Jason
Check out the search option too. There have been previous discussions about this topic.
However, I would recommend picking up the upcoming Towers of High Sorcery. There may be further info on the subject in there.
Jason
So the first question is whether or not sorcerers technically are renegades or a different magical tradition. Then we have to know whether the conclave will tolerate co-existance (they seem not to mind clerics and mystics). Then we have to find out what role the conclave will take when they realize that it would simply be a war they can't win.
In the metagaming sense, wild sorcery is here to stay. The wizards will never be allowed to drive it from the face of Krynn by the real-world game designers.
In the in-world sense, sorcerers far outnumber wizards, and wild sorcerers do not require training. They simply need to be born with the gift, which means there will always be more sorcerers no matter how hard the WoHS try to stamp them out. The war simply could not be won, and would never cease, an untenable position for the wizards of high sorcery. It was okay when you had a renegade or two every decade, but killing people by the hundreds, people who have kith and kin, will ensure that the wizards are hunted by everyone.
Thus, obviously, the wizards of high sorcerery will probably become the overseers of all of the other magical traditions, watching to make sure that magic isn't used by the insane, the irresponsible, or those dabbling in various "forbidden" arts which would threaten magic or the world as a whole. These would be the new renegades.
Now whether Dalamar is stupid enough to start a full scale war with the sorcerers is something that we will find out in future books. We know the outcome of the war however, which steals a lot of the drama of such as storyline.
Originally posted by Hrumachis
Think about it- a lawful and disciplined Order of the most intelligent minds on ansalon against a disordered bunch of Charismatic loners. History has shown (both real life and krynnish history) that Victory comes to the disciplined and determined.
It helps that Margaret's stated on more than one occasion that those who practice wild magic are renegades. You don't need to be a wizard to be branded a renegade from the Orders, especially when giving up wild magic and taking up high sorcery is possible. Using magic tainted by chaos? Red flag! Red flag!
Cheers,
Cam
The Wizards of High Sorcery are just now reorganizing. They don't have the power or organization yet to go after the sorcerers.
Meanwhile, sorcerers are the most numerous arcane spellcasters of this time. Problem is, they have little organization, as they tend to be loners.
The Legion of Steel has some sorcerers, but most are split between cells, with little to no overreaching arcane power.
Meanwhile, we have the Knights of the Thorn. They could go any number of directions, from an opponent that would destroy the reforming orders to starting a recruitment drive. Imagine if you will...
"Look into the sky! Above you are the moons of magic. They speak of power, but it is a power tainted by death. For those who enter their orders know that to take the Test, one may die. It is an oppressive view, to sentence potential members to death, simply for not having the talents of others. If you refuse to join their orders, they will hunt you down, and destroy you. There is no safe haven for a wizard."
"Don't think that you sorcerers are safe, either! For the Orders of High Sorcery blame you and your kind for the devastation of ages past. They claim that your magic is wild, tainted by the power of Chaos!"
"Only the benevolent Knights of the Thorn stand against this oppression. We stand together, brothers and sisters, against this sort of opression. It matters not if you are wizard or sorcerer - we make no such distinction. Our goal is to re-establish order in this time of turmoil."
"To touch the Thorn Knights is to bleed, such as when the hand touches a thorn on the rose. So too will the Orders of High Sorcery learn this lesson. No more shall they impose their elitist view on others. No more shall they force their ways. Now wizard and sorcerer can stand together in one order, for the benefit of order for all of Krynn."
Not a bad piece of propaganda, huh? ;)
Originally posted by Hrumachis
If I remember correctly the Thorn Knights have to take there own test, do they not?
Correct. All Knights of Neraka do.
Of course, they don't have to mention that on the brochure. ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Not a bad piece of propaganda, huh? ;)
Not intended as an insult, but it has a sort of Nazi-like feel to it. It's kinda creepy in that respect.
One thing that has me wondering is how the wizards will treat draconians, especially the magic using ones, now that they are a true race. Will the wizards try to recruit the draconians into their order, or will they see them as a threat?
Originally posted by Daedavias
Not intended as an insult, but it has a sort of Nazi-like feel to it. It's kinda creepy in that respect.
To be honest, I think the Knights of Neraka have a bit of a Nazi-like feel to them, so that would be in character. Sorry, didn't mean to creep anyone out.
One thing that has me wondering is how the wizards will treat draconians, especially the magic using ones, now that they are a true race. Will the wizards try to recruit the draconians into their order, or will they see them as a threat?
The WoHS will treat draconians the same way they have any other race that has casted magic inherently throughout the ages. Essentially, they'll leave them alone, unless they become a threat.
Originally posted by Daedavias
One thing that has me wondering is how the wizards will treat draconians, especially the magic using ones, now that they are a true race. Will the wizards try to recruit the draconians into their order, or will they see them as a threat?
I dunno. Depends. Will they try to recruit the true dragons into their order?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
To be honest, I think the Knights of Neraka have a bit of a Nazi-like feel to them, so that would be in character. Sorry, didn't mean to creep anyone out.
No need for apologies. The Gray Robes are creepy. I think the Knights of Neraka's fascist influences are pretty obvious and help to give folks a clear idea of how to portray them - in some areas, they're jackbooted thugs who gain confidence in numbers and use power to dominate and oppress others. In other areas, they plot and plan diabolical means to overthrow the offices of righteous and noble power in the free provinces of Ansalon and draw upon foul magic to do so. What's a fascist organization without a little scary occult conspiracy?
Cheers,
Cam
I mean, they could create a universal set of laws (not the laws of the conclave!) and say to all those wanna be Raistlins out there that "if you try try x, we will hunt you down and do y to you."
Hence, you have a reason for the orders still existing, a reason for people to want to join the conclave (there is power in enforcing the law), and a way for the gods to still kinda control magic.
In the sense of propaganda, I have the following for you...
"Lately, we have recieved complants of the brutality of our black robed wizards. We have also recieved complants from our black robes that their powers of punishment are too limited. Therefore to solve both problems, we have insituted a new policy. No survivers, no complaints."
"We can read your minds, we can scry your location, we can show you the effects of the morph-gender spell."
"You knew him once as Uncle Sam, know you know him as Uncle Thunderboot. A kender mage comming your way..."
Originally posted by Lily_Knight
Could they become the Ansalonian police of magic?
That's exactly what the Knights of the Thorn wish to become. They want to eradicate the Order of High Sorcery, the sorcerers, and any other magical user that they don't directly control. They wish to establish a tyranny of magic.
Luckily there are heroes and the armies of other nations to stand in their way eh?
As for the war with sorcerers, I have no doubt that such a war is a possible or even likely occurance. I do doubt however that sorcerers will lose, or that the Wizards of High Sorcery will lose. If neither lose, you either have endless warfare or an eventual compromise peace. I think we will all eventually get sick of endless war and wish to focus on what we can do to make magic on Krynn more diverse.
For all the in-world situations which could make things go either way according to a particular designer's preferences, it is the metagaming aspects which ultimately seal the fate of the wizard/sorcerer war. A bit sad perhaps, but no less true.
5th age fans understandably want to keep sorcerers around, and to see their type of magic to grow and become a central part of the setting, rather than the afterthought it is now.
4th Age fans on the other hand are very protective of the Wizard of High Sorcery as anything but a dyed in the wool 2e wizard. So any other 3e character combination which involves magic in a non-traditional role (arcane trickster, spellfilch, eldritch knight etc.) is automatically assigned to the sorcerer. Since most of us have gotten addicted to the versatility of 3e the sorcerers are gradually becoming "all magic that isn't robes and staffs" which means sorcerers and WoHS are going to show up in krynnish PC parties together more and more.
That is why I say, eventually, the WoHS will switch from a Murder, Death, Kill mode for dealing with sorcerers to a guardian role of magic. Someone who keeps an eye on the various areas of Krynn to make sure there isn't mad sorcerers seeking to blow up all of creation.
One thing that everyone keeps forgetting, and I cannot stress this enough, is that Wizards and Sorcerers have never co-existed before. Wild magic is not renegade magic, because all renegades have before been wizards. You cannot deny the sorcerer as a class before the 5th Age and have them be the traditional enemies of the WoHS at the same time. The sorcerers are new, and whether they are enemies or not has yet to be determined.
Many sorcerers may oppose this, but if the WoHS gave some sort of incentive to joining, perhaps many would do so willingly. Or perhaps they'd come up with their own propaganda.
Draco Caeruleus
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
To be honest, I think the Knights of Neraka have a bit of a Nazi-like feel to them, so that would be in character. Sorry, didn't mean to creep anyone out.
The WoHS will treat draconians the same way they have any other race that has casted magic inherently throughout the ages. Essentially, they'll leave them alone, unless they become a threat.
No, don't appologize, it was cool. That entire thing made my skin crawl. No wonder they have you writing for the comic!
I figured the wizards would let the dracos be, but I was just gonna make sure.
Originally posted by Daedavias
No, don't appologize, it was cool. That entire thing made my skin crawl. No wonder they have you writing for the comic!
Lol!
Well thank you for the compliment. I appreciate that.
By the way, issue #3 should be out this week. That's my first issue on the comic.
