs nor licensing them out. And at the risk of getting flamed, once those licenses are expired, they should not renew them, even my beloved Dragonlance.
It's better to let them fade into obscurity.
Yeah, I'm getting emotional, so are most of the posts in this thread.
Easy there, REG. I know how frustrating it can be, and I understand where you come from. There are many times where Sovereign Press gets flack from Dragonlance fans.
I think, no matter what was done in Dragon and Dungeon, there would have been complaints. Heck, even the Athas.org people, who are very true to the setting, get complaints. That’s just the nature of fandom.
From Noonan’s perspective, he was probably working with certain guidelines. The #1 guideline was probably to incorporate as much of the PHB as possible, and make everything compatible with the core rules. He was probably also told to incorporate as much of the XPH as possible too. From there, his own design philosophy came in, and I’m sure (as was mentioned above) that the article was geared more toward the modern D&D fan community. I’m sure they tried to keep consistent with classic Dark Sun as much as possible, but with all of the above guidelines in play plus trying to keep consistent, something has to go here and there.
I think it’s a good thing that these settings get a revival. It keeps the names going and the interest out there, as well as drawing in a new fan base. And no, we’re not going to agree with all the decisions made. However, we do have a new vision of Dark Sun, and one that may further inspire us.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
It is a shame with the talk of lynching that now there's little chance at all of David Noonan coming over to discuss the articles here (sometimes, a little beackground justifying can turn crummy ideas into good ones when you know the rational behind it).
Sorry Mach, I normally respect what you have to say, but I think you are way off base here.
If David Noonan, Eric Mona, et al don't have a sense of humor or can't take criticism, then I don't want them over here discussing why they did what they did. Especially when it comes to Eric Mona and him taking things on a very personal level, hence his editorial.
All the lynch mob thing was a joke, nothing more, nothing less, at least from my end of it. The rest from other's people's end is nothing more than criticism, something I take on a daily basis and grin and bare it when I do. If they can't, then there is something seriously wrong with them and they shouldn't be in this business to begin with, since what they do is a job full of a lot of criticism from the fans.
Sorry that some folks don't have enough sense of humor to look at what they have created and detest it to the point of making fun of it without getting all up in arms and becoming vulgar and violent about it.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I feel sorry for Erik Mona and David Noonan for all their hard work, especially David Noonan who did this on his own free time. They don't deserve this kind of hate reactions from the fans devoted to the dead settings. But no matter what you do, you will ALWAYS find these fans dissatisfied. It happens to others like Gamma World and Dragonlance.
Oh, yea. We shouldn't be upset that Noonian's write-up basically said "disregard everything ever done before for Dark Sun, it's been rewritten to suit a new purpose". Sure, Noonian probably had a lot of pressure to complete the articles, however there are so many blaring inconsistancies in what he's written to make any of the Dark Sun books that were published before seem to all fit together like a perfect jigsaw puzzle without a single mistake. Christ, he's got the races horribly wrong, the classes horribly wrong, the game setting/flavor completely wrong. He wrote up "Bizarro Dark Sun", 'cause it definitely was not Dark Sun.
I'm very frustrated and very disappointed at the fans' reactions that I hope that WotC will never revive the dead settings from here on in ... ever. Not even selling the IPs nor licensing them out. And at the risk of getting flamed, once those licenses are expired, they should not renew them, even my beloved Dragonlance.
It's better to let them fade into obscurity.
Yeah, I'm getting emotional, so are most of the posts in this thread.
I'm usually one to try to make sense of such things - I'm willing to overlook and correct a few mistakes for the better good. However, what was released in Dragon and Dungeon just is not Dark Sun. It's an imposter campaign setting using the Dark Sun name to attract attention.
To claim it would be better to just drop the old game settings is rather closed-minded. There are many people who like the campaign settings that WotC didn't continue due to cost & resources. I personally don't care for Spelljammer, but I also understand that there are people who do - and that it would be unfair to them to completely halt the setting just to let it fall into obscurity. When WotC handed the licenses out to fansites to continue the development of those Campaign Setting, I'd have to say I found that to be very impressive - it showed (to me) that WotC did care (at least somewhat) for the fans of the game, as well as their customers - a trait not commonly attributed to most companies.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Oh, yea. We shouldn't be upset that Noonian's write-up basically said "disregard everything ever done before for Dark Sun, it's been rewritten to suit a new purpose".
Appearantly so. We're supposed to bow down and proclaim this the "one true conversion" and at the same time laugh at and discard the hard and dedicated work of athas.com. What's funny is that I have not seen this so-called "hate" that RangerREG sees, but massive disappointment and people saying "I may not like everything athas.com does, but I like their conversion better."
Heh, Bizarro Dark Sun...I like that :D
I just keep getting this Deja'Vu feeling with every post
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Christ, he's got the races horribly wrong, the classes horribly wrong, the game setting/flavor completely wrong. He wrote up "Bizarro Dark Sun", 'cause it definitely was not Dark Sun.
.
So this Counter-Athas exists on the other side of the Sun from normal Athas?:D
but ya... a lot of stuff in the articles either tells me stuff I already know, or i have better implementations at my disposal. The idea of playing in free year 300 is pretty nice... though it needs a few tweaks here and there.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I'm very frustrated and very disappointed at the fans' reactions that I hope that WotC will never revive the dead settings from here on in ... ever. Not even selling the IPs nor licensing them out. And at the risk of getting flamed, once those licenses are expired, they should not renew them, even my beloved Dragonlance.
It's better to let them fade into obscurity.
Ok, I can't let this go because it gets under my skin due to the ignorance of people...
WotC *HAS* revived all the dead settings. Dark Sun has been revived twice now, while DL, and RL are being revived by D20 companies.
When the fansites got the permission to do the dead worlds in D&D 3e rules, they got the power to do just that. They are also considered official, no matter how much you want to disagree and simply not except that, that's not our problem if you do and you can remain ignorant all you want.
The dead worlds however are revived and will continue to be so, because WotC, and any other D20 company, simply can't ignore the numbers involved with such dead worlds. The numbers mght not be good enough to publish it in a hardbound book, but they are big enough that you simply just can't ignore them anymore.
That's another thing too, just because it's not published in a hardbound book, doesn't mean that it's not professional, nor does it mean that it's not official. If you really need a hardbound book to hold just to consider anything published or official, then you live a sheltered life.
All the lynch mob thing was a joke, nothing more, nothing less, at least from my end of it.
I know that, you know that. I'm sure that most anyone else who reads it knows that. But that doesn't mean that if your the one being criticised with jokes your going to laugh it off. Maybe its just me and my own personal arogance, but if I had dropped onto a message board and read some of that, I would be miffed off and think to myself "Frag 'em then", and would likely ignore that segment of the community. Then again, I take criticism and jests about as well as a rabid starving dog takes to a mailman, so maybe its just me
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I Then again, I take criticism and jests about as well as a rabid starving dog takes to a mailman, so maybe its just me
Probably, heh.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I personally will not be using the material from Dragon and Dungeon. It so seriously breaks with what Dark Sun is, that it just can't compare. I love what the people at athas.org have done with the system, and agree with 95% (if not more) of their rules. I can see where they are coming from with how they implemented things. I can't see where Noonian came from with his implementation. Maybe I need some hard drugs to help.
Try some of Dawnstealer's jello minitures...after a few of those, it won't really matter...
No, but this DL/SJ fan moved Lord Soth's pet tarrasque from DL16 World of Krynn to Erik Mona's basement.
>>>
That would suggest I have a basement.
As someone mentioned upthread, I'm peeking in every once in a while to see what people think of what we've done. I'll be happy to respond to specific questions and criticisms a bit later, when more posters are operating off of actual knowledge of what was printed in the magazines rather than worrying about something they haven't read, yet. Undoubtedbly some of you have read the issues in question, but it still seems like (especially with Dragon) the issues haven't made it to all corners of the world yet.
I'm not sure there's a strong parallel between what we've done with the Dark Sun setting in Dungeon and Polyhedron and what we did with Spelljammer back in Dungeon #92. The former was given a specific subtitle ("Shadow of the Spider Moon") to denote that it was not part of the normal Spelljammer continuity, and we frankly didn't take a lot of steps to make it fit with the old material. That material had its adherents, but the game's author, Andy Collins, and I wanted to take a swing at flying boats in space without elements we (and lots of other people) found annoying. In the process, we ended up annoying a lot of hard core fans. Some poorly chosen words on my behalf in a now-infamous editorial added fuel to the fire.
At least insofar as Dungeon/Polyhedron is concerned, we advanced the timeline of the setting some 300 years to provide a "safe harbor" for current Dark Sun players (and the folks happily using the athas.org material). We did that _specifically_ because of the reaction to the Spelljammer game. If people decided they didn't like the conversion or where Dave took the setting, the material is fairly easily ignored. As many fans have pointed out, it's not like we're going to be publishing a ton of support for the advanced timeline. Consider it a _possible_ future for Athas, and take it or leave it as you prefer.
As for Hamanu's lion body and human head, I'll take full blame for that mistake. I wasn't aware of existing art for the dragon-king. That said, over the course of 300 years there's every chance in the world he'd experiment with multiple forms. I hear he's fairly powerful.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
Originally posted by Erik Mona
I'll be happy to respond to specific questions and criticisms a bit later, when more posters are operating off of actual knowledge of what was printed in the magazines rather than worrying about something they haven't read, yet. Undoubtedbly some of you have read the issues in question, but it still seems like (especially with Dragon) the issues haven't made it to all corners of the world yet.
Still waiting for both issues here.
I guess moving botched things up even though I gave Paizo and the USPS my new address way ahead of time.
At least insofar as Dungeon/Polyhedron is concerned, we advanced the timeline of the setting some 300 years to provide a "safe harbor" for current Dark Sun players (and the folks happily using the athas.org material). We did that _specifically_ because of the reaction to the Spelljammer game. If people decided they didn't like the conversion or where Dave took the setting, the material is fairly easily ignored.
That's what I assumed. That was the best move you guys could have done IMO.
P.S. Eric, good to see you have a sense of humor about this all. I knew you would. ;)
Originally posted by Erik Mona
That material had its adherents, but the game's author, Andy Collins, and I wanted to take a swing at flying boats in space without elements we (and lots of other people) found annoying. In the process, we ended up annoying a lot of hard core fans. Some poorly chosen words on my behalf in a now-infamous editorial added fuel to the fire.
Well, I think in general, it was those poorly chosen words that fueld a lot of contraversy, far less than the design decisions. I know a lot of people took great offense at that, even months later.
I will say that I haven't seen the level of anger with this DS conversion that I saw with the SJ one. You'll find that most of the comments thus far has been on the level of a criticism on the amount of research done (many inconsistances with core DS material, bearded dwarves, short elves, an abudence of iron, and weakly converted monsters) and the overall opinion that it is "Darksun-like", but not truly Darksun.
Of course, there is running-gag of a lynch-mob, but that's tongue-in-cheek.;)
Originally posted by Erik Mona
>>>
No, but this DL/SJ fan moved Lord Soth's pet tarrasque from DL16 World of Krynn to Erik Mona's basement.
>>>
That would suggest I have a basement.
Don't worry, you can fit him in your back yard. Uh...you do have a back yard, right? ;)
Some poorly chosen words on my behalf in a now-infamous editorial added fuel to the fire.
That worked both ways, too. Many fans on the Spelljammer-L mailing list were very...intense. We'll leave it at that. I'm actually quite embarrassed :embarrass to say that I fell into that trap myself. I took a step away from it all, and all was better.
It was a combination of the "now-infamous editorial" and the fans' overly negative reaction to it (and 3e Spelljammer in general) that really left a sour taste in my mouth.
Personally, I look at Spider Moon as an alternate take at Spelljammer. It's something that can be integrated into the overall whole (which I would do), or could be used as a stand-alone setting too.
You may be surprised to know that I may be playing in a straight Spider Moon game this fall when a friend moves back into my area.
At least insofar as Dungeon/Polyhedron is concerned, we advanced the timeline of the setting some 300 years to provide a "safe harbor" for current Dark Sun players (and the folks happily using the athas.org material). We did that _specifically_ because of the reaction to the Spelljammer game. If people decided they didn't like the conversion or where Dave took the setting, the material is fairly easily ignored. As many fans have pointed out, it's not like we're going to be publishing a ton of support for the advanced timeline. Consider it a _possible_ future for Athas, and take it or leave it as you prefer.
I think that was a great move. It shows a lot of respect for the guys at Athas.org too.
I am concerned that we may have a repeat of the Spider Moon fiasco. Some commentary thus far has been light-hearted, other commentary not as much.
As Erik has learned from his own mistakes with Spider Moon, and I mine, I would encourage the fans of Dark Sun to not make the same mistakes that Spelljammer fandom made. Give the articles a chance. Take from them what you will, and use what you want. And if you don't like it, that's fine too because there are alternates out there, such as that seen at Athas.org.
The more the merrier, I say.
Lynch mobs rule!
I liked that band . . . well, for a cheesy 80's hairband anyway.
At least insofar as Dungeon/Polyhedron is concerned, we advanced the timeline of the setting some 300 years to provide a "safe harbor" for current Dark Sun players (and the folks happily using the athas.org material). We did that _specifically_ because of the reaction to the Spelljammer game.
Personally, this is something that would have never occured to me to do. Jumping ahead a couple of years from the end of the timeline I could have foreseen happening, but I like the extra breathing space for those who feel that everything with the logo is mandatory canon for everyone's game.
As for Hamanu's lion body and human head, I'll take full blame for that mistake. I wasn't aware of existing art for the dragon-king. That said, over the course of 300 years there's every chance in the world he'd experiment with multiple forms. I hear he's fairly powerful.
Consider it Hamanu's tribute to the forgotten wemics of days gone by, or maybe he got tired of shaving that mangy lion face all the time.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Isn't Dave Noonan David Noonan? Who co-wrote Unearthed Arcana and wrote Complete Divine?
And who I spoke to at GenCon2000 about the internal DS campaign he had been running at WotC. (Yes, I'm sure that this stuff dates back that far) It wasn't much more than using the setting; the rules (since he was playtesting the 3.0 Psionics HB) were vanilla D&D.
How can someone who writes official WotC material that is good write something so crappy and far from the original material, and one who was a writer of UA, which is a bunch of alternate D&D rules and ways to go, write something so close to core D&D that there's no point not just playing in Anauroch or something!
Actually ... I think, to some extent, that was the point, sad though that may seem. Dragon and Dungeon are D&D magazines. Their purpose is to publish material to expand and enhance your D&D gaming experience. Therefore, they need to reach their entire audience. If they publish material that is unusuable in a standard setting, than their probably rendering the issue pointless to a large majority of their readership. IOW, a disservice.
Is it disappointing? Yes. Is it surpriseing? Not really,
In light of this new preview, I just want to salute athas.org's endeavors in this conversion.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
>>>
No, but this DL/SJ fan moved Lord Soth's pet tarrasque from DL16 World of Krynn to Erik Mona's basement.
>>>
That would suggest I have a basement.
:snicker:
As someone mentioned upthread, I'm peeking in every once in a while to see what people think of what we've done. I'll be happy to respond to specific questions and criticisms a bit later, when more posters are operating off of actual knowledge of what was printed in the magazines rather than worrying about something they haven't read, yet. Undoubtedbly some of you have read the issues in question, but it still seems like (especially with Dragon) the issues haven't made it to all corners of the world yet.
I only know what I've read on the boards so far. My Dragon issue hasn't arrived, and I don't subscribe to Dungeon.
At least insofar as Dungeon/Polyhedron is concerned, we advanced the timeline of the setting some 300 years to provide a "safe harbor" for current Dark Sun players (and the folks happily using the athas.org material). We did that _specifically_ because of the reaction to the Spelljammer game.
And I want to say "Thanks" for that. I'm extremely satisfied with the future history, both with the situation it leaves you in 300 years hence, and with the fact that you still left us with some interesting situations to play with. Not what I was expecting at all, and a very pleasant surprise.
As for the rules ... well, I still have to see them for myself.
As for Hamanu's lion body and human head, I'll take full blame for that mistake. I wasn't aware of existing art for the dragon-king. That said, over the course of 300 years there's every chance in the world he'd experiment with multiple forms. I hear he's fairly powerful.
It wouldn't be the first time the art and the text have deviated. And Polymorph is a pretty low level spell, for a Dragon. ;)
BTW, is Athas.org going to support David Noonan's Dark Sun or will I find an official letter of denouncement posted on their web site soon?
Hmm...
Originally posted by Ranger REG
BTW, is Athas.org going to support David Noonan's Dark Sun or will I find an official letter of denouncement posted on their web site soon?
Hmm...
If you'd check the site you would see that athas.org already has it's own official version out.
Yes it's 3.5 and yes it's official. With the onset of Paizo's crossover, you now have two official versions to pick from since their's is official too.
http://athas.org/releases has athas.org's version.
I have to admit, my last statements are very harsh,
Nah, everyone's allowed to have strong opinions on any topic. No justification neccessary.
BTW, is Athas.org going to support David Noonan's Dark Sun or will I find an official letter of denouncement posted on their web site soon?
Personally, I hope neither changes their stance (well, the Piazo articles aren't changing since they're over and done already).
I'm glad that those who may have not been too keen on Athas.org's conversion now have a second source to head towards; whether I like/support it is immaterial.
In fact, it actually makes DS one of the only WOTC settings with dual rule sets. I kinda like that. Makes it have a better chance at appealing to a larger audience overall than a single source would have.
And I want to say "Thanks" for that. I'm extremely satisfied with the future history, both with the situation it leaves you in 300 years hence, and with the fact that you still left us with some interesting situations to play with. Not what I was expecting at all, and a very pleasant surprise.
Ditto. Although it does impose somewhat on the course of the Dregoth Ascending adventure, the timeline jump in itself is nice.
Having said that, I really like how the races have been done (except for the Half-Giant, blech) and how they have incorporated the inherent psionic potential in the races. I also like that they have increased the ECL/LA to fit this. This is a further sign that these articles were done for the general audience.
@ Erik Mona
Even though I didn't really care for the articles in Dragon, I did like the stuff in Dungeon and I want to thank you and David Noonan for at least putting forth the effort to bring DS back to the land of the living and into the forefront of people's minds. Not that the athas.org stuff isn't there it's just web-based. Heck, until recently I didn't know it existed and I am a hard-core DS fan.
As Flip already said, I'm extremely satisfied with the future history too. I only miss THE DRAGON and in my opinion you could have brought him back too. For the rest, congratulations again.
It’s their right to make those decisions—they bought my work fair and square. But if you’re starting a Dark Sun game, you might find my perspective useful. I’ve run 3E Dark Sun since late 1999, playing out of three-ring binders, and it’s far and away my favorite setting. Along the way I’ve had plenty of opportunities to goof up as DM—and in the process learn how the core rules and the Dark Sun setting interact.
Characters
My original manuscript said this: “There are no bards, monks, paladins, or sorcerers in Dark Sun.” I stand by that 100%.
• Paladins simply have no place in the setting, as any longtime fan of Dark Sun knows. If I had a player at my Dark Sun table who really wanted to play a paladin, I’d write an elemental crusader prestige class or adapt the holy liberator, maybe in an antislavery direction.
• Monks pose serious balance problems that aren’t immediately apparent but emerge once your Dark Sun campaign has been going a while. In short, they’re way too good in a campaign that places significant limits on armor (which the monk doesn’t have to worry about) and weapons (which the monk also doesn’t have to worry about). Removing monks also creates more design space for psychic warriors.
• Rather than a bard base class, I wrote an “athasian bard” prestige class full of mysterious, assassin-like goodness. It didn’t see print.
• Sorcerers crowd the psion’s design space too much. If there’s one thing that playtesting taught me, it’s that Dark Sun works best when psions are the best spontaneous casters in the game. (And I’m baffled why sorcerers would pretend to be wizards.)
Weapons
My original manuscript had a weapon breakage rule that didn’t see print. Without it, I’m not sure that there’s much point to the different weapon materials, because character wealth will quickly ascend beyond the point where inferior weapons matter. With the rules as published, I imagine everyone will buy metal or blood obsidian weapons right away and ignore the other choices. After all, a metal longsword is still only 150 cp in the published rules, and it’ll last indefinitely.
In my playtests and my ongoing campaign, I got satisfying results if PCs start with obsidian/stone, bone, or bronze weapons and have to contend with inferior weapons and breakage for the first few levels of the campaign. Then the PCs earn their metal weapons, but they still have to worry about breakage when they’re unlucky or facing sundering enemies. If your Dark Sun game derives a similar result, I think you’ll enjoy it immensely.
I also think it’s worthwhile to distinguish costwise between all-metal weapons (like swords) and hafted metal weapons (like axes). And if you use blood obsidian in your own game, here's a tip: it might make an interesting component in some monsters' DR.
Armor
The published armor rules are also much different than the ones in my manuscript. I wrote some detailed “hot weather”rules that were punishing to PCs who wore heavy armor. The published rules don’t provide a disincentive for wearing heavy armor; a typical PC will be able to afford iron full plate easily by 7th or 8th level. If you want a traditional Dark Sun game where most PCs are lightly armored, consider adding some teeth to the Heat Dangers section on page 303 of the DMG and send the metal armor prices through the roof.
As an aside, people who really like tinkering with their game could ramp down the character wealth by level (DMG table 5-1) in their Dark Sun game. It’d further emphasize the harsh, metal-poor nature of the world. But character wealth by level touches many other aspects of the game, from class-by-class balance to challenge ratings, so tread carefully. You’ll probably have to refigure CR for monsters based on your own playtesting, which is time-consuming (but kind of fun). I left character wealth unchanged because I wanted DMs to be able to port new monsters and other game elements into their Dark Sun game without extensive playtesting. But if you’re interested in tinkering, I think it’s an idea worth exploring.
While I don’t agree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made, it’s absolutely their right to make those decisions. And fundamentally, you’re in charge of what goes on at your game table, so do what you want. No matter what rules set you use, I’ll just be glad if you’re playing Dark Sun.
Glad to know you didn't have some sort of brain damage which made you think that "Bizarro Dark Sun" was Dark Sun
Thanks for your clarification of the situation. I'm sure alot of us here would be interested to see the material from the manuscript that didn't make print. If you're able to show it to us, wonderful, but if you can't because of contractual reasons with Dragon, I understand.
Zeth Starshifter
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
I’m the guy who wrote the Dark Sun rules. I was as surprised as anyone by some of what I read in Dragon #319. And I strongly disagree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made.
It’s their right to make those decisions—they bought my work fair and square.
I knew it!
No self respecting Dark Sun fan would have done what they did with that writeup.
Guess it's time to refocus the lynch mob on Mona since he is editor in chief.
Where did that Tarrasque go?
My original manuscript said this: “There are no monks."
Bah!
The rest I can deal with, bards would make a good assasin/poison using class for rogues and such.
• Monks pose serious balance problems that aren’t immediately apparent but emerge once your Dark Sun campaign has been going a while. In short, they’re way too good in a campaign that places significant limits on armor (which the monk doesn’t have to worry about) and weapons (which the monk also doesn’t have to worry about). Removing monks also creates more design space for psychic warriors.
While I agree that there is an issue, I don't agree that's it's enough to kick them out totally and think it's rather easy to fix with tweaks to other parts of the system as well as a few to monk itself.
Weapons
My original manuscript had a weapon breakage rule that didn’t see print.
Anyway you can share that?
Anyways, good job on it overall and sorry they ditched some things and replaced them with others, but I guess that's their right since they bought your conversion from you.
It's all good either way, and when it all boils down, Dark Sun is getting a hell of alot coverage right now.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
BTW, is Athas.org going to support David Noonan's Dark Sun or will I find an official letter of denouncement posted on their web site soon?
Nope, no letters of denouncement.
As for supporting it ... well, to a certain extent, that's kind of up to Dragon and WotC. But, I'm not really sure I'm thrilled with the idea of dual-statting every one of our future releases, so I doubt that our support level is going to be all that high.
Originally posted by flip
Nope, no letters of denouncement.
As for supporting it ... well, to a certain extent, that's kind of up to Dragon and WotC. But, I'm not really sure I'm thrilled with the idea of dual-statting every one of our future releases, so I doubt that our support level is going to be all that high.
Well, I strongly suggest that we do not take anything from that "so called" conversion and proceed in the creation of things based on the real good work made by athas.org. No matter what, I'm gonna use your conversion, except, of course, for small things (DM always do
).Let's create things that represent ourself and the fan community. Things that make sence if you take the time to READ the darksun stuff.
Thanks.
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
• Paladins simply have no place in the setting, as any longtime fan of Dark Sun knows. If I had a player at my Dark Sun table who really wanted to play a paladin, I’d write an elemental crusader prestige class or adapt the holy liberator, maybe in an antislavery direction.
Back in 2e, I had worked up some basic stuff for an "elemental champion". Lately, I've been thinking it might make for an interesting option for a Dark Sun prestige class. It's cool to see a designer with the same thought. Provides a little bit of self validation.
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
• Sorcerers crowd the psion’s design space too much. If there’s one thing that playtesting taught me, it’s that Dark Sun works best when psions are the best spontaneous casters in the game. (And I’m baffled why sorcerers would pretend to be wizards.)
I'm baffled by that as well. Personally, I think one just needs to redefine where the sorcerer's spells come from, and you're fine.
However, one thing lately bugs me, and that is that there are an awful lot of spellcasting or psionic classes to choose from, and having them all in DS is a bit messy. I can see the point of not having the sorcerer with the idea of allowing the psion to have room to shine.
While I don’t agree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made, it’s absolutely their right to make those decisions. And fundamentally, you’re in charge of what goes on at your game table, so do what you want. No matter what rules set you use, I’ll just be glad if you’re playing Dark Sun.
Best advice of all. I'm mainly interested in the material to do a 3e conversion of some materials from my old Dark Sun game. From what I'm hearing now (without having said issues in my hands yet), I think I may be using a combination of the Dragon/Dungeon materials, Athas.org's materials (especially for the half-giant), and maybe my own thoughts.
Dave, if you have a moment, I do have a question. I'm not sure you have an answer, since this ties into the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Basically, I'm wondering if you have any insight on why the half-giant was approached the way it was for 3e, especially in regards to its rotating alignment.
Also, I have a question for anyone with the issue of Dragon.
How are gladiators handled? Is there a prestige class, or do you just use the base fighter class, or is there some other option?
Thanks in advance.
This is going from bad to ridiculous! Poor guy! Well you can be certain I won't sell any of my stuff to Dragon...I’m the guy who wrote the Dark Sun rules.
Welcome aboard.
My original manuscript had a weapon breakage rule that didn’t see print. Without it, I’m not sure that there’s much point to the different weapon materials, because character wealth will quickly ascend beyond the point where inferior weapons matter.
Whether the PCs have the funds, its the DM who controls the availability of such items. The PC could be walking around with a king's ransom in his pockets, but if the selling and owning of metal weapons is stricty controlled by the city states (and such items considered priceless in the wastes), then it wouldn't matter much.
The published armor rules are also much different than the ones in my manuscript. I wrote some detailed “hot weather”rules that were punishing to PCs who wore heavy armor. The published rules don’t provide a disincentive for wearing heavy armor; a typical PC will be able to afford iron full plate easily by 7th or 8th level. If you want a traditional Dark Sun game where most PCs are lightly armored, consider adding some teeth to the Heat Dangers section on page 303 of the DMG and send the metal armor prices through the roof.
First, I don't have anyone in my DS who can even make some of the full sets of metal armor. Such items are simply beyond the knowledge of the few metalsmiths in the tablelands. Other than that, I've simply upped the perceived temperatures by one catagory without changing the effects themselves.
No matter what rules set you use, I’ll just be glad if you’re playing Dark Sun.
In the end, that's all that matters ;)
Let's create things that represent ourself and the fan community. Things that make sence if you take the time to READ the darksun stuff.
Ouch, that hurts. Come on Grum, the fellow just said that most of the major complaints that people have posted about the articles were due to editing (paladins, sorcy, etc). I can even see the justification for some of those editing decisions (even if I do not agree with them) in the 3e motto of 'options, not restrictions'.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It's not often that I see a designer talk about what the editor changed, let alone show some disagreement with that editor. However, I think this is tactfully and professionally done, and it has brought great insight.
Yeah, loved it myself.
However, one thing lately bugs me, and that is that there are an awful lot of spellcasting or psionic classes to choose from, and having them all in DS is a bit messy. I can see the point of not having the sorcerer with the idea of allowing the psion to have room to shine.
Yeah, having issue with that myself, going to balance it out by killing the whole magic/divine/psionic shop on every corner nonsense along with the whole XP/CR/must have x amount of crap at y level nonsense, course I'm shooting more for a D20 Dark Sun and less for a D&D Dark Sun.
Basically, I'm wondering if you have any insight on why the half-giant was approached the way it was for 3e, especially in regards to its rotating alignment.
Wouldn't mind knowing this myself, pretty dumbdown version of the big bad HG that most people know and love.
How are gladiators handled? Is there a prestige class, or do you just use the base fighter class, or is there some other option?
Don't have the mag yet.
But I do believe they are just fighters if I heard correctly.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Wouldn't mind knowing this myself, pretty dumbdown version of the big bad HG that most people know and love.
My guess - potentially another "bad seed" of an Editor, who had no clue what Dark Sun was about, thought the race needed changes, and took out the nerf-bat of weakening.
Going to be awhile for me to consume it, but I wanted to say this, the artwork is damn awesome, probably not on the damn awesome scale as Brom's and some of Baxa's, but up there none the less.
Kudos!
I'm really hoping what was done to dwarves was more on the editorial side and less on the Noonan side, cause what they did was just plain bad. "Most dwarves worship one of the dragon kings"?!
Did we not read the history of Dark Sun at all? heh. That Borys man, he was such a great guy for almost wiping the dwarves out.
On a lighter note, I'm starting to like the elans and like the fluff of the aarakocra.
So far not as bad as I thought on the races other than the dwarf thing so far, but they could have done alot better IMO.
P.S. Optional rule or not, Dark Sun and psionics go hand in hand. If you aren't running Dark Sun with psionics then you aren't running Dark Sun, period. The whole optional rule of taking psionics out is a big time no no as far as I'm concerned.
P.P.S. The Dragon conversion at least got one thing right though. They call their barbarians barbarians. ;)
:D
Heh.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
As someone mentioned upthread, I'm peeking in every once in a while to see what people think of what we've done. I'll be happy to respond to specific questions and criticisms a bit later, when more posters are operating off of actual knowledge of what was printed in the magazines rather than worrying about something they haven't read, yet. Undoubtedbly some of you have read the issues in question, but it still seems like (especially with Dragon) the issues haven't made it to all corners of the world yet.
I'm still waiting for Dragon #317/Dungeon #108, let alone the latest issues, so I don't imagine I'll see this article in print for 12 weeks yet.
Originally posted by The Gryphon
I'm still waiting for Dragon #317/Dungeon #108, let alone the latest issues, so I don't imagine I'll see this article in print for 12 weeks yet.
We have Dragon #317 but no #318 yet. Although Dungeon #109 has been out for a couple of weeks here so #110 can't be far away. Bizarro.
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
I’m the guy who wrote the Dark Sun rules. I was as surprised as anyone by some of what I read in Dragon #319. And I strongly disagree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made.
It’s their right to make those decisions—they bought my work fair and square. But if you’re starting a Dark Sun game, you might find my perspective useful. I’ve run 3E Dark Sun since late 1999, playing out of three-ring binders, and it’s far and away my favorite setting. Along the way I’ve had plenty of opportunities to goof up as DM—and in the process learn how the core rules and the Dark Sun setting interact.
Um, ouch...sounds like whoever did the editing did not know much about DS at all.
Classes: While I could, in theory, see monks, sorcerers, and paladins in DS, they're require such extensive re-writes that they'd be entirely new classes.
Weapons & Armor: You're right, without the weapon-break and heat rules, this really turned into an enormous waste of space.
From the sound of it, your original conversion was a truer DS conversion, but the final edited version ended up more like D&D plays in a sandbox...
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
Weapons
My original manuscript had a weapon breakage rule that didn’t see print.
In my playtests and my ongoing campaign, I got satisfying results if PCs start with obsidian/stone, bone, or bronze weapons and have to contend with inferior weapons and breakage for the first few levels of the campaign. Then the PCs earn their metal weapons, but they still have to worry about breakage when they’re unlucky or facing sundering enemies. If your Dark Sun game derives a similar result, I think you’ll enjoy it immensely.
The breakage rules are of special interest for our community. Could you share it with us?
Perhaps you could post your version somewhere, or at least the missing excerpts, once this Dragon has reached full circulation -- mabey next month? It seems everyone would be interested in seeing the details of what you wrote.
Thank you - Joe
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Um, ouch...sounds like whoever did the editing did not know much about DS at all.
I don't think that is the case really. I believe that the editors were making the rules more broad-based so that they would appeal to a larger crowd of folks.
My 2cp.
@WotC_Dave
Thanks for the insight!
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
I’m the guy who wrote the Dark Sun rules. I was as surprised as anyone by some of what I read in Dragon #319. And I strongly disagree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made.
It’s their right to make those decisions—they bought my work fair and square.
Gosh.. they perverted it all over??
Hum... well.. as someone else said, suspend the hanging... we have changed our prime target...
Jokes aside, I'm have to say that I relieved to see that not everyone has been brainwashed by that damned "spacial hamsters". Did I said jokes aside? Well..
Thank you Dave for telling us what really happened, to know the truth may no relieve the pain.. either justifies.
Originally posted by WotC_Dave
But if you’re starting a Dark Sun game, you might find my perspective useful. I’ve run 3E Dark Sun since late 1999, playing out of three-ring binders, and it’s far and away my favorite setting. Along the way I’ve had plenty of opportunities to goof up as DM—and in the process learn how the core rules and the Dark Sun setting interact.
[/b]
Yours perspective useful? Of course.. I'm going to use it as inspiration and directives..
Originally posted by Ground_State Johnny
I don't think that is the case really. I believe that the editors were making the rules more broad-based so that they would appeal to a larger crowd of folks.
And, in all fairness, this may be what the goal was. From a design perspective, you run across a couple of different outlooks.
The first outlook is that one designs for the existing Dark Sun fans. After all, these will be the people who will be buying the products primarily. This route is one where you stay true to the world as much as possible, save within a 3rd edition mindset.
The other outlook is to try to stay true to the world, but make the world as compatible as possible with the core books, so as to attract D&D fans to the setting. After all, there is a new generation of fans, and they would like to be able to approach a new setting with the ability to use as much of the PHB as possible.
You can also try to reach a compromise between the two, meeting somewhere in the middle.
You also have to realize what sort of publication you’re doing this for. A couple of magazines is by no means the same as a campaign setting sourcebook with an ongoing product line. From the magazine standpoint, this was a one-shot.
When Dragonlance was brought into 3rd edition by Sovereign Press and WotC, we had a few situations rise up where we had setting mechanics vs. D&D mechanics. Having Sov. Press writing the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and having the license for the ongoing DL product line, we are lucky that we had people who loved the setting writing it.
Still, compromises to the main D&D rules were made. For example, the sorcerer and mystic from Dragonlance’s 5th age materials had certain rules to them. Sorcerers only affected non-living things, and drew spells from “schools” (i.e. aeromancy, cryomancy, etc.) for example. A decision was made to use the PHB sorcerer for this class. Note that the PHB sorcerer has a familiar, which goes against the non-living part of the previous DL sorcerer.
I’ve always felt that this decision was made so as to mesh with the PHB more. Luckily, we were able to capture much of the feel of the 5th age sorcerer, by creating an Academy Sorcerer prestige class, which you can see in Age of Mortals.
Game design is a tricky thing. How many of us can say that we agree with gaming products 100%. How many of us agreed with the 2e presentation of Dark Sun 100%? How many of us can say that we agree with Athas.org’s materials 100%, or with Dragon’s?
Point is, no matter what you do, you’re not going to please everyone. While some of us who know Dark Sun from 2e may disagree on a few points from Dragon, you may find that there are new players who never heard of Dark Sun who will find the article to be quite cool. Then they will want to know more, and then they’ll want to learn about the classic campaign setting. The end result is new fandom, and the setting is kept alive.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Welcome aboard.
Ouch, that hurts. Come on Grum, the fellow just said that most of the major complaints that people have posted about the articles were due to editing (paladins, sorcy, etc). I can even see the justification for some of those editing decisions (even if I do not agree with them) in the 3e motto of 'options, not restrictions'.
Woah Mach, I'm not speaking about the man who wrote the rules, but to do one who scrapped the rules.
Guess it's time to refocus the lynch mob on Mona since he is editor in chief.
>>>
As much as I'd appreciate the increase in salary that would come from being named Editor-in-Chief of Dragon, I'd prefer to keep my sanity and personal life, at least for now.
Point your lynch mob elsewhere, please.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
DUNGEON Magazine
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Ok, after reading the fluff on dwarves and checking out the elans I had too stop for a bit.
I'm really hoping what was done to dwarves was more on the editorial side and less on the Noonan side, cause what they did was just plain bad. "Most dwarves worship one of the dragon kings"?!
Did we not read the history of Dark Sun at all? heh. That Borys man, he was such a great guy for almost wiping the dwarves out.
Did you see the mention about dwarves and their hair color? How did that error get past the editors? At least I hope that is an error.
Tzarevitch
Originally posted by Ground_State Johnny
I don't think that is the case really. I believe that the editors were making the rules more broad-based so that they would appeal to a larger crowd of folks.
My 2cp.
@WotC_Dave
Thanks for the insight!
Setting rules aren't supposed to be broad-based, they are supposed to be specific to the setting. We wanted generic we'd all play a single officially sponsored setting
The whole point of why some people like a particular setting but not another setting is because they are different. This is particularly true of Dark Sun. Most of us like it so much because it is so different.
Tzarevitch
Originally posted by Erik Mona
>>>
Guess it's time to refocus the lynch mob on Mona since he is editor in chief.
>>>
As much as I'd appreciate the increase in salary that would come from being named Editor-in-Chief of Dragon, I'd prefer to keep my sanity and personal life, at least for now.
Point your lynch mob elsewhere, please.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
DUNGEON Magazine
I think most of the complaints are coming from Dark Sun's treatment in the Dragon article. Actually, I though the Dungeon Article was very good. It was a great idea pushing the timeline into the future. Not only does it preserve the ability to use the material that already exists for the setting but it reinforces how hard it is to make lasting changes on Athas.
Tzarevitch
Originally posted by Ground_State Johnny
I don't think that is the case really. I believe that the editors were making the rules more broad-based so that they would appeal to a larger crowd of folks.
Heh, I'm reminded of an account of a conversation the director of Hellboy had with studio heads. The studio heads apparently asked if hellboy couldn't just look like a normal person but with red skin, or if hellboy could have a companion puppy with red skin. You know, so as to make the movie appealing to a larger audience. *snort*
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Erik Mona
>>>
Guess it's time to refocus the lynch mob on Mona since he is editor in chief.
>>>
As much as I'd appreciate the increase in salary that would come from being named Editor-in-Chief of Dragon, I'd prefer to keep my sanity and personal life, at least for now.
Point your lynch mob elsewhere, please.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
DUNGEON Magazine
My bad, thought you were the main man on both sides.
/me refocuses his lynch mob to Matthew Sernett Editor in Chief of Dragon
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
Heh, I'm reminded of an account of a conversation the director of Hellboy had with studio heads. The studio heads apparently asked if hellboy couldn't just look like a normal person but with red skin, or if hellboy could have a companion puppy with red skin. You know, so as to make the movie appealing to a larger audience. *snort*
Regards,
Eric Anondson
That was a great movie btw.
Glad they stuck with the original idea instead of making it "appeal to a larger audience".
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Glad they stuck with the original idea instead of making it "appeal to a larger audience".
I presume the parallel was intended ;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
I presume the parallel was intended ;)
;)
Post by Dandread/Matthew Sernett responding to this issue.
More or less stating that some items are being taken out of context (sorcerers hiding as wizards mostly due to their freedom in Tyr, most of the time, they disguise as psions).
Weapon Breakage was removed because the monk was included.
Timeline caused much of the "unaware" situation with Dave.
[ Reiella Comments following ]
At least, Sunder is still useful, possibly more so on Athas. Since weapons don't break on their own merit.
Note to self: Get a subscription!
(1) The staff at Paizo Publishing are friends and colleagues of staffers here at Wizards and in RPG R&D. We work with them very closely, and we game with many of them regularly. We all have the best interests of the D&D community at heart, and we each bring our perspectives to the work we do.
(2) As per Wizards' agreement with Paizo Publishing, RPG R&D reviews and approves ALL magazine content (art and text) before it sees print. Nothing is printed without some authority at Wizards signing off on it.
(3) The editors at Paizo Publishing are not merely copyeditors but also developers and substantive editors. (It's been so since before I worked on the magazines, during my tenure on the magazines, and ever since.) Magazine articles and adventures endure the same rigorous development and editing processes as our RPG products, only the magazines operate on an accelerated schedule.
Obviously, it is difficult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, but we have great trust and confidence in the Paizo editors' ability to support and elevate the D&D experience, provide useful content to our shared audience, and entertain the masses with their wild monkey antics.
Thanks for reading!
Chris Perkins
Originally posted by christopher_perkins
Hi! As you debate the merits of the editorial changes to Dave Noonan's Dark Sun article in Dragon Magazine, please consider the following three points:
(1) The staff at Paizo Publishing are friends and colleagues of staffers here at Wizards and in RPG R&D. We work with them very closely, and we game with many of them regularly. We all have the best interests of the D&D community at heart, and we each bring our perspectives to the work we do.
Which is a Good Thing(tm).
(2) As per Wizards' agreement with Paizo Publishing, RPG R&D reviews and approves ALL magazine content (art and text) before it sees print. Nothing is printed without some authority at Wizards signing off on it.
Which also is a Good Thing(tm).
(3) The editors at Paizo Publishing are not merely copyeditors but also developers and substantive editors. (It's been so since before I worked on the magazines, during my tenure on the magazines, and ever since.) Magazine articles and adventures endure the same rigorous development and editing processes as our RPG products, only the magazines operate on an accelerated schedule.
And yet..... somehow what was released as "Dark Sun" material totally missed the mark.
Obviously, it is difficult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, but we have great trust and confidence in the Paizo editors' ability to support and elevate the D&D experience, provide useful content to our shared audience, and entertain the masses with their wild monkey antics.
Diddifult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, yes. And I'm first to step up and say that Dark Sun is riddled with mistakes. However.... Even the parts which *all* the Dark Sun products before had agreed on, the Dragon writeup couldn't seem to get right. As I said, instead of releasing Dark Sun, they released Bizarro Dark Sun - it's definitely not even remotely the same world. Some things sound familiar but are radically different. Now, if this was in the hopes to make Dark Sun more mainstream, that's all well and good, but part of the fun of Dark Sun is that it is different. And somehow, many Dave Noonian's designs for the article were butchered and either totally rewritten or discarded. Which tends to make be think that someone seriously dropped the ball somewhere.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Diffifult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, yes. And I'm first to step up and say that Dark Sun is riddled with mistakes. However.... Even the parts which *all* the Dark Sun products before had agreed on, the Dragon writeup couldn't seem to get right. As I said, instead of releasing Dark Sun, they released Bizarro Dark Sun - it's definitely not even remotely the same world. Some things sound familiar but are radically different. Now, if this was in the hopes to make Dark Sun more mainstream, that's all well and good, but part of the fun of Dark Sun is that it is different. And somehow, many Dave Noonian's designs for the article were butchered and either totally rewritten or discarded. Which tends to make be think that someone seriously dropped the ball somewhere.
Amen brother.
So basically there will be two lynch mobs. :D
/me creates another lynch mob and directs it towards WotC staff
I'm sorry, all joking aside, but you guys, whoever all you guys are, really did some poor work with putting this together.
I'm not even refering to the mechanics either. I'm refering to most of the fluff. Most of it is pure crap, period. Dwarves, by their very nature of what happened to them in history would never worship any of the Sorcerer Monarchs on a massive racial level like you have it described in Dragon.
That is just one major example too, most of the fluff is going to have to be ignored for the majority of us who actually want to run a *real* Dark Sun campaign.
Obviously, someone dropped the ball and didn't do their homework on this, plain and simple.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
That is just one major example too, most of the fluff is going to have to be ignored for the majority of us who actually want to run a *real* Dark Sun campaign.
Obviously, someone dropped the ball and didn't do their homework on this, plain and simple.
Well, if you listen to some people, the Dragon/Dungeon articles are the "new" real Darksun sanatized for the masses; if you use anything else, you're just a dinosaur living in the past.
'excuse me, I need to go munch on some Jurassic ferns...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Well, if you listen to some people, the Dragon/Dungeon articles are the "new" real Darksun sanatized for the masses; if you use anything else, you're just a dinosaur living in the past.
'excuse me, I need to go munch on some Jurassic ferns...
I've never condone ignorance, and I'm not going to start now...
:D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I've never condone ignorance, and I'm not going to start now...
:D
Originally posted by Porkchops
Hmmm, read the Dragon mag. It's official, their new conversion just make baby Kalak cry.
That's ok though, athas.org's version is official too and it doesn't make baby Kalak cry.
:D
I figured I'd ask about it first before demanding everybody write nastygrams asking about "i heard such and such was cut out/changed." Especially because everybody so far has put differences aside and remained remarkably civil about this.
Originally posted by Porkchops
Hmmm, read the Dragon mag. It's official, their new conversion just make baby Kalak cry.
What do you mean with that? make baby kalank cry??
Originally posted by christopher_perkins
Obviously, it is difficult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, but we have great trust and confidence in the Paizo editors' ability to support and elevate the D&D experience, provide useful content to our shared audience, and entertain the masses with their wild monkey antics.
Yes, but may I humbly submit, if you try to appeal to everyone, very frequently you'll end up pleasing no one. One of Dark Sun's strengths was its distinctiveness. By making it more generic, you've lost the reason why it was so appealing in the first place.
You know in Hollywood when they'd convert something from someother media, like comic books or classic novels, it'd frequently end up doing terribly. Look at League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and then look at Spiderman. Which did well? Which did poorly? Spiderman did a heck of a lot better. Why? Because they respected the material, and respected the fans. The fans in turn recommended it to others.
Think what would have happened if Peter Jackson had gotten the rights to Lord Of The Rings but made a generic fantasy movie instead.
But if we apply to this Paizo's Dark Sun Conversion, you've respected neither the material, nor the fans. How do expect us to recommend this to anyone?
Originally posted by beyowulf
But if we apply to this Paizo's Dark Sun Conversion, you've respected neither the material, nor the fans. How do expect us to recommend this to anyone?
Couldn't have said it better.
Rather than focusing on the people behind the content, let's focus instead on the content itself. What did you guys like or dislike about the issues? Why do you feel that way?
I just picked up my issues today, and I'm looking forward to the discussion.
--Your friendly neighborhood WizO.
Mine are all merely in jest and weren't meant to be taken seriously.
Agreed though, I'd rather see more discussion on what we like and dislike then just gripes geared towards the designers.
Originally posted by beyowulf
Yes, but may I humbly submit, if you try to appeal to everyone, very frequently you'll end up pleasing no one. One of Dark Sun's strengths was its distinctiveness. By making it more generic, you've lost the reason why it was so appealing in the first place.
You know in Hollywood when they'd convert something from someother media, like comic books or classic novels, it'd frequently end up doing terribly. Look at League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and then look at Spiderman. Which did well? Which did poorly? Spiderman did a heck of a lot better. Why? Because they respected the material, and respected the fans. The fans in turn recommended it to others.
Think what would have happened if Peter Jackson had gotten the rights to Lord Of The Rings but made a generic fantasy movie instead.
But if we apply to this Paizo's Dark Sun Conversion, you've respected neither the material, nor the fans. How do expect us to recommend this to anyone?
I second that.
I would also point out that Peter Jackson has taken some liberties in Lord of the Rings, some of which displeased hardcore fans as well. However, he obviously put a lot of effort to stick to most of the story and material, and obviously did his job right, because the vast majority of true lord of the rings fans, even amongst the purists, enjoyed the movies, though obviously not everyone.
However, this is certainly not the case for Dragon's work on Dark Sun, as none of the fans here seem to approve of the conversion. You can maintain that hardcore fans won't be please when some content is diluted, but you can't believe ALL of them will when the changes are supposedly not that negative.
Anyways...
Nice to see someone isn't kissing ass to these guys.
How could you guys miss some of this stuff like with the dwarves?
I do like the new timeline though.
I can respect the idea that this is "Dark Sun flavored D&D" rather than "Dark Sun 3.5" and I guess in that it is successful. I just wonder though, who is going to use this except the old Dark Sun fans? I'm willing to bet that number would be small. There was even 2 or 3 months of adds to lead up to this, who were those adds for? The people who never heard of Dark Sun? I find that unlikley.
Maybe this bothers me so bad less so that it was a butchering of one of my favorite settings but more so because I almost feel duped. I was expecting Dark Sun 3.5, I didn't get it.
Am I trying to be mean to the Dungeon & Dragon folks? Nah. I don't hate them for it or anything, in fact I just bought a 3 year subcription. I think it's important for them to know people are upset about this so perhaps, if they decide to do another setting they may recosider the goals.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
My bad, thought you were the main man on both sides.
/me refocuses his lynch mob to Matthew Sernett Editor in Chief of Dragon
Hmm. I have to ask you. Do you have a problem with Erik Mona's editing of the three DS articles (DMG, Monster, and Adventure) in Dungeon #110?
Hmm. I have to ask you. Do you have a problem with Erik Mona's editing of the three DS articles (DMG, Monster, and Adventure) in Dungeon #110?
As asked by your friendly neighborhood WizO_Drake (hmmm, he's gotta be from Athas ;)), let's turn the attention away from discussions about the individuals involved and rather to the articles themselves.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I have to admit, my last statements are very harsh, but it does not change my feeling about this thread, or those other negative threads in this messageboards and EN World. But hey, if you're okay with my being disappointed at the fans -- in general -- as you are disappointed in magazine's Dark Sun treatment, then we're even.
BTW, is Athas.org going to support David Noonan's Dark Sun or will I find an official letter of denouncement posted on their web site soon?
Hmm...
Ok, I have to ask, what exactly did you expect? Athas.org to abandon the conversion they have put, in all likelihood, thousands of man-hours into, for a conversion they cannot put online, one that has been so edited that even the author strongly disagrees with the changes?
Ok, I have to ask, what exactly did you expect? Athas.org to abandon the conversion they have put, in all likelihood, thousands of man-hours into, for a conversion they cannot put online, one that has been so edited that even the author strongly disagrees with the changes?
Nor is there really a need to denounce the articles either. It won't be the first time a setting has had two official stances on something as well as two viable and different rules systems (I come from a long line of MERP and other ICE products).
Originally posted by christopher_perkins
Hi! As you debate the merits of the editorial changes to Dave Noonan's Dark Sun article in Dragon Magazine, please consider the following three points:
(1) The staff at Paizo Publishing are friends and colleagues of staffers here at Wizards and in RPG R&D. We work with them very closely, and we game with many of them regularly. We all have the best interests of the D&D community at heart, and we each bring our perspectives to the work we do.
(2) As per Wizards' agreement with Paizo Publishing, RPG R&D reviews and approves ALL magazine content (art and text) before it sees print. Nothing is printed without some authority at Wizards signing off on it.
(3) The editors at Paizo Publishing are not merely copyeditors but also developers and substantive editors. (It's been so since before I worked on the magazines, during my tenure on the magazines, and ever since.) Magazine articles and adventures endure the same rigorous development and editing processes as our RPG products, only the magazines operate on an accelerated schedule.
Obviously, it is difficult to provide content that every reader will completely enjoy, but we have great trust and confidence in the Paizo editors' ability to support and elevate the D&D experience, provide useful content to our shared audience, and entertain the masses with their wild monkey antics.
Thanks for reading!
Chris Perkins
Chris,
Thanks for chiming in. It is good to see folks from WotC post occasionaly. Also thank you David - it is appreciated.
One major question though and perhaps one of the two of you can get the marketing people to chime in here - what is the status of the Official fan sites?
There was a contract (under Butler's watch) that specified that only the Official fansites could publish Official 3rd party information on the setting, under certain restrictions. And that WotC could revoke this at any time (hasn't been done yet) and that if WotC published anything it would supercede anything from the Official fansites and they (WotC) would continue to support the setting again.
How does the new arrangement with Paizo fit into this? They are clearly not a subsidy of WotC and thus would be considered 3rd party by anyone even casually looking at this issue.
I know that the Official fansites' owners have been trying to approach WotC on this issue but have not really gotten anywhere with it. It is my assumption that this is WotC's marketing group does not consider it of sufficient priority to get attention at the moment.
what is the status of the Official fan sites?
Not that I can answer that for you, nor am I trying to pick on you specifically, but what's the hangup about the 'official status'? I've noticed on several threads (here and elsewhere) of this subject being brought up by you, I'm just very interested to know why you think it matters so heavily. Would it really matter one way or the other which answer you received. If your playing a DS game, and whatever ruleset/setting base you use gets the 'official smackdown', does that mean your not going to use it? I mean, really, the title is simple that. A title. Note, I'm not up for any kind of debate on what is more official, etc, etc,. Its a boring topic and one that means only slightly more to me than the current status of side streat panhandlers in south Singapore. I'm simply asking why you think its such a major issue.
Originally posted by Korvar
In theory, it could be important because it might mean that athas.org could have to pack up shop.
I wouldn't worry then. SotSM did not cause Beyond the Moons to shut down (for an earlier parallel with the SJ setting). At most, I expect athas.org to set up a section to put stuff related to the dungeon articles in, like BtM did for SotSM, and it will very quickly be forgotten.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Nor is there really a need to denounce the articles either. It won't be the first time a setting has had two official stances on something as well as two viable and different rules systems (I come from a long line of MERP and other ICE products).
Right. Just seems that RangerREG expects athas.org to drop their own conversion, or be shut down/official status removed entirely.
I don't see the problem with the two official sources. Maybe I'm simply a retard and don't know it . . .
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Sorry, it just ruffles my feathers that (and no, I'm really not trying to pick out anyone) someone can't grasp the entire 'two official sources' aspect.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100%. Having two official sources doesn't bother me in the least either. Of course, it just might cause a head or two to explode...:headexplo
Nor is there really a need to denounce the articles either. It won't be the first time a setting has had two official stances on something as well as two viable and different rules systems (I come from a long line of MERP and other ICE products).
Okay, back to the articles, then.
Whomever was responsible for the article in Dragon, as it appeared in Dragon (so no one's feelings get hurt), should be looked at very critically by the editor-in-chief of that magazine when considering conversions.
While tweaking a world is fine, ala 1e to 2e DS, completely changing the fundamentals of the game and the pieces that make that world unique or different is just stupid. Those things that make Athas unique are what drew people to Dark Sun in the first place.
Dark Sun, and you could argue D&D, are cult-like in membership. No one walks into a bookstore and says: "Huh...what's this book? D. And. D? What's that? What a strange and wonderful novel: I think I'll read it!"
No, people start playing D&D because their friends do, and because they see people playing it and it looks like fun (or they were seven, like me, and took mom and dad's unused copy so that they'd have something to do on the school bus - no dice on that ride, just pure imagination). Dark Sun is the same way: new people are brought in by people who have played it before and think it was "cool."
Most people will stick with what they know. Oh, sure, you'll have a few new people come in on their own, bored with the campaign worlds they're currently in, but the majority will be brought in by people who have played the world before and know it well.
In conclusion, Dark Sun is proliferated by the fans of Dark Sun. Call us "creative cancer," if you like, but, again to whomever is responsible for that finished product, do not alienate those who are most loyal to your product. So, if the editors at Paizo are responsible, I would recommend the Wizard staff to be very careful when in negotiations with them or submitting articles of this nature, possibly even stating: "The bold sections cannot be changed or the flavor of the world (paladins, sorcerers hiding as wizards, etc) will be destroyed. I don't want to be flamed/lynched by french-canadians, so try to keep what I've written as intact as possible. If you're going to change it, let me know what the changes are."
Yeah, I know how publishing works, but still, guys: HAIRY dwarves on Athas?! Come on.
I would also like a wookiee.
Originally posted by Porkchops
You know, what this Dark Sun conversion really needs is Elminster. And planar travel to the outer planes.
I would also like a wookiee.
Ninjas...and jedi!
Originally posted by The Gryphon
I'm still waiting for Dragon #317/Dungeon #108, let alone the latest issues, so I don't imagine I'll see this article in print for 12 weeks yet.
Originally posted by Kamelion
We have Dragon #317 but no #318 yet. Although Dungeon #109 has been out for a couple of weeks here so #110 can't be far away. Bizarro.
That's not the worst part. The oldest magazines i'm waiting for are in my local newsagent, but i'm a subscriber and don't have them.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Ninjas...and jedi!
Or even, dare I say it, Ninja Wookies.
Originally posted by beyowulf
Or even, dare I say it, Ninja Wookies.
Jedi Ewoks! I mean, if that little green geezer can bust some moves in AotC, then those Ewoks should be able whoop butt!:bounce:
Originally posted by Mach2.5
As asked by your friendly neighborhood WizO_Drake (hmmm, he's gotta be from Athas ;))
Maaaaaybe! Although people keep saying I'm a mallard. :sad:
I will say that I am a Dark Sun fan, although I haven't played in years.
Originally posted by Porkchops
I was thinking more along the lines of wookiee bards. With puffy pirate shirts.
99 Bottles of Rum, in Roar-Flat?:D
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Hmm. I have to ask you. Do you have a problem with Erik Mona's editing of the three DS articles (DMG, Monster, and Adventure) in Dungeon #110?
Don't have it yet.
Once I get it, I'll be glad to share my criticisms about it.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Not that I can answer that for you, nor am I trying to pick on you specifically, but what's the hangup about the 'official status'? I've noticed on several threads (here and elsewhere) of this subject being brought up by you, I'm just very interested to know why you think it matters so heavily. Would it really matter one way or the other which answer you received. If your playing a DS game, and whatever ruleset/setting base you use gets the 'official smackdown', does that mean your not going to use it? I mean, really, the title is simple that. A title. Note, I'm not up for any kind of debate on what is more official, etc, etc,. Its a boring topic and one that means only slightly more to me than the current status of side streat panhandlers in south Singapore. I'm simply asking why you think its such a major issue.
For one because I'm on the d20 (i.e. 3.5 development) team at Birthright.net and we (the "Official" fan site for Birthright) can have the same issues as Athas.org.
For two because I have engaged with discussions with the "Official" fan site 'owners' for many of the sites (including Athas.org) and they have been concerned with their changing 'status' since before the Dragon #315 issue came out and it has yet to have been resolved with WotC
For three, I would like to see some appreciation/recognition for those who have worked so deligently on the darksun conversion at Athas.org from WotC. Come on it is the fans that have kept the setting going and many seem to have forgotten this in the feeling of business decisions. While I don't necessarily agree with the athas.org product, in some cases I prefer Noonan's, but I do fully agree and support the process followed by Athas.org and this process deserves better than to be set aside because Dragon/Dungeon can publish a printed version while Athas.org is forbidden from doing that.
From what I can figure out the reason that the "official" fan site concept was started for old worlds was so that WotC could keep interest in them in case they wanted to pick them up again at a later time without having to provide any real resources towards generating/maintaining interest. That is they (WotC) got something for free out of this. Now this trust is being stretched and the fans are aparently being told that they really don't count.
I hope that explains my deep interest and feelings on this issue. I really hate seeing people mistreated and dismissed in value.
Originally posted by WizO_Drake
Maaaaaybe! Although people keep saying I'm a mallard. :sad:
I will say that I am a Dark Sun fan, although I haven't played in years.
You have a more Athasian-sounding name than "WizO_Jedi" who's been around here for quite a while
And you post more frequently
one more time, I'm going to have a carebear moment. Seriously, guys. Have some cotton candy:
And a weird jell-o mold:
:88E:
Carebear stare!
It's payback time. Muahahahaha!
All I got to say about Dragon #319 is that I was overall displeased and that I can't believe this much disrespect was pointed at one of TSR's highest grossing settings back in the 90s.
I'm not going to touch mechanics much, I know why the mechanics were done the way they were, and while I totally disagree with Half Giant and think that it could be done much better to fit the whole "created for the masses" mentality, it's just a waste of time to rant about these things since most of them had to go where they went in order to stay within the mentality that WotC/Paizo/et al wanted. So you will only see comments on fluff mostly.
Without further ado...
Likes:
Aarakocra has to be, by far, the most well done race in the Dragon conversion, for the simple fact that it's hitting the proverbial nail on the head. Every section was extremely well done, and while I said I wouldn't comment on the mechanics I will say that the mechanics for them were well done as well.
This quote got me most of all: "Those aarakocras confronted with the theocracies of the city-states pay only lip service to the notion of worshipping the dragon-kings." This is dead on IMO.
This is one of the few things that made me keep reading and not have nothing but disgust for what was done to the setting.
Elans: Nice, new, and interesting addition to the setting, bout all I have to say about these guys, I will be using them in my conversion too.
Elves was done well too, pretty close, if not right on with the original material.
Half Elves: Same as elves.
Halflings is ok, though I don't like the fact that you tiptoed around the whole cannibal thing.
Maenads are another new and interesting addition to the DS world that I will probably be using as well.
Muls: The second most well done race in the mag. Especially mechanic wise.
Pterrans: On par with Elves and the rest, pretty close, if not dead on to original material.
Thri-Kreen: Same as above, close if not dead on to original material.
Barbarian: Glad you didn't fall into the renaming trap on this one.
Monk: Like how you included these.
The rest of the class changes I can either tolerate or don't like.
I'm skipping weapons only because it's not a major concern with me and I was only dissapointed a little in this area.
Dislikes:
Dwarves: Like my rant in a previous post, I simply don't think any one read the original material on dwarves, either that or they ignored it. For the most part it's good or dead on, till you get to the religion part anyways. Sorry, but dwarves, whether it's 300 years into the future or not, would never move to worshipping the dragon-kings on a fully racial level, over that of the elements, namely fire. There might be a few rare ones out there that do this, but they are oddities, not in the majority. You simply didn't do your homework or decided to ignore original material (for whatever strange reason, bad idea nonetheless).
Half Giants: The whole point of HGs is now simply lost with this conversion, and simply giving them the ability to be "stronger" than their size was just a cop out in order to stay as close to the original material as possible IMO. You should have just simply made them large creatures with the giant type like athas.org and many other conversions have them.
Bard: That fact that bards from other worlds are really not all that different than bards on Athas is another ball dropping or ignoring episode. You simply just did not respect the original material on this one. No matter what reason you had, what you did is wrong IMO.
Paladin: Paladins do not belong on Athas! Period! I know why you added this, but it was a bad idea IMO and simply kills too much of the flavor of Dark Sun. If you really wanted them in, you could have taken Noonan's and many other's ideas on a elemental warrior PrC that is against slavery, or something similar.
Including Paladins is what dissapointed me most of all.
Sorcerer: I don't think that these belong in Athas either, but at least you attempted to employ them while staying true to the original material, misreadings or no.
Wizards: Absolutely nothing was done to distinguish Defilers from Preservers on a mechanical level. Another big dissapointment. I understand the balance thing, but you could have done something similar to what we did at athas.org.
Templars: Yet another major dissapointment. Treating them just like clerics is bad design IMO and they should be their own class just like the original material states. Hell even 2e saw that this was a bad idea and brought them back after taking them out.
Some of the equipment and other rules and fluff could have been done a bit better too, but overall I am ok with the changes there.
That's it from me for now, comment away.
Originally posted by entropysoda
Will Dave's Athasian Bard or other unprinted stuff be available online perhaps? Would be great...
Unlikely. Paizo bought the rights to it, changed what he wanted for the article, and released what was released in it. The rest of the things not included are most likely still the intellectual property of Dragon/Dungeon, and thus unavailable for even Dave Noonian to release online. Unless I'm horribly mistaken.
Nah, I'm just kidding. LOL
Lush in difference, challenge, inspiring art...really amazing.
Likewise the original 1st Ed Forgotten Realms boxed set was extremely good. But well, look where the Realms has went
Detailing the heck out of a *mysterious fantasy world of wonder* is catastrophic to *imagination*. ALas it's hard ot see it going any other way, but for creative gamers, the amount of rules/info ends up being a straight jacket.Making a bland conversion so that it is easier to blend and adapt is self defeating. The whole joy of some settings, such as Dark Sun , Ravenloft and Spelljammer, is that they ARE *very* different. There aren't massive game system changes, just tweaks, and alterations, which are part of the settings' enjoyment. Mess with that, or leave it out, at your peril.
It's like the garbage music that assaults our ears today: the industry woudln't invest in exciting, innovative bands, and stuck to the same old bland "generic" pap...It's not file sharing that is killing music sales, it's the simple fact folk can't abide the garbage that's being pumped out by 99% of the current younger bands, and just want individual, older tunes.
There's a moral there for EVERY facet of the entertainment industry.
Nice try, thanks for working on Dark Sun again, but *PLEASE* have the grit to do proper conversions
Lush in difference, challenge, inspiring art...really amazing.
Couldn't agree with you more (well, okay, I could, but it would be worth the effort - there's only so much agreement in the world without resorting to those emoticons): the art in the original DS book really formed the basis for my own art. Brom's amazing and I kind of like the brooding hopelessness that permeated his work for DS. Just brilliant stuff.
Great analogy with the music. We need more "Radioheads" and less "Limp Bizkuts."
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
We need more "Radioheads" and less "Limp Bizkuts."
Amen to that my brother.
Praise Jeebus.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Xlor, Night: I hate you. I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU!!!
Nah, I'm just kidding. LOL
LOL! Too many jello minis? ;)
We need more "Radioheads" and less "Limp Bizkuts."
I can sit and listen to Fitter Happier all day long (or until it begins to creep me out too much).
We could use a few more Queensryches and Yes's too, but that's just my opinion. Oh, and a few more Dead or Alives. Can't get enough of You Spin Me Right Round ;)
For one because I'm on the d20 (i.e. 3.5 development) team at Birthright.net and we (the "Official" fan site for Birthright) can have the same issues as Athas.org.
Thanks. That actually helps me understand where your coming from a lot more. I was really starting to think you were just pushing for one or the other to be denounced.
Well, as it looks, the articles tried to respect the rights of Athas.org and it looks like Athas.org is going to attempt the same. Doesn't seem much like a big deal though in the end. Only if the IP was actually liscenced out or revived by WOTC would there be any cause to shut down one of the official fansites. If I were you, I wouldn't sweat it much. Everything seems to be working out for the better.
Maaaaaybe! Although people keep saying I'm a mallard.
Well, you know, I just thought the tail feathers were, well, you know, cosplay or something. I didn't want to be rude.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
We could use a few more Queensryches and Yes's too, but that's just my opinion.
I'll give an ahmen to that.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Halflings is ok, though I don't like the fact that you tiptoed around the whole cannibal thing.
I guess the magazine have gotten conservative (or shy) due to past criticisms to support Book of Vile Darkness and something about sexy elves(???), although I believe half of them are ignorant and never examined the articles and adventures in question, nor the "Mature Readers Only" book from WotC. Others are parents. (What! You mean gamers can breed?)
IOW, they don't want to shock this generation's readers.
Dislikes:
Uh-oh.
Dwarves: Like my rant in a previous post, I simply don't think any one read the original material on dwarves, either that or they ignored it. For the most part it's good or dead on, till you get to the religion part anyways. Sorry, but dwarves, whether it's 300 years into the future or not, would never move to worshipping the dragon-kings on a fully racial level, over that of the elements, namely fire. There might be a few rare ones out there that do this, but they are oddities, not in the majority. You simply didn't do your homework or decided to ignore original material (for whatever strange reason, bad idea nonetheless).
I take it this is directed at David Noonan.
Half Giants: The whole point of HGs is now simply lost with this conversion, and simply giving them the ability to be "stronger" than their size was just a cop out in order to stay as close to the original material as possible IMO. You should have just simply made them large creatures with the giant type like athas.org and many other conversions have them.
Refresh my memory, but what is the average height of half-giant?
Bard: That fact that bards from other worlds are really not all that different than bards on Athas is another ball dropping or ignoring episode. You simply just did not respect the original material on this one. No matter what reason you had, what you did is wrong IMO.
Okay, it would help to give us a description of a typical bard of Athas. IOW, give us a point-by-point comparative differences between a 3.5e bard (which looks more like in illusionist-performer now favored by gnomes) and an Athasian version.
Paladin: Paladins do not belong on Athas! Period! I know why you added this, but it was a bad idea IMO and simply kills too much of the flavor of Dark Sun. If you really wanted them in, you could have taken Noonan's and many other's ideas on a elemental warrior PrC that is against slavery, or something similar.
Including Paladins is what dissapointed me most of all.
You'll have to justify this to someone who has never been fully exposed to Dark Sun. I mean in your own words, what is the flavor of Dark Sun?
Wizards: Absolutely nothing was done to distinguish Defilers from Preservers on a mechanical level. Another big dissapointment. I understand the balance thing, but you could have done something similar to what we did at athas.org.
That reminds me, how do you feel about the defiling rules in Dragon #315?
One last question: will your web site be able to support some of the mechanics and campaign information -- if not all -- presented in Noonan/Paizo's Dark Sun?
There is no place for a rigid code of honour in the burning sands beneath the Dark Sun. People will kill you for a drink of water.
And that's just your friends.
There are no organisations of goodly knights striving to right wrongs, save damsels, and serve justice. The Sorcerer-Kings wiped out people like that millenia ago.
There are no knights in shining armour. Who wants to be boiled alive in a metal shell, when the metal is enough to allow you to live the rest of your life in luxury? Do you want to wear a noble's ransom into battle?
There are no gods. Who is a Paladin to pray to? The Elemental Powers? They already have their servitors, the Elemental Priests. And besides, they care no more for Law and Good than do the stones and winds themselves.
, so please, no flaming the newbie.I've played DS since I first started playing roughly 12 years ago (give or take), and I've loved every moment of it. Years passed and the rules changed, I was very much looking forward to all of the conversions that I'd be seeing very soon for all of my favorite settings... but alas there wasn't much usable content available at the time, and for some reason whenever I try to come up with a conversion of my own, I get writer's block to the point where I have to stop.
A few months ago I saw the ad for the converted DS, and like most (if not all of you), I was very excited about getting my favorite setting back in print. Now, I have not seen this new issue yet, but from what I'm hearing, I may not want to see it.
My first thought is on the dwarves, I agree with all of you on this one, someone definately has them confused with something else...not sure what yet, though.
The nerfing of the Half-Giant is just retarded. Personally, I'd just stick with the Half-Ogre from the Savage Species as my HG. Just throw in the alignment switching for role-playing purposes and you have yourself a balanced HG ready for use in DS.
The Paladins of Athas on the other hand have been a facination of mine for some time. My friends and I had worked on some elemental-specific paladins for DS some time ago. We used the old Dragon article "Plethora of Paladins" as a base and went from there (the monk-like Water Paladin was just nasty...). If done right, an Athasian Paladin can definately have a place along with Gladiators and Preservers, but should be handled carefully and only allowed on a limited basis to retain the DS "flavor" if you will.
Bards: That's not the cutthroat, backstabbing (so they actually didn't have that ability, but they should), killing you as you eat your breakfast Bard that I'm used to...dropping the spells and adding Alchemy bonuses for creating poisons should do the job nicely.
I happen to have a special place in my heart for sorcerers, and feel that maybe they don't need any special role-playing rules for them. In DS, a sorcy should just be a modified preserver, no defiling or gathering energy needed because the magic is "in his blood." But this is just my belief, it's totally open for discussion.
I have heard no mention of the advanced beings or any other epic rules yet, are they any listed? I was hoping they would have been released, I have some old characters that need to be converted...and as much as I applaud Athas.org for what they are trying to do....I have alot of disagreements with their rulings.
Dark Sun has been through one major nerf-fest already (Revised Dark Sun anyone?), and it doesn't need another. These are just some of my opinions, I may post more when it's not 6 am and have had less then 3 hours sleep for 4 days
Any questions, comments, or dueling requests? Just e-mail me. Thanks.Originally posted by Vecna00
The Paladins of Athas on the other hand have been a facination of mine for some time. My friends and I had worked on some elemental-specific paladins for DS some time ago. We used the old Dragon article "Plethora of Paladins" as a base and went from there (the monk-like Water Paladin was just nasty...). If done right, an Athasian Paladin can definately have a place along with Gladiators and Preservers, but should be handled carefully and only allowed on a limited basis to retain the DS "flavor" if you will.
You don't by chance remember what issue of Dragon this is in, do you? I might have to dig out the Dragon-CD collection and search for it, since that sounds pretty nifty.
Refresh my memory, but what is the average height of half-giant?
10 to 12 feet tall and weighing in at around 1200 lbs. It actually made for interesting role-playing since a party was often forced to 'leave their half-giant outside'.
Okay, it would help to give us a description of a typical bard of Athas. IOW, give us a point-by-point comparative differences between a 3.5e bard (which looks more like in illusionist-performer now favored by gnomes) and an Athasian version.
Compare a gnomish illusionist performer (3.5 core bard) with a class that mixes a bit of assassin, alchemist, and performer (originally bereft of spells).
Sorry, but to ask that shows at least a slight unawareness of some of the basics of DS. Not to pick on you at all, but a little research on your part (i.e. the most wonderful search function on the boards) wouldn't have hurt much ;)
You'll have to justify this to someone who has never been fully exposed to Dark Sun. I mean in your own words, what is the flavor of Dark Sun?
Hmmm, that's a heck of a summary your asking for. I guess in some ways flavor is interperative, but some of the major themes delt with bluring the lines of morality. Heroes often had to resort to the same tactics of their enemies in order to achieve 'the greater good'. The ends justify the means. A paladin, by its very nature, is about as opposite as you can get from this basic theme.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I guess the magazine have gotten conservative (or shy) due to past criticisms to support Book of Vile Darkness and something about sexy elves(???), although I believe half of them are ignorant and never examined the articles and adventures in question, nor the "Mature Readers Only" book from WotC. Others are parents. (What! You mean gamers can breed?)
IOW, they don't want to shock this generation's readers.
Well, there's a significant difference between showing nudity and proclaiming the wonders and benefits of being evil in the Book of Vile Darkness, and simply stating that Dark Sun Halflings eat people.
Uh-oh.
You asked
I take it this is directed at David Noonan.
If not at Noonian, then at whomever decided to screw up the Dwarves is my guess.
Refresh my memory, but what is the average height of half-giant?
10-12 feet tall, about 3/4 a ton in weight. They are Large creatures, always have been in Dark Sun.
Okay, it would help to give us a description of a typical bard of Athas. IOW, give us a point-by-point comparative differences between a 3.5e bard (which looks more like in illusionist-performer now favored by gnomes) and an Athasian version.
Check the document from athas.org. Or the boxed set for DS1, or DS2. There's more differences than similarities between the two.
You'll have to justify this to someone who has never been fully exposed to Dark Sun. I mean in your own words, what is the flavor of Dark Sun?
You do realize that you are asking something akin to asking a Ravenloft fan why Paladins are a real bad idea in most of the Duchies Ravenloft.
Dark Sun is a world where the bad guys have won. Most of the population congregates around in City-States that are ruled over by immortal, godlike beings referred to as Sorcerer-Kings. These Sorcerer-Kings have a group of "Priests" that are referred to as Templars, whom they can grant divine spells to. Generally speaking, they have an established religion to worship their rulers within each City-State, and many of the Templarates prefer this to be exclusive. Elemental Clerics and Druids generally are arrested or killed for their "heathen" practices, and either hide who or what they are to enter a City-State (Druids usually just avoid the City-States all together). A Paladin would most likely be captured by the Templarate and presented in the town square, either by being hanged, or their head on a spike. Further, Dark Sun is a hot, dry desert world. Paladins generally rely on heavy metal armor. Such practices will make them cook like an oven. As a Paladin is a symbol of what is good and right, they wouldn't stoop to lying about who they are, or hiding as someone/something else. This is but part of the reason why they would not exist on Dark Sun.
That reminds me, how do you feel about the defiling rules in Dragon #315?
I'm saddened that the rules from athas.org weren't used. It feels contrieved to me, something pieced together quickly to put in an article. However, with the right amount of tweaking, I think it could work, especially mixing it with the Taint rules from Unearthed Arcana.
One last question: will your web site be able to support some of the mechanics and campaign information -- if not all -- presented in Noonan/Paizo's Dark Sun?
I don't think athas.org will be given permission to do so. This is one of the biggest problems with what was done, IMHO - athas.org has permission to release official rules for Dark Sun, but this is from WotC, not Paizo. By making two radically different sets of rules available, this can confuse and frustrate people, and will push more people away from Dark Sun than attract, IMHO.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Dark Sun is a world where the bad guys have won.
I've seen that quote a few times, and I think it might be better stated as "Athas is a world where the bad guys are the last ones left standing." ;)
Anyways, from what I've read lately, I really have to agree, paladins don't belong. At best, I could see warriors with a code of honor, but really nothing that'd resemble a paladin per say. They'd have no spells, no armor, or powers. A "DS Paladin" would be a fighter that follows a code of personal honor.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
One last question: will your web site be able to support some of the mechanics and campaign information -- if not all -- presented in Noonan/Paizo's Dark Sun?
Know what? I have an idea for ya, if you're eager to have the rules supported, why not set up your own website and support them yourself!
Originally posted by Nightdruid
I've seen that quote a few times, and I think it might be better stated as "Athas is a world where the bad guys are the last ones left standing." ;)
Good point
Anyways, from what I've read lately, I really have to agree, paladins don't belong. At best, I could see warriors with a code of honor, but really nothing that'd resemble a paladin per say. They'd have no spells, no armor, or powers. A "DS Paladin" would be a fighter that follows a code of personal honor.
Aye, maybe a reworked Samurai or something.... Without the nobility aspect to it.
Aye, maybe a reworked Samurai or something.... Without the nobility aspect to it.
Ahh, sepaku in DS! I love it!
Originally posted by Korvar
There are no knights in shining armour. Who wants to be boiled alive in a metal shell, when the metal is enough to allow you to live the rest of your life in luxury? Do you want to wear a noble's ransom into battle?
There are no gods. Who is a Paladin to pray to? The Elemental Powers? They already have their servitors, the Elemental Priests. And besides, they care no more for Law and Good than do the stones and winds themselves.
I'm playing catch-up on this thread, so pardon me if I missed this point already.
There's this misconception amongst gamers that paladins = knights. While that's the most common view of them, it doesn't have to be.
For example, there's nothing saying that you can't have someone from a barbarian tribe become a paladin. This guy doesn't have armor or follow a knightly code, but he can call upon his spirit horse.
Also consider that codes of honor differ from one group to another. For example, chivalrous honor is not the same as bushido.
The problem with Dark Sun, though, is two-fold - both in the feel of the paladin compared to the setting, and also in the magic. That's where your problems lie. Just remember when thinking about the feel that a paladin does not have to equal a knight.
Originally posted by Vecna00
The nerfing of the Half-Giant is just retarded. Personally, I'd just stick with the Half-Ogre from the Savage Species as my HG. Just throw in the alignment switching for role-playing purposes and you have yourself a balanced HG ready for use in DS.
I think I'm using a combination of the XPH and Athas.org's for my own half-giant.
The Paladins of Athas on the other hand have been a facination of mine for some time. My friends and I had worked on some elemental-specific paladins for DS some time ago. We used the old Dragon article "Plethora of Paladins" as a base and went from there (the monk-like Water Paladin was just nasty...). If done right, an Athasian Paladin can definately have a place along with Gladiators and Preservers, but should be handled carefully and only allowed on a limited basis to retain the DS "flavor" if you will.
I think an elemental champion (or elemental crusader, as Dave Noonan puts it) would fit the bill nicely. Give a spell progression like the Blackguard and have it focused on one element. Give them a kank (sp?) steed. Open alignment to any. There's all sorts of things you can do.
I happen to have a special place in my heart for sorcerers, and feel that maybe they don't need any special role-playing rules for them. In DS, a sorcy should just be a modified preserver, no defiling or gathering energy needed because the magic is "in his blood." But this is just my belief, it's totally open for discussion.
I'm of the belief that the sorcerer's source of power can be redefined so as to say that he channels power directly from the land into himself without the need of a spell book. There's no real reason, IMO, to discard them, save maybe for the idea that they almost muscle in on the psion's territory.
I have heard no mention of the advanced beings or any other epic rules yet, are they any listed? I was hoping they would have been released, I have some old characters that need to be converted...and as much as I applaud Athas.org for what they are trying to do....I have alot of disagreements with their rulings.
All they really have is a sidebar saying that sorcerer-kings should be treated like 22nd level wizards/22nd level psions. No avangion/dragon prestige classes, unfortunately.
I'm of the belief that the sorcerer's source of power can be redefined so as to say that he channels power directly from the land into himself without the need of a spell book. There's no real reason, IMO, to discard them, save maybe for the idea that they almost muscle in on the psion's territory.
I'm still trying to kick around a justifying basis for sorcerors for those that really want them without skirting around the whole 'lack of spellbook' aspect that ties thing up a bit in the social aspect (which is what the Athas.org team was hung up on if I recall).
As per Athasian paladins, you again have one of two choices. First, since Tyr has managed to be free for over 300 years now, it is possible that ideas similar to the paladins code of conduct could have evolved. Or rather, a totally DIFFERENT code of conduct... instant death to slavers and supporters of dragon-kings. A MUCH more greyer view of morality (much more end justifies the means). Striking from a position of strength to better survive (dying with noble intent means nothing if the bad guys still win). An Athasian paladin would be more like a militant zealot, obsessed with destroying his enemies, and willing to sacrifice much (even his friends) to do so. ANYTHING that stood in his way would be fair game, but he's no longer stupid enough to take it full on at that time... more likely to come by years later when they least expect it. They have sacrificed their personal honor for the greater honor of striking down their enemies. (How's that for DS flavor?). Something much more in line with the Scorpion clan in Legend of the Five Rings (honorable, but willing to get really dirty to do their part for the empire).
Mechanically, I do see some issues with laying on of hands and turning undead (ditto with spells). You could probably tweak it by giving a paladin bonuses against favored enemies, some kind of abilities to deduce an enemies weakness, etc. Alternately, make them all servitors of that one avangion... since he WAS a former dragon-king, he can still grant spells (since he had one of those magic vortex creature thingys grafted to him). Thus you don't have to worry about breaking any DS physics.
Originally posted by Vecna00
I have heard no mention of the advanced beings or any other epic rules yet, are they any listed? I was hoping they would have been released, I have some old characters that need to be converted...and as much as I applaud Athas.org for what they are trying to do....I have alot of disagreements with their rulings.
Well I have rules for Dragons and Avangions on my site, which goes down tonight as I am preparing to move, but should be back up in a month or so. I was also planning on doing the other advanced beings for Athas as well. I know that athas.org is planning on releasing epic rules in the future. Right now, I think their focus has been getting the creatures out (from the looks of things). There are others who have done Advanced Beings as well (besides me). Just do a search on this forum, as they only seem to come up every month or so.
How about people who just evolved to be able to use magic w/o a spellbook?
That's my big hang up over not using them a written in the core books. And yes, I know its being hypocritical to say it, but I don't like the 'born with magic' bit no matter how its been presented or explained so far. I'm simply trying to get the spontaneous arcane mage thing down.
An Athasian paladin would be more like a militant zealot, obsessed with destroying his enemies, and willing to sacrifice much (even his friends) to do so.
Now that's a view I can deal with. Still can't justify the core class's abilities themselves though, especially with that as the backstory for them.
1- The Order was destroyed in a ploy to control all psionic energy in the world. If the reference is not about Dragon's Crown, then it could be a good idea for an adventure.
2- The Order develops a psionic "ceremony" to change humans into elans. The fluff could be changed to make them rarer and into spies for the Order?
3- The Order's Red Tower fortress, abandonned sometime in the future. Must have been active sometime! Maybe now?
Whatcha think?
:D
Originally posted by Mach2.5
That's my big hang up over not using them a written in the core books. And yes, I know its being hypocritical to say it, but I don't like the 'born with magic' bit no matter how its been presented or explained so far. I'm simply trying to get the spontaneous arcane mage thing down.
My idea was that Elven mages could be Sorcerers (Spellsingers). I also had the idea that as Spellsingers gained spells, they were tatooed onto their skins . And the super-secret eventual idea behind that was that, unknown to almost anybody, Spellsinger skins could be used as spellbooks...
The folks at Athas.org, while working hard, don't really present anything that I agree with (epic or non-epic, I was speaking generally), and my writer's block (or imagination block...depends on how it's used) doesn't help me any either.
I don't think that a sorcy would be infringing on a psions territory at all. So they both spontaneously cast/manifest nifty powers, but they are both fundamentally different. One being an arcane caster and the other being psionically strong in the Way. Both are very useful, but the psion being more versatile then the sorcy (who needs a cleric when you have an egoist handy?). IMHO, they both have their place in the world of Athas, sorcerers are just more of an oddity and should be limited to a degree (don't need large groups of natural perservers running around attempting to slay sorcerer-kings.....or do we...hmmm).
And what's the deal with halflings now? If I read it right on the board, they're not cannibals anymore? What, did all of the feral halflings suddenly evolve into their Jagged Cliffs cousins? WTF? I love my feral halflings, especially in the arenas....love watching one climb up a Half-Giants back and start feeding on his neck...HGs are natural halfling buffets!
Weapong breakage rules are a must for DS. Although, I think there should be some special common sense rules in place for those who don't think of it. Example, metal weapons should not be sundered by non-metal ones. A given, yes, but some may not think of it. Also, metal weapons should have a slight sunder bonus agains non-metal ones. These are just my thoughts, I don't want to make this more complicated then it should be
.Any thoughts?
Originally posted by Ranger REG
I take it this is directed at David Noonan.
I seriously doubt he wrote it that way.
This was pointed to the editor(s) already mentioned earlier.
That reminds me, how do you feel about the defiling rules in Dragon #315?
Once I sat down and actually read them and went through it a few times I saw what he was trying to do and loved it.
I also take back on what I said about preservers and defilers from Dragon, I totally didn't put these rules into thought when I was typing my likes/dislikes up.
Weapong breakage rules are a must for DS.
There are weapon breakage rules, in the DMG. Every weapon has hit points and an AC rating. You want something to break, strike at it. If its made of poor materials, chances are any decent strike will break it (the sunder feat works wonders as well). The difference is, weapons don't just break at random anymore. That simply means that you have to revise your NPC tactics a bit more. In my game, sunder is an extremely common feat. NPCs, if they see a PC with a crummy bone or obsidian weapon, will target the weapon first and foremost often enough to disarm the opponent. The PCs have to think (and listen a little harder to combat descriptions) and attempt the same. Metal weapons can break as well in this method (something that the old weapon breakage rules never covered), which I am much more fond of.
If you still want a semi-random breakage rule, then 'roll up' the hp for each weapon (assign them to NPC weapons in clumps to save time). Then, with every strike, subtract a point of damage from the weapon, representing the weakening of the weapon's integrity. The weapon breaks at 0 hp as usual. Keeping the number secret from the PCs may seem to them to be unfair, but that's a trust issue. Metal weapons, if properly taken care of, 'recover' from these loses (sharpening, minor repair work and maintenance, etc), but other weapons do not.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Know what? I have an idea for ya, if you're eager to have the rules supported, why not set up your own website and support them yourself!
Whoa!
What's your beef with me? I'm just asking a simple question that needed only a "yes" or "no" answer.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Once I sat down and actually read them* and went through it a few times I saw what he was trying to do and loved it.
I also take back on what I said about preservers and defilers from Dragon, I totally didn't put these rules into thought when I was typing my likes/dislikes up.
Cool. Of course, if you later deny having said that, we have you on record. :D
:heehee
* Dragon #315, "Defilers of Athas" article, pp. 32-37.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
You do realize that you are asking something akin to asking a Ravenloft fan why Paladins are a real bad idea in most of the Duchies Ravenloft.
A bad idea, but I believe it was never forbidden.
Dark Sun is a world where the bad guys have won. Most of the population congregates around in City-States that are ruled over by immortal, godlike beings referred to as Sorcerer-Kings. These Sorcerer-Kings have a group of "Priests" that are referred to as Templars, whom they can grant divine spells to. Generally speaking, they have an established religion to worship their rulers within each City-State, and many of the Templarates prefer this to be exclusive. Elemental Clerics and Druids generally are arrested or killed for their "heathen" practices, and either hide who or what they are to enter a City-State (Druids usually just avoid the City-States all together). A Paladin would most likely be captured by the Templarate and presented in the town square, either by being hanged, or their head on a spike. Further, Dark Sun is a hot, dry desert world. Paladins generally rely on heavy metal armor. Such practices will make them cook like an oven. As a Paladin is a symbol of what is good and right, they wouldn't stoop to lying about who they are, or hiding as someone/something else. This is but part of the reason why they would not exist on Dark Sun.
That's almost like saying "lawful good" does not exist there, nor does ... hope.
Granted, I will never allow Paladin as a PC class, but I will allow them as rare, anomalous NPC, who somehow have hope in such a bleak world. Yes, the odds are overwhelming against them, but if those few who stay true to their conviction, whether they succeed or fail, it is possible.
Sorry, if I got all religious on you. Probably because where I'm born, I heard so much of Father Damien and his choice to live in the leper settlement on Kalaupapa (on the island of Moloka'i), until he himself succumbed to the very disease.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Whoa!
What's your beef with me? I'm just asking a simple question that needed only a "yes" or "no" answer.
Just pointing out that if you're so passionate about these rules, you should take the lead in supporting them. Afterall, the web could always use more darksun websites.
[a lot of work to do at the moment, so I didn't have time to post a lot]
Originally posted by Ranger REG
That's almost like saying "lawful good" does not exist there, nor does ... hope.
Yeah, I was thinking that as well.
Dark Sun is a brutal world of survival. It's a land of devastation and hopelessness. In my mind, this is where the heroes come in, to provide hope in a time of hopelessness.
My old Dark Sun game never went past a few sessions, but had it done so, the end result would have been cool. The players would have been given the ability to save the world, to make it green once again. The price would have been the loss of magic. Question is whether the players, one a wizard, would have taken this route.
I'm still not convinced that the paladin as-is belongs in Dark Sun. Perhaps that elemental champion would be a better fit.
I do think that there is room for LG characters - and hope.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I do think that there is room for LG characters - and hope.
Not to be a pain, but how, exactly? Law in Athas is defined as will of the sorcerer kings; there is no other form of government. So thus, in theory, to be lawful on Athas, you must obey the will of the sorcerer kings, who are certainly not good! The only place where it *might* be fuzzy is Tyr, but the people running it are only slightly better than the sorcerer kings! And the wilds are no better, haunted by monsters, raiders, elves, and just about everyone else who'll cut your throat for a gulp of water.
Any LG people are going to have a lot of difficulties. The Sorcerer-Kings aren't going to stand for them. Ex-Slaves are going to have problems with anyone Lawful. The Elves, too.
Having said all that, PCs often do like a challenge...
And then can be played and become rewarding.
Only problem that palading like LG characters are still too much.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
in Athas is defined as will of the sorcerer kings; there is no other form of government. So thus, in theory, to be lawful on Athas, you must obey the will of the sorcerer kings, who are certainly not good!
Lawful does not necessarily mean Law-Abiding. The Lawful alignment, at is most basic, means the character has a belief in order and discipline along with a strong sense of honor or ethics. I doubt if anyone would view the hobgoblins of other worlds as being law-abiding, but more as disciplined warriors who will fight to the death before accepting dishonor.
An Athasian LG character would probably be someone who is disciplined, highly motivated, and who views the needs of the group as more important than the needs of the individual, someone like a cell leader for the Veiled Alliance or a member of the Free. I could also see a (unique) templar, who genuinely wants to help the people of the city-state in which he lives, being LG.
Originally posted by Kael
Lawful does not necessarily mean Law-Abiding. The Lawful alignment, at is most basic, means the character has a belief in order and discipline along with a strong sense of honor or ethics. I doubt if anyone would view the hobgoblins of other worlds as being law-abiding, but more as disciplined warriors who will fight to the death before accepting dishonor.
An Athasian LG character would probably be someone who is disciplined, highly motivated, and who views the needs of the group as more important than the needs of the individual, someone like a cell leader for the Veiled Alliance or a member of the Free. I could also see a (unique) templar, who genuinely wants to help the people of the city-state in which he lives, being LG.
I agree with that. I also agree that we could have a 'paladin-like' (but with a different name) class on Athas with the proper alterations made, so his code of honor would be a lot different, yet LG. For instance:
- The paladin-like would always offer his enemy a chance to surrender before killing him;
- His word would bind him;
- He would never ignore a cry for help;
- He would share his water (I'm not sure about this one);
- He would talk before killing (that one is for sure);
- He would not be directec by the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, rather by the life-vs-death axis, always attempting to preserve life, no matter whose life it were;
- He would have a code of honor very close to a character such as CONAN (Robert E. H. - Dark Horse Comics), this guy is the most close to a "Chaotic?" paladin I've ever met.
For sake of easy gameplay, this can mean "upholding the law of the land" as your code of conduct. However, that is not the only one. A paladin could follow a code of complete loyalty to a specific group/god, and that group's laws/rules. Where a conflict occurs between her group's laws and those of the land she is in, her own group's laws win out.
This is why I make any Lawfully-aligned character in my own campaign detail their code of honor before the game starts. Or, I've created societies that lawful types are likely to come from, and wrote the codes myself. That helps prevent arguments like this one at the gaming table.
{Edit} Beaten to the punch. that's what I get for reading offline. ;)
That's my big hang up over not using them a written in the core books. And yes, I know its being hypocritical to say it, but I don't like the 'born with magic' bit no matter how its been presented or explained so far. I'm simply trying to get the spontaneous arcane mage thing down.
There are lots of creatures that get "born with magic" in Dark Sun. The Dark Sun authors already put that in the system.
It's not like casting a spell with three components and plants dying all around you are somehow "stealthy". It's just that the sorcerer class didn't exist in 2e that people get so hung up about it.
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
- The paladin-like would always offer his enemy a chance to surrender before killing him;
- His word would bind him;
- He would never ignore a cry for help;
- He would share his water (I'm not sure about this one);
- He would talk before killing (that one is for sure);
- He would not be directec by the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, rather by the life-vs-death axis, always attempting to preserve life, no matter whose life it were;
- He would have a code of honor very close to a character such as CONAN (Robert E. H. - Dark Horse Comics), this guy is the most close to a "Chaotic?" paladin I've ever met.
Sounds like something similar to the Kensai or Knight Protector prestige classes from Complete Warrior.
I could see such prestige classes being used by templars of Oronis or even Hamanu, given the right motivation.
Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead
There are lots of creatures that get "born with magic" in Dark Sun. The Dark Sun authors already put that in the system.
It's not like casting a spell with three components and plants dying all around you are somehow "stealthy". It's just that the sorcerer class didn't exist in 2e that people get so hung up about it.
At First I was all about adding Sorcerers to Dark Sun after after all it's the home of the Sorcerer Kings, but after reading David Noonan's post I can understand the reason not to add them to DS
"Sorcerers crowd the psion’s design space too much. If there’s one thing that playtesting taught me, it’s that Dark Sun works best when psions are the best spontaneous casters in the game. "
That to me seems a great,game balance reason to not bring in Sorcerer's, One other idea I was concidering was making Wizards PC classes for Perservers and Sorcerers classes part of the transfermation into a Defiler (making the switch more temping).
The calendar is imaginative. I've always felt that a good calendar is great for giving a campaign flavor. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to create one myself. I also liked the monsters. The emphasis on animals and magical beasts is a plus, I use those types a lot myself. The monster list also represents the approach I use in creating an campaign. I make a list of all the monsters from various sources that I feel are common in world and put together a sort of "Core Rulebook IV" of common monsters.
I also liked the content in Dragon. For one thing, I think they managed to capture the feel of desert setting (I used to live in Arizona, and I think of this as AZ on LSD) without resorting to the recipe of so many d20 books: feats, spells, PrCs, subraces, and magic items. (I call this the FRCS approach) While they did have new races and reworkings of old, the Dragon article didn't have the tiring Heinz 56 varieties of elves and dwarves. And I am so tired of new feats and spells. Can we say market saturation? Oh, and any setting seems ripe for new PrCs, yet none were presented. Remember when Dragon did article on old TSR settings? Think of how many had new PrCs. Don't get me wrong, PrCs are great for flavoring a world, but I think the challenge for a new DM isn't creating new PrCs, it's creating a list of PrCs from existing sources. I know that now, after having learned the hard way, it's best to present the players with a list of PrCs at the beginning for them to choose from. This wards off player tendency to look for PrCs that simply aren't right for the world or DM.
Simple things like a list of languages, familiars, weapons, and materials are rules that allow players to get the feel of a world without resorting the FRCS approach.
I've already started adding the monsters from Dungeon 110 to etools. And I'm in the process of typing up my DS players guide.
I've also used this as an opertunity to get to know 2e Dark Sun. I bought a pdf from RPGNow of the revised Dark Sun boxed so I can get a good feel for it.
I know many old fans haven't liked the conversion, but I think that there are more people like me who will now want to run Dark Sun, people who were unaware of its existance before. I think that the major consumers of Dark Sun material in Dragon and Dungeon are not old fans, but new ones like myself.
(Now, if I just find players and time to game :-) )
Oh, and any setting seems ripe for new PrCs, yet none were presented.
Thank gawd for that!
I know many old fans haven't liked the conversion, but I think that there are more people like me who will now want to run Dark Sun, people who were unaware of its existance before. I think that the major consumers of Dark Sun material in Dragon and Dungeon are not old fans, but new ones like myself.
Now that you're hooked, check out Athas.org.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Now that you're hooked, check out Athas.org.
I already have. I've already downloaded both PDFs.
Originally posted by Fanboy
I know many old fans haven't liked the conversion, but I think that there are more people like me who will now want to run Dark Sun, people who were unaware of its existance before. I think that the major consumers of Dark Sun material in Dragon and Dungeon are not old fans, but new ones like myself.
This is much like what happened to Spelljammer as well. I remember seeing a few people get into Spelljammer because of Spider Moon.
I think they could do a better job with the Thri Kreen. The version as adopted from WotC's Kreen is just too dumbed down. Thrikreen used to be something to be feared with their multiple attacks, and their paralyzing bite. To a point they still are, but they don't bring as much awe and fear to the table as the Half Giant does with his +8 STR modifier
In the long DS campaign I played in that I mentioned elsewhere, I played a Half Giant. Started out as a 2e Gladiator, when when we switched to 3e, there was no real equivalent that had the same impact as the gladiator. They were all substandard. So he became a Fighter. A little multiclassing to Cleric later on. in the end, he was 15th Fighter/3rd Cleric.
When the game started there was
Engus - The Half Giant gladiator
Flaxir - a Tiefling Ranger - the guy whose house we were playing at fell in love with the Tiefling as a race to **** since their introduction. Before that, his favorite race to **** was the Drow.
Lagoon - Dray (Dre?) Defiler
Benny - Human Bard
Jilean - Psionic Warrior - can't remember race though
Now, the diversity of that group is meaningless, because half giants have been dumbed down according to Paizo. Who knows what they will do to the Dray, the Bards lost their poison... will never forget.. we had escaped slavery, as we get outside, we are surrounded by captain of the guard and his retinue.. our Bard chucks his poison laced dagger (the kind with save or die poison at the time) at the captain and the rest was just mop up. .
So I salute athas.org for trying to keep the original flavor of Dark Sun. The Dark Sun that I fell in love with. Paizo can keep their whacked out version of it for all I care.
Oh, and since the LG comment came around. My Half Giant Fighter was fixed Lawful. Rotated between good, nietral and evil. Was interested to say the least. His wild talent from the beginning was . . cant remember the name, but the one that let you go without food or drink (which got ultrasweet in 3.0, as the body created it's own days food and water req so to speak). later he came across magical platemail (in Dregoths lair after they ousted him) and in combination with his lack of need of food and water he was a walking, shiny, mountain of destruction. He carried the groups water so to speak (had several 5 gallon containers back when the psi power just let him ignore his need for a while and not permanently) And when he turned cleric (of water, do to a rather mystical encounter in the Pristine Tower relating to water) he was able to refill the groups water as needed. And in turn with the underground rivers in New Guisenol, they were planning on using the planar gate* to sell water to the masses of the world.
* planar gate - see my other post about the tower lense and the gate and it's uses and such.
Oh, and since the LG comment came around. My Half Giant Fighter was fixed Lawful. Rotated between good, nietral and evil. Was interested to say the least.
I had a half-giant NPC who had the same alignment. Thing is, the way I interpreted the Lawful aspect of it is that he was Lawful to one being only - the mul gladiator player character. Needless to say, when the mul incited rebellion, few people would mess with him.
Originally posted by Agonar
When the game started there was
Engus - The Half Giant gladiator
Flaxir - a Tiefling Ranger - the guy whose house we were playing at fell in love with the Tiefling as a race to **** since their introduction. Before that, his favorite race to **** was the Drow.
Lagoon - Dray (Dre?) Defiler
Benny - Human Bard
Jilean - Psionic Warrior - can't remember race though
**** or rip?
d12 - Gladiator/Barbarian
d10 - Fighter/Soulknife
d8 - Psychicwarrior/Ranger*/Cleric**/Druid
d6 - Rogue/Wilder
d4 - Wizard/Psion
*Adopting the non spellcasting ranger from Complete Warrior.
** Using the cleric class for both templars and elemental clerics as well.
About breakage. A long time ago we argued about breakage if it was compatible or not with 3E rules and by the end athas.org decided it wasn´t. Since Erik Noonam's post I suggest bring it back.
Brax had an interesting concept for weapon breakage rules. Whenever a character rolls a natural "1" on his attack roll he had to make a Dexterity check DC 10. If he fails the check, he sunders his own weapon with an unarmed attack, dealing damage accordingly.
There are other things... too. I know I can have my own conversion, however, as a DS fan and recognizing athas.org as the official conversion and reference for the dark sun community I concern to your job and try to help with my constructive criticism. Let´s keep the flavor.
I've been lurking around here peridocially for a couple of months now.Anyway, I think it is great that DS is at least getting some attention. Sure everythings not just how most of us would like it, but I suspect like many of you it was aimed mostly at new fans. (Though I can't imagine how beardless dwarves would discourage new fans
) Hopefully these new fans will be inspired (like the poster above) to check out the original products on pdf. They are really cheap after all, much cheaper than Eberron will be I'm sure!:D While I haven't seen the latest Dragon issue, I do like what I've seen in Dungeon. The return of Andronopis, Dregoth's open rule of a city-state, and the puppet-king's (T-howeverlyouspellit) accomplishing the seemingly impossible by becoming a full-blown dragon king (complete with templars even). I'll probablly use much of it as future event's in my campaign.
I also saw the article on defileing in an earlier issue of Dragon. I thought it was brilliant. It captured exactly how I see defilers as working. It accouted for everything that I think defilers should be able to do. It was also far too complicated for my style of DM ing.
Too much book keeping for me thank you! Oh well...I'd also like to say that like many others here, I really disagreed with a lot of what I saw in Athas.org's conversion. However, after playing a couple of game with it I like it much better now. The systems are simple and easy to run and the races are true to the original setting and more or less balanced. I recommend that everyone give it a chance before writing it off. I did, however add my own weapon breakage rule (a 20 on a roll to confirm a threat is going to break your weapon
).I'm finding myself interested in this discussion about possible Athasian paladins. I've just had an idea that would allow for PHB style paladins (without metal armor though, of course) but remain true to the setting though. Now, paladins were originally (in real life folklore) the noble knights of Charlamange right? Sort of like Arthur's knights. Yeah, but how does this apply to Dark Sun you might ask? What about Oronis, the avangion ruler of Kurn? He could empower paladins much the way the dragon kings empower templars. They could be his warriors dedicated to the defense of Kurn and the salvation of Athas as a whole. I think it could work. Something for everyone to toss around for awhile anyway.
Well, I hope to post around here more often from now on, I hope everyone can look at this whole Dragon thing positivly and welcome the newbies with open arms.
P.S.
I'm an out-of-work artist, (well, I've got a job, but it's a crappy part-time one
) who would be willing to help out at Athas.org. Who do I talk to about that? I know it's probablly on the site somewhere, but why not ask while I'm here anyway? A pdf of printable character/monster counters would be cool I think.I'm an out-of-work artist, (well, I've got a job, but it's a crappy part-time one ) who would be willing to help out at Athas.org. Who do I talk to about that? I know it's probablly on the site somewhere, but why not ask while I'm here anyway? A pdf of printable character/monster counters would be cool I think.
Drop a line to Dawnstealer to get the low-down on the artistic side of the Athas.org team (or just wait a post or two till he shows up ;)). He's currently working on alot of the pics for the Terrors of Athas pdf.
(edit)
See? He beat me to the punch :D
Originally posted by Draggah
P.S.
I'm an out-of-work artist, (well, I've got a job, but it's a crappy part-time one
Send your art in an email to [email]overcouncil@athas.org[/email]
You can try just [email]neeva@athas.org[/email] and CC [email]flip@athas.org[/email] as well, but sending it to the overcouncil will get it to both of them at once.
Come on though, nobody's biting on my paladin idea? Even if it's just to smack me in the back of the head and yell "NO NO NO!"??
1. I'm pretty disappointed most NPCs in the introductory adventure had metal weapons and armor, especially the low level elves and the kreen. Seemed like a dodge. Seemed like it was more important to showcase new psionic rules than the DS ones.
2. Weapon breakage rules, this is core to the DS set. Mistake not to include it.
3. The heat effects referred to from Dungeon to Dragon came to a dead end. Sloppy. Really could have used them, since they did not appear to match the DMG rules.
4. Where is the Drik?
5. How come no carrying capacities for the Crodlu? Kinda basic.
First time poster "here". Should've come sooner but the Optimization board sucked me in first. ;)
If you can bear... a little history:
The month that the first boxed set came out back in the early 90's was a new day for my D&D imagination. Brom really shook the pillars of hell with his alien look & feel. Baxa screwed it up but it didn't matter. Everything was great for several years. More cool stuff was produced and we drank it in like a dehydrated Mul after a Tyrian gladiatorial bout [pre-Kalak death of course ;)]. About the time the last novel was produced for Darksun my gaming group dissolved. I pretty much stopped D&D gaming after that. Not that I was sick of Darksun but because the group I left gave me a bad taste in my mouth. When 3.0 came around I started up again with the force of a Mekillot charge. Granted the world was Forgotten Realms but it didn't matter. The system was A LOT BETTER! When dragon hinted at a new Darksun, all my memories fled back from those great days of stats above 20's and constantly having to worry about where we were going to get our next drink. Pulling all my old modules and books (about 90% of what's been printed) I could hardly wait to see what they changed/fixed/altered/IMPROVED to my favorite setting... EVER.
I took an hour and a half last night to go through Dragon 319 at my local Barnes & Noble lazy-boy couch.
After I put it down I shook my head, left the magazine where I sat and drove home extremely disappointed. After reading this whole post I have to agree most with NytCrawlr's well put likes/dislikes on 04-09-04 12:15 PM. I also agree with Vecna00 post 04-10-04 03:09 AM. Great ways to get around 319's nerf's. I'm also with Dragonhelm on his way to solve the paladin issue.
Then I read the Athas.org version of Dark Sun 3.5 which is to say like many of you, I will be using 85% of. Where is this rant going? I'll tell you...
In the end it doesn't matter what Dragon puts out about our beloved green jewel. We can always alter the world as we remember it and as the 90's fluff depicted it. I can say there will be a whole slew of "house rules" that will pretty much be straight copying from the original 2 box sets. As for fluff, that's all delivery by the DM so it shouldn't be that much of an issue for newbie players. Sure the "new-schooler's", who don't have the old gamers to talk with, won't have nearly the feel that we were subjected to almost 12 years ago. But that is not out fault nor problem. If we can keep the game the way it was with some new 3.5 game mechanics than that is what is important, not the complete bastardization of our world in a magazine.
So yes I was very disappointed by the 319 article, but in doing so sparked an old ember within. I now have a new drive to go through most of my material and flesh out a new game for my players based on the "old ways" & the Athas.org 3.5 write up.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Know what? I have an idea for ya, if you're eager to have the rules supported, why not set up your own website and support them yourself!
That's a great idea Eveninghippy, if not a daunting one. Being a graphic designer I may have to make this a reality and then have all you old-schoolers give me feedback on how to make it better to match the O.G. version, 3.5 rules wise that is.
Draggah: Do you have an on-line portfolio? I'd love to work with you on making a Darksun site a reality.
Take care fellow dune walkers... I'll see ya on the next hill...
Originally posted by Markus.l
That's a great idea Eveninghippy,
weak.
Originally posted by Markus.l
So yes I was very disappointed by the 319 article, but in doing so sparked an old ember within. I now have a new drive to go through most of my material and flesh out a new game for my players based on the "old ways" & the Athas.org 3.5 write up.
Same here, that's why I am doing my own D20 rules with athas.org's rules as a base.
Something that has spawned my curiousity though. When the guys that wrote the little fluff piece on the dwarves, they should have looked back at our past history, there's a great example of this there that would have made them think twice about writing what they wrote.
Go into the future 300 years from now and can you honestly say that the Jews would say that Hitler was a swell guy and would worship him as a god?
I think not.
Little common sense goes a long way.
Yeah that was harsh, but I think it had to be to make the point hit home.
Originally posted by Flip [2004-01-14] @ http://athas.org/
We have been in contact with the folks at Pazio, who took over the publication of Dragon and Dungeon earlier this year. I can't reveal everything that was discussed, as we're still trying to sort out the relationship.
Pazio has a rule that they cannot publish anything that has been published elsewhere, which eliminates everything currently on the site. It also invalidates quite a bit of our non-module development materials, since we have been very open in our rule-development process over the years.
However, we're discussing with them how to better involve Athas.org in the process. Whatever results come of this will likely be applicable to all of the official sites.
No matter what ends up happing, however, there is a continued place for athas.org, and all of the official sites. Dragon is a D&D generalist magazine -- it's needs and goals don't mesh well with the continued support that a fleshed out setting requires. Products such as City State of Draj (even if it were much, much shorter) just aren't the sort of thing that Dragon is interested in publishing, because it's not of much use to the majority of their audience.
Seeing the above NOW, and in response to everyone’s disappointment to the Dragon 319 article, I would like to know exactly what the people at Pazio said to the athas.org crew.
Originally posted by Markus.l
Seeing the above NOW, and in response to everyone�s disappointment to the Dragon 319 article, I would like to know exactly what the people at Pazio said to the athas.org crew.
I read that before at athas.org before I saw this thread, and didn't think anything of it. I think that it is imortant to remember that David Noonan's been running his own Dark Sun campaign for years. I seem to rember reading (in Dungeon? I can't remember . . .) that he started while playtesting the 3e Psionics Handbook. Mostlikely the material (that wasn't edited by Dragon) was written over several years, before Athas.org had the comprehensive material now on the site. It makes sence that diffrent people would come to diffrent conclutions about how to handel the game mechanics. Noonan obviously feels that Monks and Sorcorers don't belong in the setting, something others seem to share, but he would also have diffrent takes on how the monsters are built and various concerns would alter how the adventure in Dungeon would be built.
Simply because a game designer makes diffrent design choices than the people at athas.org doesn't make either design choice bad. After all, it's as much Noonan's game as it is yours.
Originally posted by Fanboy
...Simply because a game designer makes diffrent design choices than the people at athas.org doesn't make either design choice bad. After all, it's as much Noonan's game as it is yours.
NO DOUBT! I agree whole heartedly BUT how many of us have changed the fluff THAT much in their own game? Dwarves WITH hair? Half-giants just as strong as muls and only 7 or 8 feet tall? Pterrans now have a wisdom penatly, and have a higher natural armor bonus than thri-kreen? Elves are not any taller than their standard D&D counter parts? ALL humans eventually get up to 4th level psionics? etc. etc.
It's cool if he wants to have his world like that but I think it's a slap in the face, to the rest of us who followed the 90's version, to have the new D&D generation think that's how it was done back in the day...
Originally posted by Markus.l
NO DOUBT! I agree whole heartedly BUT how many of us have changed the fluff THAT much in their own game?
I can't speak for DS players, but I've changed the fluff of various sources in my game to various degrees. For example, I run a world where the people worship the Norse Gods, but the setting isn't historical Earth. I've also changes some things beyond what's called for to just make the myths fit D&D
Dwarves WITH hair? Half-giants just as strong as muls and only 7 or 8 feet tall? Pterrans now have a wisdom penatly, and have a higher natural armor bonus than thri-kreen? Elves are not any taller than their standard D&D counter parts? ALL humans eventually get up to 4th level psionics? etc. etc.
These are all details that are easy for any DM to adapt to their tastes. Remember, even if Noonan had been more faithful (and, not knowing the full extent of the changes, he probably was) people would have altered. I've never run an unaltered setting. I've tried, but I just can't do it. I imagin I'm not the only one.
Also, I don't think those details are nessary to get the flavor of the setting. Its seems to me that the themes that are most important to the setting are desert, psionics, arcan defiler magic, and the Dragon Kings that rule the city-states. Secondary would be gladitorial combat. Most of what you mention would emphisize the diffrences between regular 2nd D&D and DS, but making a setting diffrent just to be diffrent isn't always good and alinates potentioal players. When DS first came out, TSR had published many, many, many standard D&D settings. 3e really hasn't reached that glutiny. Erroring on the side of 3e compatibility makes sence because I've found it's eaiser to make a setting diffrent than it is to make one that is compatable. Think about it, how hard is it to make the half giant tougher? How easy would it be to make it weaker?
It's cool if he wants to have his world like that but I think it's a slap in the face, to the rest of us who followed the 90's version, to have the new D&D generation think that's how it was done back in the day... [/b]
As a dyed in the wool fanboy, I gotta say I know how you feel. I've seen a lot of things I loved "back in the day" change when they were re-released for today's audiances. Usually, the changes don't bother me, but sometimes they do. (There was this new He-Man back in about '93 that was horrid!) I don't think its a slap in the face to re-imagin something in a diffrent way, because our games are what me make of them. I doubt the Dragon artical will harm DS in any signifigant way.
I can't speak for DS players, but I've changed the fluff of various sources in my game to various degrees.
I've noticed that most people start off a new setting as written, but over time diverge their home campaign drastically from canon anyhow. So its really no surprise to me that David Noonan would envision DS 300 years from now differently than I would. I doubt that my vision of Athas 300 years from now would really sit well with the majority of the community either.
Still, the articles, from what I've managed to digest, work within the context of being user friendly for mass consumption. The premise seemed to be 'change only what is absolutely neccessary' and in that, he (and the editors) succeeded.
Originally posted by Markus.l
NO DOUBT! I agree whole heartedly BUT how many of us have changed the fluff THAT much in their own game? Dwarves WITH hair? Half-giants just as strong as muls and only 7 or 8 feet tall? Pterrans now have a wisdom penatly, and have a higher natural armor bonus than thri-kreen? Elves are not any taller than their standard D&D counter parts? ALL humans eventually get up to 4th level psionics? etc. etc.
My hyptothesis is that Muls and severak other DS-only races are done by Nooan.
And that then editors just slaped with XPsiHB verssions of 1/2Giant and Three-kreen.
And that's like mixing apples and oranges.
Originally posted by Kelsen
About breakage. A long time ago we argued about breakage if it was compatible or not with 3E rules and by the end athas.org decided it wasn´t. Since Erik Noonam's post I suggest bring it back.
Brax had an interesting concept for weapon breakage rules. Whenever a character rolls a natural "1" on his attack roll he had to make a Dexterity check DC 10. If he fails the check, he sunders his own weapon with an unarmed attack, dealing damage accordingly.
I've always used the breakage rule, even on other settings. When I first knew that DS weapons weren't made of metal, this breakage rule became a universal unavoidable law.
So instead of my generic house rule (Whenever a character rolls a natural "1" on his attack roll he had to make another d20 roll, if the result is below 10, then something bad happened, if the result is another "1" the weapon broke, if between 2 and 10 the character dropped the weapon), I said that whenever the character rolls a natural "1" or a natural "20" the weapon breakes. Either by a disastrous or a too-much-hard blow.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I doubt that my vision of Athas 300 years from now would really sit well with the majority of the community either.
You should post that sometime.
I would be interested in seeing it.
You should post that sometime.
I would, if I had an actual vision of Athas 300 years from now ;)
I'd probably have Rajaat out of his prison and flooding half the world by then myself.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I would, if I had an actual vision of Athas 300 years from now ;)
I'd probably have Rajaat out of his prison and flooding half the world by then myself.
Works for me, heh.
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
So instead of my generic house rule (Whenever a character rolls a natural "1" on his attack roll he had to make another d20 roll, if the result is below 10, then something bad happened, if the result is another "1" the weapon broke, if between 2 and 10 the character dropped the weapon), I said that whenever the character rolls a natural "1" or a natural "20" the weapon breakes. Either by a disastrous or a too-much-hard blow.
That works well too, however very extreme in my opinion. I´d suggest a rule that weapons get damage until they break, rather than break instantaneously. For example:
Whenever a character rolls a natural "1" on his attack roll have him make a Dexterity check DC 10, in case of failure he damages his own weapon dealing 1d6 + Str mod.
That works nicely since the strongest human in D&D have a starting Strength score of 18 (+4 damage modifier). Since metal harness is "10", he wouldn´t be able to break a metal weapon on a natural "1" since he would deal up to 1d6+4 (maximum 10 points of damage). In the other hand, bone weapons (hardness 6) and stone weapons (harness 8) could be damaged.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I would, if I had an actual vision of Athas 300 years from now ;)
I'd probably have Rajaat out of his prison and flooding half the world by then myself.
That sounds very interesting... why don't give it a try? Release thy words and let the prophecy speak for itself...
And if you do so... I give you a cookie!
Originally posted by Kelsen
That works well too, however very extreme in my opinion. I´d suggest a rule that weapons get damage until they break, rather than break instantaneously. For example:
That's the idea, to make it very hard for the players... they're on Darksun not in an ordinary everything-is-so-easy world
Originally posted by Kelsen
Whenever a character rolls a natural "1" on his attack roll have him make a Dexterity check DC 10, in case of failure he damages his own weapon dealing 1d6 + Str mod.
I like that!
Originally posted by Kelsen
That works nicely since the strongest human in D&D have a starting Strength score of 18 (+4 damage modifier). Since metal harness is "10", he wouldn´t be able to break a metal weapon on a natural "1" since he would deal up to 1d6+4 (maximum 10 points of damage). In the other hand, bone weapons (hardness 6) and stone weapons (harness 8) could be damaged.
You have a point... hum... but for the rule to be more exciting whe sould use the same rule also when a natural "20" is rolled
Ah well, at least it gives me a legit reason to post on the Biggest DS Thread On The Block. Coolio.
The biggest uber-thread the DS community has ever seen! or is it?
/me recalls some of you are old
why was this resurrected?
Afromonkey asked about the plausibility of Unearthed Arcana's evil paladin variants, in fitting with the previous bit of discussion.
In keeping with my own games established themes (or the lack of certain themes I should say), I would be a bit hesitant to allow concepts of blind honor (even the kind espoused by some of the evil variants) and stringent moral (or amoral) codes of conduct. Adaptability and versatility win the day in my games. Those who live bound by chains of any kind will be that much easier to manipulate, con, and eventually destroy. Codes of conduct are meant to give strength to those who swear to live by them, but what does one do when those codes fail them? When situations present themselves where the choices are to follow one's personal code and fail, or stray from their code and achieve victory, how does a paladin of any aligment live with either decision?
At least, that's how my games go. So, in answer, I'd rather not allow any version of the paladin. None of them have a real niche to fill in Athas that isn't already occupied by someone or something else. Of course, your game may (and should) vary, so its your call.
My biggest problem was that the Dragon issue (back to the thread topic) basically inserted PHB paladins into the Atasian world of grey alignments. I never had problems with paladin-like or differently aligned ones (as long as their source of power was clearly defined).
Haven't we hashed this one out enough? Seriously: why was this resurrected?
It's one of those internet rules, like mentioning hitler or the nazis.
Once a thread gets beyond a certain size it becomes self sustaining and less and less pertinant to the original discussion.
So, who thinks Jon will fry me for this?
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Did someone mention genocide?
Well, that's not fair...given the Cleansing Wars, its inevitable! :D
Once a thread gets beyond a certain size it becomes self sustaining QUOTE]
So, does that mean that if we keep posting here, the thread will become a sentient being capable of feeding off the insanity of the posts while it spreads its infection globally through the internet?
My god, we've created a monster!
(though there were other posts on the old boards equally as big, lumbering, and cantankerous as this)
Then the next person says: "I agree, it's sure big!" and on, and on.
Sally/Nomad - there will be beatings. BEATINGS, I tell you!!
YeeeeeAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!
(if that doesn't convince people to stop posting on this thing, nothing will - go click on another big post...say, "New Web Page" looks good....)
[OBSCURE REFRENCE]
Dark Sun is starting to remind me of the days when people would pop into a newsgroup about comics and shout "Green Lantern!" and then watch the flames roast the whole newsgroup.
[/OBSCURE REFRENCE]
With message boards so prevaliant, does anyone still read newsgroups?
(Does this have anything to do with Dragon 319? :D )
Originally posted by Mach2.5(though there were other posts on the old boards equally as big, lumbering, and cantankerous as this)
Especially the good ol' dead kank kicking defiling magic topics came into my mind... That IS something, man!
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Especially the good ol' dead kank kicking defiling magic topics came into my mind... That IS something, man!
Die, just die.
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
We could discuss Paladins and Sorcerers in DS again if you wish...
You die too. :D
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
We could discuss Paladins and Sorcerers in DS again if you wish...
Or living, flying halfling battlecruisers...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Or living, flying halfling battlecruisers...
Don't forget space hamsters, can't forget those.
muu~~st poooosssst moo~~~oorrrree Even better is watching Jon shoot them out of the sky with his oracular lighting bolts.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Personally, I think the halfling battlecruiser is a giant space hampster. Think about it...it makes sense.
So do dwelfs, dwelfs make sense too.
Try zapping em then mister "Jon the Oracle of Athas"!
Oh I am so dead. :D
Edit: one day I will learn to spell.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Personally, I think the halfling battlecruiser is a giant space hampster. Think about it...it makes sense.
No, no...the halfling battlecruiser is inside the giant space hamster. Silly you!
Originally posted by Pennarin
No, no...the halfling battlecruiser is inside the giant space hamster. Silly you!
Man, I'd hate to see that turd when it finally comes time to pass it, that's going to hurt.
RaFoaSF
Rise and Fall of a Smelly Ferret?
Originally posted by felixmeister
Dwelfs, the halfling shock troops. Disgorged from the hamster/battlecruiser cheek pouches, straight into battle, covered with a protective coating of hamster spit.
Try zapping em them mister "Jon the Oracle of Athas"!
Oh I am so dead. :D
YOU'RE so dead? I'm dead for bringing up halfling battlecruisers again....
RaFoaSF
Rise and Fall of a Smelly Ferret?
Rendering and Filleting of a Silly Frog
(apololgies to Grummore - no offence intended :D )
(By the way, Rise and Fall of a Silly Frog was intended)
YOU'RE so dead? I'm dead for bringing up halfling battlecruisers again....
Heh, now I'm worried that he has access to the oracular equivilent of a FAE (fuel air explosive) or nuke.
Originally posted by Jon
I say we take off and lightning bolt the entire thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
apologies to James Cameron
Heh lets see who gets dead first :D
Originally posted by felixmeister
Heh, now I'm worried that he has access to the oracular equivilent of a FAE (fuel air explosive) or nuke.
Heh lets see who gets dead first :D
Heh, if he's really creative, neither of us will die, just be banished to some horrible fate worse than being put in the Hallow with Rajaat...Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Die, just die.
Ouch, we are a bit antisocial here, aren't we?
Did I touch a sensitive point on you? Originally posted by Fanboy
[OBSCURE REFRENCE]
Dark Sun is starting to remind me of the days when people would pop into a newsgroup about comics and shout "Green Lantern!" and then watch the flames roast the whole newsgroup.
[/OBSCURE REFRENCE]
We may have to torch this thread to kill it, yes. Volunteers? :D
With message boards so prevaliant, does anyone still read newsgroups?
I browse them on occasion for anime pics...otherwise, nada.
(Does this have anything to do with Dragon 319? :D )
Is it supposed to? I thought all good threads eventually went off-topic. :D
Originally posted by Ablamar
Is it supposed to? I thought all good threads eventually went off-topic. :D
All this is off-topic?? Damn it... *tearing and burning thousands of uselles notes...*
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Ouch, we are a bit antisocial here, aren't we?
Nope, just being silly as usual, heh.
:bounce:
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
All this is off-topic?? Damn it... *tearing and burning thousands of uselles notes...*
Off topic? Hell, we're off our rockers!!
Nudge nudge.
--Drake
Yar!
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Bearded dwarves on Athas rock!
Yar!
I think you've just pointed out why bringing this thread back on topic is un-wise.
[ON TOPIC]
Thanks to the DS monsters in Dungeon, I was able to enter in some Athas monsters into [SURE TO START A FLAME-WAR]E-Tools[/SURE TO START A FLAME-WAR] as races.
[/ON TOPIC]
[SARCASIM]Have fun![/SARCASIM]
Back to the topic.
[ON TOPIC] Thanks to the DS monsters in Dungeon, I was able to enter in some Athas monsters into [SURE TO START A FLAME-WAR]E-Tools[/SURE TO START A FLAME-WAR] as races. [/ON TOPIC]
Can this not be done using Terrors from the Desert?
Also I had problems trying to add anything or modify stuff in E-tools, so did you manage it?
Have got E-tools, pc-gen and the 3.0 char generator.
Found pc-gen to be better for customising the ruleset. E-tools was okay but I felt I got less (and had to pay for it) than what came with pc-gen.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Bearded dwarves on Athas rock!
Yar!
There were bearded dwarves on athas, rikus saw the carvings of them in Kled (RE Crimson Legion) they were the stereotype of dwarves - full plate armour, long hair and beards down to their ample bellies(and also lacked the stature of modern dwarves). Rikus was amazed as dwarves and muls dont have hair - but it seems this is as much of a cultural thing as genetics, they probably naturally have less hair, but also remove any remaining hair.
Thats how tough muls and dwarves are - the only D&D races to have BRAZILIAN WAXES!
Thats how tough muls and dwarves are - the only D&D races to have BRAZILIAN WAXES!
Only a mul, raised from birth as a slave, whipped and tortured daily, who has faced the claws of kreens rending his flesh, the lacerations of bone blades striking his unarmored body, and the pain of fighting for hours on end without rest under the scorthing heat of the Athasian sun . . . could endure a full body wax job. Let's see a pansy elf from FR endure that!
Let's see a pansy elf from FR endure that!
I hear ya brudda.
one of the main reasons i first got into DS was how much cooler the Athasian elves were than FR's Elrond duplicates.
The other reasons were i was sick of the good guys always been on top [cough]Elminster[/cough] and so it was cool seeing a world where evil had won.
And i loved dwarves in this world, they weren't underground anymore, and their 'focus' added a lot of character to them, it more than their appearance highlighted their toughness and stubbornness.
I should probably clarify my FR annoyance. In 2E i played in a FR campaign with a DM that treated Elminster and the chosen like a big stick. I had a shadow wizard/psionicist and i swear the Simbul followed me around all the time. It was like been a kid and your mum told you off when you swore or did something naughty:
The Simbul bursts into your room "Hands above the sheets!"
then casts cone of cold on you to cool you off.[OFFTOPIC]I played in a FR game for a while under a "Revisionist" DM who was fond of riding roughshod over canonical Realmslore in favour of his own mad plotlines. I will never forget the day that poor old Elminster crumbled to ash in my arms, his soul drained away to nothingness by a mad avatar of an ancient god. *sighs in nostalgic bliss* Wonderful games.[/OFFTOPIC]
Originally posted by DracoChapel
Thats how tough muls and dwarves are - the only D&D races to have BRAZILIAN WAXES!
I don't think that was funny...
Where did you get that idea from???
In Brazil, men only shave (the beard). It's our women that wax legs and armpit . So we are not all like crystal balls... hairless, shiny and smooth...Unfair...:D
Its simply yet another example of American marketing, to label something as foreign lends itself to garnering more money from elitist upper class, and nowhere is it more true than in the fashion and beauty industry (French manicures, Swiss weaves, Australian hydroginating . . . heck, I don't even want to know what that one is). Not really sure what the difference between a Brazillian wax is and a regular one; being a guy who is not a body builder, I've never had the inclination to get a wax treatment (I did get covered in nair when I passed out at a high school party once . . . but its still not the same).
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
I like american markiting, Im a capitolist, as long as they let me keep my guns.
Me like too... americans markiting pay with american dollars...:heehee :heehee
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
Me like too... americans markiting pay with american dollars...:heehee :heehee
Are you mocking me???:fight!:
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
Are you mocking me???:fight!:
Since I don't know if you are serious...
The Serious Answer:
No I am not... Excuse me, if you felt so, I just participated in the joke. I don't like to be mocked so I don't do it with others.....
The Joking Answer (only in case you are not serious):
Meeee? Mocking someone??? Me don't know english enough to mocking someone... what mocking is? A fruit?
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
I like american markiting, Im a capitalist, as long as they let me keep my guns.
Boo, boo on you!
:thumbsdow
Ok, I won't boo the guns thing, but capitalism just downright blows.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Ok, I won't boo the guns thing, but capitolism just downright blows.
Damn right! That day when they started building the Capitol in 1793 was a dark day indeed...
Originally posted by Pennarin
Damn right! That day when they started building the Capitol in 1793 was a dark day indeed...
"Educate the masses, we'll burn the White House down."
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
I like american markiting, Im a capitolist, as long as they let me keep my guns.
It's amazing what 1 little letter can do to change the meaning of an entire sentence... That is, changing it from making sense to not. I think you meant "capitalist", not capitolist".
:D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
"Educate the masses, we'll burn the White House down."
The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
It's amazing what 1 little letter can do to change the meaning of an entire sentence... That is, changing it from making sense to not. I think you meant "capitalist", not capitolist".
:D
Esp when I follow through with the same mistake.
Der on me, I should have remembered that one.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire?
Nope, from a Queensryche tune, Mach feels my love on that one.
Queensryche -- Operation Mindcrime - Speak
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Nope, from a Queensryche tune, Mach feels my love on that one.
Queensryche -- Operation Mindcrime - Speak
Can't I make a different obscure musical reference bsed on your obscure musical reference?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Can't I make a different obscure musical reference bsed on your obscure musical reference?
Wasn't obscure to me.
The Roof is on Fire by Bloodhound Gang.
At least I think that is the title, heh.
Besides, Queensryche shouldn't be obscure if you are into good music.
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
Since I don't know if you are serious...
The Serious Answer:
No I am not... Excuse me, if you felt so, I just participated in the joke. I don't like to be mocked so I don't do it with others.....
The Joking Answer (only in case you are not serious):
Meeee? Mocking someone??? Me don't know english enough to mocking someone... what mocking is? A fruit?
See your about messed up.... But I will accept answer numba.... 2
As for the rest of you socialist, I dont like communism, Everyone should have to work. But even if the other side leads to a facist gov, When The people have firearms, they have adiquite protection, from said Gov'ment. Ohh and thanks for the spell check xolrp, I never dinied that I couldnt spell
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
As for the rest of you socialist, I dont like communism
Socialism is very different from Communism last time I checked, heh. Yes, they have some similarities, but are more different than alike.
Also depends on what type of communism you are talking about since in Marxist communisim, there is no government.
The below definitions are broad but doable:
Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Main Entry: com·mu·nism
Pronunciation: 'käm-y&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
Wow, way off topic, sorry, heh, too many damn political, econ, pol. science debates today.
Oh yeah, did I mention I don't like the Dragon conversion of DS?
Socailism was a form of gov, were all things are distributed equaly, but with a gov head. (In theory)
Communism, a gov, with all things being distributed equally, with NO Gov head(In theory)
Then you have Marxism(That is as china and USSR were right?) And the only difference between Marxism, and socialism, is that with marcism Gov ment has all the power... Anyway when In doubt read the good book... Not the bible, but animal farm, Im just saying watch out man, They chip away your rights a little each day... Take god outa pledge first, and thats the first step... Only the atheist will win.
Ok, so thats my crazy conspiracy theory for the day bit... Have a good day.
What was the origanal topic?
To draw a paralell to this: what a great idea to ask some writers to publish DS material in some magazine, and what a terrible implementation... :D
Now I'm not even off-topic... What a slimy little rat am I...
Originally posted by Tha Nomad
They chip away your rights a little each day... Take god outa pledge first, and thats the first step... Only the atheist will win.
God was always out of the pledge till Dwight D. Eisenhower added it, and it's still there unfortunately, the SC ruled against it.
While I believe in seperation of Church vs. State, I think this is a little silly to be wasting our time on. Yeah, it should have never been added in the first place, but leave it be and move on to more important things.
*sigh*
To stay on topic, I wonder if Draj and Gulg have a pledge that mentions their "god/goddess" in it, since both Lali-Puy and Tek (when he was alive) thought themselves to be godly.
:D
Besides, this thread hasn't been about Dark Sun for a while now. ;)