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Wow--Turrosh Mak

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
glennl
Apr 19, 2004 9:05:23 Ok, so I am looking back at the old Slavers book, you know the last one they printed not the old modules, and I read the "Secret" of Turrosh Mak. Wow, didn't see that coming. Was I the only one who missed that before? Was that his identity from the begining or was that just the authors perogotive. I guess what I am asking is since I am going to try and run this in the current 3.5 setting and the book takes you to 591 CY, is it true? Anyone who knows what I am talking about and can help would be great. Thanks.
#2
bdpenney
Apr 19, 2004 11:22:45 Authors perogotive, had to be.

Considering the nature of the Pomarj and such, I could never stomach the whole idea of Theg Narlot playing up the part of an orcish despot.

Sorry, but someone who unifies the Pomarj would have to do it via sheer brute power and force of will. Narlot may be able to bluff his way a bit, but to get the whole of the Pomarj under his banner he'd have to be a heck of a lot more than he is.

Sometime this or next week I'll be posting my own take on the rise of Turrosh Mak (part II of my History of the Pomarj and Turrosh Mak project) and I'll be presenting a Turrosh Mak who couldn't be more different from the hesitant Theg Narlot...
#3
cwslyclgh
Apr 19, 2004 16:45:02 here is what Sean had to say about the question: (I asked if he decided that Mak and Nerlot were the same or if it was discussed before hand durring the development of the book).

::blows air between his teeth::

I honestly can't remember for sure. I remember talking with Erik Mona about Turrosh Mak and how he probably is a fake identity of another person. Whether or not Erik and I came up with the Turrosh = Theg idea together or if it was just one of us, I don't remember. :P I'll ask Erik.

If he gets a response from Erik I will let you know what it is.... (unless of course Erik happens by this thread and answers himself).
#4
Brom_Blackforge
Apr 26, 2004 8:35:55 I just got the Slavers supplement, so I was able to look at the stats listed in it for Theg Narlot/Turrosh Mak. When I did, I noticed something.

Slavers lists Narlot/Mak as a Lawful Evil fighter 10/assassin 12. However, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer lists Mak as a Neutral Evil fighter 16. The two are inconsistent, and there's no way around it. So, looks like you can pretty much do whatever you like with Turrosh Mak.

Personally, I think I'm going to use Theg Narlot as a supporter of Turrosh Mak, a power behind the throne. (Of course, Mak is no dumb brute, and he knows that Narlot thinks of him as a puppet, but Mak has his own ideas about that.) In part, this is necessitated by the fact that the PCs in my campaign have already killed a half-brother of the Despot (which requires that Mak be a real person, and not just an assumed identity).
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 27, 2004 13:26:51 IF Mak is to be just a fake name of a classic character, He should be Quij, not Theg Narlot. Mighty enough to defeat a troll in single combat, Brave enough to destroy Robilar's flying carpet, he is the greatest Orc in Greyhawk lore. Give the Horn of the Pomarj, and he could be the one behind all these troubles.
#6
kelanenprinceofswords
Apr 29, 2004 18:56:35 My vote goes to Rostoff's candidate - Quij for despot of the Pomarj!
#7
Mortepierre
Apr 30, 2004 1:30:33
Originally posted by rostoff
Brave enough to destroy Robilar's flying carpet, he is the greatest Orc in Greyhawk lore. Give the Horn of the Pomarj, and he could be the one behind all these troubles.

You mean dumbest surely. He made a poncho out of the carpet because he was tired of waiting in the rain! :D

I bet Rob would love to get his hands on his old sidekick. In the Bright Desert, he sure could have used the carpet!
#8
erik_mona
Apr 30, 2004 14:41:48 Quij is 50% more orc than we need, unfortunately.

--Erik
#9
lincoln_hills
Apr 30, 2004 15:24:53 The intrepid Quij... Born from an argument (between Gygax and Kuntz) over Scrabble, only known orc to have soloed an ogre as a 1st-level warrior, long-time henchman of Robilar, and - in his one documented act of foresight - no longer employed by Robilar (thanks, I think, to the Flying Carpet Incident) by the time the Great Signing disaster came around...

Hm. I'll have to make use of the feller. I'm thinking NE (N tendencies) orc Warrior 4/Barbarian 3/Tribal Protector 3... with a few of his master's warrior-feats, plus Luck of Heroes (which I'm only settling for because they don't have a feat named "Dumb Luck, Emphasis on DUMB".)
#10
zombiegleemax
May 02, 2004 9:46:47
Originally posted by Mortepierre
You mean dumbest surely. He made a poncho out of the carpet because he was tired of waiting in the rain! :D

I bet Rob would love to get his hands on his old sidekick. In the Bright Desert, he sure could have used the carpet!

You get left outside the temple, so there will be no experience or treasure for you. You are guarding Masters flying carpet and his GRYFFINS. Now if master has GRYFFINS as well as a Green Dragon or three, does he really need a Carpet of Flying??

Obviously, Quij said "**** Master, I need a Poncho." When Master has the temper and fighting ability of Robilar, I consider that Brave, not dumb. But I certainly understand the other view point.

Actually, despite what it says in the intro to ToEE, I've read that Big Z took a liking to Robilar once he freed her and She took him to the Abyss with her when she fled the temple area. If that is true, there is no telling how long Quij waited or where he went when Robilar didn't come back.

Orcs life expectancy is what 40-50 years? Since Mr. "Official Voice" Mona says he's 50% to much orc to be Mak, how does this sound:

Your party has been gathered in a back room in Narwell. None other than the grizzled veteran Turin Deathstalker enters.
"General Quij of the First Army of the Pomarj has been dispatched to The Bright Kingdom to negotiate a treaty between those two lands realms. The Treaty will spell out each Kingdoms role in the conquest of Greyhawk. You must intercept him and make sure this agreement does not happen, by whatever means necessary."

I think I have the start for a high level campaign in the area.
#11
zombiegleemax
May 02, 2004 9:46:47 Double Post
#12
cwslyclgh
May 03, 2004 13:36:30 finaly got a response from Sean on the subject.

He (Erik Mona) remembers thinking of it and posting a teaser on some site (basically "remind me later to talk about my Turrosh Mak/slavers hypothesis") but he's not sure he specifically discussed it with me, and admits that it's not so unreasonable that I couldn't of thought of it on my own. So I'm going to say it an idea we both had, either independently or jointly.

#13
glennl
May 04, 2004 10:53:34
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
finaly got a response from Sean on the subject.

Thanks for keeping with this. It is most appriciated.:D
#14
Brom_Blackforge
May 04, 2004 13:24:32 If Erik Mona shares responsibiity as an originator of the Theg Narlot as Turrosh Mak idea, then why was it contradicted in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which Erik had a hand in writing?
#15
cwslyclgh
May 04, 2004 13:36:47
If Erik Mona shares responsibiity as an originator of the Theg Narlot as Turrosh Mak idea, then why was it contradicted in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which Erik had a hand in writing?

maybe it is not... maybe they just decided to change theg-nerlots alignment and class levels... NPC's have been rewritten before and NE makes more sense then LE considering the change to orc alignment between the editions (as for the class change, well Theg was always more of a fighter then an assassin anyway, and the LGG doesn't use any of the PrC from the DMG :Shrugs:

or perhaps Erik didn't write that part of the LGG, and the person who did hadn't done all thier homework... or maybe the editor changed it for some unknown reason (perhaps lack of homework doing again). there are countless possible reasons for the seeming descrepincy.

But rest assured that Erik did have the same idea at some point before Slavers was written, although he like Sean does not remember if they discussed it at all... Erik told me as much during a greytalk chat a couple of weeks ago. I just waited for Sean to respond before posting what I already knew :P
#16
Brom_Blackforge
May 05, 2004 11:42:23 If I wasn't clear about this, I apologize, but I wasn't trying to suggest that Erik didn't share the Theg Narlot/Turrosh Mak idea. I just wondered why the details I cited were different in the two products.
#17
lincoln_hills
May 05, 2004 12:16:49 Sloppy editing.

No, that's glib. I'll clarify. When you're designing a book meant to contain all the vital information about a campaign world's climate, geography, history, calendar, nations, customs, races, religions, power groups and coinage, sometimes you miss a detail or two. Just because Mona worked on both projects doesn't mean he was given the "Turrosh Mak" section of both projects: and even editors make mistakes. (As anybody who's read the recent WotC releases knows. Sorry, that was a cheap shot.)
#18
erik_mona
May 06, 2004 15:30:54 I'm fairly certain that the LGG's production synched up poorly with the Slavers! production, so that the final text of the Slavers book was available to us at the very end of the LGG's writing period. Basically, lots of people goofed, and the people who could have caught it at the last minute did not do so. There's a _ton_ of material in the LGG, so it's not terribly surprising that an error like that slipped into the book.

It's worth noting that we got the alignment and level from the FtA stat card. Obviously, to make the Theg Narlot thing work, they changed that for Slavers, but at least we didn't pull the info from thin air.

--Erik
#19
Brom_Blackforge
May 07, 2004 10:52:28 Personally, it doesn't bother me to have more than one version appearing in an official product. While that might make it more difficult for someone who's trying to decipher what is and is not "canon," alternate versions can give us more options as DMs. (Not that we're not free to create something completely different on our own anyway, but one of the alternate versions might spark a new idea that we might not have come up with on our own.)
#20
glennl
May 07, 2004 12:59:25
Originally posted by Erik Mona
I'm fairly certain that the LGG's production synched up poorly with the Slavers! production, so that the final text of the Slavers book was available to us at the very end of the LGG's writing period. --Erik

Thanks for taking this seriously and trying to answer my original question. It is pretty cool to get a response from an actuall author of the books! I am a little confused as I have never really looked into things of this nature before. Isn't LGG a 3rd ed. book and Slavers! a 2nd ed. book? How were they done at the same time? Or maybe there is information or a book I am missing. I am sure with the volumes of information in the countless books a few details get mixed up so that I understand. I was mostly just trying to decide if I should go with the fighter or the Thelg version for my campain. I know I can do what I want, I just wanted to stay as close to Canon as possible. Thanks.
#21
cwslyclgh
May 07, 2004 13:30:04 Slavers came out at the very end of the 2e era, while the LGG came out at the very begenning of the 3e era, considering how long it takes to make a book there is not any descepicny with the idea that they might have overlapped.
#22
zombiegleemax
May 11, 2004 21:05:48 I've enjoyed bdpenney's narrative take on Turrosh Mak. Similarly I found Jeff McKillop's old versions (search the GreyTalk Archives) very interesting.

On GreyTalk, I've suggested that Turrosh Mak was the protege of Theg Narlot -- not quite as far-traveled and erudite as McKillop describes, but not your typical euroz bastard. Taking the FtA card and not liking SKR's suggestion, IMC Turrosh Mak was a warrior of the Cracked Skull tribe who became a henchman of Theg Narlot and rose to great heights as a fighter.

Additionally, Turrosh Mak recovered the Ring of the Pomarj though he turned it towards ends that its creator abhorred. However, ultimately, I believe that Theg Narlot succumbed to pressures reasserted by his "handlers" of the Scarlet Brotherhood. One night, after Turrosh Mak had refused the vermillion cloaked monks once too many times, Theg Narlot assassinated his former student. Narlot then assumed Turrosh Mak's identity.

In my mind, this version explains the incredible early gains achieved by the Great Despot, who was a strategic genius in addition to being a formidable fighter. After his death, however, Theg Narlot as Turrosh Mak could only hold onto the gains but not truly inspire the tribes to conquer more...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 glennl Apr 19, 2004 9:05:23	Ok, so I am looking back at the old Slavers book, you know the last one they printed not the old modules, and I read the "Secret" of Turrosh Mak. Wow, didn't see that coming. Was I the only one who missed that before? Was that his identity from the begining or was that just the authors perogotive. I guess what I am asking is since I am going to try and run this in the current 3.5 setting and the book takes you to 591 CY, is it true? Anyone who knows what I am talking about and can help would be great. Thanks.
#2 bdpenney Apr 19, 2004 11:22:45	Authors perogotive, had to be. Considering the nature of the Pomarj and such, I could never stomach the whole idea of Theg Narlot playing up the part of an orcish despot. Sorry, but someone who unifies the Pomarj would have to do it via sheer brute power and force of will. Narlot may be able to bluff his way a bit, but to get the whole of the Pomarj under his banner he'd have to be a heck of a lot more than he is. Sometime this or next week I'll be posting my own take on the rise of Turrosh Mak (part II of my History of the Pomarj and Turrosh Mak project) and I'll be presenting a Turrosh Mak who couldn't be more different from the hesitant Theg Narlot...
#3 cwslyclgh Apr 19, 2004 16:45:02	here is what Sean had to say about the question: (I asked if he decided that Mak and Nerlot were the same or if it was discussed before hand durring the development of the book). ::blows air between his teeth:: I honestly can't remember for sure. I remember talking with Erik Mona about Turrosh Mak and how he probably is a fake identity of another person. Whether or not Erik and I came up with the Turrosh = Theg idea together or if it was just one of us, I don't remember. :P I'll ask Erik. If he gets a response from Erik I will let you know what it is.... (unless of course Erik happens by this thread and answers himself).
#4 Brom_Blackforge Apr 26, 2004 8:35:55	I just got the Slavers supplement, so I was able to look at the stats listed in it for Theg Narlot/Turrosh Mak. When I did, I noticed something. Slavers lists Narlot/Mak as a Lawful Evil fighter 10/assassin 12. However, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer lists Mak as a Neutral Evil fighter 16. The two are inconsistent, and there's no way around it. So, looks like you can pretty much do whatever you like with Turrosh Mak. Personally, I think I'm going to use Theg Narlot as a supporter of Turrosh Mak, a power behind the throne. (Of course, Mak is no dumb brute, and he knows that Narlot thinks of him as a puppet, but Mak has his own ideas about that.) In part, this is necessitated by the fact that the PCs in my campaign have already killed a half-brother of the Despot (which requires that Mak be a real person, and not just an assumed identity).
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 27, 2004 13:26:51	IF Mak is to be just a fake name of a classic character, He should be Quij, not Theg Narlot. Mighty enough to defeat a troll in single combat, Brave enough to destroy Robilar's flying carpet, he is the greatest Orc in Greyhawk lore. Give the Horn of the Pomarj, and he could be the one behind all these troubles.
#6 kelanenprinceofswords Apr 29, 2004 18:56:35	My vote goes to Rostoff's candidate - Quij for despot of the Pomarj!
#7 Mortepierre Apr 30, 2004 1:30:33	Originally posted by rostoff Brave enough to destroy Robilar's flying carpet, he is the greatest Orc in Greyhawk lore. Give the Horn of the Pomarj, and he could be the one behind all these troubles. You mean dumbest surely. He made a poncho out of the carpet because he was tired of waiting in the rain! :D I bet Rob would love to get his hands on his old sidekick. In the Bright Desert, he sure could have used the carpet!
#8 erik_mona Apr 30, 2004 14:41:48	Quij is 50% more orc than we need, unfortunately. --Erik
#9 lincoln_hills Apr 30, 2004 15:24:53	The intrepid Quij... Born from an argument (between Gygax and Kuntz) over Scrabble, only known orc to have soloed an ogre as a 1st-level warrior, long-time henchman of Robilar, and - in his one documented act of foresight - no longer employed by Robilar (thanks, I think, to the Flying Carpet Incident) by the time the Great Signing disaster came around... Hm. I'll have to make use of the feller. I'm thinking NE (N tendencies) orc Warrior 4/Barbarian 3/Tribal Protector 3... with a few of his master's warrior-feats, plus Luck of Heroes (which I'm only settling for because they don't have a feat named "Dumb Luck, Emphasis on DUMB".)
#10 zombiegleemax May 02, 2004 9:46:47	Originally posted by Mortepierre You mean dumbest surely. He made a poncho out of the carpet because he was tired of waiting in the rain! :D I bet Rob would love to get his hands on his old sidekick. In the Bright Desert, he sure could have used the carpet! You get left outside the temple, so there will be no experience or treasure for you. You are guarding Masters flying carpet and his GRYFFINS. Now if master has GRYFFINS as well as a Green Dragon or three, does he really need a Carpet of Flying?? Obviously, Quij said "**** Master, I need a Poncho." When Master has the temper and fighting ability of Robilar, I consider that Brave, not dumb. But I certainly understand the other view point. Actually, despite what it says in the intro to ToEE, I've read that Big Z took a liking to Robilar once he freed her and She took him to the Abyss with her when she fled the temple area. If that is true, there is no telling how long Quij waited or where he went when Robilar didn't come back. Orcs life expectancy is what 40-50 years? Since Mr. "Official Voice" Mona says he's 50% to much orc to be Mak, how does this sound: Your party has been gathered in a back room in Narwell. None other than the grizzled veteran Turin Deathstalker enters. "General Quij of the First Army of the Pomarj has been dispatched to The Bright Kingdom to negotiate a treaty between those two lands realms. The Treaty will spell out each Kingdoms role in the conquest of Greyhawk. You must intercept him and make sure this agreement does not happen, by whatever means necessary." I think I have the start for a high level campaign in the area.
#11 zombiegleemax May 02, 2004 9:46:47	Double Post
#12 cwslyclgh May 03, 2004 13:36:30	finaly got a response from Sean on the subject. He (Erik Mona) remembers thinking of it and posting a teaser on some site (basically "remind me later to talk about my Turrosh Mak/slavers hypothesis") but he's not sure he specifically discussed it with me, and admits that it's not so unreasonable that I couldn't of thought of it on my own. So I'm going to say it an idea we both had, either independently or jointly.
#13 glennl May 04, 2004 10:53:34	Originally posted by cwslyclgh finaly got a response from Sean on the subject. Thanks for keeping with this. It is most appriciated.:D
#14 Brom_Blackforge May 04, 2004 13:24:32	If Erik Mona shares responsibiity as an originator of the Theg Narlot as Turrosh Mak idea, then why was it contradicted in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which Erik had a hand in writing?
#15 cwslyclgh May 04, 2004 13:36:47	If Erik Mona shares responsibiity as an originator of the Theg Narlot as Turrosh Mak idea, then why was it contradicted in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which Erik had a hand in writing? maybe it is not... maybe they just decided to change theg-nerlots alignment and class levels... NPC's have been rewritten before and NE makes more sense then LE considering the change to orc alignment between the editions (as for the class change, well Theg was always more of a fighter then an assassin anyway, and the LGG doesn't use any of the PrC from the DMG :Shrugs: or perhaps Erik didn't write that part of the LGG, and the person who did hadn't done all thier homework... or maybe the editor changed it for some unknown reason (perhaps lack of homework doing again). there are countless possible reasons for the seeming descrepincy. But rest assured that Erik did have the same idea at some point before Slavers was written, although he like Sean does not remember if they discussed it at all... Erik told me as much during a greytalk chat a couple of weeks ago. I just waited for Sean to respond before posting what I already knew :P
#16 Brom_Blackforge May 05, 2004 11:42:23	If I wasn't clear about this, I apologize, but I wasn't trying to suggest that Erik didn't share the Theg Narlot/Turrosh Mak idea. I just wondered why the details I cited were different in the two products.
#17 lincoln_hills May 05, 2004 12:16:49	Sloppy editing. No, that's glib. I'll clarify. When you're designing a book meant to contain all the vital information about a campaign world's climate, geography, history, calendar, nations, customs, races, religions, power groups and coinage, sometimes you miss a detail or two. Just because Mona worked on both projects doesn't mean he was given the "Turrosh Mak" section of both projects: and even editors make mistakes. (As anybody who's read the recent WotC releases knows. Sorry, that was a cheap shot.)
#18 erik_mona May 06, 2004 15:30:54	I'm fairly certain that the LGG's production synched up poorly with the Slavers! production, so that the final text of the Slavers book was available to us at the very end of the LGG's writing period. Basically, lots of people goofed, and the people who could have caught it at the last minute did not do so. There's a _ton_ of material in the LGG, so it's not terribly surprising that an error like that slipped into the book. It's worth noting that we got the alignment and level from the FtA stat card. Obviously, to make the Theg Narlot thing work, they changed that for Slavers, but at least we didn't pull the info from thin air. --Erik
#19 Brom_Blackforge May 07, 2004 10:52:28	Personally, it doesn't bother me to have more than one version appearing in an official product. While that might make it more difficult for someone who's trying to decipher what is and is not "canon," alternate versions can give us more options as DMs. (Not that we're not free to create something completely different on our own anyway, but one of the alternate versions might spark a new idea that we might not have come up with on our own.)
#20 glennl May 07, 2004 12:59:25	Originally posted by Erik Mona I'm fairly certain that the LGG's production synched up poorly with the Slavers! production, so that the final text of the Slavers book was available to us at the very end of the LGG's writing period. --Erik Thanks for taking this seriously and trying to answer my original question. It is pretty cool to get a response from an actuall author of the books! I am a little confused as I have never really looked into things of this nature before. Isn't LGG a 3rd ed. book and Slavers! a 2nd ed. book? How were they done at the same time? Or maybe there is information or a book I am missing. I am sure with the volumes of information in the countless books a few details get mixed up so that I understand. I was mostly just trying to decide if I should go with the fighter or the Thelg version for my campain. I know I can do what I want, I just wanted to stay as close to Canon as possible. Thanks.
#21 cwslyclgh May 07, 2004 13:30:04	Slavers came out at the very end of the 2e era, while the LGG came out at the very begenning of the 3e era, considering how long it takes to make a book there is not any descepicny with the idea that they might have overlapped.
#22 zombiegleemax May 11, 2004 21:05:48	I've enjoyed bdpenney's narrative take on Turrosh Mak. Similarly I found Jeff McKillop's old versions (search the GreyTalk Archives) very interesting. On GreyTalk, I've suggested that Turrosh Mak was the protege of Theg Narlot -- not quite as far-traveled and erudite as McKillop describes, but not your typical euroz bastard. Taking the FtA card and not liking SKR's suggestion, IMC Turrosh Mak was a warrior of the Cracked Skull tribe who became a henchman of Theg Narlot and rose to great heights as a fighter. Additionally, Turrosh Mak recovered the Ring of the Pomarj though he turned it towards ends that its creator abhorred. However, ultimately, I believe that Theg Narlot succumbed to pressures reasserted by his "handlers" of the Scarlet Brotherhood. One night, after Turrosh Mak had refused the vermillion cloaked monks once too many times, Theg Narlot assassinated his former student. Narlot then assumed Turrosh Mak's identity. In my mind, this version explains the incredible early gains achieved by the Great Despot, who was a strategic genius in addition to being a formidable fighter. After his death, however, Theg Narlot as Turrosh Mak could only hold onto the gains but not truly inspire the tribes to conquer more...