ie. 'The slavers died out ten years ago, but now yellow sails are once again seen on the Nyr Dyv'... 'the circle of eight was in trouble, but resurrected', 'Return to the Temple'...and 'Iuz was imprisoned, but is now back!', etc.
Not sure if this is a problem with the D&D system in general, or with writers struggling for material.
Think at tymes, may be the later...
Don't get me wrong, I love greyhawk, but see a lot of repetition at tymes...
Originally posted by priest of blipdoolpoolp
Don't get me wrong, I love greyhawk, but see a lot of repetition at tymes...
It's lazy design coupled with the idea by the designers at TSR/WotC that Greyhawk fans will buy just about anything that panders to the nostalgia of the old school products.
Sadly, they tend to be correct...
That's one of the tough parts about Greyhawk, you need to come up with a lot of your own material to "keep it fresh", I mean, how many times has the Temple of Elemental Evil risen? It's ridiculous. And Tharizdun is behind everything? bah!
Greyhawk needs to take out an older evil or two (Iuz is a good candidate) and fill the void with something fresh.
Also, I'd like to point out that when designers did try something new, such as the Greyhawk Wars and the whole deal Carl Sargeant did, the fans split and get all pee-pants about it which makes GH turn into a stale setting where things are just rehashed over and over.
With Greyhawk, if you do that you get this:
"HOW DARE THEY TAMPER WITH PERFECTION! THIS IS NOT HOW GYGAX WOULD'VE DONE IT! THEY ARE FOOLISH AND NOTHING! I SPIT UPON CARL SARGEANT AND HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS AND DOG! ARGHHHH!"
^Now; who wants to write for those people?
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
^Now; who wants to write for those people?
Gygax, Kuntz and the Troll Lord Gang, apparently...
:D
Anything to keep their worshippers happy...
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
This may be the reason that other settings have succeeded where Greyhawk failed. Look at Forgotten Realms, the designers decide to make a country fall apart or suffer and invasion or have a powerful villain be defeated people buy it and take a look, use what they like, ignore what they don't. That's how I think it should be.
And why can't those who play in Greyhawk do the same? If you don't like the fact that the Temple of Elemental Evil is rising yet again, then don't have it rise. If you want Iuz destroyed, either set up an adventure in which your PCs do so, or just have a campaign in which the next evil is already starting to fill in that void.
Published material can be stagnant, but our campains don't have to follow suit.
Greyhawk being "frozen" at the point in time represented in the LGG is a big plus for me, not a downside. I hope the official timeline never advances again.
A little of both, I think.
Examples would include:
1. Adventurers having the PC's actually explore locations such as the Abbor Alz, the Forgotten City in the Sea of Dust, the buried orcish cities in the Lortmill Mountains, the Causeway of the Fiends.
2. Adventurers that have intrigue and politics in them, such as going head to head with agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood in cities and governments across Orick. Perhaps an adventure where Iuz is trying to get the upper hand and you need to go against a member or two of the Boneshadow.
3. Iconic adventurers that takes something to another level, such as an adventurs dealing with someone trying to make massive use of Dweormerite, or perhaps an officlal underdark adventure (that does NOT re-has Vault of the Drow and such).
I know it is probably too much to ask for, but this sort of stuff wouold breath new life into a setting that has litterally been "frozen in time" and put completely into the hands of Dungeon Masters.
While I like designing my own adventures, sometimes it is nice to see sometime more that gets a LOT of thought and effort put into it (professional maps, new 'official' spells and prestige classes, etc.).
Ah well, that's my say!
.
Big setting-altering modules almost always leave a sour taste in the mouths of DMs who have to adapt to their consequences. It's better to let the DM wreck/corrupt/improve his setting with his OWN mega-adventure.
.
Now, the idea of an Underdark mega-adventure is pretty darn sweet, on the other hand. Very little has ever been detailed about the Under-Oerth - and I've been hankering to see somebody set a real module in the Sunless Sea ever since I saw it used as a throw-away reference in Module D3.
.
"D4: Imperial Throne of the Sunless Sea." Mmm.
It is called The Night Below Campaign boxed set. It was done by Carl Sargent. They just stripped of the GH logo and made it generic when they released it, but it has been done.
The Kingdom of Shar could be a main base of operations, but the Scarlet Brotherhood needs to run much like the Klan. An adventure based around Kenku, would be a nice addition. Plenty of areas which have not been explored that would be a nice addition to the setting.
I'd like to see more varied places in GH get highlighted with regional sources, all set in the same general time. I'd like to see adventures in other regions, again, all set around the same general time or approachable in a timeless fashion, not too dependent on the macro-events happening at the political levels of the campaign. Then, let the DMs fit the modules in with their own advancing timelines.
I'd then like to see a source book of potential future and alternative timelines spawning off further ideas and hooks for both localized and macro-level adventures. I think that would be kind of cool.
This was my Mysterious Places submission for Canonfire. My idea for what really happens "down below" probably isn't what you'd expect. If anyone's interested I'd be happy to fill you in. It's left open ended, obviously, so you could do what you want.
By: Valkaun_Dain
;)
Originally posted by UnderToad
no matter how much any society progresses, the same problems invariably haunt each generation.
I agree that that's definitely something to keep in mind, if "the same problem" is "the same" on a somewhat abstract level, rather than involving the same individuals.
Originally posted by bdpenney
That link takes you nowhere. I'd check it to make sure it was what you wanted...
The link I provided was the desired redirect he had in mind.
Thanks
Jason
As for Iuz, he might not die, but he is defeatable considering he was trapped for quite a while underneath castle Greyhawk. But if he's trapped and released again, I hope he has enough sense to start his evil empire somewhere else...
Jason
Originally posted by Samwise
They did.
It is called The Night Below Campaign boxed set. It was done by Carl Sargent. They just stripped of the GH logo and made it generic when they released it, but it has been done.
I heard this was somewhat incomplete with its content. I'd love to hear more opinions. I'm considering buying it.
Still, it'd be nice to have a current book detailing all of the information about Greyhawk's Underdark. I'm working on something like this for myself, and I'm finding very limited resources. Sure I've picked up GDQ 1-7, Dragon #298 and #300, and a few other materials, but I'd like to see more information about the relationships among derro, duerger, drow, mind flayers, aboleths, kuo-toans, and more. More ecology, history, sociology, etc.
Basically something as in-depth as the FR Underdark, but specific to Greyhawk. Something current would be helpful, too. I'm getting tired of reading adventures and synthesizing material from various sources. I want a single straight forward book.
Originally posted by Amaril
Still, it'd be nice to have a current book detailing all of the information about Greyhawk's Underdark. I'm working on something like this for myself, and I'm finding very limited resources. Sure I've picked up GDQ 1-7, Dragon #298 and #300, and a few other materials, but I'd like to see more information about the relationships among derro, duerger, drow, mind flayers, aboleths, kuo-toans, and more. More ecology, history, sociology, etc.
Basically something as in-depth as the FR Underdark, but specific to Greyhawk. Something current would be helpful, too. I'm getting tired of reading adventures and synthesizing material from various sources. I want a single straight forward book.
Next thing you know, you'll be wanting egg in your beer. Come on. Nobody's going to put out a single, straight-forward book on all of the underdark stuff you want because GH isn't going to generate that level of official publisher support.
If you don't want to synthesize and make stuff up yourself, GH is not the campaign for you and never really was. That's part of the charm of GH over FR. It leaves much more up to the individual DM to flesh out than FR does and always has with more minimalist sourcebooks.
When it comes to these sorts of needs, I synthesize and make stuff up as I need it. I don't need or want lengthy dissertations on kuo-toan sociology and their relations with aboleth, derro, and left-handed transvestites named Karl. I just want to present a fun game for my players.
With as much history and detailing for all of the surface regions of GH and their races, histories and politics, I'd like to see at least as much material for GH Underdark regardless of whether or not the information is provided in one of the gazetteers or in a seperate book. This is only my opinion of course.
If one does not want lengthy dissertations, one does not have to read them. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't be available for those who do.
My concern about having to synthesize so much material comes from enjoying the role of DM when roleplaying with friends, but having responsibilities that also require my time and energy. For me, D&D is a hobby, not a priority (I know some of you may consider that blasphemy). When not working 50+ hour weeks, I do enjoy spending some of my spare time outside of my home and with my significant other.
Secondly, with as much money as I have spent on old modules and Dragon backissues, I could have more willingly purchased a single resource that had it all.
Jason