Originally posted by Brimstone
I doubt it. My understanding was that today was the warehouse date. Which means it wouldn't be in stores for us to get our grubby little hands on for at least a couple days.
The books hit our warehouse and actually shipped out near the end of last week. It hits game distributors warehouses today, which is where the 26th date came from. Any stores that have orders for it from their distributors should have it within a few days--definitely by the end of the week.
Let us know when you see it!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Why am I always a poor college student when good books come out? Oh well, I will wait for a few paychecks till I get this one, I guess.
I would advise getting the book from Amazon. Stores are way too expensive.
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Figures. Ah well...this way I get it signed. :D
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Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I just checked on Barnes and Nobles and although the name was there I did not see a picture of the actual book itself.
Oh...sorry...I wasn't talking about the website, I was talking about the actual local B&N store.
In other news, I have sent contents to be posted up on the front page of Dragonlance.com later today, so you'll get a full list of the creatures to be found within its pages. You should find it in your local hobby stores by the end of this week and at your local book retailers within a few days after that!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press & MargaretWeis.com
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http://www.dragonlance.com/features/articles/display.asp?id=12340
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I wonder if the ambient storm is the Blood Sea monster.
Well, nobody can accuse me anymore for bad taste because I like the Kodragon, because the Funno made it in. The weiner dog underdark creature that makes the kodragon look like a good idea. ;) Of course I don't protest the funno too much, because it is important to have a bottom of the food chain in Krynn's new underdark. After all, I notice that the Disir, Razhak, and Ursoi made it in, which are all underdark creatures.
Looks good.
The skorenoi! I'm so happy I could cry.
Couple questions though...no axebeak? Or is that included in the "mundane flightless birds?"
Also...what is a Frost Dragon?
And finally...has it ever been determined what that Grey Dragon was supposed to be from Stormblade? An etherial dragon, perhaps? Shadow dragon?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Couple questions though...no axebeak? Or is that included in the "mundane flightless birds?"
Nope. The axebeak's not specific to Dragonlance, and I believe it's appeared in a handful of other 3rd edition products already (it's at the very least in Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors). The mundane flightless birds are the 'wari, emre and austrich.
Also...what is a Frost Dragon?
You know what a fire dragon is, right? Well, think the same thing only much colder. And smarter. And...
And finally...has it ever been determined what that Grey Dragon was supposed to be from Stormblade? An etherial dragon, perhaps? Shadow dragon?
I'm not sure, to be honest. Shadow dragon would work well, given that Whisper was sort of in the vicinity module-wise. It's not the gray dragon in the Bestiary.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
Great!
The skorenoi! I'm so happy I could cry.
I knew I recognized that one! Who were they again?
Also...what is a Frost Dragon?
Probably the counterparts to the Shadow and Fire Dragons made by father Chaos.
And finally...has it ever been determined what that Grey Dragon was supposed to be from Stormblade? An etherial dragon, perhaps? Shadow dragon?
You know I would like Ethereal and Astral Dragons in order to make the shadow dragon make sense. However, tying it in with the Frost and Shadow Wights makes sense too.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's not the gray dragon in the Bestiary.
Wait...what gray dragon? Which Bestiary? It's not on the list for this one...and I don't recall it being in the SAGA one either.
Originally posted by ferratus
I knew I recognized that one! Who were they again?
They are those crazy chaos touched Abanasinian centaurs.
They're from Dezra's Quest...and maybe City of the Lost, too (I haven't read that one...just heard rumors).
Originally posted by ferratus
You know I would like Ethereal and Astral Dragons in order to make the shadow dragon make sense.
I didn't like the premise of the Astral dragon originally. But I don't have a problem with ethereal and astral dragons existing in their respective planes and occasionally crossing over into the material plane (like shadow dragons)...just so long as their flavor texts mention nothing of the original story.
Are there people out there that actually like that original idea, I wonder.
Anywho...if it turns out that frost dragons are the counter part to shadow dragons (much like frost wights and shadow wights)...the astral and ethereal dragons may not work so well after that. But I can't see how that would be the direction they were going...since the shadow dragon doesn't have much connection with Chaos...except that one...but I don't think it was "created" by Chaos' shadow so much as the Chaos' shadow acted as a portal between the Material Plane and the Plane of Shadow...I think. Maybe not.
Man...I'm getting antsy. :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
Man...I'm getting ansy. :D
You think you're antsy... ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
They are those crazy chaos touched Abanasinian centaurs.
Ah, I haven't read Dezra's Quest and have only skimmed City of the Lost. I've been meaning to buy City of the Lost though. I've heard Dezra's quest, but I have vowed not to buy anymore prequels or books about incidental HotL descendants. "Prisoner of Haven" could be so well written that it makes the angels weep, and I still won't buy it. ;)
Are there people out there that actually like that original idea, I wonder.
Well nobody has the intention when they write something that it will be bad. As well, there is a fan base for everything. I have always said that, and it was confirmed just a few short weeks ago when a buddy's girlfriend (after finding out that he had not seen it) insisted that we all watch waterworld. We were warned that there was to be no heckling during the movie. The rest of the group went to keep the group together. I went home, and am two hours the richer for it. ;)
I myself am told I should be ashamed of liking the kodragon, the demonlord Malfesus, and the Dukes of Hazzard. You, I beleive, like the Dragon Overlords.
Anywho...if it turns out that frost dragons are the counter part to shadow dragons (much like frost wights and shadow wights)...the astral and ethereal dragons may not work so well after that.
Yeah, but I beleive that Cam has said before that the Shadow Dragons did not really have any role to play in the representation of the forces of good vs. evil because they were simply abberations that the other dragons would destroy. Of course, you'd think there would be a fire wight.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
You think you're antsy... ;)
Good point!
Originally posted by ferratus
I've been meaning to buy City of the Lost though. I've heard Dezra's quest, but I have vowed not to buy anymore prequels or books about incidental HotL descendants.
Ah...that's too bad. I really liked Dezra's Quest. Dezra is an interesting character...and apparently she slept with a centaur...now that takes talent. ;) (oh...and there was an implied lesbian moment with Dezra and a wood nymph too) LOL!
I thought Chris did an excellent job with the slyvan/fey world...in portraying it...well...like the greeks would.
Usha's another intereting character that never got a chance to develope, really. She did a little bit in DoaNA trilogy...but not much. So I'm looking forward to Prisoner of Haven.
Originally posted by ferratus
Well nobody has the intention when they write something that it will be bad.
I know. I'm sorry if it came across that I meant that. I didn't mean it that way.
Originally posted by ferratus
You, I beleive, like the Dragon Overlords.
Well...I liked their potential.
Anyway...my point was...I've heard people defend anything and everything in Dragonlance...The Inheritance, kodragons, an underdark, that the Abyss isn't really the Abyss, orcs, even a spelljamming port outside of Palanthas. But I've never heard/seen/read anyone defend the current Dragonlance usage of the astral dragon.
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, but I beleive that Cam has said before that the Shadow Dragons did not really have any role to play in the representation of the forces of good vs. evil because they were simply abberations that the other dragons would destroy. Of course, you'd think there would be a fire wight.
Maybe so, but I still think it stands to reason that since there is an Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane in the new Dragonlance cosmos...that it stands to reason that the shadow dragon isn't the only planar dragon abberation. It was just a thought.
Oh...and there may not be a fire wight...but I bet it'd be pretty easy to create one. Especially after having the stats for the shadow and frost wight.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Maybe so, but I still think it stands to reason that since there is an Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane in the new Dragonlance cosmos...that it stands to reason that the shadow dragon isn't the only planar dragon abberation. It was just a thought.
I don't think I would necessarily characterize them as aberrations but rather as true dragons outside the ten clans, with their own agendas and unique backgrounds. I don't think they're native to Krynn, for example. Fistandantilus summoned Whisper from somewhere else, and the shadow dragon in Jean Rabe's second trilogy has his origins with Chaos. Slipping them in there alongside the frost and fire dragons is really the most sensible of places for them in the scheme of things.
I'm really not a fan of the astral dragon mythology presented in Rick Swan's 2nd edition modules, at least not in connection with Krynn. In many ways that would make a better mythology for another world than the world of Dragonlance, just in terms of the present cosmological makeup.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm really not a fan of the astral dragon mythology presented in Rick Swan's 2nd edition modules, at least not in connection with Krynn. In many ways that would make a better mythology for another world than the world of Dragonlance, just in terms of the present cosmological makeup.
Isn't the astral dragon in Oak Lords as well? Or just the astral plane?
Anyway...I'll have to wait and see how the fire and frost dragon weigh in against the shadow dragon before I make a decision about which group I'd put the shadow dragon (as presented in AoM) in. Either aberration (fire, frost) or outsider (astral, ethereal).
Actually...I may be completely screwing up those terms...if so, just ignore me.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Isn't the astral dragon in Oak Lords as well? Or just the astral plane?
No astral dragon per se, but the Graygem was in it! And Porthios died! And Gilthanas became Speaker of the Suns!
So, well. That's sort of where that module was going.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No astral dragon per se, but the Graygem was in it! And Porthios died! And Gilthanas became Speaker of the Suns!
So, well. That's sort of where that module was going.
I read it over once...briefly. But I just got it about...oh a year or two ago (do you remember DH? I got it at your comic book store).
Anyway...once was enough to realize it wasn't worth going into detail with. Not for me at any rate.
So...DLS is pretty much shot. I have yet to meet a fan of DLE. DLQ seems to have a good fan base. I enjoy DLR (but don't really know the general fan feeling on it). But I haven't really heard much about DLA. Is it worth getting?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Fistandantilus summoned Whisper from somewhere else, and the shadow dragon in Jean Rabe's second trilogy has his origins with Chaos. Slipping them in there alongside the frost and fire dragons is really the most sensible of places for them in the scheme of things.
Well it depends. If Chaos dragons are hooked up the shadow plane, then that is exactly where Fistandantilus could have summoned it from, given Nuitari's connection to the plane of shadow. If Chaos's shadow was a gateway to a plane of ultimate nullification, then that works as well.
I'm really not a fan of the astral dragon mythology presented in Rick Swan's 2nd edition modules, at least not in connection with Krynn. In many ways that would make a better mythology for another world than the world of Dragonlance, just in terms of the present cosmological makeup.
I don't think either Brimstone or myself want to keep the astral dragon monster or its mythology. See, I think the confusion is arising that you Cam feel that since an obscure module used the name, it is therefore "claimed" in canon. What me and Brim simply want is a dragon outsider from the astral plane. Chuck the module, it just doesn't really matter.
See the thing is, I kinda wish that more thought had been put into the shadow dragon than just "well, Jean Rabe has it in her novels so we have to put down the stats for a shadow dragon in there.
Dragons have always represented the fury and majesty of the gods in the dragonlance setting, as well as the power of good and evil. Having a shadow dragon just sitting there doesn't really make sense. Now if it had been given the extraplanar subtype and also given an opposite on the other side, namely an astral dragon, that would be another story. I mean, why shouldn't White Robes be able to summon creatures from the Astral Plane like the Black Robes do from the plane of Shadow? You don't need to convert the 2e astral dragon, just start with the 3e shadow dragon and create its opposite.
Otherwise if we were going to make it a Chaos creature like a frost dragon or a fire dragon, then there should have been more work put into to make it feel like a chaos creature. Sure theoretically Chaos could have created any creature he wanted, but all of his creatures seem to have a particular flavour and the shadow dragon doesn't particularly match it. If it was an amorphous mass of living shadow in the shape of a dragon that had something to do with anihilation, then it would be a creature of chaos.
Originally posted by ferratus
I don't think either Brimstone or myself want to keep the astral dragon monster or its mythology.
Correct.
Originally posted by ferratus
You don't need to convert the 2e astral dragon, just start with the 3e shadow dragon and create its opposite.
Hmm...I may be mistaken...but isn't there a 3e astral dragon somewhere already?
Originally posted by ferratus
Otherwise if we were going to make it a Chaos creature like a frost dragon or a fire dragon, then there should have been more work put into to make it feel like a chaos creature.
I get the feeling we put more into this than we should have. From what Cam said, it sounds like the Frost Dragon is a counter part to a fire dragon...with the shadow dragon really having nothing to do with them.
Which, unfortunately means, there's probably no need for a fire wight.
Darnit...can't I just wait to get a product before I start analyizing it's impact on Krynn.
Let's say the shadow dragons has nothing to do with the fire and frost dragons.
That way we can have possible shadow, ethereal, and astral dragons that could be summoned by Black, Red, and White Robes respectively from their respective planes.
But that leaves the frost and fire dragons...now they seem kind of odd by themselves. Why fire and frost? Well...what if else where on the planet Chaos created other elemental dragons? If we use Krynn's new cosmology...isn't it possible that aside from fire and frost dragons, there could have been earth and air dragons? Or sludge and storm dragons, or whatever you want to call them, so long as one is related to the plane of earth and the other is related to the plane of air.
For really, what is a fire dragon than some sort of fire elemental in the shape of a dragon? (I could be way off on that statement, so just ignore me if I am)
As for the frost and shadow wights...well...we would just say that the term shadow really has nothing to do with the Plane of Shadow. (I've never really understood Frost Wights anyway and why it's a logical connection with a shadow wight...of course it's Chaos, it probably shouldn't be logical...)
Damnit...see, I'm doing it again. Okay...I'm going to stop discussing this until I've had a chance to read the about the Shadow and Frost Wights, and the Fire and Frost Dragons.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Hmm...I may be mistaken...but isn't there a 3e astral dragon somewhere already?
Not from Wizards of the Coast, although there's an ethereal dragon in the Draconomicon. The notion of a dragon native to the astral plane isn't that hard to think up, so it's very likely indeed that one's appeared in a third-party d20/D&D product. there was a 1st edition astral dragon in Dragon #51, for example, which is also where the weredragon made its first appearance (becoming renamed as the song dragon and popular in the Forgotten Realms). So, there isn't an "official" astral dragon, but it wouldn't be hard to put it together, if you felt it was important.
I get the feeling we put more into this than we should have. From what Cam said, it sounds like the Frost Dragon is a counter part to a fire dragon...with the shadow dragon really having nothing to do with them.
They all have Chaos in common, but their origins are all somewhat different. A fire dragon, frost dragon and shadow dragon don't come about the same way as each other, for example.
It's always interesting to think about these sorts of convenient groups, but in the case of non-standard dragons it can become something of a shoehorning effect, one that which I'd be wary of making (at least any more than I had to).
Cheers,
Cam
But that leaves the frost and fire dragons...now they seem kind of odd by themselves. Why fire and frost? Well...what if else where on the planet Chaos created other elemental dragons? If we use Krynn's new cosmology...isn't it possible that aside from fire and frost dragons, there could have been earth and air dragons?
Don't forget that all Chromatics and Metallics have elemental subtypes anyway (fire: Gold, Brass, Red, cold: Silver, White, water: Black Bronze, earth: Blue Copper, air: Green) Dragon's by their very nature are tied to the elemental planes.
As for having a 'balance' for Chaos creations wouldn't that be against his nature, most of the creations he used in the Chaos War weren't created until he was released from the grey-gem, then being Chaos he went hog wild. Being Chaos itself he should have no uniformity or system to his creations, at best they were made on a whim. Does this mean there should be lawful counterparts to all his creations since Dragonlance is all about balance? NO, there shouldn't be, the Gods never had time durring the Chaos War to create Lawful counterparts for all Chaos' little minions, and they certainly haven't had time since.
As it is we know there are places outside of Krynn, the Dragon Overlords for instance, didn't come from Krynn, Fisty's Shadow Dragon likewise came from elsewhere, like Skie, and Malyx. Remember the Gods of Krynn didn't create the world the Overloards are from, (if I recall correctly they maintained they never had gods) Takhisis found it and brought Skie over, likewise they didn't make the Shadow Dragons. I don't really see a need for a counterbalance, not everything gets balanced, not every evil thing needs a good counterpart. If they did I'd have to aks what's the Death Knights good counterpart? Or how about an Ettin?
Does this make the Shadow Dragon an aberation within Dragonlance (the word, not the D&D creature type)? Yes, it does, and that's sorta the point of the Shadow Dragons, they shouldn't be, but they are.
Originally posted by Nived
Being Chaos itself he should have no uniformity or system to his creations, at best they were made on a whim.
However that is not what Chaos did. If he created creatures on a whim without any rhyme or reason then he would have created creatures that restore memories, or heal, or create cheese. The simple fact is that during Dragons of Summer Flame, Chaos created creatures with one purpose in mind, entropy. Thus, remnants of the Chaos War should be based around the anihilation of creation.
The Shadow Dragon, if it is a creature of Chaos, doesn't really fit that mold visually and thematically. If the Shadow Dragon isn't a creature of Chaos, it is an evil dragon that has no counterpart, which it should have.
If they did I'd have to aks what's the Death Knights good counterpart? Or how about an Ettin?
Yes, but none of those creatures represent the struggle between good and evil. Dragons do.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Okay...I just had a thought.
Let's say the shadow dragons has nothing to do with the fire and frost dragons.
That way we can have possible shadow, ethereal, and astral dragons that could be summoned by Black, Red, and White Robes respectively from their respective planes.
That's the solution that I would find most ideal. After all, it isn't any different from the sea and aquatic dragons, in that the dragons come from a foreign environment and do not play much of a role in the wars of Ansalon.
Plus you got the fact that the first shadow dragon was summoned by Fistandantilus, and you've got the Chaos Dragon who stepped out of Chaos' shadow which was acting as a sort of portal (perhaps to the shadow plane). So logically you'd think good and neutral wizards would have their own dragon types to summon, namely the ethereal and astral dragons.
But that leaves the frost and fire dragons...now they seem kind of odd by themselves. Why fire and frost? [snip]
For really, what is a fire dragon than some sort of fire elemental in the shape of a dragon? (I could be way off on that statement, so just ignore me if I am)
Well the question could be as well that perhaps Chaos was making dragons in mockery of the ten clans. So you've got:
Fire Dragons: Red, Cold
Frost Dragons: Silver, White
Then the logical other three (if you were so inclined to create more Chaos dragons) would be:
Acid Dragons: Black, Copper
Poison Dragons: Green, Brass
Storm Dragons: Blue, Bronze
As for the frost and shadow wights...well...we would just say that the term shadow really has nothing to do with the Plane of Shadow. (I've never really understood Frost Wights anyway and why it's a logical connection with a shadow wight...of course it's Chaos, it probably shouldn't be logical...)
I always linked the frost wight with Chaos because cold is basically the negation of heat and warmth rather than a positive force of energy. Cold is what exists in the void of space.