First of all, let me start by saying that out of all the excellent conversions out there, I like Xlorep's the best overall. There are a few issues I have, mainly with some information being somewhat confusing, but mainly I feel the avangion as Xlorep currently has it is underpowered compared to a dragon. When I brought up this concern, Xlorep stated that wasn't finished with it, so I decided to submit some unsolicited (and most likely unwanted!
) feedback.Now, my personal opinion on the matter, is that the Dragon's should rely on his offense; nasty natural weapons, great armor, and a breath weapon to make a sorceror-king curl up under his blanky and cry himself to sleep at night. Furthermore, a dragon should have all the defensive abilities that one might expect from a player/creature of that epic level.
An avangion, on the other hand, should be just the opposite. As per Dragon Kings and Xlorep's conversion, they become extraordinarily frail physically, becoming so weak they can't even support their own weight! With the complete loss of any kind of physical ability as well as a lack of innate magical offense such as a breath weapon, I think an avangion should represent the polar opposite of what a dragon embodies. Instead of being a terror on Athas, an avangion should be benign, but still incredibly powerful. As it lacks any innate offense, an avangion should be balanced with incredible defense.
In the Dragon Kings book (which I do not have in front of me, and as such the numbers might be off), Dragons had brutal melee abilities, a 25d12+something breath weapon, a -10 AC, needed a +2 (3?) weapon to hit, and had around 30% magic resistance. They also received an enormous number of hitpoints, ranging from 10d4 additional for the first level, and varying after that.
An avangion lost all physical abilities, gained some points in Wisdom (perhaps either Int or Cha as well), gained far fewer HP (but still a respectable number), and eventually became so weak they couldn't even stand up. To balance this out, though, they had an AC of -6 (not as good as a dragon, but still very nice), could only be hit by +5 (!!) weapons or better, had a magic resistance of 80%, and had a very nice Avangion aura which had protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement, and ended up being a permanent Globe of Invulnerability.
From what I recall of Xlorep's conversion (Hurry and get your site back up, man
), a Dragon has somewhere around 25 DR, while an avangion has... 35? IMO either the dragon needs to be lower, or the avangion higher. I think there should be a wider difference here, if we're modeling after 2nd Edition ideas, where a difference between a +2 or +3 requirement to hit and a +5 was huge... there were very few +5 weapons out there. The next is magic resistance. Xlorep has some nice bonuses to Avangions in this regard by providing bonuses to saves versus spells, but I don't think this goes far enough. I think on top of the bonus to saves, Avangions should gain significant spell and psionic resistance levels, as this was one of their main strengths in 2.0 (80% resist... drool). This might be one area where a dragon is weaker as well - while they have oodles of HP and very good natural AC, they are more easily damaged from "lesser" beings. One idea I liked on the Library of Urik site was to let the avangion choose feats in order to increase the strength of his Aura, effectively increasing the spell level the Globe protects against per feat selection. Another idea is to give them DR to energy types as well as physical damage.
An avangion is going to have very very few HP, being based on a d4 HD. While I agree that avangions should be quite frail to damage taken, I think they need extremely powerful defensive abilities to ward off harm - Low AC but high DR, low HP but high SR/PR.
Anyway, like I said I really like Xlorep's set up. I just thought I'd post my ideas and perhaps provoke some discussion, if the oldtimers here aren't completely worn out on the subject ;)
The only thing I'm willing to tell my players is that you have to be an epic character before you can even consider transformations such as these.
However, this post has triggered another idea that I don't think many people have thought about previously. Not that anyone from athas.org is working on this kind of stuff at the moment, but did anybody bother checking out the creatures in Savage Species? You know, the monsters that were broken down into class levels for PC's who wanted to play them? Not only does this book have an excellent source of creature abilities to use for other advanced beings (cleric elementals for one) but it also lists some possibly overlooked abilities and level breakdowns for creatures similar to avangions. Certain celestials come to mind, and the spell immunity powers of the rakshasa sound really close to being usable. Anyways, just putting this source out there for whomever's interested.
Originally posted by Porkchops
I was going to post this eventually on Xlorep's forums, but as his website is down I thought I'd post it here
That's cool, I appreciate the compliment
First of all, let me start by saying that out of all the excellent conversions out there, I like Xlorep's the best overall. There are a few issues I have, mainly with some information being somewhat confusing, but mainly I feel the avangion as Xlorep currently has it is underpowered compared to a dragon. When I brought up this concern, Xlorep stated that wasn't finished with it, so I decided to submit some unsolicited (and most likely unwanted!
Any feedback is always accepted. I might fume, rant and attempt to convince you that you are wrong, but usually tidbits of ideas get juggled around and work their way in still. Just ask Pennarin - he's seen me hate one idea, only to later slip it into the writeup.
Now, my personal opinion on the matter, is that the Dragon's should rely on his offense; nasty natural weapons, great armor, and a breath weapon to make a sorceror-king curl up under his blanky and cry himself to sleep at night. Furthermore, a dragon should have all the defensive abilities that one might expect from a player/creature of that epic level.
I agree, the dragon should be a very nasty offensive machine. I see them split between their impressive magical powers and their impressive physical prowess.
An avangion, on the other hand, should be just the opposite. As per Dragon Kings and Xlorep's conversion, they become extraordinarily frail physically, becoming so weak they can't even support their own weight! With the complete loss of any kind of physical ability as well as a lack of innate magical offense such as a breath weapon, I think an avangion should represent the polar opposite of what a dragon embodies. Instead of being a terror on Athas, an avangion should be benign, but still incredibly powerful. As it lacks any innate offense, an avangion should be balanced with incredible defense.
I feel the Avangion, while physically weak, should be very magically/psionically powerful. This is why I want to take special care with the Avangion Magic write-up I will do
They sacrifice their physical prowess for eventual greater metaphysical power in the end.In the Dragon Kings book (which I do not have in front of me, and as such the numbers might be off), Dragons had brutal melee abilities, a 25d12+something breath weapon, a -10 AC, needed a +2 (3?) weapon to hit, and had around 30% magic resistance. They also received an enormous number of hitpoints, ranging from 10d4 additional for the first level, and varying after that.
I'm still smoothing the Dragons out to make them flow better, and feel more "dragonlike" in the rules. One of the things was to give them the same basical melee attacks that are presented in the PHB, as well as the ELH. I want them to use the same damage tables. Same as with their breath weapons, which I can't remember if I made that adjustment. I don't mean make them thinned-out and simply a regular dragon, but to use some of the mechanics that are already in place for such things, if they fit. I also had them slowly convert over to straight d12's for their hit dice. I dunno if I'm gonna keep that as is, as I was working with making them work better as a "dragon" creature. But I still might shift it back. There's a lot of playtesting I'm planning for my Dragons & Avangions.
An avangion lost all physical abilities, gained some points in Wisdom (perhaps either Int or Cha as well), gained far fewer HP (but still a respectable number), and eventually became so weak they couldn't even stand up. To balance this out, though, they had an AC of -6 (not as good as a dragon, but still very nice), could only be hit by +5 (!!) weapons or better, had a magic resistance of 80%, and had a very nice Avangion aura which had protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement, and ended up being a permanent Globe of Invulnerability.
I never felt that they made them balanced with Dragons very well either. I have included all their aura effects however.
From what I recall of Xlorep's conversion (Hurry and get your site back up, man
Two things to think about. First - Damage Reduction works differently in 3.5e than in 3.0e. I was keeping according to the numbers that are for 3.5e on this, and 35 is the highest I found (on some epic creatures and deities). 25 is closer to what a high-powered, non-epic creature (or weak epic creature with DR) has. I might lower this to 20, but it's still in review. If you look in the MM, most creatures with DR's are 5, 10, or 15. I think there's a few (Great Wyrms) with DR 20. For the ELH and Deities & Demigods, using the rules changes supplement released by WotC on their website, you'll see that the ranges there are 15, 20, 25 and occasionally 30 with an absolutely rare 35 in there IIRC. There aren't any higher DR's that I can think of off hand.
Second - the material which can get through this is more the point. I forget what materials I set it up for Dragons (I think metal & epic or something like that), while for the Avangion it was some obscure specific type of metal - like cold iron or adamantine & epic. This means that it's easier to get around a Dragon's DR than an Avangion's. Neither are easy to reach, however. Epic & metal means that it needs an epic-enchanted weapon made of any metal, while epic & cold iron would mean that not only does it need the epic-enchanted weapon, but also to be made of a material which the formula for making it has been lost to the ages, making it virtually impossible to find.
The next is magic resistance. Xlorep has some nice bonuses to Avangions in this regard by providing bonuses to saves versus spells, but I don't think this goes far enough. I think on top of the bonus to saves, Avangions should gain significant spell and psionic resistance levels, as this was one of their main strengths in 2.0 (80% resist... drool). This might be one area where a dragon is weaker as well - while they have oodles of HP and very good natural AC, they are more easily damaged from "lesser" beings. One idea I liked on the Library of Urik site was to let the avangion choose feats in order to increase the strength of his Aura, effectively increasing the spell level the Globe protects against per feat selection. Another idea is to give them DR to energy types as well as physical damage.
I've been planning on doing something like doubling their SR/PR or something, making them virtually impossible to affect with magic or psionics.
An avangion is going to have very very few HP, being based on a d4 HD. While I agree that avangions should be quite frail to damage taken, I think they need extremely powerful defensive abilities to ward off harm - Low AC but high DR, low HP but high SR/PR.
I'd say they might have a special AC bonus, representing their innate abilities to avoid being damaged - some sort of unique bonus to AC.
Anyway, like I said I really like Xlorep's set up. I just thought I'd post my ideas and perhaps provoke some discussion, if the oldtimers here aren't completely worn out on the subject ;)
Well, you're pretty much covering many of the things I've already been juggling in my head.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
While Xorlep's work is indeed very good, and there are numerous sources out there for prestige classes based on these two advanced beings, its probably too early to start statting up characters that have advanced this far. My campaign is only starting for instance.
I've had a Dark Sun campaign that went to the Epic levels (I occasionally make a fast-pased game where people level either every session or every other session). The characters never went after the Advanced Being ideas, however that started me on the thought process that it could be a very strong eventuality in my campaigns, and I needed something to build off of for it.
The only thing I'm willing to tell my players is that you have to be an epic character before you can even consider transformations such as these.
And for my characters, that's how it works. I can be a miser when it comes to information, especially in a world like Dark Sun which is really bizarre and an atypical fantasy setting.
However, this post has triggered another idea that I don't think many people have thought about previously. Not that anyone from athas.org is working on this kind of stuff at the moment, but did anybody bother checking out the creatures in Savage Species? You know, the monsters that were broken down into class levels for PC's who wanted to play them? Not only does this book have an excellent source of creature abilities to use for other advanced beings (cleric elementals for one) but it also lists some possibly overlooked abilities and level breakdowns for creatures similar to avangions. Certain celestials come to mind, and the spell immunity powers of the rakshasa sound really close to being usable. Anyways, just putting this source out there for whomever's interested.
I've looked into it, and was planning on including several ideas presented in Savage Species, however not *exactly* how they are presented....
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Just ask Pennarin - he's seen me hate one idea, only to later slip it into the writeup.
:P