However, why is it that you cant' have a second elemental domain, so long as it is not opposed to your own? For example, I can understand not having earth and air, or fire and water. But what would be wrong with a combination of fire and earth?
I'm presuming this is for flavor's sake. Perhaps to say that each cleric is only able to touch upon one element.
I have an old cleric that had fire as a major sphere and earth as a minor. I may have that flip-flopped. It seemed to me that the best 3e conversion was to use the fire and earth domains, which is probably what I will go with.
Thoughts?
The Dragon cleric domains, probably it's a matter of "if you are of one element, you don't consort with the other elements" philosophy or something. This is really taking a shot in the dark tho. I'm not too pleased with the conversion overall anyway, and only glanced at the information presented in the magazine at my gaming store without looking at the material very hard.
First thing, it would make the ''elemental'' clerics simple clerics, with pretty much all the same spells, and ONE spell of their element per spell level. How flavorable!
Athas.org's conversion has at least the merit of having to choose several elemental domains linked to you patron, and if, as some suggested, you make those spells spontaneous castings, well its at least more flavorable.Second, in 2e, elemental clerics had major access to one elemental domain, but a MINOR access to the cosmos sphere, which represented every other cleric spells. Using domains really turns that completely around, having all but one spell per spell level come from the general list. And those who thought that the 2e elemental lists were limited, try 10 spell domain lists.
Third, domains, from what I understand, represent aspects of a diety's principles which you clerics emphasizes best. However, reducing the elemental patron's influence to the choice of domains and domain spells would be like having Domain: Pelor instead of choosing between good, healing and such... Domains are meant to influence powers, not define them, which I think would have to work the other way around in Dark Sun.
Now, as for your question, if you allow elemental clerics to get a second elemental domain, the whole concept of serving an elemental patron becomes even more meaningless, since you'd get as much power from your new domain as the one who supposedly represents your patron. So no, I don't think that would, or should, be possible.
Anyways, I'm basing my own athasian cleric conversion on Rokugan's Shugenja, an elemental divine spellcaster which has its spell list's spells divided between each elements. Rings a bell?
Anyways, I'm basing my own athasian cleric conversion on Rokugan's Shugenja, an elemental divine spellcaster which has its spell list's spells divided between each elements. Rings a bell?
Gawds! I think I have that book, but never got around to reading it; not even sure why. I can't believe I'm sitting on a little gem of Athasian ideas and letting it go to waste. So stupid
As for multiple domains, so long as they're within the same element, I don't think its a major game breaker. For every domain added, simply subtract one from the total spells per day per level that the cleric normally gets. Thus, at lower levels, the cleric is focused on only a single domain., but as his power and noteriety grows, the elements allow him further access into their realms of powers. This could easily be optional for each cleric, representing that some, even high level clerics, are not as devout as others. I would absolutely forbid a cleric from taking one element as a domain, and then later taking up a different element. If he or she starts off as a fire cleric, any other domains must be fire based as well.
As far as spontaneous casting of domain spells, has anyone actually tried this out? I agree that, for flavor, this is much much better, but my concern is balance. The Athasian domains seem quite a bit stronger, to me, than what you can find in the PHB.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Second, in 2e, elemental clerics had major access to one elemental domain, but a MINOR access to the cosmos sphere, which represented every other cleric spells. Using domains really turns that completely around, having all but one spell per spell level come from the general list. And those who thought that the 2e elemental lists were limited, try 10 spell domain lists.
Perhaps I was confused, but I thought you could have major access in one element, then minor in cosmos and a secondary element, so long as it wasn’t your opposing element.
Been a while!
Anyways, I'm basing my own athasian cleric conversion on Rokugan's Shugenja, an elemental divine spellcaster which has its spell list's spells divided between each elements. Rings a bell?
Very much so.
I like the d20 version of the shugenja. Heck, I like the d10 version as well. That’s a fairly good model.
Originally posted by Porkchops
As far as spontaneous casting of domain spells, has anyone actually tried this out? I agree that, for flavor, this is much much better, but my concern is balance. The Athasian domains seem quite a bit stronger, to me, than what you can find in the PHB.
Take a look at the mystic from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It is to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard. Actually, I think this is a bit of a better fit for an elemental cleric than the cleric class, at least from a 3e perspective.
The mystic only has one domain. For Dark Sun, this should be the elemental domain associated with the mystic. Spells known would be your domain spell plus spells from the general cleric list.
As mentioned above, the shugenja spontaneously casts as well, save that they need an ofuda as a divine focus.
However, I personnally do not like the concept of standard D&D casting, and I use Unearthed Arcana's Spell Point and Vitalising systems. It just makes more sense to me... Though I do agree this does make spellcasters and manifesters more similar, having no sorcerer means that psionic characters still do not need to ''memorise'' any power, while spellcasters still do. I also use a variant of the ''psionics are different'' rule which further differenciates the two.
Anyways, I'm off topic. But for those interested in the Shugenja idea and who don't want to make a spontaneous caster, its quite easy to simply redo the shugenja's spell progression akin to that of the cleric.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
[b]Perhaps I was confused, but I thought you could have major access in one element, then minor in cosmos and a secondary element, so long as it wasn’t your opposing element.
It was the Druid. Druids had access to two elements, plus Major Cosmos.
As for the rest of the topic... Even though I'd like to have spontaneous casting of domain spells for clerics, It would be too powerful. However, only ONE spell per level is not very flavorfull.
What COULD be done, would be either to have the bonus spells for Wisdom chosen from Domain spells OR Normal spell list, or simply make it TWO domain spells per spell level, and of course reduce the number accordinly.
That way, we have more domain spells, and we have more the flavour of 2E. Yes I'm aware that at higher level it would give 0+2 spells, but it shows that they are elemental clerics more than simple clerics. AND, it would reflect a little the MINOR COSMOS that they had in 2E... Slowing normal spells but increasing Domain ones.
Originally posted by Kurkamor
It was the Druid. Druids had access to two elements, plus Major Cosmos.
That's right. It's been a while since I played this character, but I remember him being a druid, not a cleric.
Thing is, I don't think the druid class abilities in 3e really fit the character. I think I may make him a cleric with the earth and fire domains to represent his spellcasting abilities.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Anyways, I'm basing my own athasian cleric conversion on Rokugan's Shugenja, an elemental divine spellcaster which has its spell list's spells divided between each elements. Rings a bell?
Good choice (just read it), mechanic wise anyways, not sure it fits flavor wise on most levels, but that's an easy swap.
Think I'll be using this as well.
We talking about clerics here. Cleric is a man/woman who has strong faith in some higher power (be it a god or an element, or whatever), and follows the philosophy that this power dictates.
There are several ways to go, several higher powers and philosophies to follow. But only one can be followed at the same time. Clerical powers require such faith from the cleric's side that there is no place for other in his/her soul. And as a cleric can have only one god, an elemental cleric can have only one patron element. A fire/earth cleric is acceptable only, if you accept a Pelor/Olidammara cleric as well. Which is nonsense.
It has nothing to do with game balance and such things: the conception of cleric itself is damaged if it is done other way than the one god/element way.
If I were to play a straight Dark Sun game, I would probably go the route of Dragon magazine on this one.
For my current purposes, though, I'm just doing a quick character conversion of one of my old characters. Since he had access to earth and fire in 2nd edition, that's what he'll have in 3rd.
The way the clerics are handled in D&D is basically wrong. They are simply a type of martial wizard with defensive/supportive type spells. Nothing is about what it takes to be a real cleric. It's understandable, given the target audience, the ease of play, etc.
Don't make me wrong, you play as you would like. But if you intend to go with an elemental cleric who has multiple elemental domains, don't look at it as a cleric. Consider him/her as a type of elemental mage instead from role-playing point of view than.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
On more tought on that: the players in my group (including me) are not religious people. And we always felt that we can't roleplay the clerics/priests correctly. We are too "practical" to that.
Funny, not a single one of my players has ever been a thri-kreen or half giant in real life, but they still play as them.
As a matter of fact, I'm playing a wizard right now, and I only spent half a semester at Hogwarts before dropping out!
By the way in my country there is a new RPG game came out. It uses d20 system, and has a really interesting conception for clerics: they have no mana points, or spells to memorise, etc. When a cleric prays to her god (casting a spell) there is a roll to decide that the god grants the request and the effect comes into existence, or not. The roll is modified by level of the cleric, the current status of the cleric in the eye of her god (favoured or not), by the situation (how the effect intended to be used) and how the desired effect itself is OK with the god (ie. asking for healing from the god of plague and sickness is not a good idea).
I didn't tested the system yet, but it sounds as an interesting conception. It supports the thing that the clerics are only the channels for the god's power. The power itself comes from the god. IMHO it reflects the real cleric-god relationship better than D&D.
Originally posted by Porkchops
Funny, not a single one of my players has ever been a thri-kreen or half giant in real life, but they still play as them.
If you belive in re-incarnation they still can be.
If not thri-kreens then cockroach or whatever... As a matter of fact, I'm playing a wizard right now, and I only spent half a semester at Hogwarts before dropping out!
Then you are not allowed for any wizardly prestige class, and you can't level up above four. A good DM always checking the certificates of the player before she creates a character to avoid problems with amateurs.