Originally posted by chonjurer
8) D&D doesn't need (much) magic
It still baffles me how/why people try to make low-magic D&D settings. The entire game was designed around the premise that magic is a present, common and pervasive force in the world. It is not rare. It is not common either, but (almost) every person in the D&D world must be at least basely aware of the presence of magic in order for any consistency.
If you don't believe me, count the number of monsters in the Monster Manual that don't have some form of magical ability/origin.
Then go and count the number of pages in the PHB devoted to spells.
Then go and count the number of core classes that don't get access to magic or some form of (Su) or (Sp) ability. (hint: two. Barbarian and Fighter; the other 9 all get inherently magical abilities or the ability to manipulate magic at some point)
Then go to the DMG and find out how many pages of magical items there are compared to the number of non-magical items in the PHB.
In the end, you have to face the fact that D&D is not "low-magic", nor will it work as such without extensive modifications, at which point you aren't playing D&D anyways and instead have designed your own gaming system. (see point #5 about picking the right tool for the right job - find some other gaming system if you want to run low/non-magical campaigns).
1- Magic everywhere is the second biggest reason I dislike D&D. (the first being inviting hack-and-slash, and in an unrealistic combat system at that) Anyways, d20, however, clearly allows for low magic settings to work, since there are a whole buch of low-magic settings. (Wheel of Time, Midnight, or even Rokugan, in some ways) This is why I make my things d20, but in no way D&D.
2- The idea that magic is everywhere is not equivalent to it being common. The best example would certainly be at the very source of D&D-like RPG settings: Middle Earth. In ME, magic is everywhere, and even affects the world on its own, and the world reflects the events of the world in magical ways (darkness and light, storms, shadows, clouded skies, tremors, songs being carried through the air, sword of unfathomable great power, etc.) However, magic in middle earth is usually discreet. It is woven into the setting, and into the craft elves and men of great worksmanship. And in the whole continent of Middle Earth, not counting the sorcerers, which are never clearly numberered, though certainly not great in numbers (I know of 3), there are only 5 wizards. However, no one in middle earth would think magic does not exist, nor magical power, because it is present everywhere, and they see it, percieve it, or think they do. That does not mean that there are magic shops and apprentice wizards everywhere, nor is every adventuring hobbit carrying a potion belt (really, how magic dependant is a setting when a PC tells another: ''What??? You DON'T have a potion belt???'') and magic bullets for his sling. Anyways...
3- The monk, according to D&D, is balanced with other classes regardless of equipment, since the Book of Exalted Deeds allows any class, including monks, to gain the Sacred Vow feat and abilities (which IMO is a ridiculous idea, which only shows how dependant D&D is with magic to give such a boon when you don't have any. Anyways, no matter if you're a monk or not, D&D expect every character to get his equal share of the loot, and the magic items, so this guy's argument is no good, unless he himself breaks with D&D.
So:
If you think the monk is not balanced in a low-magic setting(which I do anyways, remember having that discussion with me Nyt?), you'd have to limit some of his abilities, or put a balancing factor in. I did so with mine. His abilities were psionic-based, or psi-like, and required Power Points, which the monk had in short quatities. When he used his psi-like abilities, he drained his other abilities. Note that 3.5 psionics will no longer require power point reserves, so that will need tweeking. Other stuff too, but thats beside the point, and more flavor-like.
Note however that I have tweaked some other classes with small boons to compensate for their poor starting equipment too. Fighters, for exemple, won't have access to very good, and heavier, armors, nor good weapons. as a small compensation, I gave the fighter an extra first level feat, which has to be a tactical feat (see Complete warrior), which makes him more of a soldier, since those feat are linked to organised combat or combat manoeuvres. Anyways. Aside from this, other classes need little twinking.
As for the rest, that damn kill-kill-kill-need magic to-kill kill kill XP system has got to go out the window! Have equipment add to the CR of the PCs (or NPCs) if you want, but not have them intricate part of the ECL system. Anyways, long live reward systems!
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
1- Anyways, d20, however, clearly allows for low magic settings to work, since there are a whole buch of low-magic settings. (Wheel of Time, Midnight, or even Rokugan, in some ways) This is why I make my things d20, but in no way D&D.
Agreed.
2- The idea that magic is everywhere is not equivalent to it being common. The best example would certainly be at the very source of D&D-like RPG settings: Middle Earth. It is woven into the setting, and into the craft elves and men of great worksmanship. And in the whole continent of Middle Earth, not counting the sorcerers, which are never clearly numberered, though certainly not great in numbers (I know of 3), there are only 5 wizards. However, no one in middle earth would think magic does not exist, nor magical power, because it is present everywhere, and they see it, percieve it, or think they do. That does not mean that there are magic shops and apprentice wizards everywhere, nor is every adventuring hobbit carrying a potion belt (really, how magic dependant is a setting when a PC tells another: ''What??? You DON'T have a potion belt???'') and magic bullets for his sling. Anyways...
Agreed, and this is what I like.
One of the posters said that the classes should be built to be balanced and then use magic to augment them, the way D&D has been till 3e for the most part, and not used to balance them out.
If you think the monk is not balanced in a low-magic setting(which I do anyways, remember having that discussion with me Nyt?), you'd have to limit some of his abilities, or put a balancing factor in. I did so with mine. His abilities were psionic-based, or psi-like, and required Power Points, which the monk had in short quatities. When he used his psi-like abilities, he drained his other abilities. Note that 3.5 psionics will no longer require power point reserves, so that will need tweeking. Other stuff too, but thats beside the point, and more flavor-like.
Thinking of going with this and reworking the mystic to resemble this more and just call it monk of Dark Sun. Want to wait till XPsiHb is out though before I do this. I already have the flavor text down pat from the mystic IMO.
Or I might just leave as is and boost the other classes more, not sure yet.
Note however that I have tweaked some other classes with small boons to compensate for their poor starting equipment too. Fighters, for exemple, won't have access to very good, and heavier, armors, nor good weapons. as a small compensation, I gave the fighter an extra first level feat, which has to be a tactical feat (see Complete warrior), which makes him more of a soldier, since those feat are linked to organised combat or combat manoeuvres. Anyways. Aside from this, other classes need little twinking.
Yeah, we should partner up on this since we seem to be going in the same direction. That and I need to take a look at your conversion some more. Not really liking what I did with races so far, but wasn't really biting into yours either, maybe a happy medium somewhere.
As for the rest, that damn kill-kill-kill-need magic to-kill kill kill XP system has got to go out the window! Have equipment add to the CR of the PCs (or NPCs) if you want, but not have them intricate part of the ECL system. Anyways, long live reward systems!
Or just boot the entire system and use a more reward based system that doesn't matter what equipment/magic you have. WoT, SWD20, D20 Modern, and a few others already do this and they work great from what I have heard and seen.
The DM is in sole control of how much XP he gives out based on his judgement of how difficult the encounter was, whether it was killing a nightmare beast, or trying to diplomacize with a Sorcerer Monarch.
Your Mystic, for example, was an inspiration for me, and is what I based my athasian monk on. We'll have to give each other's version of this class once the XPsiHB comes out.
As for my conversion, it will be updated this summer, probably at the end of June. Right now, my races have been revamped and I like all of them, except maybe for the dwarf which I'm not entirely satisfied with, as his abilities don't balance enough IMO though I don't think its that much of an issue, and I'll find something eventually. I'll also be adding the ''negative Arcane Prodigy'' thing I added in another thread to my dwarf and my halflings (i.e. those who get save bonuses against magic.)
However, I'd be happy if I can help with your stuff and improve on mine. I don't think my conversion will ever really be finished, as I always add stuff when I see something I like. I'm even waiting for the coming dragon and dungeon conversions to update my things, and I have far less hope in those that I have in your vision of Dark Sun. :D
Dark Sun is low (Arcane) magic, yes. But, there was never any huge ruleing on Divine magic (and there's a lot of overlap between the two) and it is definately high Psionic....
Originally posted by flip
The thing to keep in mind:
Dark Sun is low (Arcane) magic, yes. But, there was never any huge ruleing on Divine magic (and there's a lot of overlap between the two) and it is definately high Psionic....
I won't disagree with you there.
Still not sure I want magic shops and zillions of magic items running around though.
Originally posted by flip
The thing to keep in mind:
Dark Sun is low (Arcane) magic, yes. But, there was never any huge ruleing on Divine magic (and there's a lot of overlap between the two) and it is definately high Psionic....
Agreed. with the Divine magic, I've always assumed that it was kind of in check itself. Clerics don't generally form religions and are frequently lone wanderers of the wastes, away from the major cities where the SM's might hurt them. As such, I've considered that any divine equipment they had they either inherited from their master, or made themselves.
Templars tend to congrgate around their respective SM's, doing what they are told and basically handling the "trivial" (read: boring) details of the city's operation for their Monarch. They generally don't seem to be the types to just give anything away, so I'd figure any Templar-made items would either be unavailable to non-Templars, or very, very expensive.
Druids, like Clerics, tend to avoid the cities; actually, they do so even more than Clerics, having a total loathing and hatred of the SM's and their life-stealing magics. Druids also tend to be more of a loner idea, and keep to themselves. Magic items made by Druids usually stay with their respective Druid, much like how it is with Clerics.
Plus - Magic items generally are confiscated by Templars on orders from their Monarchs (to be put into the royal vault/treasury) - this serves two purposes, first, it keeps them out of the hands of the common people, and second, it provides a large number of magical artifacts for the Sorcerer-Monarch's whims. I've liked the idea which was presented in the Prism Pentad that the basic, common person on Athas doesn't necessarily realize the differences between Arcane and Divine magic - they just know it is Magic, and that Magic is to blame for everything.
All together, I see Divine Magic Items as being relatively rare. Much like Arcane Magic Items. However, through all of this, Psionics are very popular, and psionic items are proliferate. So, there is a balance between magic and psionics, however it is shifted from magic-heavy to psionic-heavy designs.
- Leaving the Craft skills as is, anyone with said skill can build themselves a magic, divine, or psionic item depending on the class they are and if they have the neccessary monetary and supplies.
- There are no magic/divine/psionic shops period. The elven market may have some of this stuff, but it's going to be rare, low in power, and probably more expensive than normal prices of items.
- Losing magic/divine/psionic items when entering a city-state or some of the larger towns/forts will probably guarantee an increase in losing said item, whether it's confiscated, or stolen.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
So one way of attacking this would be as follows:
- Leaving the Craft skills as is, anyone with said skill can build themselves a magic, divine, or psionic item depending on the class they are and if they have the neccessary monetary and supplies.
- There are no magic/divine/psionic shops period. The elven market may have some of this stuff, but it's going to be rare, low in power, and probably more expensive than normal prices of items.
- Losing magic/divine/psionic items when entering a city-state or some of the larger towns/forts will probably guarantee an increase in losing said item, whether it's confiscated, or stolen.
Thoughts?
I'd say there are psionic shops. Magic (arcane/divine) definitely no. Psionic shops yes, however in cities they might be heaviliy restricted as to the power level of the items they can sell, as well as what can be sold period. Magic is feared by everyone, and carefully watched by the Templarates and Sorcerer-Monarchs, so shops selling items (except for black markets, of course) that are magical would generally be almost a death wish by the vendor, IMHO. I'd say that when entering a city, there might be a similar restriction as to the level/kind of psionic items that one can carry, while Magical items, unless concealed good enough, are taken.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'd say there are psionic shops. Magic (arcane/divine) definitely no. Psionic shops yes, however in cities they might be heaviliy restricted as to the power level of the items they can sell, as well as what can be sold period. I'd say that when entering a city, there might be a similar restriction as to the level/kind of psionic items that one can carry, while Magical items, unless concealed good enough, are taken.
That's something a little less severe than I would like to be, but might be on the right track when it comes to a D20 DS that doesn't rely on magic/divine/psionic items to balance out classes and instead uses said items to enhance the classes.
Definately worth pondering over.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
That something a little less severe than I would like to be, but might be on the right track when it comes to a D20 DS that doesn't rely on magic/divine/psionic items to balance out classes and instead uses said items to enhance the classes.
Definately worth pondering over.
Well, you can always opt to further restrict psionics - maybe the Sorcerer-Monarchs consider any item worth their concern and interest, thus they take even the Psionic items along with the Magical. I personally was gonna restrict the trading (buy/sell) of any psionic items that are higher than 4th level, or a total bonus of +2 for weapons or armor. Everything else is black market (like any Magic item is) - and thus has an over-inflated price, and is generally illegal to carry. A character carrying more than a handful of magical and/or psionic items (like, let's say, more than 5) not only gets them confiscated, but the individual goes to visit the city jail for a little bit, and has to pay a fine. This gives the characters some flexability with items - and forces them to pay more attention to psionic items, while those that think they can get away with it, might try to slip into a city with an item or two that's restricted.
:D
and is generally illegal to carry
In the U.S. (and elsewhere), its generally considered illegal to go carrying a gun around with you. You even need a liscense just to purchase one. This isn't just a restriction on large guns, but all guns.
Why would the SKs view things any different? If they have a ban on weapons that present a threat to them, their templars, their authority, or the city in general, the ban would apply to every item in that catagory. Psionic, divine, or arcane enchantments are irrelevant; these items of power pose a threat that 2,000 years of cunning have taught the SKs not to overlook.
Plus, gate guards and templars on patrol are stupid (generally). They're not going to go through the hassle of figuring out whether an item is psionic or not, or whether its low powered. If it looks suspicious, they'll confiscate it (even if its a worthless trinket, just in case). Of course, bribery can get you far, even so far as getting into a city with illegal contraband. If you can't hide, you either bribe the guards, kill the guards, you have your stuff swiped (and probably get jailed or forfeited into slavery).
The motto: don't grow too attatched to your possessions.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
In the U.S. (and elsewhere), its generally considered illegal to go carrying a gun around with you. You even need a liscense just to purchase one. This isn't just a restriction on large guns, but all guns.
Actually, not all states. Tennessee, for instance, has a Concealed Handgun law that permits people to not only carry a gun, but keep it hidden. Really does wonders with the whole violent crime thing, when a potential mugger doesn't know if the old lady he's about to mug has a pistol and has been practicing with it for 40 years.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, not all states. Tennessee, for instance, has a Concealed Handgun law that permits people to not only carry a gun, but keep it hidden. Really does wonders with the whole violent crime thing, when a potential mugger doesn't know if the old lady he's about to mug has a pistol and has been practicing with it for 40 years.
wonders... go look at the statistics for violent crimes in those states and come back to us on that...
Its so good up here in Quebec! :DAnyways, I think ideas here are pretty good. I think psionic ''shops'' could exist though, but probably only in psionic schools and academies. Perhaps also Noble Quarters for minor psionic trinkets.
I also agree totally with Xlorep's description of the difference between the common divine magic of D&D and that of Dark Sun.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'd say there are psionic shops. Magic (arcane/divine) definitely no. Psionic shops yes, however in cities they might be heaviliy restricted as to the power level of the items they can sell, as well as what can be sold period. Magic is feared by everyone, and carefully watched by the Templarates and Sorcerer-Monarchs, so shops selling items (except for black markets, of course) that are magical would generally be almost a death wish by the vendor, IMHO. I'd say that when entering a city, there might be a similar restriction as to the level/kind of psionic items that one can carry, while Magical items, unless concealed good enough, are taken.
I agree with xlorepdarkhelm on this one. As a matter of fact I would would kind of view psionic shops like state run liquor stores.
Actually, not all states. Tennessee, for instance, has a Concealed Handgun law that permits people to not only carry a gun, but keep it hidden. Really does wonders with the whole violent crime thing, when a potential mugger doesn't know if the old lady he's about to mug has a pistol and has been practicing with it for 40 years.
Same thing comes into effect in Ohio in a few days ;)
The difference I'm talking about though is tracking and control. The carrier needs a liscence and the gun needs to be registered. Big difference than simply walking in and picking one out.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
wonders... go look at the statistics for violent crimes in those states and come back to us on that...
There's no real evidence that disallowing guns increases crime, there's also no real evidence that allowing guns decreases crime.
Unless of course you subscribe to John Lott, and well, he lied, so that's not a good idea.
Anyways, off subject but something I've been reading into alot and find it annoying that people actually believe being armed has anything to do with the crime rate.
Good ideas all around though, what Mach came up with might be the best way of doing, especially in Athas's society.