In the update for the Epic Level Handbook it has two classes of dragons: Standard dragons and epic dragons. Standard being of course the gem, chromatic, and metalic dragons and the epic dragons be force and prismatic dragons.
The book states when advancing standard dragons beyond great wyrm, use "this" set of rules. When advancing epic dragons use "that" set of rules. Then it says when a standard dragon reaches Colossal+, use "that" set of stats.
So my question is...both Malys and Skie are Colossal+...so to accurately figure out their virtual age categories, does one use the rules for Advanced Dragons until they reach Colossal+ then use the rules for Epic Dragons there on out? Or do you keep using the Advanced Dragon rules for everything but use the Epic Dragons section for determining size, damage, etc.?
CLARIFICATION: (I think this is a better way of asking the question)
Basically...I just want to know if chromatic dragons always use the rules for Advanced Dragons no matter how big they get, or do they switch over to the Epic Dragons rules once they reach Colossal+?
Originally posted by Brimstone
(I think this is a better way of asking the question)
Basically...I just want to know if chromatic dragons always use the rules for Advanced Dragons no matter how big they get, or do they switch over to the Epic Dragons rules once they reach Colossal+?
As far as I am aware, there are no epic dragons on Krynn (no force or prismatic dragons, etc). All dragons, even the Dragon Overlords, are standard dragons and follow the advanced dragon rules given in the Age of Mortals sourcebook. An epic dragon is a separate species altogether, and thus the metallic and chromatic dragons would never be classed as one of them.
Cheers,
Cam
Thanks, Cam!
One additional question, though. Do dragons still get free skill points in Spellcraft equal to their number of HD like they did in 3.0? Or do they no longer get it in 3.5? And if they don't, is it considered a class skill or a cross-class skill.
Thanks!
Originally posted by Brimstone
One additional question, though. Do dragons still get free skill points in Spellcraft equal to their number of HD like they did in 3.0? Or do they no longer get it in 3.5? And if they don't, is it considered a class skill or a cross-class skill.
No, they don't. Do you have a copy of the MM 3.5? Each dragon has three class skills in addition to those which are class skills for all true dragons.
Dragon class skills are: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device.
Green dragon class skills are: Bluff, Hide, Move Silently.
It may be that Beryl's Spellcraft ranks are too high depending on what the writers knew at the time of the book's publication of 3.5 dragon rules. A lot of 3.5 wasn't decided until the last minute, which is why some of the books close to its release are a little off in places.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It may be that Beryl's Spellcraft ranks are too high depending on what the writers knew at the time of the book's publication of 3.5 dragon rules. A lot of 3.5 wasn't decided until the last minute, which is why some of the books close to its release are a little off in places.
No, I don't have the 3.5 MM...just the 3.5 MM SRD, which didn't mention the Spellcraft skill, but I wasn't sure if that meant it was left out because it didn't change, or was it left out of the SRD because it is no longer a dragon skill.
Yeah...Beryl's SPellcraft was too high even with the 3.0. She has a +65, I think. (and +7 Int)...which means she had 58 ranks which is 11 more that she should be able to have (at 47 HD).
Yeah...Beryl's stats are really messed up (as far as 3.5 is concerned). But now I know that not only are the other Dragon Overlords wrong, but so are Brine, Dhamon, and Razor (and any other dragons, apparently, but I checked those three last night, and they still use the Spellcraft ranks = HD).
So...since Spellcraft is not a class skill for Green dragons (and neither is swim, which is odd since they have water breathing)...anyway, at 47 HD, the most ranks Beryl can have in Spellcraft is 25, correct? (she has 451 skill points to spend if you go Age by Age or 650 if you do the {6 + 7} x {47 + 3} equation from 3.5 MM SRD).
What do you think?
(sorry I'm being such a pain in the butt about this)
Originally posted by Brimstone
What do you think?
Don't forget synergy bonuses from skills which have 5 or more ranks. Also, in many cases the easy way of determining skills for high-level creatures is just to take a number of skills equal to the creature's skill points per level + the creature's Intelligence modifier and dump a number of ranks in them equal to their HD+3. Then add ability score modifiers and synergy bonuses.
Because of the widespread use of magic by dragons in the setting, it would not be an altogether bad house rule for them to have the Spellcraft skill as a class skill, much as they did in 3.0. It seems odd, for example, that the black, green, and shadow dragons don't have it as a class skill despite the notes in the DLCS and AoM that portray them all as proficient spellcasters.
Cheers,
Cam
2) Eventually WotC will release MM errata, and that should put Spellcraft back into the class skill list for all dragons, like it was in 3.0 (I wrote them specifically about this, and they agreed that it should be a class skill for all dragons).
In the Draconomicon, it also points out that dragons gain bonus skill points retroactively when their Intelligence increases, so that no matter what age they are their skill points equal (Skill points + Int) x (HD + 3).
Long story short - dragon stat blocks are a very, very difficult thing to proof read. I read over the ones I did dozens of times and sometimes came out with different answers, even when I used the short cut method. It's a pain in the neck, but there are some things more deserving of errata than them.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Don't forget synergy bonuses from skills which have 5 or more ranks.
Crud and damnit. I forgot about that...isn't it like +2 for the other skills it mentions? (I think that is what it is for Star Wars).
2) Eventually WotC will release MM errata, and that should put Spellcraft back into the class skill list for all dragons, like it was in 3.0 (I wrote them specifically about this, and they agreed that it should be a class skill for all dragons).
So...it's now going to be a class skill and not free skill points? (well, that's better than a cross-class skill)
Works for me (but makes all the other dragons wrong, too...damnit, why couldn't they just have left that one alone, they didn't change any of the other skills)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
In the Draconomicon, it also points out that dragons gain bonus skill points retroactively when their Intelligence increases, so that no matter what age they are their skill points equal (Skill points + Int) x (HD + 3).
That simplifies things greatly!
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Long story short - dragon stat blocks are a very, very difficult thing to proof read.
That is the understatement of the year. They're just so powerful and have so much stuff...it's really easy to miss something over and over and over again (I know I have)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I read over the ones I did dozens of times and sometimes came out with different answers, even when I used the short cut method. It's a pain in the neck, but there are some things more deserving of errata than them.
I know...and I was actually going to mention that they're Dragon Overlords (ie special dragons) so really, the stats could be used as is...but if one wanted them to match the advanced dragon rules of the Epic Handbook, here's what they should be.
Now, it's almost become an issue of me being stuborn and wanting to get it right. I think it deserves to be right (and it's unfortunate that the dragon rules changed so much from 3.0 to 3.5)
I just want to do it right, I guess.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, they don't. Do you have a copy of the MM 3.5?
You'll be happy to know that I'll be getting the 3.5 core rulebooks this afternoon.
I wish I'd had the money to get them when they were 60% off on Amazon...but 30% is good enough, I guess. (I get a special carrying box with them too)
AoM says advanced dragons gain an extra feat for every 4 HD like in the MM.
Draconomicon says advanced dragons gain an extra feat for every 4 HD like in the MM.
The MM 3.0 says dragons gain a new feat every 4 HD.
The MM 3.5 says dragons gain a new feat every 3 HD.
The Epic Level Handbook 3.5 SRD says advanced dragons gain a new feat every 3 HD like in the MM.
So...the question is...which is right? There's no errata for the MM 3.5 yet, nor the Draconomicon. So the question is...which is right? 3 HD or 4 HD?
(remember, although MM 3.5 and ELH 3.5 SRD are the new rules...the Draconomicon is a newer book...so maybe the "3 HD" was a mistake...like leaving out the Spellcraft skill)
If something (let's specifically say a feat)...if a feat is not in the PHB, DMG, MM, DLCS, AoM, or any subsequent Dragonlance RPG book...it cannot be mentioned by name in an SP product, correct?
Or could I, for instance, write the stat block for Beryl, and in the feats section, write down feats that only appear in say the Draconomicon. Or perhaps her three allowed Epic feats which would most likely not be found in a core rule book. Or perhaps the Improved Spell Capacity feat. (now that I think about it...it is mentioned in AoM...but none of the Overlords have it as a feat).
I guess...how does the OGL and d20 liscense work? Is Dragonlance special because it's a specific WotC liscensed product? What can, and cannot be mentioned?
Thanks guys!
Originally posted by Brimstone
I guess...how does the OGL and d20 liscense work? Is Dragonlance special because it's a specific WotC liscensed product? What can, and cannot be mentioned?
Dragonlance is a WOTC Licensed Property, and Sovereign Press could potentially use material from any WOTC product so long as this is approved by WOTC, etc. The shadow dragon in AoM is one example. But you should never assume that if a feat exists in another product like the Draconomicon that it could be used in an SP product's errata. In fact, you shouldn't rewrite Beryl's stat block with new and extra feats that weren't in it before, since it's the job of errata to find and correct mistakes, not introduce new elements to existing content.
You might point out that Beryl should have one or more extra feats, but don't choose feats for her.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
You might point out that Beryl should have one or more extra feats, but don't choose feats for her.
That's exactly what I was thinking I should do. (she's missing 4, if I remember correctly)...although correcting the skills is trickier. Luckily...it's all unofficial. heh heh
Although I think it's alright to say "add X number of Improved Spell Capacity feats" since it's mentioned specifically in the Dragon Overlord section that they should get that.
Also, it's probably okay to add Create Skull Totem and Draconic Vampirisim...since both of those are necessary for Beryl to be an advanced dragon in the DL rules, don't you think?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Also, it's probably okay to add Create Skull Totem and Draconic Vampirisim...since both of those are necessary for Beryl to be an advanced dragon in the DL rules, don't you think?
They are, but they're not described in the DLCS. Given Beryl's stat block is in the DLCS and not the AoM, you can't even assume folks have more than just the core book.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
They are, but they're not described in the DLCS. Given Beryl's stat block is in the DLCS and not the AoM, you can't even assume folks have more than just the core book.
Well...that's just dumb.
I think it's a disservice to short change Beryl like that just because of protocal. But, like I said, luckily it's not a WotC errata (of course, I don't ever expect to see one from them...DL gaming seems to be nothing more than a proverbial red-headed step child to them these days...no offense Cam, personally, I love red-heads :D). Anyway, so I can add those in.
But, I was just curious as to how it would be worked officially. Thanks!