Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Shei-Nad Apr 20, 2004 12:42:40	Hey. I have a few completetly unrelated questions, all related to Dark Sun. Instead of having threads for each, in case of short answers, I'll post all of those I think of here now. 1- Why has the Inconsistencies threads stopped? Those were fun, dawnstealer. IMO anyways. 2- Obsidian and Flint weapons are described in many places in the Dark Sun setting. However, it seems to me it would be pretty hard to craft an obsidian greatsword, for example, because of the lenght and proportionally small width of the blade, which would probably have the weapon break on most impacts. Short swords and small weapon heads would pretty much be as big as it could get for me. Anybody knows if it would actually be feasable to craft an obsidian greatsword that wouldn't break after 3-4 hits? 3- Sun clerics were said to be evil in 2e, but in the pentad, caelum seems something like lawful neutral, given he acted kind of good, but was ready to sacrifice the gladiators trapped in the gorge with his lava river (would that not be a lava spell anyways?). Also, he turns the undead, not rebukes them. And in athas.org, any element seems to allow all alignments. How do you handle this? hmm... can't think of the others now.
#2 dawnstealer Apr 20, 2004 13:20:33	I'll take these: 1) Why has the Inconsistencies threads stopped? People stopped posting them. I put a thread up for all the (valid) ones submitted. If you, or anyone else, has more, post them in the Inconsistencies thread and I'll post the question. 2) Anybody knows if it would actually be feasable to craft an obsidian greatsword that wouldn't break after 3-4 hits? This was something I always saw as a problem, especially since I've actually done some flint-knapping before. The thing that makes obsidian and flint such a great weapon is the manner in which it breaks, which creates extremely sharp edges (orders of magnitudes better than a razor blade). Of course, they're both brittle, so anything larger than, say, a short sword, would be pretty fragile. To build anything bigger, you would need to either implement it into a wooden casing (ala maquahuitl) or have magical obsidian (blood obsidian?). 3) And in athas.org, any element seems to allow all alignments. How do you handle this? I allow them to be any alignment. I figure that while the element they serve might have ulterior motives, that doesn't necessarily mean the cleric does. That's my take, at least.
#3 elonarc Apr 20, 2004 14:04:28	Before EAFW was published and with it, para-elementals introduced (aside from the PP), cults of elememtal fire often had something to do with the sun. Ivory Triangle is an example for this (the fire cult in Nibenay). Hmm...I just realized...this is no answer and no question...just take it as a contribution to the topic.
#4 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 20, 2004 15:37:27	Originally posted by Dawnstealer 3) I allow them to be any alignment. I figure that while the element they serve might have ulterior motives, that doesn't necessarily mean the cleric does. That's my take, at least. I work off the premise that since the Elements are neutral themselves, any alignment works, as there really is no "opposite" alignment for neutral. However, going off of the concept that a cleric should only be 1 step away from their deity in Alignment, I'd say that you could restrict them to only Lawfuol Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil, Neutral Good or Neutral (like a Druid usually is) A further look/approach would be to look at what the elements are doing on Athas. Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Rain are attempting to get the balance back and restore the natural order of things (more Lawful tendancies), while Silt, Sun and Magma are attempting to consume the world, expand their element and basically are aiding in the snuffing out of the other elements/paraelement, which to me would be a more Chaotic approach (ignore the natural order of things and have the freedom to do what they want instead), so the first group might have clerics who can be lawful without being chaotic (LG, LN, LN, NG, N, NE), while the latter could have clerics that are chaotic rather than lawful (NG, N, NE, CG, CN, CE). But, that's just the over-analytical side of me probably complicating matters instead of searching for a simple solution.
#5 Shei-Nad Apr 20, 2004 15:41:47	1- I have a few more, I think. For starters, what's the color of Uriki Templar cassocks. White (WJ) or Yellow (PP)? 2- That's what I thought too. I don't allow obsidian or flint weapons longer than a short sword, though I do jeep the short sword, since its described so many times. 3- Hmm... I had my clerics folow the EAFW divisions (Elements + Rain Neutral good / Magma, Silt, Sun Neutral evil). I'm not so sure anymore, especially since there seems to be material supporting evil fire clerics (WRotJC comes to mind).
#6 Shei-Nad Apr 20, 2004 15:52:57	Hmm... Interesting take, Xlorep. I used the EAFW classifications for reference in making the elements and paraelements either neutral (good) and neutral (evil). They both stay neutral, but their clerics cannot be opposed in the good vs evil axis, provided in the (). Also, this determines if the clerics turn or rebuke undeads. And for reference, there is precedent for this. Take Wee Jas, for example. She is Lawful Neutral, but her clerics automatically rebuke undead, and cannot be lawful good. Hey, we could add this topic to the list of inconsistencies.
#7 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 20, 2004 16:05:43	Originally posted by Shei-Nad 3- Hmm... I had my clerics folow the EAFW divisions (Elements + Rain Neutral good / Magma, Silt, Sun Neutral evil). I'm not so sure anymore, especially since there seems to be material supporting evil fire clerics (WRotJC comes to mind). Well, I decided against the good/evil separation from EAFW personally because when it comes to divine power, evil sources are typically through "negative energy", which includes Undead rebuking/control, while good sources are through "positive energy" which is for Turning Undead. I personally feel that any Elemental/Paraelemental clerics should not be able to have the power to raise/control undead - as undead are "unnatural", and the elements/paraelements are, by their very natures, part of the "natural" world, rather than unnatural. I rule that regardless of alignment, any elemental/paraelemental cleric cannot rebuke/control or raise undead. I reserve that ability for the Templars of Evil Sorcerer-Monarchs (ie: not Oronis' Templars). I also don't use the one Domain that athas.org has for undead, as it doesn't make sense in my campaigns. Working from this, I led to a more law vs. chaos separation between the two groups of elementals & paraelementals.
#8 dawnstealer Apr 20, 2004 16:33:28	1- I have a few more, I think. For starters, what's the color of Uriki Templar cassocks. White (WJ) or Yellow (PP)? Probably open to debate, but if I had to guess, I'd say yellow, being that's their king's official color.
#9 Shei-Nad Apr 20, 2004 17:10:11	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm Well, I decided against the good/evil separation from EAFW personally because when it comes to divine power, evil sources are typically through "negative energy", which includes Undead rebuking/control, while good sources are through "positive energy" which is for Turning Undead. I personally feel that any Elemental/Paraelemental clerics should not be able to have the power to raise/control undead - as undead are "unnatural", and the elements/paraelements are, by their very natures, part of the "natural" world, rather than unnatural. I actually had a theory on this, explaining how elemental clerics could affect undead. When a cleric turns or rebukes undead, he channels energy from his divine plane. Not the element themselves, but the energy from them, the same, in essence, to power his spells. Now, when he turns undead, he floods them with that energy, to a point where they are surrounded by it, and weakening their link to the Gray. Weakened and hurt, the undeads must flee the cleric, the source of this energy, in order to regain strength and composure. And if the cleric is strong enough, he channels so much energy on the undead that it cuts them off completely from the gray, severing their links, and destroying the undead. Evil clerics, and paraelements, don't care about the existance of undead, one way or the other. However, as they can exercise control over them, they se them as another means to increase their own power. When the channel their energy to rebuke undead, they actually channel the paraelemental energy that is present in the world away from the undead. Grey energies are strenghtened within the undead, and they percieve the cleric as a source of grey energy, and are awed by him. When the cleric is powerful enough, he learns to channel the energy in such a way that the gray energies are directed towards him by the elemental energy surrounding them, creating a link between the undead and the cleric, allowing for the latter to control them. I'd also point out that templar energies are also elemental in their true nature. The Sorcerer Kings simply redirect them. If those energies allow templars to rebuke undead, surely evil clerics could do the same with their elemental energy. And I'd also have Kurn templars turn undead. Anyways, I'll have to think about that for a while, I guess...
#10 jon_oracle_of_athas Apr 20, 2004 17:27:54	1- I have a few more, I think. For starters, what's the color of Uriki Templar cassocks. White (WJ) or Yellow (PP)? IIRC the solution I was going to use with the templar prestige class for Urik was giving the prestige class templars yellow cloaks and the non-prestige class templars white cloaks.
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 20, 2004 21:58:58	Originally posted by Shei-Nad 2- Obsidian and Flint weapons are described in many places in the Dark Sun setting. However, it seems to me it would be pretty hard to craft an obsidian greatsword, for example, because of the lenght and proportionally small width of the blade, which would probably have the weapon break on most impacts. Short swords and small weapon heads would pretty much be as big as it could get for me. Anybody knows if it would actually be feasable to craft an obsidian greatsword that wouldn't break after 3-4 hits? While true, I think it's unfair to punish characters any more than really necessary, don't you? I'm not a SADIST... ;) I would give it hit points, and allow it to wear out just like all the other weapons, as opposed to just having it break after a little while. I would think, also, in a land where they're very used to building things out of these materials, they would probably have constructed some methods for maintaining these weapons that we may not have though of, as we don't have to actually do this. Is that a reasonable assumption? People are creative when put in a tight spot. 3- Sun clerics were said to be evil in 2e, but in the pentad, caelum seems something like lawful neutral, given he acted kind of good, but was ready to sacrifice the gladiators trapped in the gorge with his lava river (would that not be a lava spell anyways?). Also, he turns the undead, not rebukes them. And in athas.org, any element seems to allow all alignments. How do you handle this? Let them be all alignments. As said earlier, just because one person THINKS they're doing something good, doesn't mean that someone else isn't acting through them to cause negative effects that the character may never have even considered. If the element is really evil, it will act as such, regardless of the alignment of the cleric.
#12 nytcrawlr Apr 23, 2004 15:20:36	From: SQUIDFUR To: [email]webmaster@crimsonsun.org[/email] hello how are you just hoping you might pass this info on to the "Bunch of questions, maybe future threads" thread by Shei Nad in answer to the question about urikite templars cassock color (ie. yellow or white) --my server still does not agree with the kind folks at wotc so i can't post there. Veiled Alliance describes the templars as wearing cloaks that are sun-bleached white (and are, by law, the only class allowed to do so) RaFoaDK describes the templars as wearing yellow cassocks (although a few of the higher ranking officials have variations of color added to the yellow and the necromantic templar's robes are mostly black). The Crimson Legion describes them as wearing yellow robes as well. My take on it is that they just wear the cloaks (white) over their cassocks (yellow+)
#13 Shei-Nad Apr 23, 2004 15:39:57	Veiled Alliance describes the templars as wearing cloaks that are sun-bleached white (and are, by law, the only class allowed to do so) RaFoaDK describes the templars as wearing yellow cassocks (although a few of the higher ranking officials have variations of color added to the yellow and the necromantic templar's robes are mostly black). The Crimson Legion describes them as wearing yellow robes as well. My take on it is that they just wear the cloaks (white) over their cassocks (yellow+) Nice teamwork guys! ;) I think that settles it. Nice way to reconcile both. Hey, I have more questions: Can wizards cast in a structure such as a temple or dungeon (even if that is rarer in Dark Sun)? If so, how come such terrain is not considered barren? Indeed, it seems to me there would be very little plant life in blocks of stone. Of course, if the caster can reach out to more plant-friendly environments near him, that's ok, as its described in many DS novels (The blind Jozhal wizard casting from the rooftop comes to mind). However, that would mean that defiling should happen only around the caster, but rather at a location specified by the caster, within a certain range. no? Oh, and does anybody else love Baxa and Brom painting, but hate their drawings?
#14 dawnstealer Apr 23, 2004 16:50:20	I think it's more than just plant-life, but that's the most obvious effect (plants withering away to black ash). Little critters (spiders, flies, moles, mice, etc) are also drained in the process. Also, remember that in an underground environment, you might get even more vegetation as it's protected from harsh sunlight and water has a better chance of condensing. Depends. Artwork? While I respect him and his creative abilities, I'm not the biggest Baxa fan. I do like Brom, however, both painting and drawing. The boy has skillzesezzzzessssssszzzzzz. Toni DiTerlizzi kicks arse, too, but he only illustrated one book for DS: City State of Tyr. Dollar, who did Dune Trader and Thri-kreen, I think, started out horribly (the art in Dune Trader is about the worst I've ever seen in any book ever. EVER), but the artwork in Thri-Kreen of Athas is brilliant.
#15 Pennarin Apr 23, 2004 18:05:46	Toni DiTerlizzi did Elves of Athas to. The artwork in Kreen and the Revised Boxed Set is from Dollar, but its a David Miller who did the art for Traders and Black Flames. And you are so right, that art is so bad; in comparaison just look at what our unpaid (a criminal act if I ever saw one ;)), nonprofessional local drawing artist can do...damn! what its name again?...
#16 Shei-Nad Apr 24, 2004 9:13:11	Originally posted by Dawnstealer I think it's more than just plant-life, but that's the most obvious effect (plants withering away to black ash). Little critters (spiders, flies, moles, mice, etc) are also drained in the process. Also, remember that in an underground environment, you might get even more vegetation as it's protected from harsh sunlight and water has a better chance of condensing. Depends.¸ Underground, yes. However, I was talking about buildings. Since the defiler defiles the area around him, with radiuses of 5 feet for low level spell, he wouldn't get much life energy if he was casting from the third story of a building. To cast his spells, he would at least need to reach for energy from the ground, which means magic energies should not automatically be drawn from around a defiler, but around a spot of his choosing. no?
#17 Shei-Nad Apr 24, 2004 10:09:23	Hey, I just remembered I hadn't done the ''ex-classes'' part of my reedition, so I went back I just realised something. Why wouldn't a gladiator who is freed, or no longer competes in gladiatorial matches, not become an ex-gladiator? That would pretty much be the right term for a freed gladiator no? ''I used to be a gladiator in Tyr, before Tithian set us free'' sounds pretty ex-gladiator to me... Hmm... But then, I suppose they could still train and better their gladiatorial techniques, much like a wizard no longer needs his mentor to learn new and more powerful magics... I think I have an idea though...
#18 Shei-Nad Apr 26, 2004 18:06:42	Hey, another one: How are the roads of athas (the trade routes) maintained through the desert? Is it even possible to have a non-paved route maintained in sandy wastes? Seems unlikely ot me...
#19 dawnstealer Apr 26, 2004 23:58:42	And you are so right, that art is so bad; in comparaison just look at what our unpaid (a criminal act if I ever saw one ), nonprofessional local drawing artist can do...damn! what its name again?... Mike. He's a hack. I'm gonna go kick him in the junk.
#20 zombiegleemax Apr 27, 2004 2:52:20	I replied to this exact question in another thread, but I will repost here. Please do not burn my wife, or enslave my bible. Who maintains the trade routes? Several options here: the city-states maintain them for a portion of the way (in their best interest to promote trade); the main trading houses maintain them (leads to more political intrigue as they battle over who pays for them, rival houses disrupt them, etc); slave tribes maintain them (for a fee and to make resupply easier); even raiders could maintain them (what better way to make sure you get a piece of the pie and that no caravan is missed? More caravans means more opportunities.) As for being able to "maintain" a road through the wastes, take the example of airstrips and roads in Iraq. These areas look very similar to the terrain they cut through, but have been packed down by travel and sometimes treated with chemicals so that they as hard or harder than concrete. So for DS, I would imagine that repeated mekillot tramping combined with their excretions would yield the same results. Typically, there are only a few things that make a route unusable. Wind, rain, and deliberate sabotage are probably at the top of the list. So rain: not a huge concern here. Deliberate sabotage (raiders digging up the road to stall caravans): if this is a huge problem the traders will either band together (horrors!) and wipe out the common threat or find another route, thus the raiders cause their own demise. Wind: this is a gradual problem that cannot be avoided. But it is so gradual that the "road" kinda shifts away from the erosion as caravans sidestep the unstable area.