Now when the SAGA team was creating sorcerers and mystics, they had a specific goal in mind. Replace wizards and clerics so we can still have the D&D magic that can do everything the player can think of. Myself, I'm approaching it from a different angle, because I already have D&D magic with wizards and clerics who have returned post-WoS.
I am instead concentrating on two peices of flavour text which was sort of lost in the shuffle in both the SAGA rules and the D&D3e rules covering sorcerers.
1) It is the everyman's magic
2) It is the raw chaotic elemental power that was used to create the world
So I've brought back spell shaping, using feats and skills in the Star Wars D20 mold and the Mongoose Publishing's Chaos Magic supplement. Basically it will involve skill checks, spell templates, and hit points to power the spell effects.
So that's the good news. I have however made a few fundamental changes to how sorcery works. For example, I have dropped summoning and enchantment from the schools of sorcery. Simply put enchantment is easier done as item creation feats and summoning and teleportation didn't seem like particularly chaotic or everyman magical effects. So no teleportation for sorcerers, and the only thing they can summon is elementals (thought they more create them than summon them). Since Outsiders are associated with the gods anyway, I really didn't see that as problematic by leaving it the province of wizards and clerics. I also got rid of illusions, because that really isn't chaotic magic either. Since Lunitari is the patroness of illusion magic, I didn't really see that as a problem. Plus, by ridding myself of these three schools, I make the spell shaping a lot easier, because I limit the variables to volume created, area effected, range, damage done, and duration.
I'm trying to do the same thing with mysticism, but since it deals with more esoteric effects, it isn't going very well at all.
So we have the effects of the elemental schools left namely:
Aeromancy – wind, buffet, choke.
Geomancy – earth attacks, immobilization, shaping
Hydromancy – water attacks, dessication, living things
Pyromancy – fire attacks, light effects, temperature
As well, I have shuffled the organization of sorcery schools. See the whole problem rested on the school of Cryomancy. If that, why not Lavamancy? Or Acidmancy?
So I had a condundrum. Should I change the schools to cover the energy effects in the DMG? That didn't seem right and very artificial. Then it dawned on me that all of the effects could be done by combining schools.
Acid - hydromancy and geomancy
Lava - geomancy and pyromancy
Cold - hydromancy and pyromancy (pyromancy used to negate heat)
Sonic - geomancy and aeromancy
Electric - hydromancy and aeromancy
All I would need is a feat that would allow this hybrid magic if one had 5 ranks in another school besides his primary one. On the plus side, this allows many of the sorcerers who lack an ability to obtain it without having to specilize in all four schools. For example, a wizard who has hydromancy and aeromancy lacks spells that roast and burn (the pyromancer's speciality) but now they have electricty to make up for the gap. Cryomancy can make up for the lack of geomancy spell effects that a sorcerer specializing in pyromancy and hydromancy.
So anyway, would that be an acceptable reorganization of magic for the 5th Age fans?
I was with ya for a while, but by the end, it was much more of a retcon of the 5th Age Magic than the 3.5e stuff was.
The restructuring aside though...my one question is, how do you plan the skill system to work? Sorcerers only receive 2 + INT at every level (or 4, can't remember). Either way...that's very few spells per level. And that's only if all their skill points go towards their magic.
The thought I had once upon a time was a purely feat based system (plus spell points, like SAGA based off of Intelligence and level). Then there'd be a DC that one would have to roll minus the spell points used and any ranks one had in Spellcraft. (alot closer to how Sovereign Stone magic worked...at least in the casting).
Matt's (Rooks') may have been like this too...I don't remember now, I'd have to go back and look at it.
Anyway, I'm curious as to the mechanics of this system mostly (and I'll leave the reorganization discussion to others) ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
Wow...
I was with ya for a while, but by the end, it was much more of a retcon of the 5th Age Magic than the 3.5e stuff was.
Yeah, I realize it has some changes, but I would be interested in where the point of divergence is. See, I am approaching it from the perspective that it should be "low sorcery" to the wizard's "high sorcery". The gods can refine the elemental magic of creation a provide a spell that does a particular magical effect. The sorcerer on the other hand, rips raw power right from the source. So the magic of the sorcerer is more crude.
So basically, in order to have the 5th Age fans be really happy would I have to keep all the sorcery schools? Like I said for the schools I cut (Enchantment, Summoning, Spectromancy) I don't really see the corellation. What does teleporting and summoning creatures have to do with raw ambient energy that created the world? What does illusions have to do with it?
The sense I get from the SAGA rules is that the creators started with rules they wanted, then added the flavour text as an after thought. I'm approaching it from a different angle, stressing the flavour text and making the rules match it. If the schools are vastly important, I'm afraid I'm going to need your help to have a flavor reason to tie it all together.
The restructuring aside though...my one question is, how do you plan the skill system to work? Sorcerers only receive 2 + INT at every level (or 4, can't remember). Either way...that's very few spells per level. And that's only if all their skill points go towards their magic.
Ah, I'm dropping the sorcerer and mystic as classes. After all, you can't have spell levels in addition to sorcery skills. Besides class exclusive skills are a thing of the past in 3.5. There will probably only be enough skill points to go around to do 1-3 types of sorcery effectively, but that doesn't bother me given that is what SAGA was all about. Sorcery was a supplement to whatever role you were playing.
The wizards will be the only ones who can take sorcery skills as class based skills, while clerics will be the only ones who can take mysticism skills as class based skills. This will of course, remove the epiphany rules. After all, trained wizards who lose their spell levels fall back on sorcery during the 5th Age, and then switch back to High Sorcery post-WoS. There might have to be some extra perks given to wizards so that they would remain the best sorcerers (lower HP or Skill DC cost as a metamagic feat for example). Then when they convert back post-WoS they just have some sorcery ranks still kicking around.
Of the cross-class bunch, Rangers, Barbarians, Nobles, Rogues, (in that order) probably make the best sorcerers. Bards, Clerics and druids are okay too, though there is less incentive to take sorcery since they already have spell levels, though clerics might find it appealing simply because a lot of their spells are sucked up supporting fellow party members, and because they can heal themselves of hp loss. Fighters probably make the poorest sorcerers.
Now all of these classes will lose a lot of their core flavour and become increasingly more and more like sorcerers as they go higher in level. Combat classes will lose a lot of their feats to sharpen their combat ability, as well as losing a lot of their ability to be damage soakers. Skill based classes (such as bards and rogues) will lose the ability to do their skills as effectively as a rogue of their level.
So I think it is turning out relatively well, but it will be a matter of playtesting and fine tuning. I'm only in the initial stages, which is why I'm turning to you now.
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, I realize it has some changes, but I would be interested in where the point of divergence is.
I guess our main difference here is that I don't see the ambient arcane energy that is used by sorcerers as elemental magic. I see it as the energy used to create elemental magic. The energy itself is raw and unshaped...so, essentially you could use that energy to do whatever you want if it effects the physical matter of things.
Let's see...I guess I see the ambient arcane energy is a generic pool of energy. A sorcerer can then take that energy and shape it into the form that they wish. I don't see it as 4 seperate pools of elemental energies that can then be combined to form other magics. That way, teleportation, summoning, enchantment, cryomancy, transmutation, divination, spectramancy, and electromancy can all be created using this one pool of generic energy and not just the four basic elementals aeromancy, pyromancy, hydromancy, and geomancy.
I guess it's just a difference of philosophy (and me not wanting to let go of SAGA magic)
Originally posted by ferratus
So basically, in order to have the 5th Age fans be really happy would I have to keep all the sorcery schools?
No, I doubt it. Just me. heh heh (although I have accepted the DLCS version...but only to simplify interactions with other DL fans ;)).
Originally posted by ferratus
So I think it is turning out relatively well, but it will be a matter of playtesting and fine tuning. I'm only in the initial stages, which is why I'm turning to you now.
Okay, that makes a little more sense (and does actually match better with SAGA...that'd simplify my Arek Brimstone conversion...which looks like crap.
) But if you got rid of the Sorcerer and Mystic...what do you do for your Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystics? Or any other character that would rather be just strictly a magic user? You can't use the Wizard or Cleric classes, I think, becaus as the afore mentioned lack of skill points.I guess I'd have to see a working model of the rules before I could say anything about it. Otherwise, we probably won't be on the exact same page with the conversation.
Luckily...I think I remember Jamie's first crack at the sorcerer and mystic for 3.5e from the Playtesting. It wasn't a perfect conversion from SAGA to 3.5...but it was alot closer than the PHB sorcerer they had to go with. I thought it was a much better compromise, at any rate. Unfortunately...I bet the NDA still applies after the fact...so I couldn't ever share it with anyone I was gaming with. LOL! What a crapper.
Originally posted by ferratus
Bards, Clerics and druids are okay too, though there is less incentive to take sorcery since they already have spell levels, though clerics might find it appealing simply because a lot of their spells are sucked up supporting fellow party members, and because they can heal themselves of hp loss.
I don't see why it would be an unappealing path at all. You're doubling your "spells" essentially, meaning that the classes who have it as a class skill suddenly become that much more powerful. A wizard or cleric who gets his spells and also maxes out their ranks in certain schools and spheres is suddenly a force to be reckoned with since these skills (I'm assuming, anyways) are more potent than your standard skills. How does the wizard with all of his skill points applied to these schools compare to the wizard who just picks normal skills?
In this sort of system I'd just have them replace spellcasting for sorcerer and mystics, giving each one bonus feats at certain levels, and maybe a few additional class abilities to differentiate each one enough. In order to avoid the whole exclusive skills mechanic I'd do a simple thing: I wouldn't call them skills. They'd be special abilities that the classes can increase by sacrificing skill points. Amazingly enough, these special abilities (which are not skills despite being associated with ability scores, nope) can only have a rank equal to Character Level +3. It's exactly what the game Engel did for its potestae. Consequently, I'm thinking the mystic and sorcerer classes would each have 4 or 6 skill points per level depending upon what else you wanted to add to the class.
If it's absolutely crucial to you that other classes have access to this without taking any levels, then create a feat that they can take to allow limited access a la the Wild Talent feat from d20 Modern. Allow them to put a max of say 4-5 skill points into a single school or sphere. Allow the feat to only be taken once.
Also, I personally fail to see the appeal in a system designed to more accurately emulate the SAGA rules that simultaneously knocks everything about those rules off the table. Enchantment (or enhancement as it's now called) has many uses beyond item creation. Look at magic weapon, greater magic weapon, align weapon, and spells such as that, in addition to dispelling effects to see what all enhancement can accomplish. Summoning in SAGA was also more about transportation of the known than simply plucking some divine being out of thin air, although you could get an existing living Krynnish monster, and somehow the magic of the spell would allow you to try and control it (failure was possible) and if you won you could get it to fight for you to the death. Kind of an evil act, though since it would -really- die unlike summoned creatures. Anyways, I think you're off to a commendable start despite my aforementioned disagreements.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Luckily...I think I remember Jamie's first crack at the sorcerer and mystic for 3.5e from the Playtesting. It wasn't a perfect conversion from SAGA to 3.5...but it was alot closer than the PHB sorcerer they had to go with. I thought it was a much better compromise, at any rate. Unfortunately...I bet the NDA still applies after the fact...so I couldn't ever share it with anyone I was gaming with. LOL! What a crapper.
Lol! Yeah, 'fraid that's still under the NDA. The early primal sorcerer and mystic did much to go along with the SAGA feel, but they weren't playtested at that time, and had a few problems that needed to be worked out.
Personally, I like the result. You get the best of D&D with the PHB sorcerer and the mystic (basically a clerical sorcerer), plus you can emulate the SAGA feel with the Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystic. This actually works fairly well with world continuity too!
Originally posted by Brimstone
I guess our main difference here is that I don't see the ambient arcane energy that is used by sorcerers as elemental magic. I see it as the energy used to create elemental magic. The energy itself is raw and unshaped...so, essentially you could use that energy to do whatever you want if it effects the physical matter of things. Let's see...I guess I see the ambient arcane energy is a generic pool of energy. A sorcerer can then take that energy and shape it into the form that they wish.
We agree here, but the physicial matter of things is the point. I don't see where divinations, illusions and summoning have to do with affecting "physical things". Why them and not mind-influencing spells or shapechanging spells? If it is a raw energy that can be changed to whatever form they wish, then it just seems arbitrary that these things were included.
Once I booted those out, I was left with the energy based magic. I I breifly considered using all of the energy effects as the "new" schools of sorcery, but that seemed too contrived. Then I realized that storms were wind and water. Ice was water and the negation of heat. So I started blending the schools together and was pleasantly suprised to see that it covered the rest of the schools.
I was a little leery of this because it was all about elemental magic as you said. I was pretty sure I remebered however that DL followed the D&D tradition of having the elemental planes be the building blocks of the prime material plane. Consulting the DLCS cosmology, I came across this description of the elemental planes:
...the Elemental Planes do touch upon all realms of existance (for they are the very building blocks of all existence).
So I figured that since they are the building blocks of all existence, then the ambient magical energy should be have much in common with them. However, does that explanation satisfy the 5th Age fan? I suppose I can figure out the more classical spheres of sorcery later. I mean, I have to figure out how to do divination anyway since I booted it over to the mystics (where it seemed a better fit).
But if you got rid of the Sorcerer and Mystic...what do you do for your Academy Sorcerer and Citadel Mystics? Or any other character that would rather be just strictly a magic user? You can't use the Wizard or Cleric classes, I think, becaus as the afore mentioned lack of skill points.
Well, frankly, I'm planning on wizards being the pure casters anyway, because I'm planning for post-WoS. However, if you'll note, a player who really likes sorcery will eventually end up being a sorcerer more than his original class. Since you are dumping all of your feats and skill points into it, the class they will be taking will end up being incidental to their character. The rogue would have a backstab, the fighter would be somewhat good with a sword, but neither would be really worthy of the name anymore.
I guess I'd have to see a working model of the rules before I could say anything about it. Otherwise, we probably won't be on the exact same page with the conversation.
Yeah, I'll have to work on it more, but please tell me what you think of my reasoning here, particularly the first half.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
I don't see why it would be an unappealing path at all. You're doubling your "spells" essentially, meaning that the classes who have it as a class skill suddenly become that much more powerful. A wizard or cleric who gets his spells and also maxes out their ranks in certain schools and spheres is suddenly a force to be reckoned with since these skills (I'm assuming, anyways) are more potent than your standard skills.
Well, doubling the spells isn't so much of a gamebreaker, since wizards can already learn every spell in the PHB, and there are only so many spells a person can cast in a combat. That is the whole principle behind the mystic theurge. As well, since wizards and clerics have very few skill points they would give up the precious knowledge skills they would need such as spellcraft, knowledge (arcana, religion) concentration, etc.
How does the wizard with all of his skill points applied to these schools compare to the wizard who just picks normal skills?
The wizard of all the classes, I maintain has the least reason to pick the sorcerer skills, especially since we can't allow the effects of sorcery to stack with their wizard spells, or mystic skills to stack with cleric spells, or sorcerer skills to stack with cleric spells, or mystic skills to stack with wizard spells.
The big problem that I didn't appreciate was the healing thing. Since HP are powering the number of these spells, clerics can heal themselves up. If they can heal themselves up, they've got better hp than wizards do, and thus would make extremely potent sorcerers. I have to say that I'll have to make sure that HP drained by these spells cannot be healed by magic.
Of course, that means I have to switch to a vitalty/wound point system. You regain 1 vp per level for every hour of rest, so even a 1st level character would be able to cast his couple of spells the next day (since he would get 8 vp points back).
Originally, I figured I would create a sorcery skill that could compete with wizards all the way up, becoming more and more impressive. However, I am increasingly becoming skeptical of this approach, and am thinking that perhaps I should just leave clerics and wizards as the most impressive sorcerers. After all, SAGA magic was never, ever as powerful as its D&D equivelant. All in all, in terms of sheer raw power it seemed to top out at about 4th or 5th level in terms of what it could do. But what do the 5th Age fans have to say about this?
In this sort of system I'd just have them replace spellcasting for sorcerer and mystics, giving each one bonus feats at certain levels, and maybe a few additional class abilities to differentiate each one enough. In order to avoid the whole exclusive skills mechanic I'd do a simple thing: I wouldn't call them skills. They'd be special abilities that the classes can increase by sacrificing skill points.
Yeah, but Andre the whole point of this exercise was to create a type of sorcery that could be used by any class. If I wanted to make these skills exclusive, I wouldn't bother using skills at all. I'd just take the PHB sorcerer, rip off the spell levels, and use a mana spell-point system.
Also, I personally fail to see the appeal in a system designed to more accurately emulate the SAGA rules that simultaneously knocks everything about those rules off the table.
Well, to put it bluntly, SAGA magic was trying to basically replace D&D magic. SAGA sorcerers could enchant weapons, make illusions, teleport, summon creatures, and do divinations because that is what 2e D&D wizards could do. Clerics can do healing and undead. Druids do stuff with plants and animals.
So they divided it up between magic that affects the living and magic that effects the non-living matter and living and unliving matter. That is something I'll be keeping with this magic system, that wasn't kept with the 3e rules. Though, I am going to lament the fact that I'll lose the feel of the 3e mystics. I really liked the effect that it was more about your inner soul becoming magically manifest.
However, while they wanted to keep most of the flavour of a wizard and cleric without levels or set spells, they didn't really have a quite satisfactory explanation for things on the sorcerer side, which I have gone into. As well, I'm not particularly interested in replacing the wizard or cleric, but of creating a new type of magic with its own unique feel.
Originally posted by ferratus
As well, I'm not particularly interested in replacing the wizard or cleric, but of creating a new type of magic with its own unique feel.
Then just be honest with yourself and realize the full implications of this statement, and don't be surprised when 5a fans who would be more excited about a traditional interpretation of the SAGA system genuinely have no interest in your new take on primal magic.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
Then just be honest with yourself and realize the full implications of this statement, and don't be surprised when 5a fans who would be more excited about a traditional interpretation of the SAGA system genuinely have no interest in your new take on primal magic.
Yeah you're right, though the feedback was indeed helpful for me to decide a dozen things I was unsure about.
I'm hoping to keep as much of the SAGA feel as possible, but the whole thing of "does almost exactly the same stuff as a wizard only they can cast spells on the fly" doesn't exactly thrill me. Frankly, for that, the PHB sorcerer is close enough that any other rules tinkering simply isn't worth the trouble.
I hope that 5th Age fans though will appreciate the ability to assemble spells, have sorcery be a major or minor part of any class, specialize in 1-3 spheres of sorcery and have sorcery limited to non living matter.
Originally posted by ferratus
We agree here, but the physicial matter of things is the point. I don't see where divinations, illusions and summoning have to do with affecting "physical things". Why them and not mind-influencing spells or shapechanging spells?
I'm assuming you're including Transmutation in the energy based magic?
Well...here's a thought. Divination is magic that allows you to see things going on in the physical world...but there is no mental divining. No looking into the future. Only the present and the past (at least that's how I would have worked it...but neither I nor any of my players used Diviniation...so I'm not sure how I would have handled it exactly). And no looking into ones mind.
Spectromancy...well, that's magic of light. Which at it's basic level is still physical (if one believes photons exist). So I have no problem with this.
Summoning...well, again I see that as physical magic...or magic that doesn't effect the life force. I see it as summoning works on the physical body much in the same way that the fireball does. It effects the physical body that inturn could effect the life force of the body...but not directly.
Shapechanging I don't see as working because in order to physically change the body...one would have to have Transmutation, Hydromancy, Geomancy, Electromancy, and an incredible working knowledge of the body...both your own and the one you were to change into. However, Alteration taps into the ensence of living beings to reshape one's body into something else.
I don't know...those justifications work for me.
Originally posted by ferratus
...the Elemental Planes do touch upon all realms of existance (for they are the very building blocks of all existence).
Yeah...I read the very same thing last night in the DLDMS.
So it made me rethink some. Perhaps one does not shape that raw energy into elemental energy. Perhaps when dealing with Elemental magics, the raw energy is just used to tap into the Planes that already co-exist with the Material Plane anyway. I mean, maybe it doens't become elemental energy...it simply controls it. I don't know. It definately needs more thought.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...here's a thought. Divination is magic that allows you to see things going on in the physical world...but there is no mental divining. No looking into the future. Only the present and the past (at least that's how I would have worked it...but neither I nor any of my players used Diviniation...so I'm not sure how I would have handled it exactly). And no looking into ones mind.
See that's what I was thinking too, but I don't think "the past" exists as a physical reality. That just leaves the present. But what is divination but an enhanced awareness? That is why I booted it over to Mysticism. Sensitivity was cut and the powers split between Mentalism, Meditation and Divination.
Summoning...well, again I see that as physical magic...or magic that doesn't effect the life force. I see it as summoning works on the physical body much in the same way that the fireball does. It effects the physical body that inturn could effect the life force of the body...but not directly.
Now this works of course, by tearing holes in space-time. However, the main problem with summoning is the fact that you are expected have some means of compelling their obedience when they get there. That is what conjurer wizards have, but it doesn't fit sorcerers. That leaves just teleportation and summoning creatures that are not necessarily loyal. Not enough to make a school as powerful as the rest out of.
As well, to be honest, I'd just rather have Outsiders be more the WoHS shtick, since they are all about godly magic. So when it comes to summoning fiendish and celestial creatures this should be their shtick. Sorcerers do still have the ability to summon elementals, though they craft these creatures out of their raw elements instead.
Shapechanging I don't see as working because in order to physically change the body...one would have to have Transmutation, Hydromancy, Geomancy, Electromancy, and an incredible working knowledge of the body...both your own and the one you were to change into.
See that's the problem I have with the idea of illusions made by spectromancy. We both have the image of raw energy being shaped to do something, but illusions just go much too far in what a sorcerer would have to know about light to make it work.
Perhaps when dealing with Elemental magics, the raw energy is just used to tap into the Planes that already co-exist with the Material Plane anyway.
Perhaps, though what does that mean for the periods when wild magic is spent? Does that mean when Chaos entered the world again he tore open the barriers between the planes, which is why wild sorcery flooded the world?