Was that considered? Am I way behind here?
Because is forbidden to read and write, i think this is a good way to preserve the Athasian feel, because Wizards need to memorize and read; Sorcerers don´t need to do this.
Problem solved.
Kinda cool to see that it still lives :D
Originally posted by Fistandantilus
And about defilers being wizards and preservers being members of the sorcerer class?
Because we very, very explicitly do not want Defilers and Preservers to be two separate classes. There's a very important moral theme that's simply banished when the two types can't "cross over" ...
Because is forbidden to read and write, i think this is a good way to preserve the Athasian feel, because Wizards need to memorize and read; Sorcerers don´t need to do this.
Irrelevant. Wizards can't just pick up a spellbook and read it anyway. You must cast Read Magic to read a spell. Literacy doesn't enter into it at all.
Originally posted by flip
Because we very, very explicitly do not want Defilers and Preservers to be two separate classes. There's a very important moral theme that's simply banished when the two types can't "cross over" ...
That's fine. But why can't you just award more experience to Defilers when they use Defiling magic?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Can't do that, all classes have to level up with the same amount of XP in D&D 3e/D20.
That's fine. You misread. You have a fight, there's a defiler and a preserver fighting a CR 4 creature. The preserver gets the standard experience, while the defiler gets more experience, treating it as though he is a level lower taking out a CR 4 creature. That way, you both need 2000 experience to hit first level, but the Defiler will climb the ranks faster because he uses defiling magic. (Mind you, this is only in encounters when defiling magic is used).
That's fine. You misread. You have a fight, there's a defiler and a preserver fighting a CR 4 creature. The preserver gets the standard experience, while the defiler gets more experience, treating it as though he is a level lower taking out a CR 4 creature. That way, you both need 2000 experience to hit first level, but the Defiler will climb the ranks faster because he uses defiling magic. (Mind you, this is only in encounters when defiling magic is used).
While it does harken back to the 2e rules, it really isn't justified logically under 3e. In other words, if you can't rationalise it fluff wise, scrap it.
Defilers and preservers are learning the exact same thing: magic. The only thing that really sets one apart from the other is the gathering of energy. They learn the same spells, study the same arcane formulae, etc. Any attempts as seperating the two should be taken into account with the casting of the spell. Keep it logical. How to you logically explain how defiling to take out an enemy means your going to learn your next set of spells faster? Preferably, keep it balanced too. Beef the spellcasting of a mage who defiles, but give him a detriment in return. I use a beefed spellcasting bit (varies based on the spell itself) but give out a kind of taint to those who defile too much. Its easy, its logical, and it doesn't make my head ache; which is the most important point of all.
if using Magic ratings, you can state that a caster is treated as being 1 rating higher for purposes of casting defiler spells, or if you just want the defiler to have more ease gathering energy,
instead of actually casting better spells you could use the recharge magic system and say that the recharge time is 2 lower if you have cast spell in the defiling style.
they both work pretty well in my opinion, though the second option fits the back setting better. what do you all think?
If the spell has a saving throw, then casting it as a defiling spell allows a penalty to the save. If it has a DC, then the caster adjust the DC as if he were 1 level higher. If the spell has neither, the defiler can opt to cast it as a +1 level metamagic spell.
Of course, the more defiling the mage does, the more taint he aquires. I use a merged system from the Blight Magic, Athas.org, and Unearthed Arcana books for taint.
It works, its justifiable, and its not too time consuming.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
The gist of how I work it:
If the spell has a saving throw, then casting it as a defiling spell allows a penalty to the save. If it has a DC, then the caster adjust the DC as if he were 1 level higher. If the spell has neither, the defiler can opt to cast it as a +1 level metamagic spell.
Of course, the more defiling the mage does, the more taint he aquires. I use a merged system from the Blight Magic, Athas.org, and Unearthed Arcana books for taint.
It works, its justifiable, and its not too time consuming.
I haven't playtested Athas.org's version yet. I just thought it would be really bloody simple to just give 'em more experience. I mean, how simple is that? That's simple. ;)
Originally posted by AthasianDirge
That's fine. You misread. You have a fight, there's a defiler and a preserver fighting a CR 4 creature. The preserver gets the standard experience, while the defiler gets more experience, treating it as though he is a level lower taking out a CR 4 creature. That way, you both need 2000 experience to hit first level, but the Defiler will climb the ranks faster because he uses defiling magic. (Mind you, this is only in encounters when defiling magic is used).
No I read it right.
No matter how you do it, that still breaks D20/3e rules.
Now if you don't care about this sort of thing and want to do it anyways, more power to you. :D
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I use a merged system from the Blight Magic, Athas.org, and Unearthed Arcana books for taint.
I purchased Blight Magic, but didn't dwelve into it too deeply.
Might have to check it out now.
I mean, how simple is that? That's simple.
I can't argue with you there. I just like to work the rules around the fluff first and foremost rather than come up with complicated explanations as to why the rule is in place.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
No I read it right.
No matter how you do it, that still breaks D20/3e rules.
Now if you don't care about this sort of thing and want to do it anyways, more power to you. :D
Explain, in depth, please.
Originally posted by AthasianDirge
Explain, in depth, please.
It's in sort of the way I was doing roleplaying XP.
Everyone is suppose to get an equal share of experience when it comes to combat and such, period, that's how the XP system for D20/3e work.
Now if you want to do what I did and say to hell with it and compensate along the way, then go for it, I did and am still doing so.
In fact I took the current D20/3e XP system and chucked it out the window and am using a more story award XP system now, like that found in Star Wars D20 and Wheel of Time.
Works much better IMO.
If you want just hack n slash use what's in the core books, if you want to award roleplaying too then you're going to have to use one of the variant XP rules in the DMG or a totally different system, that simple.
I also agree with Mach, that fluff creating the mechanics is a much, much better approach IMO.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
It's in sort of the way I was doing roleplaying XP.
Everyone is suppose to get an equal share of experience when it comes to combat and such, period, that's how the XP system for D20/3e work.
Now if you want to do what I did and say to hell with it and compensate along the way, then go for it, I did and am still doing so.
In fact I took the current D20/3e XP system and chucked it out the window and am using a more story award XP system now, like that found in Star Wars D20 and Wheel of Time.
Works much better IMO.
If you want just hack n slash use what's in the core books, if you want to award roleplaying too then you're going to have to use one of the variant XP rules in the DMG or a totally different system, that simple.
I also agree with Mach, that fluff creating the mechanics is a much, much better approach IMO.
Yeah, I don't like the hack/slash system that much. I prefer to do XP for roleplaying, etc. So the system I'm invisioning WOULD fit better with the way I run games than with official 3E "doctrine." Thanks for helping clarify that.
Originally posted by AthasianDirge
That's fine. But why can't you just award more experience to Defilers when they use Defiling magic?
*sigh*
Every couple of months, somebody comes up with this and thinks it's such a great way of handling things.
It is simple, yes.
However, it misses the point, in several ways.
- It does nothing to make Defiling more powerful. It only makes defilers more powerful, and that only in the long run.
- It punishes the other party members. How? By making them advance more slowly than the defiler. In some groups, this could cause resentment (depends on your players). It will also mean that defilers will pull the level of the party up, when considering what sorts of challenge the party can manage.
- There is no functional difference between a 10th level Preserver and a 10th level defiler. Which means that the "orientation" of the wizard doesn't mean a whole lot, in the case of NPC.
- By relegating defiling to a long-term benefit, wizards must make a concious decision to become a defiler. Our major example of a fallen preserver, Sadira, made no such decision ... she simply defiled in those instances where she needed the extra power. Therre's no thematic tempation to defile "just this once", which (IMO) should always be a temptation in the face of every wizard, every time they cast a spell.
This isn't as semantical as it seems: Making Defiling powerful will make Defilers powerful. However, making Defilers powerful does not necessarily make defiling any more potent. And it's clear, from the setting text, that defiling itself is supposed to be a more potent form of magic.
But, perhaps the most damning bit is that the "give them more exp" approach is that it does nothing for NPCs.
Originally posted by flip
*sigh*
Every couple of months, somebody comes up with this and thinks it's such a great way of handling things.
Sorry to be such a nuisance.
It is simple, yes.
However, it misses the point, in several ways.
[list]
[*] It does nothing to make Defiling more powerful. It only makes defilers more powerful, and that only in the long run.
But wasn't that how it was handled in the original DS Box Set? Or am not remembering correctly? -- But this is a valid point.
[*] It punishes the other party members. How? By making them advance more slowly than the defiler. In some groups, this could cause resentment (depends on your players). It will also mean that defilers will pull the level of the party up, when considering what sorts of challenge the party can manage.
Well, I was under the impression that part of the point of defiling IS to advance more quickly. It's more powerful, in part, because of what it does for you, it gives you a leading edge. However, you DO bring up that this is a mechanical problem with 3E which I agree with. Resentment among players? If those are the type of players you have, there will be resentment no matter what. But the mechanics point is definitely true.
[*] There is no functional difference between a 10th level Preserver and a 10th level defiler. Which means that the "orientation" of the wizard doesn't mean a whole lot, in the case of NPC.
[*] By relegating defiling to a long-term benefit, wizards must make a concious decision to become a defiler. Our major example of a fallen preserver, Sadira, made no such decision ... she simply defiled in those instances where she needed the extra power. Therre's no thematic tempation to defile "just this once", which (IMO) should always be a temptation in the face of every wizard, every time they cast a spell.
[/list]
This isn't as semantical as it seems: Making Defiling powerful will make Defilers powerful. However, making Defilers powerful does not necessarily make defiling any more potent. And it's clear, from the setting text, that defiling itself is supposed to be a more potent form of magic.
But, perhaps the most damning bit is that the "give them more exp" approach is that it does nothing for NPCs.
Well, I think to some extent defiling IS a philosophical choice, isn't it? You decide at some point, whether in the heat of battle or not, that it'd just be easier to defile because it serves the purpose. Right? -- Again, your points are valid. It's obvious you've been throught his. I hadn't seen it before and I'm sorry that I had to rehash something that was a dead subject.
But wasn't that how it was handled in the original DS Box Set? Or am not remembering correctly?
Yes, in fact it was handled that way. Defilers did indeed advance more quickly with their own seperate experience table. So did illusionists, so lets just make some new advancement tables for everything. Thieves did too, so did bards. I'm pretty sure fighters did too.
Sorry, not trying to poke fun at the logic, but the arguement does break down a bit there with trying to fully maintain 2e concepts in 3e. Some aspects had to be nixed for it to even be a 3e conversion, otherwise, its simply 2e (with all its headaches) all over again.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Yes, in fact it was handled that way. Defilers did indeed advance more quickly with their own seperate experience table. So did illusionists, so lets just make some new advancement tables for everything. Thieves did too, so did bards. I'm pretty sure fighters did too.
Sorry, not trying to poke fun at the logic, but the arguement does break down a bit there with trying to fully maintain 2e concepts in 3e. Some aspects had to be nixed for it to even be a 3e conversion, otherwise, its simply 2e (with all its headaches) all over again.
I know that all the others had different experience tables, which isn't what I was attempting to imply. I was simply saying a very simple alternative would be to give them extra experience, which flip has shot down with very solid reasons. For all intents and purposes I consider the topic closed. I was just pointing out that part of my justification for thinking of going that route is that it was handled as such in 2e. They didn't make magic any stronger, even IF that's how it read in the Prism Pentad.
They didn't make magic any stronger, even IF that's how it read in the Prism Pentad.
True. Originally I was a bit bummed that there wasn't more to defiling beyond a lame initiative penalty if you were caught in the radius, something that did change in novel format.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
True. Originally I was a bit bummed that there wasn't more to defiling beyond a lame initiative penalty if you were caught in the radius, something that did change in novel format.
Yeah, there were plenty of things that didn't work between the books and the setting though. One of the reasons I was whole-heartedly looking forward to DS3e was that I think the currenty d20 System has way more room to work with things like defiling.
just to throw some more dirt on the grave of this idea, it's worth pointing out that a defiler of a given level will actually by weaker than a preserver of the same level. the defiler will have gained his levels faster, true--but he'll have gained less loot, meaning less magic items to round himself out.
Right, that's pointed out with the balance issue.
But wasn't that how it was handled in the original DS Box Set? Or am not remembering correctly? -- But this is a valid point.
There are some fundamental design principles of D&D 3E/3.5 vs D20 you need to know about in order to understand why allowing the defiler faster level advancement breaks the system. Flip has given you a number of examples, but the principles themselves can be found in the DS3 FAQ:
http://www.sederqvist.com/ao/3e.htm