How far did Gygax go with Greyhawk? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How far did Gygax go with Greyhawk?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Apr 16, 2004 19:19:49 I noticed that Gygax's first suppliment (Greyhawk Gazetteer 1980) stops at 576 cy.

Not having access to many of the products produced before the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, I was wondering at which point Gygax stopped contributing to the story of Greyhawk, and other writers took up the reins in writing its history...
#2
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 13:41:24 We'll never know unitl the old codger gives up the ghost, something I hope won't happen for a very long time.
#3
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 13:51:50 Gygax wrote the '83 setting box and a few modules and that's as far (publication wise) he ever took Greyhawk, I'm sure he had plenty more within his own notes/head but as far as actual Greyhawk stuff thats what he put out.
#4
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 15:34:52 Thanx.

At what common year would the 83' box set end at?

And on a related note, could the map from Living Greyhawk Gazetteer be used with these earlier suppliments (80' or 83') without difficulty?
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 16:15:26 nothing to see here folks...
#6
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 16:16:37 The '83 box stops at 576, I don't think Gygax ever advanced the timeline of Greyhawk.

The map from the LGG is mostly compatible except you have to take into account that some of the countries from the '83 boxset do not exist anymore such as the Horned Society, and Great Kingdom. Ahlissa and North Kingdom are one country in the '83 box, Rauxes is not in ruins, the Sheild Lands are not in ruins, Furyondy is a bit bigger, and Iuz is smaller due to the prescence of the Horned Society.

I believe you can buy the '83 set for d/l off one of those ESD sites but I'm not sure which, I know that's how I got mine but that was a LONG time ago. I think it was svsgame.com or svgames.com something like that.
#7
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 16:18:09 Excellent- many thanks.
#8
zombiegleemax
Apr 17, 2004 16:26:55 no problem
#9
OleOneEye
Apr 17, 2004 16:31:14 Gygax wrote several Dragon articles which advanced the timeline a couple years past 576.
#10
grodog
Apr 18, 2004 0:09:41 OldOneEye's spot on. EGG and RJK wrote several articles in Dragon Magazine that update the details from the 1980 folio and the 1983 box set.

Check out Russ Taylor's GH in Dragon index at http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/greyhawk/dragon_index.html, and/or Roger E. Moore's similar Greyhawk index (once hosted on WotC, now at Canonfire! IIRC):

In particular, I recommend the following articles (details from Russ' site):

Dragon #37, p.10
From the Sorceror's Scroll: the Shape of the World, by Gary Gygax
Information about the Greyhawk campaign setting and the armies and holdings of Bigby, Mordenkainen, Robilar, and Tenser

Dragon #55, p. 17
From the Sorceror's Scroll: More "meat" for Greyhawk, by Gary Gygax
An update on the status of the World of Greyhawk setting, along with information on the races of the Flanaess

Dragon #56. p.18
From the Sorceror's Scroll: News of the North Central Flanaess, by Gary Gygax
Recent events (578 CY) in and around the lands of Iuz and the Bandit Kingdoms

Dragon #57, p.13
From the Sorceror's Scroll: Developments from Stonefist to South Province, by Gary Gygax
Further news of the events of CY 578, focusing on the barbarian lands, the South Province, and the Iron League

Dragon #59, p.24
The Great Kingdom and the Knights of Doom, by Robert J. Kuntz
Statistics and levels for the Demonic Knights of Doom, as well as the politics of Rauxes

Dragon #63, p.14
Where the bandits are, by Gary Gygax
Map and details on the Bandit Kingdoms

Dragon #63, p.15
Greyhawk's World: Events of the Eastern and Southern Flanaess, by Robert J. Kuntz
Further information on the war efforts of the Great Kingdom

Dragon #65, p.11
Greyhaw's World: Events of the Eastern and Southern Flanaess (II), by Robert J. Kuntz
The Spindrift Isles, Nyrond, and Almor

All are good fodder for ideas on the direction Gygax and Kuntz were taking Greyhawk, had they remained at the helm. Carl Sargent's GH employs many of the ideas and characters from these articles and from EGG's novels, in the FtA-era products, and Roger Moore's GH98 and the LGG era both build on these foundations.
#11
zombiegleemax
Apr 18, 2004 18:50:13 Thanks- will search for the articles
#12
protonik_dup
Apr 19, 2004 0:27:51 EGG still plays a 1E Greyhawk campaign to my understanding so why not ask him on Enworld when he gets back...

Jason
#13
Halberkill
Apr 19, 2004 11:42:52
Originally posted by protonik
EGG still plays a 1E Greyhawk campaign to my understanding so why not ask him on Enworld when he gets back...

Jason

He doesn't like to talk about Greyhawk, except to relate old adventuring stories.

Halber
#14
lincoln_hills
Apr 19, 2004 14:07:15 Of course he doesn't. First off, he's a DM - and we all know that DMs are not wild about giving away their campaign secrets.

Secondly, while I've no idea what caused the massive split between Gygax and his onetime buddies at TSR, I smell a lot of bad feelings that everybody involved prefers to keep buried.

I presume that he won't talk about the modern Greyhawk product (even elements that he likes) because he feels as if it was stolen from him. (Those who did the 'stealing', whoever they are, are probably not even employed at WotC...)

Also, of course, most folks who talk about Greyhawk now are talking about one of the third editions. It'd be like logging on to a forum about classic cars and finding that everybody else there is debating about the GPS for their car's onboard computer.
#15
OleOneEye
Apr 19, 2004 18:17:58 The way I understand it, Mr. Lincoln, is that Gary Gygax had a divorce with his wife. His wife got TSR in the divorce decree. That leaves some hard feelings.
#16
protonik_dup
Apr 19, 2004 19:59:15 WTF are you talking about? EGG was NOT married to Lorraine Williams.

Jason
#17
zombiegleemax
Apr 27, 2004 5:11:57 ok, this is information gleaned from 20 years of Con attendence, and lots of online research and some reading between the lines. There are others here who can correct errors I make and I invite them to do so. (Chatdemon, Grodog, PSmedger, EricMona, ScottyG to name a few).

Gygax and Brian Blume started TSR together. Gygax the idea guy, Blume the money guy. They were business partners that probably never really got along.

Around 84' or 85 the company was struggling. Gygax was focusing on California (the D&D Cartoon and the possibility of a movie), and sales were low. They rushed some projects out before they were ready (Unearthed Arcania and Temple of Elemental Evil), but it wasn't enough. Lorraine Williams and Blume were able to outmanuever Gygax and take control of the company and outst him (around '86).

He showed his feelings towards them in his Gord books, (by blowing up Oerth) and they their feelings towards him (WG7, making a joke out of his famous Castle Greyhawk).

TSR (as stupid as it sounds now) then followed the business policy of trying to vigorously enforce its copyrights (i.e. trying to squash all fan created work involving its copywrited material). This, of course, made it extremely cool and rebellous for all the internet nerds (no offense, but this was '88, '89) to produce a ton of fan created work to defy TSR. This lead to the Greychat area, and the creation of the Oerth Journals. It was fun for us hobbiests, but Gygax was still a professional in the gaming world. Any mention about what he would do with Greyhawk or ideas he had on development, or other things along those lines, would have subject him to liability issues.

He had permission to finish his Gord novels, but after that, avoided all Greyhawk related inquiries. It was probably in a legal document somewhere that he would not discuss Greyhawk.

Now that WOTC and Hasbro own Greyhawk, he could probably answer these inquiries, but he may still be under a legal prohibition, and he has been refusing to do so for 20 years and is fairly famous for his stubbornness. I doubt he will ever chime in on the subject.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 16, 2004 19:19:49	I noticed that Gygax's first suppliment (Greyhawk Gazetteer 1980) stops at 576 cy. Not having access to many of the products produced before the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, I was wondering at which point Gygax stopped contributing to the story of Greyhawk, and other writers took up the reins in writing its history...
#2 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 13:41:24	We'll never know unitl the old codger gives up the ghost, something I hope won't happen for a very long time.
#3 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 13:51:50	Gygax wrote the '83 setting box and a few modules and that's as far (publication wise) he ever took Greyhawk, I'm sure he had plenty more within his own notes/head but as far as actual Greyhawk stuff thats what he put out.
#4 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 15:34:52	Thanx. At what common year would the 83' box set end at? And on a related note, could the map from Living Greyhawk Gazetteer be used with these earlier suppliments (80' or 83') without difficulty?
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 16:15:26	nothing to see here folks...
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 16:16:37	The '83 box stops at 576, I don't think Gygax ever advanced the timeline of Greyhawk. The map from the LGG is mostly compatible except you have to take into account that some of the countries from the '83 boxset do not exist anymore such as the Horned Society, and Great Kingdom. Ahlissa and North Kingdom are one country in the '83 box, Rauxes is not in ruins, the Sheild Lands are not in ruins, Furyondy is a bit bigger, and Iuz is smaller due to the prescence of the Horned Society. I believe you can buy the '83 set for d/l off one of those ESD sites but I'm not sure which, I know that's how I got mine but that was a LONG time ago. I think it was svsgame.com or svgames.com something like that.
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 16:18:09	Excellent- many thanks.
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2004 16:26:55	no problem
#9 OleOneEye Apr 17, 2004 16:31:14	Gygax wrote several Dragon articles which advanced the timeline a couple years past 576.
#10 grodog Apr 18, 2004 0:09:41	OldOneEye's spot on. EGG and RJK wrote several articles in Dragon Magazine that update the details from the 1980 folio and the 1983 box set. Check out Russ Taylor's GH in Dragon index at http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/greyhawk/dragon_index.html, and/or Roger E. Moore's similar Greyhawk index (once hosted on WotC, now at Canonfire! IIRC): In particular, I recommend the following articles (details from Russ' site): Dragon #37, p.10 From the Sorceror's Scroll: the Shape of the World, by Gary Gygax Information about the Greyhawk campaign setting and the armies and holdings of Bigby, Mordenkainen, Robilar, and Tenser Dragon #55, p. 17 From the Sorceror's Scroll: More "meat" for Greyhawk, by Gary Gygax An update on the status of the World of Greyhawk setting, along with information on the races of the Flanaess Dragon #56. p.18 From the Sorceror's Scroll: News of the North Central Flanaess, by Gary Gygax Recent events (578 CY) in and around the lands of Iuz and the Bandit Kingdoms Dragon #57, p.13 From the Sorceror's Scroll: Developments from Stonefist to South Province, by Gary Gygax Further news of the events of CY 578, focusing on the barbarian lands, the South Province, and the Iron League Dragon #59, p.24 The Great Kingdom and the Knights of Doom, by Robert J. Kuntz Statistics and levels for the Demonic Knights of Doom, as well as the politics of Rauxes Dragon #63, p.14 Where the bandits are, by Gary Gygax Map and details on the Bandit Kingdoms Dragon #63, p.15 Greyhawk's World: Events of the Eastern and Southern Flanaess, by Robert J. Kuntz Further information on the war efforts of the Great Kingdom Dragon #65, p.11 Greyhaw's World: Events of the Eastern and Southern Flanaess (II), by Robert J. Kuntz The Spindrift Isles, Nyrond, and Almor All are good fodder for ideas on the direction Gygax and Kuntz were taking Greyhawk, had they remained at the helm. Carl Sargent's GH employs many of the ideas and characters from these articles and from EGG's novels, in the FtA-era products, and Roger Moore's GH98 and the LGG era both build on these foundations.
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 18, 2004 18:50:13	Thanks- will search for the articles
#12 protonik_dup Apr 19, 2004 0:27:51	EGG still plays a 1E Greyhawk campaign to my understanding so why not ask him on Enworld when he gets back... Jason
#13 Halberkill Apr 19, 2004 11:42:52	Originally posted by protonik EGG still plays a 1E Greyhawk campaign to my understanding so why not ask him on Enworld when he gets back... Jason He doesn't like to talk about Greyhawk, except to relate old adventuring stories. Halber
#14 lincoln_hills Apr 19, 2004 14:07:15	Of course he doesn't. First off, he's a DM - and we all know that DMs are not wild about giving away their campaign secrets. Secondly, while I've no idea what caused the massive split between Gygax and his onetime buddies at TSR, I smell a lot of bad feelings that everybody involved prefers to keep buried. I presume that he won't talk about the modern Greyhawk product (even elements that he likes) because he feels as if it was stolen from him. (Those who did the 'stealing', whoever they are, are probably not even employed at WotC...) Also, of course, most folks who talk about Greyhawk now are talking about one of the third editions. It'd be like logging on to a forum about classic cars and finding that everybody else there is debating about the GPS for their car's onboard computer.
#15 OleOneEye Apr 19, 2004 18:17:58	The way I understand it, Mr. Lincoln, is that Gary Gygax had a divorce with his wife. His wife got TSR in the divorce decree. That leaves some hard feelings.
#16 protonik_dup Apr 19, 2004 19:59:15	WTF are you talking about? EGG was NOT married to Lorraine Williams. Jason
#17 zombiegleemax Apr 27, 2004 5:11:57	ok, this is information gleaned from 20 years of Con attendence, and lots of online research and some reading between the lines. There are others here who can correct errors I make and I invite them to do so. (Chatdemon, Grodog, PSmedger, EricMona, ScottyG to name a few). Gygax and Brian Blume started TSR together. Gygax the idea guy, Blume the money guy. They were business partners that probably never really got along. Around 84' or 85 the company was struggling. Gygax was focusing on California (the D&D Cartoon and the possibility of a movie), and sales were low. They rushed some projects out before they were ready (Unearthed Arcania and Temple of Elemental Evil), but it wasn't enough. Lorraine Williams and Blume were able to outmanuever Gygax and take control of the company and outst him (around '86). He showed his feelings towards them in his Gord books, (by blowing up Oerth) and they their feelings towards him (WG7, making a joke out of his famous Castle Greyhawk). TSR (as stupid as it sounds now) then followed the business policy of trying to vigorously enforce its copyrights (i.e. trying to squash all fan created work involving its copywrited material). This, of course, made it extremely cool and rebellous for all the internet nerds (no offense, but this was '88, '89) to produce a ton of fan created work to defy TSR. This lead to the Greychat area, and the creation of the Oerth Journals. It was fun for us hobbiests, but Gygax was still a professional in the gaming world. Any mention about what he would do with Greyhawk or ideas he had on development, or other things along those lines, would have subject him to liability issues. He had permission to finish his Gord novels, but after that, avoided all Greyhawk related inquiries. It was probably in a legal document somewhere that he would not discuss Greyhawk. Now that WOTC and Hasbro own Greyhawk, he could probably answer these inquiries, but he may still be under a legal prohibition, and he has been refusing to do so for 20 years and is fairly famous for his stubbornness. I doubt he will ever chime in on the subject.