My take on this
PALADINS
Paladins are *NOT NOT* always Western style "knights in shining armour. Ugh, that stereotype drives me bats.
The whole ethos of a paladin is *NOT* to be a knight in shining armour, but a person deeply devoted to Lawful Good as an ideal and ethos, usually personified by a diety or holy code of honour.
--There have been "paladin" type folk in many cultures, Susano, Cuchulainn and Theseus for example, so the stereotypical "knight in shining armour " is not a straight jacket.
--In many cultures the idea of going a round in heavy armour is ridiculous or impractical, or even impossible. Armour does NOT = a paladin.
--What distinguishes a paladin is NOT his/her Charisma, they usually have high Chrisma and Wisdom because of their deep, sincere beliefs and piety. Paladins are not hot-headed, bigoted zealots.
--Unlike a cleric, a paladin does not always revere a diety, and if they do, that diety have better hold up to the "true code of honour", because paladins are one of the few beings who will argue with a deity!
--"My honour is my life", paraphrased form the knights of Solamnia on Krynn, this is at the centre of paladinhood. Unlike "knightly" honour, pride is a *sin* for a paladin and is to be regarded with great wariness. Pride leads to arrogance, contempt etc. Honour is wrapped up in morality and beliefs, and is not easily expressed, though usually the basic tenents can be.
--Paladins do not undertake heroic deeds to achieve fame, but because *they have to be done*. Paladins never ever "pass the buck". The only time such would occur is when another task/duty must be accomplished first. It's this absolute die-hard adherence to standing up and doing what is right, regardless of consequnces, that sets paladins apart.
--The "war horse" ability for paladins should actually have different forms, depending on the culture and ethos of the paladin. They maybe able to ask an angelic being for council or aid, or to call upon a couatl every so often, etc. These powers are "divine graces", and shoudlnt merely be the same old same old "war horse for a knight in a rmour".
Now, in Athas, a world where evil and destruction have triumphed, or merely that the world has fallen to ruin (depending on your campaign), paladins do not sit in well at all. Folk of justly honour can't sit by and let folk be enslaved, abused etc. Paladins do not face up to evil doers because of pride or stupidity, but true honour. Now, they are not stupid, caution is not cowardice nor unwise, but they couldn't easily tolerate having to operate in secret, they would share what food and water they have...so a paladin living under a Sorceror-King's rule would chaff badly, and it's very likely that sooner or later, even though the paladin knew it would be certian death. Thus they'd come to the notice of the Sorceror Kings sooner or later, and thus their deaths.
Over the millenia , the Sorceror Kings would have wiped out paladins, a rare breed anway, with ruthless finality, and many other folk from evil reasons or blind survival instincts.
In a world where most folk merely try to survive, the idea of unselfish honour and compassion are, well, a dream. This shouldn't mean paladins are "impossible" on Athas, merely incredibly rare.
When roleplayed well, the actual nature of a paladin means that typical Athasian PC parties or the NPCs woudl make survival as a paladin a troublesome thing.
For example, if a paladin happens upon a slave being beaten by a tmeplar, his moral beliefs make it very VERY hard for him not to interfere, because to let the abuse happens means aquiescing to evil. To a paladin the saying "For evil to flourish, all it requires is for good men to stay silent", is a real, terrible warning. Being cautious and wise, preventing evil deeds with guile is permitted, when the foes power is over whelming.
But if the paladin does nothing..such things wear at them like acid, too often and they lose their powers from sheer despair and the like.
For example, a paladin works with the Veiled Alliance in a city dominated by a sorceror king, the paladin knows he cannot just call out the Sorceror King, because he'd be eliminated for no effect. Risking his life with a CHANCE is fine, but to throw it away pointlessly is a waste. However, he sees a templar abusing a poor family to extort wealth..assaulting the templar openly could cause death for the family even IF he suceeds (as "collaborators")...planting evidence to have others blamed for killing the templar is also wrong...thus such things become a real exercise in morality, patience and will power.
On Athas, someone acting like that would be thought of as mad, NOT heroic, by the vast majority. So, even foes of tyranny and the sorceror kings are highly likely to regard a paladin as a danegrous lunatic.
Another point is that paladins maybe born with their beliefs, but others come to them from experience, seeing noble heroism, reading tales of folk of just glory...but in AThas, the chances to learn of heroies of the past is slim at best.
In conclusion, I do not think Paladins should be "banned" form Athas, merely the DM should force players to accept they are incredibly rare, and they *MUST* roleplay them accordingly, and that will earn them the emnity of allies as well as enemies!
and on the same note, I think that the Holy liberator is the perfect paladin replacement, being much more common because hsi philosophy allows for secrecy.
--"My honour is my life", paraphrased form the knights of Solamnia on Krynn, this is at the centre of paladinhood.
Actually, this brings up something. On Krynn, there are two main groups that value honor, but in very different ways. The Knight's of Solamnia value what is considered High Honor, while the minotaurs of Krynn value what can be called Pragmatic Honor. An example taken from the short story 'Definitions of Honor' by Richard Knaak (in the short story collection Kender, Gully Dwarves, and Gnomes) during a conversation between a knight and a minotaur:
'The man beast [minotaur] studied his own hands. "Would you run a man though from the back. A man who did not even know there was a hint of danger?"
Tobin [the knight] gasped. "A minotaur may slay a man in such a way, but a Knight of Solamnia would never do such a deed. I would challenge him!"
"Indeed? What if you knew the man could easily outfight you? What if you knew that, if he survived, he would cause the deaths of many?" The minotaur's eyes now bore deep into the knight's. "I ask again, are honor and pride such good things? Must we always do 'the right thing'?" '
The first ideal of honor, that of High Honor, has no place on Athas. Such idealism would certainly lead to the so called paladin's death and a right quick one at that. The second however, Pragmatic Honor, has a place, albeit a small one. Hence, aspects akin to 'My Honor is My Life' can easily be translated into the Athasian equivalent 'My pride means so much to me that my life will be over before it begins.'
Paladins do not undertake heroic deeds to achieve fame, but because *they have to be done*.
But then, put it to the test of which is more important, maintaining a sense of honor, or accomplishing that which needs to be done. Oftentimes, honor can get in the way of the goal in mind. Any kind of code should not be a crutch, but something that empowers (in the emotional sense of the word) the individual.
Originally posted by Silverblade the Enchanter
For example, a paladin works with the Veiled Alliance in a city dominated by a sorceror king, the paladin knows he cannot just call out the Sorceror King, because he'd be eliminated for no effect. Risking his life with a CHANCE is fine, but to throw it away pointlessly is a waste. However, he sees a templar abusing a poor family to extort wealth..assaulting the templar openly could cause death for the family even IF he suceeds (as "collaborators")...planting evidence to have others blamed for killing the templar is also wrong...thus such things become a real exercise in morality, patience and will power.
Not all paladins are obsessed with smiting evil, some seek to heal the wounds that evil causes (such as the Paladins that serve Ilmater from FR). A paladin faced with such a dilemma may allow the templar to extort the wealth from the family and once the templar left, he could replace the wealth that was taken.
nik
Here's the issue though, and this applies to the exalted as well as the viled stuff, if one were to allow it:
Who or what grants this power, no matter what level we are speaking of here, paladins, vile, or exalted.
This brought me back to 2nd ed and the Priest Handbook, and the only thing useful from that book, in that they had three unique things a cleric/paladin/etc could worship and gain power from, one of which may or may not apply to Athas as much, but here they are.
Divinity of Man
Essence of Good (can't remember the real name)
Essence of Evil (can't remember the real name)
Divinity of Man was the belief if man becoming one with god or becoming his own god, or something similar.
The other two are the belief and worshipping of either one, whether it's good or evil.
So, in essence paladins could gain their power from worshipping the essence of good.
Not sure how well this plays into all the other religions of Athas, something I've been trying to research more on and understand. For the most part it seems like it's more spiritiuality/native american based than anything else.
I could be wrong though.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
So, in essence paladins could gain their power from worshipping the essence of good.
Not sure how well this plays into all the other religions of Athas, something I've been trying to research more on and understand. For the most part it seems like it's more spiritiuality/native american based than anything else.
I could be wrong though.
Thoughts? [/b]
The underlying problem here is defining what the essence of good is on Athas. Since the world has no black and white good and evil only shades of grey the true calling of the standard PHB paladin is lost. How can there be an ultimate champion of good when there is no ultimate evil? I mean alignments (i.e., good and evil) are subjective in the setting whereas they are much more clearly defined in other settings.
A paladin-like class could be done, but it would have to have a lot of that absolute alignment issue reworked, hence it wouldn't be a PHB paladin. My 2 cps.
Originally posted by irdeggman
The underlying problem here is defining what the essence of good is on Athas. Since the world has no black and white good and evil only shades of grey the true calling of the standard PHB paladin is lost. How can there be an ultimate champion of good when there is no ultimate evil? I mean alignments (i.e., good and evil) are subjective in the setting whereas they are much more clearly defined in other settings.
Agreed. It will be difficult.
A paladin-like class could be done, but it would have to have a lot of that absolute alignment issue reworked, hence it wouldn't be a PHB paladin. My 2 cps.
Probably the only way it's going to work.
I'm finding myself interested in this discussion about possible Athasian paladins. I've just had an idea that would allow for PHB style paladins (without metal armor though, of course) but remain true to the setting though. Now, paladins were originally (in real life folklore) the noble knights of Charlamange right? Sort of like Arthur's knights. Yeah, but how does this apply to Dark Sun you might ask? What about Oronis, the avangion ruler of Kurn? He could empower paladins much the way the dragon kings empower templars. They could be his warriors dedicated to the defense of Kurn and the salvation of Athas as a whole. I think it could work. Something for everyone to toss around for awhile anyway.
The could form clandestine cells dedicated to overthrowing the dragon kings and destroying defilers in general. The Solamnics resorted to such tactics in the Dragon Lance fith age.
My idea of Oronis is a bit different too. Yeah he's good, but with all the secrets going around and him trying to stabalize Kurn with New Kurn and trying not to be detected I can't see him having followers that are paladin like, he's not quite that vocal yet about how good he really is IMO.
He might have LG followers sure, but none on the scale of a paladin.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
mjspawn Its not like his character goes around announcing he is a paladin to the other city-states. Anyone watching the group would believe him to be either a ranger or just a fighter with a powerful mount. He wears hide armor, and rarely uses his smite ability and other powers, as he is aware what the agents of the other sorcerer-kings would do to him.
Doesn't sond like a paladin to me. A paladin wouldn't let all the injustices and oppression that goes on in most city-states with out making a scene. Hence why he would be dealt with quickly and harshly.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
PALADINS
Paladins are *NOT NOT* always Western style "knights in shining armour. Ugh, that stereotype drives me bats.
Agreed. However the D&D Paladin actually is, at least, the way it is defined in the PHB. They are pretty darned close to the steriotype, even when they try not to be.
The whole ethos of a paladin is *NOT* to be a knight in shining armour, but a person deeply devoted to Lawful Good as an ideal and ethos, usually personified by a diety or holy code of honour.
True.
--There have been "paladin" type folk in many cultures, Susano, Cuchulainn and Theseus for example, so the stereotypical "knight in shining armour " is not a straight jacket.
Not familiar with the names, but I think I got your point there. This is why I would tend to think that a Athasian Paladin would more closely resemble a Samaurai (sic) - taking the ideal of personal honor and placing it first and foremost in their lives.
However, the PHB Paladin, in flavor and mechanics, is not designed this way.
--In many cultures the idea of going a round in heavy armour is ridiculous or impractical, or even impossible. Armour does NOT = a paladin.
True, but that is expected through the PHB Paladin. In order to compete with other classess effectively, the Paladin needs the Armor and Equipment.
--What distinguishes a paladin is NOT his/her Charisma, they usually have high Chrisma and Wisdom because of their deep, sincere beliefs and piety. Paladins are not hot-headed, bigoted zealots.
Well, Ability-wise, Charisma and Wisdom do tend to be rather popular with Paladins. They frequently are quite charismatic and outgoing, what with their defending the helpless and whatnot.
--Unlike a cleric, a paladin does not always revere a diety, and if they do, that diety have better hold up to the "true code of honour", because paladins are one of the few beings who will argue with a deity!
Actually, the cleric doesn't need to revere a deity in the PHB. They can revere the idea of divinity instead, IIRC (my books are packed up right this moment). The problem with a PHB Paladin in Athas when it comes to this is defining exactly *where* they get their power? Wizards get it from plants, Clerics from the elemental planes, Druids from Spirits of the Land, Rangers from lesser spirits (if you use the "vanilla" DS3 rules from athas.org), and Templars from their Sorcerer-Kings. So, every other spellcasting class on Athas has clearly-defined, and recognizable or physical sources for their power. The Paladin doesn't have a physical source defined.
--"My honour is my life", paraphrased form the knights of Solamnia on Krynn, this is at the centre of paladinhood. Unlike "knightly" honour, pride is a *sin* for a paladin and is to be regarded with great wariness. Pride leads to arrogance, contempt etc. Honour is wrapped up in morality and beliefs, and is not easily expressed, though usually the basic tenents can be.
Well, Krynn is a interesting place to look for this. First off, the Knights of Solomnia aren't Paladins (as in the class). But regardless, there are three different knightly orders in that setting - the Knights of Solomnia, the Knights of Neraka and the Legion of Steel. Plus there are the Minotaur nations. Each has it's own idea as to what honor means - and who's to say one is right while the other is wrong?
--Paladins do not undertake heroic deeds to achieve fame, but because *they have to be done*. Paladins never ever "pass the buck". The only time such would occur is when another task/duty must be accomplished first. It's this absolute die-hard adherence to standing up and doing what is right, regardless of consequnces, that sets paladins apart.
Well, they tend to be heroic, yes. On Athas, you can get killed for less.
--The "war horse" ability for paladins should actually have different forms, depending on the culture and ethos of the paladin. They maybe able to ask an angelic being for council or aid, or to call upon a couatl every so often, etc. These powers are "divine graces", and shoudlnt merely be the same old same old "war horse for a knight in armour".
Once again, where would these "angelic beings" or "couatls" come from in the Dark sun setting? Athas tends to be rather shut-off from everything else, with a few exceptions.
Now, in Athas, a world where evil and destruction have triumphed, or merely that the world has fallen to ruin (depending on your campaign), paladins do not sit in well at all. Folk of justly honour can't sit by and let folk be enslaved, abused etc. Paladins do not face up to evil doers because of pride or stupidity, but true honour. Now, they are not stupid, caution is not cowardice nor unwise, but they couldn't easily tolerate having to operate in secret, they would share what food and water they have...so a paladin living under a Sorceror-King's rule would chaff badly, and it's very likely that sooner or later, even though the paladin knew it would be certian death. Thus they'd come to the notice of the Sorceror Kings sooner or later, and thus their deaths.
Which is all very good reasons that a Paladin shouldn't be a base class. I could see something like what you're describing more as a Prestige Class.
Over the millenia , the Sorceror Kings would have wiped out paladins, a rare breed anway, with ruthless finality, and many other folk from evil reasons or blind survival instincts.
In a world where most folk merely try to survive, the idea of unselfish honour and compassion are, well, a dream. This shouldn't mean paladins are "impossible" on Athas, merely incredibly rare.
And the fact you'd have to totally build the Class from scratch doies limit most DM's from even wanting to tackle it.
When roleplayed well, the actual nature of a paladin means that typical Athasian PC parties or the NPCs woudl make survival as a paladin a troublesome thing.
Very true.
For example, if a paladin happens upon a slave being beaten by a tmeplar, his moral beliefs make it very VERY hard for him not to interfere, because to let the abuse happens means aquiescing to evil. To a paladin the saying "For evil to flourish, all it requires is for good men to stay silent", is a real, terrible warning. Being cautious and wise, preventing evil deeds with guile is permitted, when the foes power is over whelming.
In other words, occasionally bending the law in order to do the right thing, and taking a more Neutral Good perspective on things, as opposed to a Lawful Good one. Yet another part of the class that would need to be adjusted/changed, luickily, from a gamesystem perspective, it's one of the easiest.
But if the paladin does nothing..such things wear at them like acid, too often and they lose their powers from sheer despair and the like.
Once you figure out where they get these powers from.... A tangible source would need to be defined, to keep with the premise already started for Athasian Magic.
For example, a paladin works with the Veiled Alliance in a city dominated by a sorceror king, the paladin knows he cannot just call out the Sorceror King, because he'd be eliminated for no effect. Risking his life with a CHANCE is fine, but to throw it away pointlessly is a waste. However, he sees a templar abusing a poor family to extort wealth..assaulting the templar openly could cause death for the family even IF he suceeds (as "collaborators")...planting evidence to have others blamed for killing the templar is also wrong...thus such things become a real exercise in morality, patience and will power.[/b]
Then again, the Templarates are "the law" of the cities, as are the Sorcerer-Kings. Would it be wrong of the Paladin to interfere with the law of the land, and help invite chaos in it's place? Once again, another push to release or change the alignment restrictions as presented for the Paladin.
On Athas, someone acting like that would be thought of as mad, NOT heroic, by the vast majority. So, even foes of tyranny and the sorceror kings are highly likely to regard a paladin as a danegrous lunatic.
Very true.
Another point is that paladins maybe born with their beliefs, but others come to them from experience, seeing noble heroism, reading tales of folk of just glory...but in AThas, the chances to learn of heroies of the past is slim at best.
True - which does make the idea of a Prestige Class ever more useful, and possibly with some special restriction placed on the requirements.
In conclusion, I do not think Paladins should be "banned" form Athas, merely the DM should force players to accept they are incredibly rare, and they *MUST* roleplay them accordingly, and that will earn them the emnity of allies as well as enemies!
Well, the PHB Paladin, as written, shouldn't exist oin Athas - period. Heavy reqorking of the class would need to be done to fit Athas better, the least of which is alignment restrictions, their powers, and any connection to divinity in any form would need to be reviewed. Adjusting the class for balancing due to equipment issues would also need to be looked at more. Basically, the class needs to be reworked from the ground up. However, I'd agree - it would be fun to have something in its' place for players to choose from.
Use the spelless Paladin variant from Complete Warrior.
Turn it into a PrC.
Kill the Lawful alignment stuff and either use Neutral or Chaotic, basing most of the class off the Holy Liberator is a good start IMO.
Find a way to define where the "paladin" gets his abilities from, which will probably be the hardest part of the whole equation IMO.
For one it can't be from the elements, they simply are too neutral and don't care enough.
The SMs, with the exception of Oronis, would rather kill something like this than to grant it powers, besides, they have their templars already.
Nature is another bad source to base it off of, it's just too neutral, and nothing about the "paladin" is nature based.
So where does it get it's abilities from?
I would say base it off something similar to Divinity of Man from the 2nd ed. Priest Handbook, it's about the only thing I know of that's close to fitting, and even that is going to need some adjustments.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
So where does it get it's abilities from?
Any thought about having their powers come from Sadira somehow? She seems the most obvious person to put together such a group. Maybe she found a way to empower warriors with the power of the sun, and maybe certain abilities can only be used during the day (no idea how this would affect balance...it might not even be possible to properly balance it in 3e and therefore not doable rules-wise).
Just tossing an idea out there
That's really not doable and she's not tied to the elemental planes like the SMs are or have any other way of granting powers to others.
Besides, Sadira is far from being Neutral good, or any sort of level that a "paladin"-like person would be following. I'd in fact say she is more of a chaotic good on the brink of some level of evil, if one were to go by normal D&d alignment rules.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
The short and long answer would be NO, heh.
That's really not doable and she's not tied to the elemental planes like the SMs are or have any other way of granting powers to others.
Besides, Sadira is far from being Neutral good, or any sort of level that a "paladin"-like person would be following. I'd in fact say she is more of a chaotic good on the brink of some level of evil, if one were to go by normal D&d alignment rules.
I think the 2nd Ed material has her at CN, which I'd agree with. She's definitely not good, as she's the type of person who believes that the end justifies the means "I just defiled a huge swath of land, but it's not bad, I was in danger!".
She's definately not a nice person is all I'm getting at.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
The short and long answer would be NO, heh.
That's really not doable and she's not tied to the elemental planes like the SMs are or have any other way of granting powers to others.
Besides, Sadira is far from being Neutral good, or any sort of level that a "paladin"-like person would be following. I'd in fact say she is more of a chaotic good on the brink of some level of evil, if one were to go by normal D&d alignment rules.
Ok, works for me. Just seemed that she was the only one with a source of power that could be tapped into to create paladins, which is why I brought it up
All I have to go on her is Beyond the Prism Pentium 
/me shrugs