You can find it Here.
Its a bit farther down the page of the thread, so you won't immediately see it.
As far as the setting goes, I think they fit into it okay. I think Nibenay is supposed to have monks.
If anybody can figure out a good reason why I should disallow this, please let me know too!
Monks in standard 3.5 are balanced against the martial classes by the fact that they CANT use armor, and fighters get some nasty magical weapons. In Dark Sun, fighters aren't going to be walking around in the heavy stuff unless they're suicidal.
Athas is resource and equipment poor. Because of this, martial type classes are at a serious disadvantage versus their counterparts in standard game worlds - the counterparts that Monks are balanced against.
I'm not trying to tell anyone whether or not to include Monks, of course, that's completely up to the individual DM. I'm just stating my reasons why I personally don't allow them in my campaigns (and according to the thread on the Dragon mag on this board, Dave Noonan came to the same conclusion I did, after years of playtesting).
That of course and some slight tweaking to their ki-strike ability. Thinking 4th level (magic), 10th level (metal), and 16th (adamantine). Not much use for a lawful ki strike in dark sun.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
http://www.crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=140
It's only 3.0 though, so it probably needs some adjusting, but it should work better than the monk straight from the PHB.
I've pretty much come to the realization when doing my own D20 conversion that monk is going to have to be tweaked down some, even if I tweak the other classes up.
I just don't think it should be left out totally, too many resources say monks should exist on Athas, and they aren't of the psychic warrior variety that a few people like to cop out on either. ;)
There's plenty of room for both classes IMO.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik :D
The way I was thinking of introducing it was this. Everyone one Athas may have psionic potential (though I believe that the box set said that only a small portion of the population had it.... been a while), but not everyone is capable of harnessing it. As the tradition (Tandarin?) works to combine the body, spirit and mind, a few students who lacked the talent to combine the three turned to only combining the body and spirit.
They expanded the exercises used for improvement of the body and slowly, over the course of many generations, developed their own monasitic order and martial art.
Does that make any sense or does it not fit in the slightest? Um... and if you feel it doesn't, could you give me a reason.
As the tradition (Tandarin?) works to combine the body, spirit and mind, a few students who lacked the talent to combine the three turned to only combining the body and spirit.
Not to be nitpicking (okay, I'm lying, I like to nitpick), but the concept of psionics both in the standard view and in DS has only two levels, the body and the mind, hence the Athasian term the Will and the Way. The Will is the mind exterting its energy on the world at large through its own power, the Way.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Not to be nitpicking (okay, I'm lying, I like to nitpick), but the concept of psionics both in the standard view and in DS has only two levels, the body and the mind, hence the Athasian term the Will and the Way. The Will is the mind exterting its energy on the world at large through its own power, the Way.
No problem, pick away. I could have sworn that it was a tripart view, but its still not much of a problem. They can't mix the two, so they simply focus on the body and become monks, learning to harness a fraction of their psionics as Ki instead.
Originally posted by bossloki
For an Athasian monk just remove all supernatural abilities.
that is a good idea, however, what psionic abilities would you suggest to replace them?
A monks supernatural abilities include...
Ki Strike
Wholeness of Body
Diamond Body
Abundant Step
Quivering Palm
Empty Body
Been there and did it, heh.
And in case you missed it: http://www.crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=140
Originally posted by The_Arcanist
No problem, pick away. I could have sworn that it was a tripart view, but its still not much of a problem. They can't mix the two, so they simply focus on the body and become monks, learning to harness a fraction of their psionics as Ki instead.
I think you might be thinking of how the 2nd Edition psionicist needed 3 good stats to be effective. Wisdom, Intelligence and Constitution.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Been there and did it, heh.
its not a bad write up, in fact i think you put a lot of work into it and did a good job, but it just does not work for me. I just think some of the powers are too strong for my campaign.
I dont like the hide in plain sight, that belongs with a rogue.
What would you think of maybe some of the claw/bite psionic powers instead of ki/psi strike? "monks use their psionic abilities to mimic different animals in the wild" /shrug
What about psionic fist and that line of feats (up to the touch attack ability)?
Mental Leap/Run up walls is nice but nothing special.
i don't know about the occult language ability. i not a big fan of sleep touch, coma, heartwreak either.
how about inertial barrier and improved inertial barrier.
I am just throwing out some ideas without looking in the XPH. I like the diamond warrior prestige class, maybe somethin like that can be adapted to a full class.
I guess the most important question is what do you envision the Athas Monk to be?
I envision them to be tough as nails with a mind and body as hard as a rock.
Loners forever training in the wilds of desert perfecting their mind and body./shrug
In fact, if anyone has ever seen "Fist of the North Star" or read the comic, you get my general idea what a monk should be in Athas.
Originally posted by The_Arcanist
No problem, pick away. I could have sworn that it was a tripart view, but its still not much of a problem. They can't mix the two, so they simply focus on the body and become monks, learning to harness a fraction of their psionics as Ki instead.
I recall Aegis of Asticles mentioning something about the 3-part concept for psionics in the PP. However that's the only reference I can think of, and it might be an inaccurate one at that.
Originally posted by Exner
its not a bad write up, in fact i think you put a lot of work into it and did a good job, but it just does not work for me. I just think some of the powers are too strong for my campaign.
Tis all good, it's definately not perfect, though Brax did rather like it, so much that he helped me with it, heh.
Definately going to tweak it once I get my XPsiHb (come on Amazon!).
I dont like the hide in plain sight, that belongs with a rogue.
Yeah, I think that needs to go too, felt good at the time.
What would you think of maybe some of the claw/bite psionic powers instead of ki/psi strike? "monks use their psionic abilities to mimic different animals in the wild" /shrug
Steps too much on the psychic warrior's toes IMO.
What about psionic fist and that line of feats (up to the touch attack ability)?
Possibly.
how about inertial barrier and improved inertial barrier./
Thought about it.
I like the diamond warrior prestige class, maybe somethin like that can be adapted to a full class.
I should take a look at that.
I guess the most important question is what do you envision the Athas Monk to be?
Exactly the way it is in the PHB, heh, the problem is it's unbalanced with my vision of D20 DS. So, if I'm going to tweak one thing I might as well ponder to see if I want something better that says DS more and build that. I really like what I came up with on the flavor text though.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Exactly the way it is in the PHB, heh, the problem is it's unbalanced with my vision of D20 DS. So, if I'm going to tweak one thing I might as well ponder to see if I want something better that says DS more and build that. I really like what I came up with on the flavor text though.
PHB vison of the monk is a good one (in fact my fav. class) but it fits too much in the classical fastasy vision of what a monk should be. Dark Sun is all about the break from traditional fantasy into the realm of post apocalyptic/Mad Max/Fallout type fantasy. It is a big reason why the traditional paladin has no place there (and one can argue the why the traditional monk should not be there either).
I would argue that the Dark Sun monk is really a brawler looking to fashion themselves into a weapon into something perfect rather then reach inner peace. Perhaps they find inner peace through combat, through killing.
This is why I suggest people take a look at "Fist of the North Star" as inspiration for a Dark Sun monk. The Fallout game had another good example. The ultimate feat of their martial artist was called a "Slayer." The description went something like wandering the wastelands alone as a killing machine.
While I love the PHB monk, its just not f---ed up enough to be Dark Sun.
Originally posted by Exner
This is why I suggest people take a look at "Fist of the North Star" as inspiration for a Dark Sun monk. The Fallout game had another good example. The ultimate feat of their martial artist was called a "Slayer." The description went something like wandering the wastelands alone as a killing machine.
Actually the Slayer Perk also applied to using melee weapons as well. What it did was give something like a 90% chance of doing critical hits. There was also a similar Perk for guns called Sniper.
will start by taking a look at the other writeups presented here..
but without sitting down to think about it, might be something like reducing hth damage a bit, making it so that Flurry of Blows expends Psionic Focus (yeah, make the monks similar in a way to the Psychic Warrior in a certain sense, but without giving them all the powers and the PP that the PsyWars get) and let a few other abilities Expend Psionic Focus to use (yeah, it doesn't keep them from being used at all, just delays a bit till they can be used again - and since Flurry is a Full attack action, limits it to once every other round, even with a Moveaction refocus)
So while trying to keep them as true to form as possible, will see if I can rework them so that they don't ouitshine any of the other classes.
Will let ya know what I come up with.
Originally posted by motorfirebox
replace one or more of the "soul of _____ / _____ body" powers with powers that reduce/eliminate the need for water and food.
that is a good idea. I would keep it simple with the rest though. I think it would be better to have free activated psionic abilities rather then cost psionic points. Rather then have increased h2h damage, have level based claws/bites. Rather then increased AC abilites, have deflection/intertial barriers. Flat rate psionic resistances, etc. I would keep flurry as it is and probably keep the non-supernatural abilities as they are and replace the the su abililities with psionic abilities.
just my 2cents
Therefore:
No level dodge AC bonus, replace with bonus power points
Make the following Psi-based, not magical based:
Bonus feats can be chosen from Psionic feats
Ki Strike (or similar DR ability)
Wholeness of Body
Diamond Body
Abundant Step
Quivering Palm
Empty Body
Add psionic resistance to magic resistance ability
Available psionic bonus feats could include:
psionic dodge, psionic fist, greater psionic fist, unavoidable blow?
Suggestions?
I guess, the AC can be further nerfed by removing wisdom bonus to AC and add best BAB? (makes the monk more combat oriented/less untouchable).
Monks in Dark Sun
First of all, I think that there is room for a Dark Sun monk class, not simply because its in D&D (I don't allow sorcerers or paladins, or even soulknives in). Nibenay and raam are both said to house monk monasteries. Also, the Sensei character kit was presented in the Will and the Way (not sure if its that book, but sure about the kit). And I'd even go as far as suggest there might be some links between the monks and Yamaruke, the ruined city-state, whose names sounds vaguely oriental. Monks might be remnants of lost monasteries from that culture. But that's just an idea.
Also, there is no need to have monks be truly oriental. It just makes sense that in a world where weapons become rare, people become poor and basic psionic abilities are common, monk monasteries could form. When looking at the monk, its not too hard to simply replace oriental flavored abilities (Tongues of the Sun and Moon comes to mind) to make it something slightly more athasian.
Lastly, though a prestige class could work, I think the base class is more appropriate. First thing, since the basic class already exists, it makes it a lot easier to avoid unbalanced prestige class creation for no reason. Second, prestige class usually represent somekind of specialisation of the basic abilities of the character's base class. However, I don't really see any class that would go well as a base class for this, as all other warrior classes are weapon and armor oriented, no matter what feat they choose.
What needs and doesn't need to be taken into consideration
Many people, myself included, assumed that since monks didn't need armor and weapons to be balanced, they would be too powerful compared to other Dark Sun warrior classes. However, I now feel that this is not that true:
First of all, even if the monk doesn't use armor, it doesn't mean he doesn't get to benefit from magical protections, just as any other class, while he raises in levels. Though he won't have a +3 full plate, he might very well get Bracers of armor +8 or rings of protection that will do the trick. In fact, from what I understand, the monk could benefit from the Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds) just as any other D&D class, meaning that D&D has balanced the monk with the same equipment value of other classes.
The only real difference is at lower levels, where magical items and protection would be rare. So the monk still needs some readjustment on his defensive abilities to balance them a bit, since athasian warrior classes won't even get nonmagical armor a lot.
However, note that the fact that classes with heavy armor proficiency won't get to wear there heavier armor at low-levels is not someting the monk needs to be balanced with, since those classes need to be balanced with this issue themselves. Indeed, heavy armor and good weapons were part of the balancing factor of fighters and psychic warriors vs all classes. Wizards, rogues, psioncs, etc. All those classes would become unbalanced, as the monk, if the heavy armor classes weren't tweaked themselves. Now the athas.org conversion hasn't really done that, but then again, it hasn't really reduced their weapon or armor capabilities either. Anyways, no matter what, its not up to the monk to be concerned with that.
Same thing goes with weapons, but there is something here though. Monks never really got to use magic items to augment their attack and damage, unless they used monk weapons, with which they were really disadvantaged anyways. Since warrirors will be pretty much denied magical weapons (unless you insist on playing straight D&D), something has to be done to temper the monk's attack and damage abilities. I'll have a suggestion on that.
Finally, if you play low-magic campaigns, the many abilities of the monk may give him another edge on other PCs, so tempering those a bit might be in order, but nothing really excessive.
What I did, in short
- Monks are a psionic class. Their abilities are all psionic based. They do not gain power points however, they gain abilities in a way similar to the soulknife.
- Many of the monk's abilities require the monk to maintain psionic focus. Other require the monk to expend it. This brings some balancing element to the monk's abilities, since he must choose between maintaining some abilities, or loosing them to use one, and taking the time to regain focus.
- Many of the monk's abilities translate directly into psionic abilities. Not really hard to convert.
- Monks do not gain ''monk weapons'' proficiencies (those are really the oriental ''peasant'' weapons). They have proficiency in only one trademark weapon: The quarterstaff, which they can use with flurry of blows, as normal.
- The big one: monks gain all the benefits of unarmed figthing, except one: They deal nonleathal damage with their attacks. If they want to deal lethal damage, they must take the standard -4 penalty to their attack rolls.
- Following Unearthed Arcana, monks will choose a tradition, based on the material of Raam and Nibenay, which will set their choice of feats and give them a little skill bonus and an ability at 6th level.
Last thing
Nyt's mystic was the real inspiration behind my athasian monk. I think the class works well with Dark Sun.
Really liking what I'm reading on your monk class Shei-nad.
Thanks too btw.
So far I read the Sensei part (Will and the Way) and the description of the Monastic Movement (Ivory Triangle).
Anything else? Its kind of hard to come up with the fighting styles traditions without references, and those stated above don't give me much to work with.
Hmm... I think I have an idea for a more generic psionic monk...
Originally posted by Markus.l
Have a question about how I should handle something related. My group is currently in F.R. After I digest the XPH I'll be sending the group through a portal to D.S. for reasons I don't want to go into right now. There is a Githzerai 2nd level monk in the group. What would be the best way to handle level advancement for him since he is a monk? Thanx
Heh! You won't need to! ;)
1- Your FR bards, wizards and sorcerers will be cut off from the weave, and won't be able to cast spells.
2- Your FR clerics and druids, paladins and rangers will be cut off from their gods, and won't be able to cast spells, or use any powers.
3- Your fighters and clerics will suffocate in their metal armor, and become prime targets for everyone they meet.
Chances are, they'll never get to level! :p
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Heh! You won't need to! ;)
1- Your FR bards, wizards and sorcerers will be cut off from the weave, and won't be able to cast spells.
2- Your FR clerics and druids, paladins and rangers will be cut off from their gods, and won't be able to cast spells, or use any powers.
3- Your fighters and clerics will suffocate in their metal armor, and become prime targets for everyone they meet. Chances are, they'll never get to level! :p
LOL! Too funny.
1) I was going to let the Arcane users slide (but still have to worry about defiling rules & magic hatred).
2) The clerics will be S.O.L. but if they choose to worship an element I'll let them be a cleric of equal level (5th level Mystra = 5th level Air) Don't have the others in the group.
3) They'll either have to take it off and sell it or fry and/or get killed for it.
Which leads me to my original question still. How should I handle the change over for the Monk? NytCrawlr's variant looks good to use for continuation. Nathan will you be updating your D.S. monk [and your site] to XPH anytime soon?
Once amazon in all their evil punctuality issues actually sends the dern thing to me and I get a chance to look at it. :D
For those interested, here's the abilities description, and the order, of my athasian monk. I can't make a table on this board, so you'll have to bear with the standard explanations.
Monk
Game Rule Information
As PHB.
Class Skills
As PHB, but remove Knowledge(arcana) (Int), add Autohypnosis (Wis) and Knoweldge(psionics) (Int).
Skill Points: 4.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the monk.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A monk is only proficient his trademark weapon: the quarterstaff. However, their unarmed martial training more than compensates for their lack of weapons training. Additionally, The monk is not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Flurry of blows (Ex): As PHB, but can only be used with unarmed attacks or with the quarterstaff.
Unarmed Strike (Ex): As PHB, but the monk deals nonlethal damage with his unarmed attacks. She may still take a –4 penalty to her attack rolls in order to deal lethal damage, however.
Wild Talent: Only those who show some psionic potential can be trained in the monastic traditions. Monks gain this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Evasion: As PHB.
Psionic Fist: Monks gain this feat for free at 2nd level, even if they do not meet the prerequisites
Still Mind (Ex): As PHB, but the bonus applies to all Will saves against mind-affecting effects.
Psionic Speed (Su): At 3rd level, a monk gains a 10 feet enhancement bonus to her speed for as long as she remains psionically focused, and not encumbered by armor or medium or heavy loads. This enhancement bonus to speed increases by 10 feet for every 3 monk levels thereafter.
Psionic Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are treated as psionic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful, and at 16th level, they are treated as steel weapons.
Psionic Fall (Su): As PHB, but the monk must remain psionically focused to use this ability.
Psionic Meditation: Monks gain this feat as a bonus feat at 6th level, even if they do not meet the prerequisites.
Purity of Body (Ex): As PHB.
Wholeness of the Body (Su): As PHB, but the monk must expend her psionic focus to use this ability.
Improved Evasion (Ex): As PHB.
Psionic Body (Ex): As Diamond Body of the PHB.
Psionic Mouvement (Su): As Abundant Step of the PHB, but works as Psionic Dimension Door, and the monk must also expend her psionic focus.
Psionic Soul (Ex): As Diamond Soul of the PHB, but grants a psionic resistance.
Strike at the Soul (Su): At 15th level, a monk learns to strike at the core of her opponent with a unarmed attack, separating her foe’s consciousness from her body. As a standard action that can be used once per day and expends the monk’s psionic focus, the monk can make one unarmed attack against an opponent. If the attack hits, the target takes normal damage and must succeed a Will save against a DC of 10+ ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wisdom modifier or fall unconscious for 1 day per level of the monk who made the attack. The Psionic Revivify power can end this effect, but nothing short of a limited wish, miracle or wish spell can restore the character’s consciousness before that time. This is a mind-affecting ability.
Timeless Body (Ex): As PHB.
Tongues of the Mind (Su): At 17th level, the monk may use the Mindlink power at will. Her manifester level for that power is equal to half her manifester level.
Empty Body (Su): As PHB, but replicates psionic etherealness instead.
Perfect Self: As PHB, but the monk gains Damage Reduction 10/psionic.
There you are. I,m also thinking of upgrading the class to include ''fighting styles / traditions '' from UA. In any case, prestige classes for the two nibenese monk orders could be in order.
NytCrwlr
Its hard to reach you by personal messages, and my internet has troubles. Did you get my last email (comments on your rules) ?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Nah, preorder via amazon is cheaper.
NOOOOOOoooooo! That's not what I meant. I meant you should just go there if you have some free time to read it on their comfy couches, not buy it! Amazon is by far the cheapest though, unless you get lucky with eBay.