Any info would be appreciated.
) and all I've ever noticed is what seems to be intentional ambiguity. I think that TSR purposefully omitted any details about these entities. I would be interested in hearing if anybody else out there knows any more as I've often wondered myself.nik
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
I'm pretty sure the old immortals boxed set clears that up. Old Ones are to immortals as immortals are to mortals. The whole become 36th lvl immortal then give it all up and start over shows one is worthy to become an old one, when the black balls come and spirit the hapless immortal beyond the vortex dimension. I think it says 2 mortals have managed to make it that far. It's been awhile since I've looked at it, though I'll have to when it comes time to review my mystara stuff before listing it all on ebay.
nik
Well ... maybe ... it doesn't actually say that's the case, all it says is that's what the Immortals *think* happens.
The two Immortals who reached Hierarch status twice were swallowed by blackballs and that's all anyone knows for sure.
They appear again in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium, page 16.
I see. How odd. There is no explanation of this? Only opinions of the Immortals. Well then, I geuss that's up to the DM then.
"When encountered, the blackball moves toward
the nearest intelligent creature within 60'.
It has no recognizable mind or intelligence and
is immune to everything except Immortal control.
An Immortal can command a blackball, but
it is beyond mortal control; fortunately, it is extremely
rare. It may be defeated by a gate spell,
sending it to some other plane, or by a carefully
worded wish."
So the wording in the cyclopedia indicates that an immortal can infact control a black ball but from what others have been describing above there seems to be a mis alignment.
Actually I was rather dissapointed in the level of detailed allocated to immortals in the rules cyclopedia but that is a different issue altogether.
Havard
Blackballs are a confusing one. The Mortal level books say that they can be controlled by Immortals, indeed GAZ3 features one bound into an area, presumbaly by asking an Immortal for help.
The Old Immortals rules made it clear that this is not the case. The Dimensional Vortex (where where you go if you try to shift into any dimension higher than 5) has both Blackballs and Spectral Hounds passing in and out of it. There are more stats for Blackballs in this box (I seem to remember a touch drained 1/3rd Power Points, 4 drains = bye bye) and they are quite clearly described as entities Immortals fear and do not understand.
On to the Old Ones themselves. According to the info for players, the Immortals believe they exist and created the Dimensional Vortex and live behind it. The twice to 36 (as immortal) stuff is in the known only to DM category, what is known is that when you make it back up the blackballs come for you in large numbers. The Wrath of the Immortals box changed this to make it more known (I think).
Wrath of the Immortals also introduced one Old One at the end of the adventure - with a horrendous awe effect (save to remain consious, paralysed but consious) and gives the party a nice bonus on reaction when they go for immortality if they saw what happened - the Immortals want to know more.
Basically TSR stated that they had NO INTENTION of ever producing info on Old Ones - they are just too off the scale, save for the inability to reproduce - they created the whole set-up just to get new Old Ones. The old Immortals set then suggested that, unknown to them, there was another being that was to them as they were to immortals. This being would be the one to fit montheistic religions' God, save for the pretty definite implication that he(she/it, hmm no appropriate term) never interferes with mortals, that's what the immortals are for.
So:
Old Ones are the huge ?, and are not supposed to take part even in immortal campaigns. If you want over-powered long-term plotters try Draeden or Megaliths.
Blackballs are their mysterious servants, don't investigate the Dimensional Vortex too much or they will investigate you.
Shadow Hounds likewise, but these are really only a threat to mortals.
So the GM can use them for plots, but their motivations are supposed to be too far removed. They do not act like immortals (how often are mortal characters trying to foil the schemes of an evil immortal?) - as the immortals are nto even certian they exist.
I hope the above is of help.
Kheldren
PS who else mourns the loss of megaliths in general and Urth in particular with the Wrath of the Immortals rules (though I thought they were far mroe playable than the old gold box)?
I didnt like the fact that WotI included the appearance of an Old One, even if it was never proven that it was in fact an Old One. I would have liked to see a sequel to WotI or or material prove that the "Old One" from that scenario was in fact a hoax; some other immortal posing as an Old one to mess with Rad and Ixion.
The whole showing up to punnish the immortals like some strict parent really took away alot of the mystery surrounding the Old Ones, at least IMHO.
Another idea for high power challenges in an Immortal level campaign is the Outer Beings, originally invented by Mystaros IIRC, but later developed by other fans. There is lots of info on those guys in the Vaults.
Havard
Originally posted by havard
The whole showing up to punnish the immortals like some strict parent really took away alot of the mystery surrounding the Old Ones, at least IMHO.
Takes the mystery out of the Immortals, too! I don't like it either, not at all.
Having said that I never bought the WotI Accessory. :-( I didn't find out it existed until recently. But I still have my old B/X/C/M/I sets. And ever since I read about the Old Ones in the Immortal Set 12 years ago I've been fascinated by them.
Before I reveal everything you need to know about the Old Ones, some people are asking about Black Balls. This is the description given of them in the Immortal Rules:
Vortex Creatures
The great dimensional Barrier, whose very existence creates the dilemma and paradox of the missing dimensions (as explained on page 3), is commonly called the Dimensional Vortex. The few life forms known to arise from dimensional space including the Vortex, are called vortex creatures. All of these beings can be described as either minor or major. A typical minor vortex creature is the spectral hound, described in the D&D Companion Set (DMC page 36). Major vortex creatures are incredibly dangerous to both mortals and Immortals. A typical example is the blackball (Master Set, MDM page 40).
Minor vortex creatures are immune to fire and cold (whether normal or magical), and can only be struck by magical or silvered weapons. Major vortex creatures can only be damaged by Power attacks, and are immune to all other forms of damage.
The characteristics of all vortex creatres place them within the Sphere of Entropy, though they are not actually part of the organisation. You may create others following this example.
Blackball
Sphere: Entropy
Status: Temporal or Celestial
Power Points: 500 to 2,500 (as level)
Anti-Magic: 50 or 60 (as rank)
Armour Class: 10
Hit Dice: 11
XP Value: Temporal Novice 71,000 (7 PP)
Celestial 5: 295,000 (29 PP)
Description: These old beings appear as featureless black globes, each about 5 feet in diameter. The Immortals know them to be life forms, but only within a very broad definition. They do not communcate, but it is unknown whether this is by choice or lack of ability.
Abilities and Limits: Blackballs use all Power attacks, but cannot use shield or probe. They move slowly, disintegrating everything they touch (no saving throw). If a blackball touches an Immortals (whether in physical or incorporeal form), the Immortal must make a successful saving throw vs. Power Drain or lose a third of his or her currect Power Points, whatever the amount. Success indicates that the Immortal has pulled away from the blackball, resisting the powerful suction draining his power. If this first saving through is failed, another must be made, with the same results. If three saving throws are failed in succession, the Immortal's essence is sucked through the blackball and cast adrift in the Dimensional Vortex.
Resistances: As with all major vortex creatures, blackballs are immune to all magical, physical, aura, and ability score attacks. But they may be maneuvered by non-aggressive and non-attack effects.
Habits: The only predictable trait observed in blackballs is their tendency to move toward great sources of Power when possible. If there is no power present, they move randomly. However, they apparently do no distinguish between amount the differ by 100 PP or less.
Background: Unknown, even to Immortals. Blackballs seem to arise spontaneously from the Dimensional Vortex space, and have been seen returning to it voluntarily. Immortals suspect that blackballs can pass through the Vortex, and that they serve the Old Ones, but all this is conjecture.
----------
Sorry about the length of this post, but it is about to get a whole lot longer. The following text appears in the Immortals Rules DMG pp.3-5:
The Secret of the Multiverse
Immortals have imagined much of the following, and have in fact deduced most of the truth, but have never found read evidence to support their theories. They remain uneasy, intellectually capable but unable to fully accept their own deductions.
Coming from a place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the first Immortals found the multiverse; they did not create it. They found it without order, and without purpose, so they made the achievement of these things their highest goal. The many planes of existence are still being explored by the Immortals. The Outer Planes seem to be innumerable. With each passing millenium, the Immortals grow even more awed by the apparently infinite size and variety of this vast creation.
Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones - beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean.
The Immortals are correct. With such power, the Old Ones know that they Immortals would come. They saw this as an opportunity. For despite their unimaginable abilities, the Old Ones are tragically similar to Immortals in one respect. They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desparately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Olds Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals.
But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier.
Withdrawing themselves into the sixth and higher dimension, the Old Ones created a type of wall between themselves and the rest of existence. Whenever an Immortal tries to pass beyond the first five dimensions, he or she enters a special realm. Immortals perceive this realm as a whirlpool of infinite size, made of a watery form of ether. Some Immortals have been lost in the huge swirling mass for many years; they are known to still live, but are missing, and presumed unrecoverable. The Immortals have made many attempts to explore, penetrate, and solve the mystery of this vast whirlpool, but have never succeded. This swirling chaos is call the Dimensional Vortex.
Perhaps even worse than the existence of the barrier is the simple fact that some creatures, presumably life forces but of a type different from all others, enter and leave the Dimensional Vortex. Simply called vortex creatures by Immortals, these beings are powerful and greatly feared. The Immortals believe that the vortex creatures are servants of the Old Ones, sent to observe, correct, or destroy.
In creating the barrier, the Old Ones knew that its existence would produce certain odd effects - most notable the evolution of life forms with a new dimensional viewpoint, the Nightmare creatures. They saw this as another opportunity. Immortals have begun to look at Nightmare creatures as an alternate stock from which Immortals may arise once they have reached the level of evolution of the Normal dimensional creatures. The barrier will not be removed until this great experiment of the Old Ones has reached a conclusion, for it has been successful in creating new Old Ones.
Approximately one Immortal per 10,000 reaches Full Hierarch status. Most of these beings are content in this exalted post. But some very few Hierarchs have become dissatisfied with their fate. They sought even greater power, and wondered about the paradox of the great barrier. Most of these overcame their concerns and curiosity, but a few - perhaps one of each hundred or two - chose to prove their ultimate superiority, on the remote chance that some greater power might be watching. They dispersed their life essences into their Home Planes, and reincarnated themselves as mere mortals humans once again.
Most of these daring individuals perised in the process, for they indeed became mere mortals, with no better chance to survive and achieve Immortality than any other mortal man. Only a handful both desired and reached Immortal status a second time. And of these, only a few reached Hierarch status a second time. And finally, of these few, only two dared once again to seek more. They saw the coming of the blackballs as their punishment and final destruction, and the other Immortals still believe that this is what occurred. But unbeknownst to all, they passed beyong the barrier, and exist now with the Old Ones.
One success could have been chance, but the second arrival proved that the great experiment known as the Multiverse would serve its purpose. The Old Ones continue to watch and wait for other daring Hierarchs. And someday when they are satisfied, when their unknown goals have been reached - someday the Old Ones will return.
Summary
This set does not attempt to fully describe the Old Ones. We cannot even full describe their servants, the Immortals, nor their vast realm of the Multiverse. And no future volume will provide details on the Old Ones, for their powers transcend to framework of any mere game. To reduce them to game terms would travialize their power, which is of an order far greater than Immortals'.
The Old Ones are prepared to wait indefinitely, for Time has no hold over them. If any player character succeeds in the great journey, not merely achieving Hierarch status but proving his or her superiority by doing it twice - well, no higher goal can be attained, and no reward to too great. The player wins and his character vanishes. And that is the final end of this game.
One fact remains for you, as Dungeon Master, to decide. Who are the Old Ones? Are they indeed the greatest and most powerful beings of all? Or perhaps, as they wait secure in their power, do even the Old Ones naively fail to see the most obvious fact of all? Can they really believe that no higher Being watches them?
One who also watches... and waits...
------------
And there you have it. Everything you ever wanted to know about Old Ones.
There's really nothing else to say. Except that certainly the most greatest rule ever written into any D&D manual was the simple phrase ... "If any player character succeeds in the great journey, not merely achieving Hierarch status but proving his or her superiority by doing it twice - well, no higher goal can be attained, and no reward to too great. The player wins and his character vanishes. And that is the final end of this game."
It was my dream to DM a game in which one of the players could in fact win!!! But alas, such a task would have taken about 10 years, and I could not ever find a player that dedicated.
But as far me, I am a fan of the Old Ones!!!
Originally posted by Marc
nice one.
cheers
The whole showing up to punnish the immortals like some strict parent really took away alot of the mystery surrounding the Old Ones, at least IMHO.
by Edgewaters
Takes the mystery out of the Immortals, too! I don't like it either, not at all.
I have to agree with you guys. My group is currently going through the WotI; using parts I like, modifying bits, etc. Although the conclusion is still far away, I have been wondering about an alternate way to end it and still have a great "climatic" scene.
Any thoughts out there on an alternate ending?
I have to agree with you guys. My group is currently going through the WotI; using parts I like, modifying bits, etc. Although the conclusion is still far away, I have been wondering about an alternate way to end it and still have a great "climatic" scene.
I started to run WotI a long time ago, but unfortunately didn't get very far before the campaign fell apart (was trying a PBem and it sort of broke up real quick).
Nevertheless, I had long term plans that, even as the party was going to be taking on the events of WotI, as well as their own personal missions and adventures that I threw their way, one (or more) of the PCs would eventually (and possibly unsuspectingly) end up on the path to Immortality. The culmination of such events would come during the final conflict, in which the potential Immortals would come into their power in time to assist Rad in trying to keep Ixion busy, while the non-Immortal PCs fixed the Nucleus of the Spheres.
Of course, for this to work, you'd have to shift the power level of the latter third of WotI upwards a bit- IIRC, it assumes the PCs are around 25th level or so, whereas this would required them to be level 30+.
Originally posted by Hugin
Any thoughts out there on an alternate ending? [/b]
Well, it is hard to change the ending without somehow altering the whole framework of WotI.
One of the things I dont like, is how Rad is portrayed in many ways like a villain. Even though his justification for his actions is "in the name of knowledge", he doesn't win much sympathy from me when he eventually is responsible for so much fo the destruction. My problem with this is that I have always considered Rad one of the good guys.
Here is an idea. What if the Entropics get more involved in the war between Glantri and Alphatia? In the beginning, the Alphatians are being stirred by Ixion (through his ally, the immortal Alphatia) to go to war against Glantri. However, as the war progresses, the Alphatians become more desperate. Fighting Glantri shouldnt be much of a problem, but when faced with Thyatis and Heldann aswell, it is a bit more than the Ancient Empire expected. The Alphatians turn to demonic forces for help.
Eventually, demons are set lose in Glantri. Rad is terrified. He hides in the Radiance Cave, trying to find some way to stop the destruction of his belowed country. He rushes to complete the Doomsday device. Ixion, who has been monitoring the Radiance since his confrontation with Rad, years earlier, realizes what Rad is up to. As the PCs sent by Benekander arrive in the Cave, Ixion appears and tries to reason with Rad.
Ixion: "Etienne, this is getting out of hand. Our conflict was foolish, but this is no way to stop it.
Rad: "No! Look at what is happening in the streets outside. This evil must be stopped!"
Ixion: "There are other ways."
Rad (sad): "It is too late, mon ami." He rushes back to the controls of the Radiance and begins chanting.
Ixion: "Then I have no choice but to cast you out from immortal society. You no longer have the protection of the Sphere of Energy."
As soon as he has finnished the sentence, a pack of powerful demons enter the cave. They know now, that Rad can be killed, now that he is an outcast.
"No!" Rad cries. In desperation, he activates the device. The Radience begins to glow. There is a bright flash. When you regain your sight, the demons lay dead on the ground. But Rad is also gone.
Note: The Doomsday device has been activated. It was that, and not an old one who drained Rad of his power. Afterwards, Ixion will make the speech originally made byt the Old One, about how perhaps Rad had had the right idea after all, and how he in his pride had allowed the chaos that followed their personal dispute.
This makes both immortals seem a bit wiser and makes the story more sad that just stupid. Also, it makes the Entropics more nasty, a role that I'm sure they are more than happy to fill.
What do you think?
Havard
