??? to have a third coming? In light of the mass destruction he is capable of and of his possession of the Last Word, should he be allowed to come back a third time at Demi-God like power (or greater) or should he be heavily restricted to that of a greater Balor; or should he be forced to ascend from the very bottow of the Abyssal hierarchy as a larva? I'd be interested in not only hearing the answer to the initial question but some supporting arguements on why you think he should/shouldn't be allowed that opportunity.
IMC, his presence is still felt but his manifestation has not yet been witnessed. I have a lesser demon operating as a shaman to a tribe of ogres who have led them to believe that he will rise and reward them all for their service in assisting in his resurection.
I'm torn from letting the shaman prove to be a phony or to actually have a viable claim to his ramblings.
1. He doesn't posses the Last Word anymore. I can't remember the exact details, but I believe the power of the Word lessened the more he used it. Not to mention the fact that the power of the Last Word was slowly consuming him. I think that's why Orcus/Tenebrous was so desperate to get his wand back. The Last Word was inevitably going to fizzle out from too much usage or destroy him for possessing it for too long. Once he got the wand back, he became his original self again.
2. He isn't as stupid or complacent as he once was. In 2e, Orcus was fat and lazy and spent most of his time eating larvae on his Abyssal layer. So, in comes Kiriansalee (I'm sure that spelling's off)
and takes over the layer. Now, Orcus comes back. What does this have to do with godhood? Plenty. In D&D, powers need the belief of their followers to keep themselves alive. Should they lose their followers' faith, they slip into the Astral. So, it would be in Orcus's best interests to simply stay an Abyssal lord and not ascend to godhood. Sure, it limits his power, but not by much, and he doesn't have to worry about dying from a lack of faith.
Hope this helps.
Orcus rules again from his throne of bones in Thanatos, and Kiaransalee has fled to the Demonweb Pits. She has named her portion of the Web Thanatos, which goes to show that denial is also a river in the Abyss.
If Orcus is not divine, it is likely he has recruited a great number of followers able to help him kick out the demigoddess. Or perhaps he managed the trick on the strength of bluff alone. I can imagine him showing up at Kiaransalee's court with a group of visages, supposedly to do homage to the Queen of Banshees. Suddenly, Orcus throws his cloak off and reveals his true face. Then he dumps the severed heads of Maanzekorian and Primus on her lap.
At that moment I would certainly flee, demigoddess or no.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
If Orcus is not divine, it is likely he has recruited a great number of followers able to help him kick out the demigoddess. Or perhaps he managed the trick on the strength of bluff alone. I can imagine him showing up at Kiaransalee's court with a group of visages, supposedly to do homage to the Queen of Banshees. Suddenly, Orcus throws his cloak off and reveals his true face. Then he dumps the severed heads of Maanzekorian and Primus on her lap.
At that moment I would certainly flee, demigoddess or no. [/b]
Yikes. Now THAT'S a vivid mental image. Nothing says "an offer you can't refuse" like showing up with the heads of dead gods.
(Coincidentally, it's Maanzecorian with a C, but in your case, I'm just going to assume that the slaadi made you write it.
The only reason I even bother is that I've been taking a particular interest in the little illithid exdiety as of late)
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
I can imagine him showing up at Kiaransalee's court with a group of visages, supposedly to do homage to the Queen of Banshees. Suddenly, Orcus throws his cloak off and reveals his true face. Then he dumps the severed heads of Maanzekorian and Primus on her lap.
At that moment I would certainly flee, demigoddess or no.
Oh that's a sweet image there. *grin*
And I've been pondering the fallout of Maanzicorian's demise lately as well, though it's only a bit of side ponderings for a character in a one-shot I'm gonna run soon. Not related to the main plot, but it's been interesting nonetheless.
Yeah, I'd flee at that too if I was the revenencer.
Originally posted by Choleric Psion
Call me a burk, but what's the Last Word anyways? Sounds powerful...sound like something I'd like to get me hands on...
The Last Word was something that Orcus discovered during his period as Tenebrous in the white sand wastes of Pelion on Arborea's 3rd layer. The entire area is a wasteland and dotted with the barest remains of ruins that predate the arrival and vanishing of most of the Egyptian pantheon on that plane.
Suffice to say, Tenebrous found a single tower intact on the plane and entered it. He slaughtered the two guardians (who appeared as ageless humans IIRC) and took the knowledge of a single word inscribed on the interior of the tower's walls. There were many many other words, but he took one of them and destroyed the tower. Nothing of it and its contents remains.
The tower there, and the rest of the ruins in Mithardir/Pelion are the remnants of a race referred to sometimes as a 'race of titans' though literally nothing else is known about them. Personally I'd make a connection between them and the ruins in the depths of Pandemonium, but thats just me.
Whoever they were, they left something behind with the power to obliterate a deity. And Tenebrous used it to gather information about his hidden wand, hoping to regain it and restore himself to life and godhood again. However The Last Word was far too powerful for his undead, quasi-divine form, monstrously too powerful. It began to devour him, gnawing at his mind and his essence like a ravenous thing that he should not have claimed as his own.
In the module 'Dead Gods' The Last Word can be found by the PCs, though if they so much as glance at it, it hurts them. If they continue it does damage, continue more and it destroys them utterly. Whoever made it, and whatever it was made for originally, it was never meant to be known or wielded by anything less than a true deity.
After Tenebrous was destroyed by The Last Word, knowledge of it slipped from his mind, never to be found again. Unless of course its original makers yet live or have left other such relics of their power behind.
"Orc...errr, Fatty didn't kill both of the guardians of the Last Word, he only killed the one that looked and acted like an elf, leaving the dwarf-esque one alive...forever...alone, and he wouldn't let the PCs help or comfort him. It certainly helps to a) show the players that they can't solve every problem and b) give them a renewed drive to kill Teneb...Fatty. Not that they'd need much of a push."
*goes back to plotting the death of Demogo...Captain Double-Stupid-Heads...*
"Indeed most excellent Lord of the Abyss, I was simply reaffirming my ideas that you're the most informed lord of chaos and evil. My deepest apologies if it seemed that my intentions were otherwise."
*much bowing and humbleness on the part of the normally self absorbed and loquacious 'loth*
Orcus
By Tebryn14
Demon Prince of the Undead; the Lost Power of the Undead; Tenebrous.
Lesser Deity
Symbol: A skull-tipped wand (the Wand of Orcus)
Home Plane: Abyss/113th (Thanatos)/Naratyr
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Portfolio: Undeath, the undead
Worshippers: Cultists, death worshippers, undead
Cleric Alignments: CE, NE
Domains: Chaos, Death, Evil, Undeath
Favored Weapon: The Wand of Orcus (great club)
Recently resurrected by the Skull-King, his last faithful cleric, Orcus is once again a force to be reckoned with. After having his worship in the Cold Lands (and Wand) shattered by King Dragonsbane, Bahamut, and Ilmater, he was deposed and killed by Kiaransalee. He then manifested as a power of undeath, calling himself Tenebrous. Wielding an ancient and powerful artifact called the Last Word, he slew several deities, including the illithid power Maanzicorian. But now Orcus is once again living (mostly). Having revitalized his Wand, he has forced Kiaransalee to flee Naratyr, and has again risen to lesser deity status. He has resumed his wars with Demogorgon and Graz’zt, and is once again a power player of the Abyss.
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar’ri)
Divine Rank: 6
[b]Hit Dice[/b: 43d8+516 (860 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 80 ft., fly 240 ft. (perfect)
AC: 58 (+8 dex, +6 divine, +20 natural, +9 deflection, +6 insight, -1 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +43/+62
Attacks: The Wand of Orcus (+6 unholy chaotic great club) +69/+64/+59/+54 melee and claw +59 melee, and horn +59 melee, and sting +59 melee; or by spell +64 melee touch, or +57 ranged touch.
Damage: The Wand of Orcus (+6 unholy chaotic great club) 1d10+21+death (see below); claw 1d8+7; horn 2d6+7; sting 1d6+7+poison; or by spell.
Face/Reach: 15 ft by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Domain powers, spell-like abilities, poison, spells, rebuke or control undead (as 35th level cleric) 16/day; summon tanar’ri, summon undead.
Special Qualities: Divine aura (600 ft., DC 25), divine immunities, DR 20/epic, fast healing 4, fire resistance 11, godly realm (1 mile, Naratyr/Thanatos), plane shift at will, remote communication 6 miles, SR 38, greater teleport at will, understand, speak, and read all languages and speak directly to all beings within 6 miles, undead qualities, life drain.
Saves: Fort +41, Ref +37, Will +38.
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 26, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 28.
Skills: Balance +22, Bluff +55, Climb +51, Concentration +63, Craft (Alchemy) +50, Diplomacy +45, Escape Artist +34, Gather Information +35, Hide +34, Intimidate +60, Jump +51, Knowledge (Arcana) +60, Knowledge (Abyssal Politics) +55, Knowledge (Planes) +55, Knowledge (Religion) +60, Listen +57, Move Silently +34, Search +41, Sense Motive +50, Spellcraft +60, Spot +57, Survival +35, Use Magic Device +30.
Feats: Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Dark Speech, Dodge, Extra Turning, Maximize Spell, Mobility, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (Necromancy), Spring Attack, Vile Spell.
Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment.
Domain Powers: Cast chaotic spells at +1 caster level; death touch 6/day; cast evil spells at +1 caster level; free Extra Turning feat.
Spell-like abilities (divine): Orcus uses these abilities as a 16th level caster, except for chaotic and evil spells, which he uses as a 17th level caster. The save DCs are 25+spell level, except for Necromancy spells, for which the save DCs are 27+spell level. Protection from Law, Shatter, Magic Circle against Law, Chaos Hammer, Dispel Law, Animate Objects, Word of Chaos, Cloak of Chaos, Summon Monster IV, Cause Fear, Death Knell, Animate Dead, Death Ward, Slay Living, Create Undead, Destruction, Create Greater Undead, Wail of the Banshee, Protection from Good, Desecrate, Magic Circle against Good, Unholy Blight, Dispel Good, Blasphemy, Unholy Aura, Detect Undead, Circle of Doom, Control Undead, Energy Drain.
Spell-like abilities (tanar’ri): Orcus uses these abilities as a 43rd level caster, except for chaotic and evil spells, which he uses as a 44th level caster. The save DCs are 19+spell level, except for Necromancy spells, for which the save DCs are 21+spell level. At Will-Darkness, Abyssal Might, Astral Projection, Sympathy, Enervation, Halt Undead, Vampiric Touch, Chill Touch, Control Undead, Soul Bind, Telekinesis, Greater Teleport, Lightning Bolt, Fear, Wall of Fire, Stop Heart, Detect Law, Detect Good. 3/day-Gate, Finger of Death, Energy Drain, General of Undeath, Trap the Soul.[/i]
Poison (Ex): Sting-initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Str. Fort save DC 43.
Life Drain (Su): As the Life Drain salient divine ability, 60 ft. spread; DC 25.
Spells: Orcus casts spells as a 28th level wizard specialized in the school of Necromancy.
Prohibited school-Illusion. Spells/day: 4/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5; base save DC=19+spell level.
Control or Rebuke Undead (Su): Orcus can control or rebuke undead as a 35th level cleric 16/day.
Summon Undead (Sp): At will, Orcus can summon 5d6 wights, 3d6 wrights, 1d8 bodaks, or 1d2 nightwing.
Summon Tanar’ri (Sp): 10/day, Orcus can automatically summon 1d6 vrocks, 1d3 glabrezu, or 1 nalfeshnee. Additionally, 5/day, he can attempt to summon either 1 balor (75%), or 1 kelvezu (85%).
Undead Qualities (Su): As the Undead Qualities salient divine ability.
Possessions: Orcus carries the Wand of Orcus, which functions as a +6 chaotic unholy great club. Anyone struck by it in combat or touching it directly against Orcus’ will must succeed at a Fort Save (DC 25) or die immediately. It also doubles the maximum HD of undead that the wielder is able to control.
Caster Level: 25th
Other Divine Powers
As a lesser deity, Orcus may take 10 on any check. He treats a roll of 1 on a saving throw or attack roll normally and not as an automatic failure. He is immortal.
Senses: Orcus can see, hear, smell, and touch at a distance of 6 miles. As a standard action, he can perceive anything within 6 miles of his worshippers, holy sites, objects, or any location where one of his titles or name was spoken within the last hour. He can extend his senses to up to 5 locations at once. He can block the sensing power of deities his rank and lower at up to 2 locations at once for up to 6 hours.
Portfolio Sense: Orcus senses any creation of undead as long as it involves or affects at least 500 people.
Automatic Actions: Orcus can use Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft as a free action as long as the DC for the task is 20 or lower. He can perform up to 5 such free actions each round.
Create Magic Items: Orcus can create any magic item that aids in the creation and/or control of undead creatures, or that makes use of a death effect, as long as the market price does not exceed 30,000 gp.
turns to the lovely and gracious arcanaloth
"Apology accepted, my dead Marauder. By the way, did you get that shipment of cheese-stuffed halflings I sent you?"
Originally posted by Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
turns to the lovely and gracious arcanaloth
"Apology accepted, my dead Marauder. By the way, did you get that shipment of cheese-stuffed halflings I sent you?"
Okay.... (laughing) Graz'zt, that has to be the most inadvertantly funny typo I've seen in quite some time. At least, I'm going to assume it was a typo.
Of course, if you wanna get something done by a real blood, go ahead and ask this here blue hair barbed tiefling! Not much jink is needed, just some little motivation. And correction, I work for alot of gold most cutters can't afford.
Only two jobs I'll never take, slaying powers *not exactly the smartest thing to attempt* and attempting to marry a drow princess. NO REALLY! I actually got suckered into a position where in order to live I had to go through a ceremony to marry this one b$!$%@~! *albeit a very tempting and alluring one* and the fact she was hanging all over me didn't help. I KNOW WHAT THOSE WOMEN DO TO THEIR MEN AFTER THE HONEYMOON!"
-Fringe Fartalke, Tiefling planewalker-
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
If Orcus is not divine, it is likely he has recruited a great number of followers able to help him kick out the demigoddess. Or perhaps he managed the trick on the strength of bluff alone. I can imagine him showing up at Kiaransalee's court with a group of visages, supposedly to do homage to the Queen of Banshees. Suddenly, Orcus throws his cloak off and reveals his true face. Then he dumps the severed heads of Maanzekorian and Primus on her lap.
At that moment I would certainly flee, demigoddess or no.
That happened to me once, and I didn't run.
But of course, it wasn't so much Orcus as it was a gnomish restaurant owner.
And it wasn't so much the heads of Primus and Maanzekorian, as it was a turnip and 2 slices of bread.
close It though was. Mighty tasty too.
Originally posted by Choleric Psion
Call me a burk, but what's the Last Word anyways?
Since I am running The Great Modron March/Dead Gods at the moment this question had crossed my mind as well. The word that I thought was most approrpiate was:
J-A-C-R-U-N-T-U
*urgh*
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Yep, it's all from 'Dead Gods', the finest module I've ever seen. *grin*
Better than Faction War?
They're both equally good, in different ways in some respects. 'Squaring the Circle' in Hellbound is almost on that level, but some of my own little bias is involved in that decision. The buildup and complexity of 'Dead Gods' and the sheer beauty of what The Lady does to Darkwood in 'Faction War', ie toying with him as well as the timestream, puts them on top in my mind.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Tenebrous used it to gather information about his hidden wand, hoping to regain it and restore himself to life and godhood again. However The Last Word was far too powerful for his undead, quasi-divine form, monstrously too powerful. It began to devour him, gnawing at his mind and his essence like a ravenous thing that he should not have claimed as his own.
After Tenebrous was destroyed by The Last Word, knowledge of it slipped from his mind, never to be found again. Unless of course its original makers yet live or have left other such relics of their power behind.
Taking that as a basis and adding this quote acquired from :http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/stonekeep/25/demons.html
As you already know if you have read Monster Manual one, that Orcus and Demogorgon are suppose to be the two most powerful demon rulers of the abyss. Monster Manual seems to add to the problem of the relative power of that of Orcus to other demons such as Pazuzues (who could probably beat any demon mentioned in Monster Manual one or Monster Manual two... most of the time). Perhaps what Gary Gygax meant to say was that Orcus and Demogorgon were the two most powerful demons who were contending for the rulership of the abyss. Obviously, since Pazuzu is not contending for planes as Orcus and Demogorgon are, then that may solve the discrepency in the statements made in the first Monster Manual.
Leads me to cast out this question: If, prior to Orcus's initial rise to godhood, he was on a similar competitive field with both Demogorgon and Pazuzu, why (or how) is it that neither one of those rose to godhood as well? It would stand to reason that the extremely high competitive nature of each Demon prince would not allow neither of them to think (or allow) another to gain an upper hand (no matter HOW dramatic).
Ahh, the politics of the Abyss . . .
Pazuzu/Pazrael was near to that level, but didn't have the worshipper base (or the intention) of taking on the mantle of true godhood.
My Grazz't doesn't want to because it would throw him in a whole other league. Sure, he'll play in that league, but when he comes in it, it will be with a Boom. A big Boom.
So for now, Grazz't is working on the network of followers and making allies.
When he'll deem the time has come, he'll allow himself to become a true Power. And not just a demipower or a lesser power, but he intends on making it big as soon as he comes, so nothing short of intermediate status will do.
And things will change, in a lot of ways, and in a lot of worlds.
You'll know fear.
You will tremble upon hearing the name of the Lord!
...But I digress.
If Grazz't isn't a Power yet, it's because he doesn't want to. Heck, even his descendance is worthy of Godhood! (Iuz)
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
And back then Archfiends could indeed grant spells to worshippers, just not to the same level that true deities could. I'd need to check back in 'Hellbound' for the figures, but it was something like granting up to 4th level spells, and 5th level spells if they were present themselves.
Checked for you. Archfiends section of On Hallowed Grounds "The High=up fiends can even greant spell of up to 3rd level (or 4th level if they appear in person to bestow the power)"
And Orcus and Demigorgon weren't the only demon lords to ascend to true godhood. Jubilex and Yeenoghu have as well. I've gotten wind of some vague sources saying that Merrshaulk was a demon lord as well, though I doubt that. I've also heard stories of him being an aspect of some "world serpent" along with Jazirian, Asmodeus, and some unknown chaotic good god, though this seems even mm more out there to me.
Originally posted by Tebryn14
I've also heard stories of him being an aspect of some "world serpent" along with Jazirian, Asmodeus, and some unknown chaotic good god, though this seems even mm more out there to me.
That's from the couatl theologians of Monster Mythology. They don't mention Asmodeus, of course, but they do mention Io and Shekinester as being other variations on the World Serpent archetype.
Merrshaulk was never a demon lord. The confusion comes from the demon lord Sch'theraqpasstt, mentioned as being the patron of yuan-ti in Dragon #151. Sch'theraqpasst attempted to merge with its layer of the Abyss, but things went awry and it became both an insane Abyssal layer and a fairly powerful demon. The yuan-ti seek to bring it back to its previous level of power and sanity.
Sch'theraqpasst could be considered an aspect of Merrshaulk, however, as all evil serpentine deities are in a way.
Merrshaulk is most like Yig of the Cthulhu mythos.
Also did it every say who(god or demon lord,, major players etc.) exactly he used the Last Word to destroy when he was in that incarnation?
As Tenebrous he killed: Primus (at least before the Modron Energy Pool made a new one), Maanzicorian, Bwimb the Archomental of Ooze, one of the Aztec pantheon deities.
Does Dead Gods indicate that Orcus is ressurected as just a demon lord or as a god?
Though since 3e stripped all Archfiends of their divinity, that certainly brings into question the implied conclusion to 'Dead Gods' being based more or 3e metagame mechanics issues and less adherance to any plotlines.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
It doesn't have a single conclusion in mind, though the entire plot revolves around Orcus attempting to regain both his life and his divinity. The 3e material seems to presume that A) The PCs fail to stop Quah-Nomag the Skull King's attempts to return Orcus to life, and that B) Orcus returns as 'just' an Abyssal Lord.
Though since 3e stripped all Archfiends of their divinity, that certainly brings into question the implied conclusion to 'Dead Gods' being based more or 3e metagame mechanics issues and less adherance to any plotlines.
That should be 3e stripped Orcus of his divinity, except in FR, until the Player's Guide came out in 3.5.
Originally posted by Kuje31
That should be 3e stripped Orcus of his divinity, except in FR, until the Player's Guide came out in 3.5.
Because Wizards just can't make up their minds who actually exists. I think Orcus is still a god, and that all the other archfiends can still grant some spells. Stubborn, stubborn, growl.