After playing rolemaster, I've never really liked how wussed out misisle weapons were in D&D, especially crossbows, especially the way point blank is used, in Rolemaster it was much deadlier.
Now I'm not suggesting a mingle of the two systems, but maybe some tweaking can be done, like up the threat range by 1, and increase it by 1 further when using point blank range.
I also plan to allow keen and improved critical to stack as per Sean K. Reynolds rant, but that's neither here or there since I'm not sure whether I will allow something similar to keen for other types of weapons.
Thoughts?
Do you want to deal with a PC wielding a Scimitar with an effective threat range of 12-20? With a high Strength bonus and Weapon Specialization and Power Attack and magical enhancements?
Would your players like to fight a bad guy with the above combo?
Consider this scenario:
Player: I won Initiative so I get to hit the bad guy while he is flatfooted. I will use Power attack on him. "rolls dice" Yes!!! A 13, that's a Critical Hit. "rolls dice" A 14!!! Confirmed Crit! "rolls dice" 6 + my STR mod. of +4 and with +2 for Weapon Spec. and +4 for Power Attack and +2 for my magic Scimitar that's 18 Wound Points. Is he Dead?
DM:
My point is that any increase of Threat Range also increases the likelihood of One Hit, One Kill Criticals.
In my D&D campaign I also use the Wound Point/Vitality Points rules but the Threat Range of all weapons is a natural 20.
Keen and Improved Critical do stack but the Sword and Fist book is banned so I don't have to deal with the Prestige Classes that increase Threat Range.
Second of all, this is for my D20 DS campaign, and I don't plan to hand out magic/divine/psionic items out to the point where anyone would have that combo any time soon.
Third of all, there is only one PrC that I know of in S&F that increases threat ranges and that's the Weapon Master, which requires a crap load of prequisites to get into, and in most cases isn't worth it to most players.
Anyways, I think that could be a way to do things. Missile weapons do need help in D&D, and a lot.
The only thing I don't like is that this would still mean that arrows kill by lucky shot, and not by skill.
I have considered, and tryed, using a system in which a player hitting with 10 or more than needed on his attack roll scored a crit, but that just comes off bad at high level, since you would crit all the time.
Since I also use the wound point system, that comes off as way too deadly, since opponents have little they can do to increase their defence, compared to increasing BABs.
I'll probably end up reworking this with the defense bonus as some kind of guideline for when you get to crit with high rolls. Not sure yet, and probably wont do this for a while.
But I do think increasing the threat range of range weapons is a good idea.
And by the way, though this is not very D&D, it is far more realistic when battles involve more ''one shot, one kill''. No matter how tuff you're supposed to be, you can be sure it won't take 5-6 arrows, or worse, sword stikes, to take you down. This ''prolonged hack and slash'', common to many, but not all, RPGs can be fun, but is highly irrealistic, when not completely stupid, especially with arrows:
exemple 1:
ftr3: Stop or I'll shoot!!!
ftr4: Pfff, take your best shot. Look, I'll even stand right here and wait until you do. My AC won't change a bit and I'm level 4 so I have 38hp. You have one chance out of 20 to crit me, and even then, the max you'Ll do with that puny longbow is 24. So go ahead, I'm coming through...
ftr3: ah go to... (shoot, does evidently not crit, opponent walses in and makes the kill...)
example 2:
com1, hunting with a shortbow: I see a dear! Careful now...
(shoots, is not lucky so does not crit, dmg 4, dear runs away)
com1: damn... I hope I get the next one.
(an hour later)
com1: caaaarrrreeeeful...
(shoots, is not lucky so does not crit, dmg 6, dear runs away)
com1:...
(3 hours later)
com1: this time....
(shoots and is lucky! CRITS! rolls 3-4-3: dmg 10: dear (11hp) runs away!)
com1: man I wish I was in RoleMaster!!!
By the way, for a hunting commoner to acutally kill a dear, he MUST roll a crit (1 chance in 20) and MUST roll higher than average on damage (11 out of 18) which makes the average hunting commoner kill once in every 40 shots that hits. Also, since the commoner has no real attack bonus, lets say +2 because of dex, he'll hit less than half the time, which makes it one kill shot in about 90 arrows.
yeah D&D!!!
I prefer having one shots, one kill sometimes than 90 shots, one kill all the time... :D
Something else I might add.
Either making it a feat or a missile weapon ability, but giving the ability to get the multiplier dmg when using the vitality/wound system, but only allow that to kick in at point blank range only.
This would make crossbows extremely deadly, and more realistic.
The thing is, many RPGs' solution to making higher level character better in combat is enabeling him to sustain more damage in combat. Realisticly, though an experienced warrior might be able to endure more pain, he could not endure more sword blows, or arrow shots. Actually, the idea is that more experienced warriors get better at avoiding damage, not enduring it.
BTW, those interested in a combat system that's simpler than RoleMaster, but really realistic, should check out what Decipher did with Lord of the Rings. That's probably the best one I played, but it needs a little tweaking. A re-edition might be warranted.
But the problem is, that you can't make a system too deadly, as it becomes unplayable. You either use the wound/vitality point system, or increase the threat ranges and multiplayers. Both is maybe too much, don't you think?
After all D&D is heroic fantasy. The realism is still OK (not counting the case of deer hunting commoner
) if you are thinking in level 1-2. One shot-one kill is working then. At higher level the characters become heroes, who are -by definition- able to endure 5-6 arrows or sword strikes. And from that point on reality gives place to heroism, and the system is built with such intention. The whole 3.5 D&D should be re-worked to change this.My 0.2 cent only...
Originally posted by Nagypapi
But the problem is, that you can't make a system too deadly, as it becomes unplayable. You either use the wound/vitality point system, or increase the threat ranges and multiplayers. Both is maybe too much, don't you think?
The vitality wound thing increases all the threats by one for the most part anyways, and that's for every weapon.
What I am doing is making the use of missile weapons more realistic, and while I think upping the threat range across the board on missile weapons then upping it again in point blank range doesn't make much sense now that I have thought about it.
However, increasing the threat range for all missile weapons by 1 when used in point blank range should work without much problems and is more realistic. Getting shot with a heavy crossbow at point blank range can pretty much kill anyone, or do enough damage where it comes close.
Adding this further to allowing the damage multiplier to kick in at point blank range, with a feat or magic missile weapon ability, might be another step in the right direction.
The point I'm trying to make is that combat is hard, and very dangerous. The only place this is true is in the D&D system for the most part where a hero can jump off a 100 ft. cliff and with the right abilities shrug most if not all of it off.
I'm wanting it to be a little more realistic than that is all.
However, increasing the threat range for all missile weapons by 1 when used in point blank range should work without much problems and is more realistic. Getting shot with a heavy crossbow at point blank range can pretty much kill anyone, or do enough damage where it comes close.
If your going for absolute realism, an analogy would be that more people are injured by a gun than are killed by one, on perhaps as much as a 20 to 1 ratio. I would imagine a crossbow bolt to be less deadly than a bullet. Just some perspective. Granted, I would also imagine those figures don't take into consideration the current state of medical care helping someone pull through a serious gun shot injury, but even a 10 to 1 ratio is a pretty big difference.
Anyways...
You're right, a better analogy would say that this allows a better chance to get wounded more, since crits in this system deal wound point damage and not vitality damage.
For Wound/Vitality, I simply increase the threat range of missile weapons in D&D yet one extra point than what is listed, primarily because I feel they should be extra lethal.
I don't think the crit system is all that off in D&D, so much as that there is no rule for bleeding to death. (I'm sure there is somewhere, but I never looked for it)
P.S.
Please don't call my Dad a heartless killer. We grew up poor, and a $10 box of shells (combined with his better than 20/20 vision, curse him!! I can't see 2 feet without my glasses
) could supply us with meat for the whole year. And to head off you vegetarians, you couldn't pick up tofu and soy milk at the grocery where I lived back then. (not that we could have afforded it anyway:D )). I've done a small amount of hunting back when I lived in Northern Michigan, but have gone vegetarian since. There's nothing wrong with good, honest hunting. In fact, in the U.S., with most of the major predators having been wiped out, deer hunting is a vital part of curbing the rampant overpopulation of some wild game. Even those who think its cruel should recognise the importance of hunting in modern times. As an aside, tofu sucks.I'm mostly carnivore, but I like my green veggies too.
No way in hell I'm going to hang you for shooting one of a few animals I like the meat off of the most. In fact you need to share some of that deer meat there man or there will be a hanging.
:D
Been awhile since we had a hanging over someone that couldn't recite the PP verbatim.
/me gets his noose ready
Mach, get ready to reel them in. ;)
Now you've gone and ruined the surprise.
Anyway as DM I sometimes declare certain situations to be coup de grace situations. Like "the gun at your head" situations, where escape is impossible. This also helps a lot to keep the players in line.
Anyway as DM I sometimes declare certain situations to be coup de grace situations. Like "the gun at your head" situations, where escape is impossible. This also helps a lot to keep the players in line.
My first DM who introduced me to D&D (via Palladium) used alot of situations like that. Players would gripe and complain about it and try and cite rules that said otherwise, but in the end, if your tied up and kobold chieftan chucks a spear through your eye cause you've got a smart mouth, there's not too many logical angles that you can use to get your precious PC out of the deadbook. The rules, based on subjectiveness and intangible concepts, don't really allow for much logic, but letting logic trump any mechanical rules never hurts.
If nothing, extreme point blank shots from crossbows and arrows should be severely incapacitating (crossbows would probably knock you on your rear, even if it didn't kill you).
Originally posted by Draggah
As the son of an avid deer hunter I'd like to say that the scenario of the commoner shooting several deer in a row that run off is entirely realistic. Even with modern compound bows made of composite materials and razor tipped broadhead arrows, most deer will run for hundreds and hundreds of yards even after being fatally wounded. Even with high caliber gunshot woulds (30/6) a large number of deer wil run for fifty to sixty yards before finally falling. I have been pulled out of bed many a chilly morning to help follow a blood trail through brambles and swamps!!
Probably need to add some sort of bleed mechanic to the vitality/wound system when it comes to missile weapons then.
Not sure how to go about this yet, so I will get back to it.
Something like a point per round per missile hit, or representative of how many hit points you lost due to the missile shot, or something similar.
Not really sure yet, but I am open for suggetions.
Probably need to add some sort of bleed mechanic to the vitality/wound system when it comes to missile weapons then.
I wouldn't know how to go about it with a wound/vitality system, but if a realistic approach I tried before with hit points was -1 hp per round per hit (from anything, swords, arrows). You could take one round to staunch up to 2 wounds during combat, or 4 with some kind of non weapon proficiency (forget which one), or two rounds outside of combat to staunch all your wounds. A cure spell had to stop the bleeding wounds before it could actually heal any hit points. Also, for every 20 wounds taken during combat that were not healed via magic you took a -1 penalty on some charisma based stuff.
Not sure how that would translate into the vitality system though.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I wouldn't know how to go about it with a wound/vitality system, but if a realistic approach I tried before with hit points was -1 hp per round per hit (from anything, swords, arrows). You could take one round to staunch up to 2 wounds during combat, or 4 with some kind of non weapon proficiency (forget which one), or two rounds outside of combat to staunch all your wounds. A cure spell had to stop the bleeding wounds before it could actually heal any hit points. Also, for every 20 wounds taken during combat that were not healed via magic you took a -1 penalty on some charisma based stuff.
Not sure how that would translate into the vitality system though.
Hmmmm, I like where this is going.
Probably would take the -1 etc off the vitality end and not the wound end, might be too evil if you take it off the wound end.
/me ponders
Anyway, I'm not so great with rules, unless you count scavenging from various sources. However, it looks like you guys are onto something. Bleeding rules would fit right in to DS as far as I'm concerned (If the record keeping isn't too much).
Gotta go, if I stay in one place for too long the PETA ninjas start to catch up!!
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Nyt, be careful, the wounding weapon property will lost its value, if you include these bleeding rules into the system...
Just increase the effectiveness of a wounding weapon - make a "wounding" weapon always inflict wounds, and stack with the wounding damage of this "bleeding" critical-style presented above. And in a wound/vitality setup, make any magical enhancement to critical convert the bleeding damag to wounds instead of increasing the threat range... I really need to get my books out to be more specific on this....
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Just increase the effectiveness of a wounding weapon - make a "wounding" weapon always inflict wounds, and stack with the wounding damage of this "bleeding" critical-style presented above.
Wow, read my mind, thought about doing this before I was even pondering the bleed mechanic.
And in a wound/vitality setup, make any magical enhancement to critical convert the bleeding damag to wounds instead of increasing the threat range... I really need to get my books out to be more specific on this....
I get what you're saying and was pondering this too.
GMTA.