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| #1caulApr 09, 2004 9:44:21 | A lot of people are complaining about how things are going in the world of Dark Sun, how Dragon #319 upset the balance and ignored athas.org's Dark Sun 3.5. I believe that the real problem is that no one is offering anything back. We, as Dark Sun Fanatics, really need to use this board as a source of creative criticism and output rather than simply a place for us to gripe about what we think should or shouldn't be in our favorite campaign setting. So, I propose that we use this thread, or even the entire board, as a catalyst for change. Personally, I think that the existance of two rules sets is great. Reading through them both has really challenged me to decide what is most productive for my own campaign, and I would be shocked if most of you didn't feel the same way. Well, instead of saying that we will or won't use this or that rule or setting information, lets instead try to add in the why and suggest alternatives. One of the main hinderances of established gaming is that people tend to fear further improvement. We need to avoid this. So, I'll start things off, and if you want to take part, please join in. Bards, Monks, Sorcerers, and Paladins in Dark Sun One of the most interesting aspects of life on Athas is that it is, or should be, markedly different from other settings. Not only in terms of environment, though we all love the desolate wastes and the burning heat, but also in the population. What other settings lacks benevolent gods, and instead replaces them with nigh immortal beings, blessed or cursed, with great magic and arcane power while showing that such great power can and does corrupt? What other setting focuses on environmental issues, down to a personal level in the cases of defilers, giving the players the power to truly affect the land? What other setting so acutely tackles the concerns of racial bias, slavery, and even economic trade? With these differences, we have to realize that in such a dynamic environment, there will be differences in the people that inhabit it. From a rules standpoint, we should understand, as so few do, that the core classes are as they are for the sake of balance. Core classes represent a cross section of possible jobs that one might have in any society or environment. That being said, those of use that understand the world of Athas, as so few do, can understand that certain core classes are not appropriate to the setting. The Bard for example, as written in the core rules, does not mesh, not only with the original version and idea of the Athasian Bard, but also with the setting as a whole. In such a harsh, desolate place, one cannot image a foppish fellow travelling from town to town to report news and spread happiness through story and song. Likewise, their use of magic conflicts with the idea that magic on Athas is a science, created by Rajaat, as it was and is not natural to the world. Thus, one cannot imagine that such a fop would spontaneously invoke the life energy needed for arcane magic through song. On the other hand, the original Athasian Bard fits within the setting perfectly. The gritty, devious entertainer that works for those with the most coin and uses their talents and charms to get close to their employer's enemies and dispatch them by poison or by blade. However, the question remains; is this appropriate for a core class. Such talent, training, and charm would take time to develop. Thus, I suggest that we consider using the Athasian Bard as a prestige class. David Noonan suggested that he originally had intended this as well, and I believe most of us would like to see his version of the PRC. However, we can also make our own, so let's see what we can do. Sorcerers, simply put, do not mesh with the setting. Yes, they're fun and powerful, but as we have already stated, magic on Athas is a science, and not something that anyone could simply be born with a natural talent for. This lack of magic on Athas has exerted itself in other ways, which is why most every living creature exhibits some type of psionic potential. A sorcerer simply doesn't make sense. A lot of people have stated that just as with the sorcerer, a Monk doesn't fit within the setting. On this point I strongly disagree. In a world rife with not only daily struggle in the fields, in the wastes, in the cities, but also in the gladiatorial arena, and considering the fact that some do not even make enough coin to purchase a sturdy weapon to defend themselves, the idea that a system of unarmed training could evolve is not outside of the realm of possibility. I am not talking about great monastaries within each city, or even sequestered in the wastes. Instead I refer to the idea that small, impoverished communities would defend themselves by whatever means possible. And as the world has been this way for a few millenia, it is no stretch to believe that these means of defense would be passed down from generation to generation, slowly becoming rote. This is the true idea of the monk, this is how martial arts evolved in real life. Now, to speak to the rules, I would agree with the belief that the core class is to powerful, having no need for weapons or armor even at early levels. But again, what is stopping us from creating a PRC, the Athasian Monk. I have been playing and running Dark Sun since its inception, and I have to say without a doubt that there is no place in the setting for a knight encased in metal armor travelling the land to vanquish evil at the behest of his god, or in our case, an elemental power or god forbid a Dragon King. In my personal opinion, with regard to the setting, a Paladin is an obsolete idea, just as alignment is. The Templar is the closest approximation, if an opposite one, to the paladin on Athas, and as such, I suggest that there needs to be some distinguishing between a templar and a cleric. As we have stated before, one is not born or raised as a templar, one works towards that position, and thus I suggest yet another PRC. Well, I know I've said a lot and not offered much thus far save for reasoning which I think we should all keep in mind. I do plan to work on these proposed PRCs though, and I will gladly post them should anyone desire to see them, likewise I would be happy to see any offerings from anyone else. |
| #2xlorepdarkhelm_dupApr 09, 2004 11:20:06 | Originally posted by Caul No one is offereing anything back? What load of crock is that? SEVERAL of us are constantly offering things back. From Dawnstealers pictures to the athas.org team's releases, to Cyrus9a's maps, to my Dragons and Avangions, to Nytcrawlr's articles.... Hello! This community heavily offers things back - all the time. Where, exactly have you been? We're always giving creative criticism and output - heck, look at the myriad of inconcistancies threads trying to make sense of the campaign setting that are posted on this board. Wake up, and smell the Kank honey man! Personally, I think that the existance of two rules sets is great. Reading through them both has really challenged me to decide what is most productive for my own campaign, and I would be shocked if most of you didn't feel the same way. Well, instead of saying that we will or won't use this or that rule or setting information, lets instead try to add in the why and suggest alternatives. One of the main hinderances of established gaming is that people tend to fear further improvement. We need to avoid this. Ok. The problem being that the ones from Dragon and Dungeon significantly stray from Dark Sun, as has been ranted on several times. As such, there is maybe..... 2-16% of it that really is useful to many Dark Sun players & DM's. The rest of it doesn't even remotely fit into the campaign setting. However, we've also been saying that it's really up to the individual DM to decide this. So, I'll start things off, and if you want to take part, please join in. Bards exist in Dark Sun - they just don't use magic, and are more of an assassin-style character with access to hidden knowledges and secrets that only Bards remember. Monks don't because they really throw everything off-balance as written in the PHB, and would require some heavy tweaking to get them to work right. Sorcerers simply don't belong in Dark Sun, due to the nature of Arcane Magic and how it's written, however could be included if their filler-text had some significant changes as to how they attain their magic. Paladins simply don't belong on Athas - the concept of a character focused on what is good and right would generally have an easier time sitting in Castle Ravenloft than anywhere on Athas. The Bard for example, as written in the core rules, does not mesh, not only with the original version and idea of the Athasian Bard, but also with the setting as a whole. In such a harsh, desolate place, one cannot image a foppish fellow travelling from town to town to report news and spread happiness through story and song. Likewise, their use of magic conflicts with the idea that magic on Athas is a science, created by Rajaat, as it was and is not natural to the world. Thus, one cannot imagine that such a fop would spontaneously invoke the life energy needed for arcane magic through song. On the other hand, the original Athasian Bard fits within the setting perfectly. The gritty, devious entertainer that works for those with the most coin and uses their talents and charms to get close to their employer's enemies and dispatch them by poison or by blade. However, the question remains; is this appropriate for a core class. Such talent, training, and charm would take time to develop. Thus, I suggest that we consider using the Athasian Bard as a prestige class. David Noonan suggested that he originally had intended this as well, and I believe most of us would like to see his version of the PRC. However, we can also make our own, so let's see what we can do. I'd say that it is fitting for a core class. Any more than the idea that a Paladin should be a core class - what with their training regiment and requirements they must fulfill, as well as their vows they must take. Sorcerers, simply put, do not mesh with the setting. Yes, they're fun and powerful, but as we have already stated, magic on Athas is a science, and not something that anyone could simply be born with a natural talent for. This lack of magic on Athas has exerted itself in other ways, which is why most every living creature exhibits some type of psionic potential. A sorcerer simply doesn't make sense. Actually, arcane magic is a science. However, it could be possible to add in a Sorcerer, with a bit of work. A lot of people have stated that just as with the sorcerer, a Monk doesn't fit within the setting. On this point I strongly disagree. In a world rife with not only daily struggle in the fields, in the wastes, in the cities, but also in the gladiatorial arena, and considering the fact that some do not even make enough coin to purchase a sturdy weapon to defend themselves, the idea that a system of unarmed training could evolve is not outside of the realm of possibility. I am not talking about great monastaries within each city, or even sequestered in the wastes. Instead I refer to the idea that small, impoverished communities would defend themselves by whatever means possible. And as the world has been this way for a few millenia, it is no stretch to believe that these means of defense would be passed down from generation to generation, slowly becoming rote. This is the true idea of the monk, this is how martial arts evolved in real life. Now, to speak to the rules, I would agree with the belief that the core class is to powerful, having no need for weapons or armor even at early levels. But again, what is stopping us from creating a PRC, the Athasian Monk. Actually, it's the basic fact that the Monk is balanced with a metal-high and magic-high setting, which Dark Sun is neither. The Monk seriously overwhelms other characters after a few levels as a result. However - some tweaking to the class could result in it being a possibility, as Nytcrawlr and Shei-Nad have been discussing on this very forum. I have been playing and running Dark Sun since its inception, and I have to say without a doubt that there is no place in the setting for a knight encased in metal armor travelling the land to vanquish evil at the behest of his god, or in our case, an elemental power or god forbid a Dragon King. In my personal opinion, with regard to the setting, a Paladin is an obsolete idea, just as alignment is. The Templar is the closest approximation, if an opposite one, to the paladin on Athas, and as such, I suggest that there needs to be some distinguishing between a templar and a cleric. As we have stated before, one is not born or raised as a templar, one works towards that position, and thus I suggest yet another PRC. Well, actually, the Templar is closer to a Cleric than a Paladin. The athas.org write-ups work for that, and really show it a bit (more like a cleric-sorcerer, in many ways). And there is a significant amount of distinguishment between an elemental Cleric and a Templar. Have you even looked at the athas.org write-up? Well, I know I've said a lot and not offered much thus far save for reasoning which I think we should all keep in mind. I do plan to work on these proposed PRCs though, and I will gladly post them should anyone desire to see them, likewise I would be happy to see any offerings from anyone else. No problem, always wiling to look over some PrC ideas. I'd suggest looking around on this forum, and seeing what all everyone has done for the setting. Grummore has a massive set of links to fansite that have many contributions, and of course, athas.org has some real good 3.5e material for Dark Sun overall. |
| #3dawnstealerApr 09, 2004 11:45:54 | Xlor, I can always count on you to say what I was thinking. I actually had a long write-up ready to submit, then decided that it wasn't worth the effort. Caul, Athas.org has gone to a great deal of effort to combine the feel, heart, and mind of the original Dark Sun game. A GREAT deal of effort. That same effort was not expended by the editor of Dragon magazine that went at that article. It's fantastic that you're trying to play peacemaker, but you're wrong. Sorry, but that's the truth. There are so many splits from the original Dark Sun in the Dragon article that it's practically a different world. If you want to say that this is some other world, that's fine: just don't call it Athas. On to your suggestions: in my opinion, sorcerers, monks, whatever, are fine. Sorcerers still have to draw in energy to cast a spell, so they'll still be stoned whether they have a spell book or not. Psionics doesn't kill plants and small animals. Monks are mentioned in the City of Nibenay in Ivory Triangle, so I allow them in my campaign. They're weird and they're powerful, but so what? Give a fighter the right feats and a big obsidian sword and the odds are evened. Paladins on Athas is stupid. Period. Bards are assassins, so the base bard must be adjusted to reflect their twisted nature on Athas. |
| #4xlorepdarkhelm_dupApr 09, 2004 11:53:03 | Originally posted by Dawnstealer I keep forgetting about the monks being mentioned in Ivory Triangle. I don't know why I keep forgetting about them, but I do. It might be that I usually don't have campaigns which lead to the Ivory Triangle... |
| #5dawnstealerApr 09, 2004 12:21:13 | Me either, but when 3e rolled out the doors, and my players wanted in, I felt obliged. Since I've been playing dnd since 1e, I was pretty familiar with monks and barbarians, so I let the players play those characters. Monks had to be from Nibenay, but we started in Balic. Like you, my players rarely go North of Draj, or East Nibenay. They've gone to Nibenay a few times, and Gulg once or twice, but seem far more fascinated with the Ringing Mountains and the barrier cliffs and the south, obviously. Occasionally, they'll pop out to the islands in the Silt sea, but they bypass the Ivory Triangle by leaving from Guistenal or Balic. |
| #6zombiegleemaxApr 09, 2004 22:39:55 | We, as Dark Sun Fanatics, really need to use this board as a source of creative criticism and output rather than simply a place for us to gripe about what we think should or shouldn't be in our favorite campaign setting. Well, the griping is at least contained to the appropriate threads. The few threads created to talk about the Drag/Dungeon articles were set up as a nice little debate of pros and cons, etc. Its not as if every thread contains a bunch of bemaoning about this, that, or the other. I think all in all, we're making excellent use of the rest of the 27 pages worth of posts quite well. In short, we've been doing just that all along. No real switching of gears neccessary. Sorry that three, maybe four threads gave that general impression. I have been playing and running Dark Sun since its inception, and I have to say without a doubt that there is no place in the setting for a knight encased in metal armor travelling the land to vanquish evil at the behest of his god, or in our case, an elemental power or god forbid a Dragon King lol, I'm fighting a one sided little battle on this one over at EnWorld. Its really cracking me up that, in order to justify the paladin, it seems that the class has to be so changed around as to not really resemble the paladin at all. Its either a psychic warrior with a code of ethics, an elemental champion without the code (what do elementals care about honor and chivalry), or a very moral fighter. BTW, it would be nice to have some backup there, hint, hint. I'm not the most eloquent person when I'm chuckling too much to myself to even spell correctly ;) |