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Reduced Bard spell selection

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jericho
Apr 07, 2004 2:39:25 Hi,

Reading the DLCS, I see that Bards no longer get access to healing spells, I understand why this would be removed in the context of the campaign world, but it's a little unbalancing to simply remove a class feature without replacing it somehow.

So what would you suggest as a replacement class feature? Keep in mind that the bard player loses access to not just all the cure light/moderate/serious/critical and heal but also cannot use a wand of CLW without a use magic device check (DC20). At first I thought of giving the bard an additional feat, but then realised that a single feat is worth more at 1st level and possibly less valuable compared to the spell access as you go up in level.

I came up with the following:

Add some spells to his spell list from Tome and Blood and Song and Silence.

or

Add +1 to the save DC on spells cast from the enchantment school at 5th level, then an additional +1 at 10th, 15th and 20th levels

or

+1 to Bardic knowledge checks every 5 levels.

or

Something like the Ranger's favored enemy or the Master Ambassador's favored embassy features, say +1 to Gather Information, Diplomacy while in his favored region, rising to +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc.

I'm the DM for this game, not the bard player.

Any alternatives? Comments?

Cheers,
#2
zombiegleemax
Apr 07, 2004 9:54:36
Originally posted by jericho

Add +1 to the save DC on spells cast from the enchantment school at 5th level, then an additional +1 at 10th, 15th and 20th levels

I think this would be an excellent solution. I've always felt that Bards deserve a boost to their effectiveness as Enchanter types.
#3
Dragonhelm
Apr 07, 2004 9:54:39 The key element that is lost here is spell selection. The simple solution in my mind would be for the bard to take on additional spells from another source. Perhaps he draws from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or from a source outside the core three books, such as the two you mentioned.

Likewise, you could also take other approaches to the bard. Perhaps he's now a divine spellcaster, gaining his power from a deity (such as Branchala) or from mysticism. You would have your healing spells back, but be careful as you would no longer have a chance of arcane spell failure. Look in Unearthed Arcana for rules on how to tackle this.

Another alternate bard is Monte Cook's bard from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might. Rather than using spells, this class uses spellsongs, which is a neat twist.

You have several options available.
#4
cam_banks
Apr 07, 2004 10:22:15 Good break points for bonus abilities to offset the lack of healing magic occur at 2nd, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th and 16th levels. These are when bards with access to bonus spells per level first gain access to certain spell levels.

Enchantment, illusion and divination are the bard's primary schools of magic. With this being the case, consider granting them a bonus Spell Focus feat at 2nd, 4th and 7th levels, and then Greater Spell Focus at 10th, 13th and 16th levels. Each time they gain the Spell Focus feat, they can decide to apply it to Enchantment, Illusion or Divination, and ditto for Greater Spell Focus.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 08, 2004 9:10:33
The key element that is lost here is spell selection. The simple solution in my mind would be for the bard to take on additional spells from another source. Perhaps he draws from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or from a source outside the core three books, such as the two you mentioned.

I think this is the best idea. Every time the bard should have a Cure spell, he can choose one spell from the Wiz/Soc list to replace it with (DM's Approvel needed on the the spell chosen)

Also just a thought: What do you think about giving them a D8 hit die over the D6 a bit more HP might lessen the need for Cure spells
#6
cam_banks
Apr 08, 2004 9:30:15
Originally posted by Big Dawg
Also just a thought: What do you think about giving them a D8 hit die over the D6 a bit more HP might lessen the need for Cure spells

That makes them tougher, but it doesn't help to fill the missing support function which makes their healing spells significant. In fact, raising their hit die to d8 would make them too good - they'd be even better than the cleric. The bard's primary role is to help the party, and while surviving longer due to increased hit points is one way of doing that, some kind of spell or magic-related bonus (such as the additional spell selection or bonus Spell Focus feats) goes more towards contributing to party support.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
daedavias_dup
Apr 08, 2004 12:21:07 Here is what I did:

Replace Cure Light Wounds with True Strike

Replace Cure Moderate Wounds with Color Spray

Replace Cure Serious Wounds with Touch of Idiocy

Replace Cure Critical Wounds with Minor Creation

Replace Cure Light Wounds, Mass with Rary's Telepathic Bond

Replace Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass with True Seeing

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jericho Apr 07, 2004 2:39:25	Hi, Reading the DLCS, I see that Bards no longer get access to healing spells, I understand why this would be removed in the context of the campaign world, but it's a little unbalancing to simply remove a class feature without replacing it somehow. So what would you suggest as a replacement class feature? Keep in mind that the bard player loses access to not just all the cure light/moderate/serious/critical and heal but also cannot use a wand of CLW without a use magic device check (DC20). At first I thought of giving the bard an additional feat, but then realised that a single feat is worth more at 1st level and possibly less valuable compared to the spell access as you go up in level. I came up with the following: Add some spells to his spell list from Tome and Blood and Song and Silence. or Add +1 to the save DC on spells cast from the enchantment school at 5th level, then an additional +1 at 10th, 15th and 20th levels or +1 to Bardic knowledge checks every 5 levels. or Something like the Ranger's favored enemy or the Master Ambassador's favored embassy features, say +1 to Gather Information, Diplomacy while in his favored region, rising to +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. I'm the DM for this game, not the bard player. Any alternatives? Comments? Cheers,
#2 zombiegleemax Apr 07, 2004 9:54:36	Originally posted by jericho Add +1 to the save DC on spells cast from the enchantment school at 5th level, then an additional +1 at 10th, 15th and 20th levels I think this would be an excellent solution. I've always felt that Bards deserve a boost to their effectiveness as Enchanter types.
#3 Dragonhelm Apr 07, 2004 9:54:39	The key element that is lost here is spell selection. The simple solution in my mind would be for the bard to take on additional spells from another source. Perhaps he draws from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or from a source outside the core three books, such as the two you mentioned. Likewise, you could also take other approaches to the bard. Perhaps he's now a divine spellcaster, gaining his power from a deity (such as Branchala) or from mysticism. You would have your healing spells back, but be careful as you would no longer have a chance of arcane spell failure. Look in Unearthed Arcana for rules on how to tackle this. Another alternate bard is Monte Cook's bard from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might. Rather than using spells, this class uses spellsongs, which is a neat twist. You have several options available.
#4 cam_banks Apr 07, 2004 10:22:15	Good break points for bonus abilities to offset the lack of healing magic occur at 2nd, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th and 16th levels. These are when bards with access to bonus spells per level first gain access to certain spell levels. Enchantment, illusion and divination are the bard's primary schools of magic. With this being the case, consider granting them a bonus Spell Focus feat at 2nd, 4th and 7th levels, and then Greater Spell Focus at 10th, 13th and 16th levels. Each time they gain the Spell Focus feat, they can decide to apply it to Enchantment, Illusion or Divination, and ditto for Greater Spell Focus. Cheers, Cam
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2004 9:10:33	The key element that is lost here is spell selection. The simple solution in my mind would be for the bard to take on additional spells from another source. Perhaps he draws from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or from a source outside the core three books, such as the two you mentioned. I think this is the best idea. Every time the bard should have a Cure spell, he can choose one spell from the Wiz/Soc list to replace it with (DM's Approvel needed on the the spell chosen) Also just a thought: What do you think about giving them a D8 hit die over the D6 a bit more HP might lessen the need for Cure spells
#6 cam_banks Apr 08, 2004 9:30:15	Originally posted by Big Dawg Also just a thought: What do you think about giving them a D8 hit die over the D6 a bit more HP might lessen the need for Cure spells That makes them tougher, but it doesn't help to fill the missing support function which makes their healing spells significant. In fact, raising their hit die to d8 would make them too good - they'd be even better than the cleric. The bard's primary role is to help the party, and while surviving longer due to increased hit points is one way of doing that, some kind of spell or magic-related bonus (such as the additional spell selection or bonus Spell Focus feats) goes more towards contributing to party support. Cheers, Cam
#7 daedavias_dup Apr 08, 2004 12:21:07	Here is what I did: Replace Cure Light Wounds with True Strike Replace Cure Moderate Wounds with Color Spray Replace Cure Serious Wounds with Touch of Idiocy Replace Cure Critical Wounds with Minor Creation Replace Cure Light Wounds, Mass with Rary's Telepathic Bond Replace Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass with True Seeing