Chaos Creatures: Undead or Outsiders? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Chaos Creatures: Undead or Outsiders?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
baron_the_curse
Apr 09, 2004 23:02:28 I was perusing through the Bestiary section of the Nexus and I came across James O’Rance Daemon Warrior and Deamonlord. The conversion from 2nd Edition to d20 seems fair enough, and I specially like Divine Vulnerability, which I find too sick of a weakness but in keeping with the novel. However, I don’t agree with the Chaos Daemon’s descriptor of Undead. I believe they are Outsiders but I can’t be sure. Does anyone know “officially” if in the novels Chaos creatures where consider Undead or Outsiders? Very vaguely I remember reading in Planescape that the army of Chaos marching through the planes caused a stirred since you rarely see so many demons marching off to fight a cause outside the Blood War.
#2
zombiegleemax
Apr 10, 2004 7:09:28
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I was perusing through the Bestiary section of the Nexus and I came across James O’Rance Daemon Warrior and Deamonlord. The conversion from 2nd Edition to d20 seems fair enough, and I specially like Divine Vulnerability, which I find too sick of a weakness but in keeping with the novel. However, I don’t agree with the Chaos Daemon’s descriptor of Undead. I believe they are Outsiders but I can’t be sure. Does anyone know “officially” if in the novels Chaos creatures where consider Undead or Outsiders? Very vaguely I remember reading in Planescape that the army of Chaos marching through the planes caused a stirred since you rarely see so many demons marching off to fight a cause outside the Blood War.

Both the Daemonlord and Daemon Warrior are in the Bestiary of Krynn, and both are Outsiders.

Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
#3
baron_the_curse
Apr 10, 2004 8:38:55 Thank you, my instinct served me right. I can hardly wait for the Bestiary to come out…. and Wednesdays I seem to anticipate them now… how strange.
#4
iltharanos
Apr 10, 2004 17:28:57
Originally posted by jechambers
Both the Daemonlord and Daemon Warrior are in the Bestiary of Krynn, and both are Outsiders.

Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.

That is so cool. My players will absolutely love me once they meet them.
#5
cam_banks
Apr 10, 2004 21:38:04
Originally posted by iltharanos
That is so cool. My players will absolutely love me once they meet them.

I can assure you that they are really, really scary. But not the scariest things in the book...

Cheers,
Cam
#6
zombiegleemax
Apr 11, 2004 11:03:32 Humm Baron, do you think it would be possible for you to remember exactly in what Planescape product you did read about the army of Chaos ?

And by the by, you can add one more kodragon supporter to your list, guys! (I'm all for investigating the specific planes of DL and their particularities...)
#7
baron_the_curse
Apr 11, 2004 16:35:44 I’ll look for it. It was an off-hand comment about the troubles of Krynn and it’s god’s endless appetite for war. Or at least it would seem that way to outsiders.
#8
brimstone
Apr 12, 2004 9:39:05 I was reading over the DL DM Screen this weekend, and I noticed that too that the Chaos creatures didn't have a home. (they used to be considered undead...but that never seemed to fit well, I thought).

I assume the Shadow Wights and Frost Wights are Oustiders as well?
#9
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2004 16:59:58
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I’ll look for it. It was an off-hand comment about the troubles of Krynn and it’s god’s endless appetite for war. Or at least it would seem that way to outsiders.

I think it was in 'Guide to the Ethereal Plane'. But I'm not sure.
#10
ferratus
Apr 12, 2004 17:03:45 I'm thinking a lot of the Chaos creatures probably won't make the cut, such as the Cedar Spawn. :D

Is the Daemonlord still invincible except to those that witness his summoning, or was that simply an effect of the ritual that summoned the first one?
#11
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2004 22:28:16
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I can assure you that they are really, really scary. But not the scariest things in the book...

Cheers,
Cam

Of course daemon warriors and lords wouldn't be the scariest ting in the book...if shadow wights are in it. They are the scariest thing in the world to me. Whoever came up with them is either a genius or a very, very sick and twisted person.
#12
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2004 22:32:14 I guess that to me the only way that chaos creatures being undead would make sense is if they were labeled as follows

(insert chaos creature name)
Medium Undead (Extraplanar)

That way not only are they undead, but it is obvious that they are not of this world.
#13
cam_banks
Apr 12, 2004 22:54:06
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
That way not only are they undead, but it is obvious that they are not of this world.

Let's just say that not all chaos creatures have the same creature type, although they are all chaotic.

Cheers,
Cam
#14
ferratus
Apr 12, 2004 23:41:35
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Let's just say that not all chaos creatures have the same creature type, although they are all chaotic.

That's a very smart idea. Chaos effectively just created a chaotic counterpart to the High God's creation to cancel out the world. Sort of a matter-anti-matter deal. Makes sense.

So you can have chaos plants, chaos animals, chaos undead, chaos outsiders, chaos fey, chaos monstrous humanoids...
#15
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2004 23:56:46
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Of course daemon warriors and lords wouldn't be the scariest ting in the book...if shadow wights are in it. They are the scariest thing in the world to me.

Without question. Out of any creature from any fantasy world *ever* those just might be the last things I'd want to face.
#16
ferratus
Apr 13, 2004 0:45:02 Not me. I know that very few of us will be remembered after our immediate kith and kin pass on, a process that will take about a century. After that we are just a gravestone that is never visited and gradually wears away. Well, if it isn't paved over for new development of course, which it probably will.

So other than the killing, I don't see what is so terrifying. We are just one among millions in your city, one of billions in the world. A drop in a sea of humanity.

Depressing, ain't it? ;) The thing is, most people know this. They have always known it. Heck, that is one of the main themes of the Illiad. That is why people are desperate to be noticed, to have fame or infamy, why they seek to escape their insignificant lives through escapist entertainment.

That's why I don't find the shadow wight particularly scary. He just speeds up the inevitable. ;)
#17
zombiegleemax
Apr 13, 2004 1:18:19 Well, now that you mention it, if I ever ran across a Shadow Wight *by myself* they definitely wouldn't be as scary as something that would kill me in a slow and agonizing way. If I get killed by a Shadow Wight, no big, God will remember me and remind my loved ones when they get to heaven. ;)

But having one of those suckers crash a family gathering would be one of the worst things ever. Well, depending on your family.

So off the top of my head I'd have to say that the most fearsome creature to face in all of Dragonlance would probably be a young Red Dragon. Being burned alive has got to be one of the worst deaths ever, and the big Reds would probably just vaporize you with their inferno breath. The smaller ones would cook you nice and slow....

Anything that gets under your skin (literally) like a rot grub would rank up there too. *shudder*

But then again I've had a healthy phobia of sharks (which manifests even if I'm in extremely deep fresh water) ever since I saw Jaws as a kid (thank you Mr. Spielberg) so a Krynnish Great White would do the trick almost as well as the others. Having my limbs bitten off from a giant murky shape under the water...no thanks.

Such a pleasant discussion.
#18
Nived
Apr 13, 2004 2:16:07 Exactly being killed by a Shadow Wight isn't what's terrifying, its being a survivor. Imagine that you know that you lived with your family your whole life, you know that's your house, you know that other people had to live there with you, you KNOW you had a family... but you can't remember any of them.

Think about having a child, but not knowing who you had it with, or KNOWING you have a grandchild but not remembering your own child.

Besides, at least how Dragons of the Summer Flame explained it there was no afterlife for those killed by a Shadow Wight... there is no heaven, no hell, nothing. Utter non-existance, total oblivion, no eventual reunion in the next world. You cease to exist.

Perhaps not that horrible since you wont be around to agonize over your lack of existance, but still. That's gotta suck.
#19
brimstone
Apr 13, 2004 10:04:26 Ah...but you guys are forgetting the most important part: the reason that everyone forgets about you.

You are forgotten, not because the Shadow Wight steals memories...you are forgotten because the Shadow Wight steals experiences and it sucks them into oblivion. As we saw in Redmeption they can steal just part of your existance...causing you to forget your past, your friends, your family...not a good way to continue living.

But the most horrifying thing is...in Dragonlance, everyone has a soul, and when people die, they move into the Progression of Souls and move on to the next stage of existance. The Shadow (and Frost) Wight doesn't allow you to do this if it kills you outright. You are forgotten, because for all intents and purposes you never existed...you're whole being, mind, body, and soul, cease to be, and it's as if it never was. (and I don't even think the Gods can remember you...ah the joys of chaos)

So, yeah...I'm pretty sure death by a Shadow Wight would suck...royally. Because, it's more than just physical death.
#20
kipper_snifferdoo_02
Apr 13, 2004 10:12:19 In my campaign I've been toying with the idea of having my players run into a Shadow Wight. What I would do is make a pile of armor and clothing suddenly appear in front of the Shadow Wight as it is approaching. And when the combat is done they'll try to figure out who the stuff belongs to and I would make all the evidence point to the fact that it was perhaps a husband of one of the elven sisters or a brother to the Kagonesti half-elf. The players would have no memory of him because they actually have never encountered him, but surprise, now Theanna suddenly has a 7 year old kid and no one has any idea who the father is because the Shadow Wight sucked him into oblivion.
#21
brimstone
Apr 13, 2004 10:32:56
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
The players would have no memory of him because they actually have never encountered him, but surprise, now Theanna suddenly has a 7 year old kid and no one has any idea who the father is because the Shadow Wight sucked him into oblivion.

That is deliciously evil! And a perfect way of sufficiently freaking out the PCs they way they should be.

I love it!
#22
Nived
Apr 13, 2004 11:03:00 I've been toying around with an idea for a PC, as a teenager he was the sole survivor of a town that was straight ravaged by Shadow Wights. It was a small out of the way town, and he had never been more than a few miles away... Shadow Wights attack the town... kill everyone, except him for some reason.

Imagine this, everyone you have ever known, and everyone that has ever known you is dead, but worse than that, they have ceased to be. Imagine the psychological trauma of standing in an empty town square, knowing you've lived here all your life, but remembering no one. No one at all. I think you'd have to snap a little. Imagine growing up in a small town where everyone knew everyone, you never had to introduce yourself to anyone... your name was something other people called you to get your attention. With memory of everyone else gone could you even remember your name? Shortly put, this one can't, whether his name was erased with the slaughter of the town or from the trauma, its just gone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 baron_the_curse Apr 09, 2004 23:02:28	I was perusing through the Bestiary section of the Nexus and I came across James O’Rance Daemon Warrior and Deamonlord. The conversion from 2nd Edition to d20 seems fair enough, and I specially like Divine Vulnerability, which I find too sick of a weakness but in keeping with the novel. However, I don’t agree with the Chaos Daemon’s descriptor of Undead. I believe they are Outsiders but I can’t be sure. Does anyone know “officially” if in the novels Chaos creatures where consider Undead or Outsiders? Very vaguely I remember reading in Planescape that the army of Chaos marching through the planes caused a stirred since you rarely see so many demons marching off to fight a cause outside the Blood War.
#2 zombiegleemax Apr 10, 2004 7:09:28	Originally posted by Baron the Curse I was perusing through the Bestiary section of the Nexus and I came across James O’Rance Daemon Warrior and Deamonlord. The conversion from 2nd Edition to d20 seems fair enough, and I specially like Divine Vulnerability, which I find too sick of a weakness but in keeping with the novel. However, I don’t agree with the Chaos Daemon’s descriptor of Undead. I believe they are Outsiders but I can’t be sure. Does anyone know “officially” if in the novels Chaos creatures where consider Undead or Outsiders? Very vaguely I remember reading in Planescape that the army of Chaos marching through the planes caused a stirred since you rarely see so many demons marching off to fight a cause outside the Blood War. Both the Daemonlord and Daemon Warrior are in the Bestiary of Krynn, and both are Outsiders. Jamie Chambers Sovereign Press, Inc.
#3 baron_the_curse Apr 10, 2004 8:38:55	Thank you, my instinct served me right. I can hardly wait for the Bestiary to come out…. and Wednesdays I seem to anticipate them now… how strange.
#4 iltharanos Apr 10, 2004 17:28:57	Originally posted by jechambers Both the Daemonlord and Daemon Warrior are in the Bestiary of Krynn, and both are Outsiders. Jamie Chambers Sovereign Press, Inc. That is so cool. My players will absolutely love me once they meet them.
#5 cam_banks Apr 10, 2004 21:38:04	Originally posted by iltharanos That is so cool. My players will absolutely love me once they meet them. I can assure you that they are really, really scary. But not the scariest things in the book... Cheers, Cam
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 11, 2004 11:03:32	Humm Baron, do you think it would be possible for you to remember exactly in what Planescape product you did read about the army of Chaos ? And by the by, you can add one more kodragon supporter to your list, guys! (I'm all for investigating the specific planes of DL and their particularities...)
#7 baron_the_curse Apr 11, 2004 16:35:44	I’ll look for it. It was an off-hand comment about the troubles of Krynn and it’s god’s endless appetite for war. Or at least it would seem that way to outsiders.
#8 brimstone Apr 12, 2004 9:39:05	I was reading over the DL DM Screen this weekend, and I noticed that too that the Chaos creatures didn't have a home. (they used to be considered undead...but that never seemed to fit well, I thought). I assume the Shadow Wights and Frost Wights are Oustiders as well?
#9 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2004 16:59:58	Originally posted by Baron the Curse I’ll look for it. It was an off-hand comment about the troubles of Krynn and it’s god’s endless appetite for war. Or at least it would seem that way to outsiders. I think it was in 'Guide to the Ethereal Plane'. But I'm not sure.
#10 ferratus Apr 12, 2004 17:03:45	I'm thinking a lot of the Chaos creatures probably won't make the cut, such as the Cedar Spawn. :D Is the Daemonlord still invincible except to those that witness his summoning, or was that simply an effect of the ritual that summoned the first one?
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2004 22:28:16	Originally posted by Cam Banks I can assure you that they are really, really scary. But not the scariest things in the book... Cheers, Cam Of course daemon warriors and lords wouldn't be the scariest ting in the book...if shadow wights are in it. They are the scariest thing in the world to me. Whoever came up with them is either a genius or a very, very sick and twisted person.
#12 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2004 22:32:14	I guess that to me the only way that chaos creatures being undead would make sense is if they were labeled as follows (insert chaos creature name) Medium Undead (Extraplanar) That way not only are they undead, but it is obvious that they are not of this world.
#13 cam_banks Apr 12, 2004 22:54:06	Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst That way not only are they undead, but it is obvious that they are not of this world. Let's just say that not all chaos creatures have the same creature type, although they are all chaotic. Cheers, Cam
#14 ferratus Apr 12, 2004 23:41:35	Originally posted by Cam Banks Let's just say that not all chaos creatures have the same creature type, although they are all chaotic. That's a very smart idea. Chaos effectively just created a chaotic counterpart to the High God's creation to cancel out the world. Sort of a matter-anti-matter deal. Makes sense. So you can have chaos plants, chaos animals, chaos undead, chaos outsiders, chaos fey, chaos monstrous humanoids...
#15 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2004 23:56:46	Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007 Of course daemon warriors and lords wouldn't be the scariest ting in the book...if shadow wights are in it. They are the scariest thing in the world to me. Without question. Out of any creature from any fantasy world ever those just might be the last things I'd want to face.
#16 ferratus Apr 13, 2004 0:45:02	Not me. I know that very few of us will be remembered after our immediate kith and kin pass on, a process that will take about a century. After that we are just a gravestone that is never visited and gradually wears away. Well, if it isn't paved over for new development of course, which it probably will. So other than the killing, I don't see what is so terrifying. We are just one among millions in your city, one of billions in the world. A drop in a sea of humanity. Depressing, ain't it? ;) The thing is, most people know this. They have always known it. Heck, that is one of the main themes of the Illiad. That is why people are desperate to be noticed, to have fame or infamy, why they seek to escape their insignificant lives through escapist entertainment. That's why I don't find the shadow wight particularly scary. He just speeds up the inevitable. ;)
#17 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 1:18:19	Well, now that you mention it, if I ever ran across a Shadow Wight by myself they definitely wouldn't be as scary as something that would kill me in a slow and agonizing way. If I get killed by a Shadow Wight, no big, God will remember me and remind my loved ones when they get to heaven. ;) But having one of those suckers crash a family gathering would be one of the worst things ever. Well, depending on your family. So off the top of my head I'd have to say that the most fearsome creature to face in all of Dragonlance would probably be a young Red Dragon. Being burned alive has got to be one of the worst deaths ever, and the big Reds would probably just vaporize you with their inferno breath. The smaller ones would cook you nice and slow.... Anything that gets under your skin (literally) like a rot grub would rank up there too. shudder But then again I've had a healthy phobia of sharks (which manifests even if I'm in extremely deep fresh water) ever since I saw Jaws as a kid (thank you Mr. Spielberg) so a Krynnish Great White would do the trick almost as well as the others. Having my limbs bitten off from a giant murky shape under the water...no thanks. Such a pleasant discussion.
#18 Nived Apr 13, 2004 2:16:07	Exactly being killed by a Shadow Wight isn't what's terrifying, its being a survivor. Imagine that you know that you lived with your family your whole life, you know that's your house, you know that other people had to live there with you, you KNOW you had a family... but you can't remember any of them. Think about having a child, but not knowing who you had it with, or KNOWING you have a grandchild but not remembering your own child. Besides, at least how Dragons of the Summer Flame explained it there was no afterlife for those killed by a Shadow Wight... there is no heaven, no hell, nothing. Utter non-existance, total oblivion, no eventual reunion in the next world. You cease to exist. Perhaps not that horrible since you wont be around to agonize over your lack of existance, but still. That's gotta suck.
#19 brimstone Apr 13, 2004 10:04:26	Ah...but you guys are forgetting the most important part: the reason that everyone forgets about you. You are forgotten, not because the Shadow Wight steals memories...you are forgotten because the Shadow Wight steals experiences and it sucks them into oblivion. As we saw in Redmeption they can steal just part of your existance...causing you to forget your past, your friends, your family...not a good way to continue living. But the most horrifying thing is...in Dragonlance, everyone has a soul, and when people die, they move into the Progression of Souls and move on to the next stage of existance. The Shadow (and Frost) Wight doesn't allow you to do this if it kills you outright. You are forgotten, because for all intents and purposes you never existed...you're whole being, mind, body, and soul, cease to be, and it's as if it never was. (and I don't even think the Gods can remember you...ah the joys of chaos) So, yeah...I'm pretty sure death by a Shadow Wight would suck...royally. Because, it's more than just physical death.
#20 kipper_snifferdoo_02 Apr 13, 2004 10:12:19	In my campaign I've been toying with the idea of having my players run into a Shadow Wight. What I would do is make a pile of armor and clothing suddenly appear in front of the Shadow Wight as it is approaching. And when the combat is done they'll try to figure out who the stuff belongs to and I would make all the evidence point to the fact that it was perhaps a husband of one of the elven sisters or a brother to the Kagonesti half-elf. The players would have no memory of him because they actually have never encountered him, but surprise, now Theanna suddenly has a 7 year old kid and no one has any idea who the father is because the Shadow Wight sucked him into oblivion.
#21 brimstone Apr 13, 2004 10:32:56	Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo The players would have no memory of him because they actually have never encountered him, but surprise, now Theanna suddenly has a 7 year old kid and no one has any idea who the father is because the Shadow Wight sucked him into oblivion. That is deliciously evil! And a perfect way of sufficiently freaking out the PCs they way they should be. I love it!
#22 Nived Apr 13, 2004 11:03:00	I've been toying around with an idea for a PC, as a teenager he was the sole survivor of a town that was straight ravaged by Shadow Wights. It was a small out of the way town, and he had never been more than a few miles away... Shadow Wights attack the town... kill everyone, except him for some reason. Imagine this, everyone you have ever known, and everyone that has ever known you is dead, but worse than that, they have ceased to be. Imagine the psychological trauma of standing in an empty town square, knowing you've lived here all your life, but remembering no one. No one at all. I think you'd have to snap a little. Imagine growing up in a small town where everyone knew everyone, you never had to introduce yourself to anyone... your name was something other people called you to get your attention. With memory of everyone else gone could you even remember your name? Shortly put, this one can't, whether his name was erased with the slaughter of the town or from the trauma, its just gone.