Originally posted by Brython
Has anyone come up with 3rd edition rules for Avangions and Dragons. Im refering to both their transformation and psionic enhanced magic as well as their stats.
There's a thread somewhere here in which DarkHelm has posted his Dragon transformation, in his webiste there both the dragon and the avangion process... unfortunatelly his page is going to be off-line for a while (couple of weeks, I hope).
No problem, I'm attempting to get into it, so I can somehow provide the rules to people who are interested.Originally posted by Porkchops
You can find a good 3.0 conversion here http://darksun.cyberdark.com.br/
Are you sure the link isn't broken? I tried to visit it and got an 404 error...
Originally posted by FabrÃcio Madruga Lopes
Are you sure the link isn't broken? I tried to visit it and got an 404 error...
Hi! The link is not broken: the site is alive and well (although I had to stop updating it as often as I wanted due to personal issues).
If you can't access it clicking the link, copy+paste the link in your browser.
Otherwise, try this alternate link: Library of Urik
Originally posted by Amarok
Hi! The link is not broken: the site is alive and well (although I had to stop updating it as often as I wanted due to personal issues).
If you can't access it clicking the link, copy+paste the link in your browser.
Otherwise, try this alternate link: Library of Urik
Worked just fine now... thanks!
Originally posted by Porkchops
You can find a good 3.0 conversion here http://darksun.cyberdark.com.br/
WOW Very nicely done!! I like that one!! Congrats!!
I would very much like to see something in the line like this to be the official version! Sadly only the Metamorphosis Epic Spells are missing. Will we see their writeup sometime?I especially like it because Wiz20/Psion20 is not a requirement. Because using the offical conversion rules a 2ED Wizard 20/Psionicist 20 would translate into a 3e character with 26 character levels (and not 40). So the advanced beings should be available for characters of about 26th level (as a minimum).
Sadly as Darkhelm's Page is offline I haven't seen it yet. But from quite some time before on this board this linke was posted:
http://www.thornyscrate.com/~gabe/Dragon_Template.html
I like that take-on. But I better like the idea of having Advanced beings as PrC and not templates.
Originally posted by Xular
Sadly only the Metamorphosis Epic Spells are missing. Will we see their writeup sometime?
That would be my next step. However, personal life is taking a toll on me, and I won't be able to do that for a time.
But keep checking the website. I'm hoping to do that at most by the beginning of June.
Originally posted by Xular
WOW Very nicely done!! I like that one!! Congrats!!
Just to make sure that I'm clear, that writeup is not mine, it's Amarok's, although it's one I'm quite fond of as well
I just wanted to make sure I didn't give the impression I was trying to take credit for work that is not mine.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
A lot of good and not-so-good conversions out there, but nothing official. My take was to keep it as close to the original as possible, requiring 20 levels in both Psion and Wizard. There were other skill requirements (concentration of 20, etc). After a few discussions on this board, I also added a few "lesser" versions, meant to throw off any would-be dragons rising up and challenging the SKs. The real versions of the spell are very hard to find and very hard to implement. If you're interested, I'll post them at some point, but I think the core rules are somewhere on these boards.
I'm with you on this one- keep it 'real' like 2e, the idea of only needing 26 levels to become a dragon... makes me shuddger.
Consider this: nothing stopping a mage become up to 30th level Archmage or whatever, officially, in 3e rules, but maybe on Athas the only way to become IMORTAL is to become a Dragon or Avignon, bar becoming undead. I like the idea that you have to have patience, ignoring levels in other classes until you reach the goals of 20/20 - then begin your transformation. If you read the character kit "advanced beings" from P&D, you get the distinct impression that people that take that kit, are extremly focused - thus ignoring side journies in other levels whilst pursuing the 20/20 needed to become immortal.
Keep it real, keep it a single 10-level prestige class.
http://www.thornyscrate.com/~gabe/Dragon_Template.html#drag-adv
As probably one of the best conversion of the dragon template i have found so far.
Couple of questions:
1. Does the STR bonus also factor in inherent increases due to size?
2. Any plans to add dragon feats at different stages of the development?
That being said, it's in the 2e flavour, almost identical to a conversion i wrote for my house rules, has properly used and acknowledged sources... i can't say enough good stuff about this conversion!
The one at http://darksun.cyberdark.com.br/ is not to bad either, but i still think it should be only 10 levels... and need 24 ranks in psicraft (thus preserving the 20/20 requirement)
j/k, not bad, really. If you like that ind of thing.
Originally posted by Amarok
That would be my next step. However, personal life is taking a toll on me, and I won't be able to do that for a time.
But keep checking the website. I'm hoping to do that at most by the beginning of June.
Well ok thankx in advance! I will keep chacking it! Btw one of your requirements for the various Advanced Being PrC is the psionic polymorph self power. In the Extended Psionics Handbook this power (metamorphosis) is only available to those psions who specialize in psychometabolism. Any ideas what might be called for instead? Or will that remain?
And in regard to what Porkchops said: Nice of you to specifically point that out! Though to me you didn't give the impression that you were taking credit for Amarok's work, so no problem.
Originally posted by Xular
Btw one of your requirements for the various Advanced Being PrC is the psionic polymorph self power. In the Extended Psionics Handbook this power (metamorphosis) is only available to those psions who specialize in psychometabolism. Any ideas what might be called for instead? Or will that remain?
Actually, I'm still playing D&D3e, and my party and I are not willing to go fully into 3.5 yet. We're still using the original PsiHB, and we won't be buying the EPH anytime soon. So, we'll still stick to these versions and this requirement.
Originally posted by Jaanos
I'm with you on this one- keep it 'real' like 2e, the idea of only needing 26 levels to become a dragon... makes me shuddger.
Consider this: nothing stopping a mage become up to 30th level Archmage or whatever, officially, in 3e rules, but maybe on Athas the only way to become IMORTAL is to become a Dragon or Avignon, bar becoming undead. I like the idea that you have to have patience, ignoring levels in other classes until you reach the goals of 20/20 - then begin your transformation. If you read the character kit "advanced beings" from P&D, you get the distinct impression that people that take that kit, are extremly focused - thus ignoring side journies in other levels whilst pursuing the 20/20 needed to become immortal.
Keep it real, keep it a single 10-level prestige class.
One thing your forgetting is multiclassing is much different now. According to the offical conversion rules when 2e went to 3e, a character's new level was equal to his highest level plus each remaining class levels seperatly divided by 3 (rounded up). Thus a previously 20/20 is a 3e/3.5 equevilent of 27th level.
Also a base 10 level only class breaks the rules of advancement for PrC. If the abilities aren't gained in a patern though the only benifits of further advancement is an occasional bonus feat, as in the epic level handbook/3.5 dmg. I do however agree with being unable to change classes, as WotC even put as part of a PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds.
Originally posted by rikkusbogusworth
One thing your forgetting is multiclassing is much different now. According to the offical conversion rules when 2e went to 3e, a character's new level was equal to his highest level plus each remaining class levels seperatly divided by 3 (rounded up). Thus a previously 20/20 is a 3e/3.5 equevilent of 27th level.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I keep forgetting this part of the explanation when I present why I did the modifications to the requirements like I did. With my Dragons/Avangions, it is *possible* for a Wizard/Psion combo to start the metamorphosis at level 28 (11 levels of Psion, 17 levels of wizard) so, it's actually, following the conversion rules, a little harder to reach than previously possible in 2e, since the multiclassing rules are changed.
Also a base 10 level only class breaks the rules of advancement for PrC. If the abilities aren't gained in a patern though the only benifits of further advancement is an occasional bonus feat, as in the epic level handbook/3.5 dmg.
Not necessarily. Some 10-level PrC's simply don't advance any further. It isn't required to make a 10-level PrC be able to advance further, if it isn't necessary, and if the PrC doesn't have a noticeable pattern to it's advances.
I do however agree with being unable to change classes, as WotC even put as part of a PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds.
I disagree there. I think one of the coolest ideas given in 3e/3.5e is that characters can select varying classes and still end up fulfilling the requirements for a PrC. I mean, look at the Dragon Disciple PrC in the DMG. The spellcasting requirement is "Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." the immediate thought would be Sorcerer or Bard. But, it also includes Assassins, who as of 3.5e are able to cast without preparation, even while using Int as their base ability modifer. The ability to select such variations allows for more customization of a Character, in my opinion. for dark Sun, I'd say that such variation is possible. What would that mean? Well, you might have a Necromant (from Jon's site, if I recall correctly) who becomes a Dragon, and whatnot. It also means that with the XPH, you could possibly have Wilders become Dragons or Avangions. If you permit Sorcerers, they also can become Dragons or Avangions. with my rules on Advanced Beings, even Psychic Warriors could become these. this gives, to me, the ability for a player (or DM) to choose the path he or she would want for that character.
Who's to say that Dregoth isn't a Wizard(defiler)/Psion(egoist)/Archmage/Metamind? For someone of his power, that could be a possibility. Starting as a Wizard(defiler), and later with Psion(Egoist?), he then advances to becoming an Archmage (for more powerful abilities accrued with that PrC), and the powerful Metamind PrC from the XPH as well. Then, maybe he used the advantages of the two PrC's he had, and some discovered information from the Blue Age, he creates the Dragon Metamorphosis spell (if you believe he actually made the spell). after all, he is reputed to be the most powerful of the Sorcerer-Kings.
Or that Borys and Myron might have been Wizard(defiler)/Psychic Warrior combos. After all, they got special weapons given to them by Rajaat to help defeat their enemies, while the other Champions did not (Of course, there's also Irikos who got one too, but it could be similar, and there's enough controversy as to if he was a Champion or not). what made them special, or unique enough to get it? Sure, Myron and Irikos were supposedly the left & right hands of Rajaat during the Preserver Wars. But maybe it was something else, maybe he gave them those weapons to augment their more martial training.
Hamanu might even be a War Mind/Wizard(defiler), who was given the ability to access 1 level higher of powers than the War Mind class grants (through the meddling of Rajaat).
What if Daskinor was a Wizard(defiler)/Wilder? He just *screams* Wilder to me, with his wild emptional and mental shifts.
Maybe Nibenay is a Wizard(defiler)/Shadow Wizard/Psion(Telepath)? It might give some sort of a tie to the Black for the Shadow King.
See, there's many of examples of potential variations on the theme possible through the use of the PrCs and various base classes, to want to keep, in my opinion, the choice as possibility.
Have you read "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King"?
Hamanu clearly states, that he was just a simple warrior ;)
I tend to stick to the belief, that becoming an advanced being takes a lot of focus. You have a goal and do anything to attain the status ov Avangion or Dragon. No distraction is allowed, or you will loose nearly god-like powers (after all, they come closest to gods in a Dark Sun setting).
And if I remember correctly, Boris was the one to find out, how to transform...
Dregoth was second to him and as the other sorceror-kings saw Boris rampaging around in pain, because of the transformation, they feared, Dregoth would likewise get mad and so plotted to kill him.
For me a Dragon or Avangion is not an arcane spellcaster that also has learned to harness the powers of the mind (meaning it's enough, to have arcane spellcasting power and psionic powers at your disposal to attempt the transformation.
Rather he is a master defiler/preserver and psionicist. That is, he excludes all studies besides the ones needed for the transformation, after all, it's risky and demands every bit of attention. So only Preserver/Defiler / Psions should be allowed to attempt the transformation.
I believe to give players all the choices you want, but in the case of a transformation, that alters the entire world, they have to meet several obstacles, like narrowing their choices of class...
That's just my humble opinion anyway
So you have a 3rd level psion/8rd level defiler/10th level cerebremancer who can start his metamorphosis even earlier.
This prestige class practically screams "Advanced Being Metamorphosis"
And its so easy to mesh it with any other combo, psion/clerics becoming elementals, psion/druids becoming spirits of the land, etc.
Originally posted by Kaihne
hm...
Have you read "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King"?
Lynn Abbey's work is pretty far off from canon; she admitted herself she had to make things up as since went, since TSR at the time forbade contact between her and the authors of DS.
But it fitted perfectly into the mold
But that's a little off-topic don't you think ;)
It was just a lance at the sorcerer-kings being jacks-off-all-trades
Originally posted by Kaihne
hm...
Have you read "Rise and Fall of a Dragon King"?
Hamanu clearly states, that he was just a simple warrior ;)
Yes, many times. It also has many little inconsistancies in the novel, like making Uyness into the Ogre-Naught. Hamanu also was clearly changed/enhanced by Rajaat in ways that even he doesn't understand, and in a different way than the other Champions.
I tend to stick to the belief, that becoming an advanced being takes a lot of focus. You have a goal and do anything to attain the status ov Avangion or Dragon. No distraction is allowed, or you will loose nearly god-like powers (after all, they come closest to gods in a Dark Sun setting).
I don't see it as a distraction. I see it as character development. It's not like they are switching to becoming a cleric halfway through, and then trying to become a dragon with only half the wizard levels needed. Specific class-level requirements are something that I feel is a throwback to 2e rules. simple as that. Much like racial restrictions on base classes.
And if I remember correctly, Boris was the one to find out, how to transform...
Dregoth was second to him and as the other sorceror-kings saw Boris rampaging around in pain, because of the transformation, they feared, Dregoth would likewise get mad and so plotted to kill him.
See, now you're commenting on something mid-discussion. this is something that was part of the Inconsistancy threads done here. Basically, there are many of us who feel Dregoth had invented the spell, and then taught it to Borys, who in turn initiated the process in the others. Dregoth is clearly the superior - he has controlled the madness, and yet ironically was killed before his final transformation but after he already had harnessed the madness part of the metamorphosis. I personally think that Borys "skipped" muchg of the metasmorphosis to accelerate his transformation into a full dragon with the help of the other SK's. So while he was "completed" with his transformation, he didn't go through the entire change. Dregoth did go through it all, wihout skipping.
For me a Dragon or Avangion is not an arcane spellcaster that also has learned to harness the powers of the mind (meaning it's enough, to have arcane spellcasting power and psionic powers at your disposal to attempt the transformation.
Rather he is a master defiler/preserver and psionicist. That is, he excludes all studies besides the ones needed for the transformation, after all, it's risky and demands every bit of attention. So only Preserver/Defiler / Psions should be allowed to attempt the transformation.
Well, since the Psionicist class doesan't exist in 3e/3.5e, guess we can't use that. And since officially there is one - and only one - class of Arcane spellcasters for DS (Ignoring the blatantly lame Paizo write-ups), that does limit it. I also am fairly certian that the other psionic classes that manifest powers can be used. I gave examples, simple as that. Making specific clas restrictions, one aain, is a throwback idea from 2e, and in my opinion should not be in 3e/3.5e (with the notable exception of how it is done and explained in the Book of... umm.... the good-stuff-book, which I can't remember the name of right now, and evev then, I don't like it).
I believe to give players all the choices you want, but in the case of a transformation, that alters the entire world, they have to meet several obstacles, like narrowing their choices of class...
That's just my humble opinion anyway
This reminds me of a saying of Henry Ford's "You can get them in any color you want, as long as it's Black." (summarized) Basically, you don't even want to give the impression of Chioce. I like Choice, I like letting the playersw decide how to develop, and keep the restrictions of "Class" as an intangible element in the gaming world, ather than a hard-cut rule that the characters must adhere to. After all, in DS books, it's shown that people might even mistake a Sun Cleric for a Wizard, if they don't know how to tell the difference.
Another thing to think about - the prime exqamples of Dragons and Avangions in DS are the Sorcerer-Kings. How dedicated to becoming those Dragons/Avangions were thy prior to the rebellion against Rajaat? Heck, most of them didn't even know about the metamorphosis processes. So, you're saying that these powerful psionic/arcane users, who had little to no knowledge of the process, tasked to wipe out various races from Athas, were all focused on becoming Dragons, and all did everything the same way? That seems rather far-fetched. I think that while yes, they were all Rajaat's most promising students of Defiling (thus, were Defilers, or use Defiling magic rather than Preserving), and they all had honed their psionic potential in different ways - some as Psions, using the studious nature of Psions to compliment that of a Wizard, one or two as Wilders, who would be the more unstable, a least emotionally of the group. A couple as Psychic Warriors - possibly left-over generals from Rajaat's war agains Preservers. Now, Hamanu didn't know *any* magic or psionics (however, he could have been a Wild Talent) prior to Rajaat's meddling. After, he could cast spells and manifest powers, however, he was still very warlike, thus the War Mind idea I had.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Also, don't forget about the Cerebremancer in the XPH, who can grab a manifester level and an arcane spellcasting level for every 1 level of the prestige class.
So you have a 3rd level psion/8rd level defiler/10th level cerebremancer who can start his metamorphosis even earlier.
This prestige class practically screams "Advanced Being Metamorphosis"
And its so easy to mesh it with any other combo, psion/clerics becoming elementals, psion/druids becoming spirits of the land, etc.
I didn't forget it, I intentionall avoided it. The Cerebmancer, like the Mystic Theurge is a broken class. I generally don't allow them in my campaigns without some damned good reason.
Originally posted by Porkchops
Lynn Abbey's work is pretty far off from canon; she admitted herself she had to make things up as since went, since TSR at the time forbade contact between her and the authors of DS.
It's not very far. There are some inconsistancies, but generally they are small (with a couple larger ones), but you're right.
Originally posted by Kaihne
hm...
But it fitted perfectly into the mold
But that's a little off-topic don't you think ;)
It was just a lance at the sorcerer-kings being jacks-off-all-trades
Well, somewhere on this forum is the copies of the letters she sent about it.
(sorry about typos. My left hand it wrapped in gause, I had a 2x6 board smash my left index finger yesterday, and it still hasn't been very easy to use it, I think I might have broken it, actually, and have to get to the Doctor's, however, typing with my thumb is not very easy - as I'm not used to it.)
(sorry about typos. My left hand it wrapped in gause, I had a 2x6 board smash my left index finger yesterday, and it still hasn't been very easy to use it, I think I might have broken it, actually, and have to get to the Doctor's, however, typing with my thumb is not very easy - as I'm not used to it.)
Congrats. Here, have a cookie.
Seriously, though, you should have a doctor take a look at that.
I don't see a throwback to 2E rules as a bad thing. My DM limits dwarves that like to use arcane magic to wizards, because he says, arcane magic doesn't come easy to dwarves and they have to study hard to be able to cast even the basic cantrips.
Limiting classes can be used to create flavour for a campaign (sure, it limits the choices of the player somewhat, but if players and DM can reach consensus about the what's and don'ts, I think that's ok).
In regard to the sorcerer-kings dedication to becoming dragons:
They had IIRC the power of the dark lens to aid them in their endeavour, so they didn't need to focus that hard and they had the "support" of a group of powerful defilers and psionicists.
What "modern" defiler or preserver can lay claim to that?
They can't utilize the dark lens, they don't know the process first-hand and (at least in the case of defilers) they don't have the support of other powerful spellcasters, so theirs is a lonely, hard and challenging road, that allows no distraction (or character development, besides the one into the direction of advanced being
). But as always, just my humble opinion ;)Originally posted by Kaihne
hm...
I don't see a throwback to 2E rules as a bad thing. My DM limits dwarves that like to use arcane magic to wizards, because he says, arcane magic doesn't come easy to dwarves and they have to study hard to be able to cast even the basic cantrips.
Limiting classes can be used to create flavour for a campaign (sure, it limits the choices of the player somewhat, but if players and DM can reach consensus about the what's and don'ts, I think that's ok).
Then there's our difference. I like choice, variuety and the ability to make unique, individual characters without extra limitations like racial limits on base classes, or class-specific requirements for PrC's. I don't feel that someone taking levels in a PrC that extends their spellcasting class to a different direction makes them any less dedicated a spellcaster, or any less dedicated to becoming an Advanced Being. I feel that the advanced being requirement is about power - and that there could be multiple paths to the same goal. which is why, in my write-up, I actually accounted for such variance - I have it so it is possible that any character who can cast up to 9th level arcane spells, and manifest up to 6th level psionic powers, as well as a few skill requirements (which, to me, better represents dedication, by spending those usually all too valueable skill points on 2 or 3 requisite skills) can achieve Dragon/Avangionhood, if they develop the stage-1 spell (actually, for Avangions, they *must* be a preserver, and not a defiler. The caster could be either a preserver or a defiler if they wish to become a Dragon, however - but they will eventually become a Defiler by doing so regardless).
In regard to the sorcerer-kings dedication to becoming dragons:
They had IIRC the power of the dark lens to aid them in their endeavour, so they didn't need to focus that hard and they had the "support" of a group of powerful defilers and psionicists.
What "modern" defiler or preserver can lay claim to that?
They can't utilize the dark lens, they don't know the process first-hand and (at least in the case of defilers) they don't have the support of other powerful spellcasters, so theirs is a lonely, hard and challenging road, that allows no distraction (or character development, besides the one into the direction of advanced being
So, the, in my opinion, contrieved feel of making it very uniqe to the Sorcerer-Kings, that they are special, and nobody could possibly duplicate ther development. Even if it has been mentioned that "Every Dragon is Different" in some book (really bad reference, but anyway), what your saying is that the dragon metamorphosis must have the exact requirements from 2e - 20 levels of wizard, 20 levels of psion (formerly psionicist) - there is no other possible solution to this, and we'll just throw the 3[.5]e rulebook out the window in this case. I'm sorry, but I do like to keep my rules close to 3[.5]e as I can when I present them on the web, especially for Dark Sun. why? because it makes it far easier to be included in other people's campaigns, without breaking the rules much.
Another way to look at it is, the first stage of dragon or avangion metamorphosis should start with a spell. Well, these used to be 10th level psionic enchantments. However, there is no 10th level magic in 3/3.5e. Instead, there is epic spellcasting/epic manifesting. while inherantly a boken system as written, especially when you attempt to make a new spell in it, there is certian parts that are interesting, and kinda make sense. first, each epic spell is unique to the caster - the caster has to research the spell, and won't just find them on any scroll. As such, the spell that affects a caster personally, would be rigged by that caster to actually work on him, would it not? I means, if the caster's a sorcerer/wilder, would he write a spell for a wizard/psion to use? No, he'd write one he could use. They may have similar effects, and the effects are in turn named eventually by some standardized name that others could call it because it does the same thing, even if researched independantly by 2 different casters. also, at epic levels, the different magical styles becomes blurred - sorcerers could begin to learn how to cast lik wizards and vice-versa. Psions and Wilders also can reverse their roles. Heck, the difference between magic and psionics becomes blurred as well.
So, why do you want to paint in strict black & white shades when everything else is close to the same shade of gray?
I see your point...
But I also think you are misunderstanding me. I haven't mentioned something about having to met the exact requirements from 2E. :D I'm just saying that it should be tougher to become a dragon/avangion.
The 9th level spell casting ability is fine, but 6th level manifesting?
I would demand 9th level manifesting ability too.
Just remember, a Dragon/Avangion changes the face of the whole world and shouldn't be allowed for "mere whimps who haven't grasped the power of their mind fully yet".
This limits the number of people, who will attempt such a feat.
I can see wisdom in your approach though, being able to start the process before that... But I would go on to demand, that to reach the later stages the requirements would get higher...
As always my humble opinion...
I like your approach because of it's simplicity and creation of freedom, but I have nightmares about gigantic battles between hordes of dragons and avangions rampaging through my beloved Uric and Nibenay ;)
PS: I don't think I'm painting black & white here, I just narrow the gray spectrum :D
But I concede, you win
Originally posted by Kaihne
hm...
I see your point...
But I also think you are misunderstanding me. I haven't mentioned something about having to met the exact requirements from 2E. :D I'm just saying that it should be tougher to become a dragon/avangion.
Well, my design is tougher, however it's easier to start, but remember - it's 30 levels of metamorphosis instead of just 10. Plus 4 epic spells that cost something fierce in XP, power points and HD's of creaturees sacrificed, and the requisite psionic items to be made, like Obsidian Orbs.
The 9th level spell casting ability is fine, but 6th level manifesting?
I would demand 9th level manifesting ability too.
Just remember, a Dragon/Avangion changes the face of the whole world and shouldn't be allowed for "mere whimps who haven't grasped the power of their mind fully yet".
This limits the number of people, who will attempt such a feat.
True, however, in 3e, multiclassing as a manifester or spellcaster severely weakens that character. the character who is a level 20 wizard/level 20 psion is far weaker than a character who is a level 40 of either. trust me, I've playtested that to death, with 5 other people, throwing together class combinations - multiclassing in or out pof a spellcaster and/or psionic manifester class results in a crippling effect on the character - his spells/powers won't be as effective or efficient as those of pure development as a character of either one or the other. There is acvtually about 10 levels wasted on the character (well, between 8 and 12, depending on the class) of pictking up sup-standard powres and/or spells that really isn't needed. Multiclassing rules in 3e are significantly different than those of 2e (even 2e Dual-classing) A level 20 wizard/20 psionicist from 2e would come out to being about a level 27 character, using WotC's own official conversion rules. I feel that making a 9th-level powrs & 9th-level spells requirement as an overall crippling effect on the character, short of using the broken Cerebmancer PrC that was based off of the Mystic Theurge - and then it would almost be like mandating the use of that PrC.
Rather than doing that, I decided to reduce one of the requirements. I chose psionics, because the Sorcerer-Kings are most often referred to about their magical powr over psionic power, and the term "psionic enchantmernt" has a grammatical feel of psionics enhancing magic, not magic enhancing psionics, which makes me feel that Magic is the important, basic part of the combination, with psionics being secondary, augmenting the effectiveness of the magic. I chose 6th level because of the Psychic Warrior class - which didn';t exist in 2e, and I felt deserved the possible option to actually attempt it, as I feel a couple of the Sorcerer-Kings are better-suited as PsyWars instead of Psions.
I can see wisdom in your approach though, being able to start the process before that... But I would go on to demand, that to reach the later stages the requirements would get higher...
It is. To reach reach of the 4 stages, one must research & develop the appropriate epic spell, and the spell has incrementally increasing requirements, costs, and power needed to do it, plus, there is a pretty steep Spellcraft/Psicraft requirement for the spells. Further, as a character advances as a Dragon or Avangion, they increase in their spellcaster level and their manifester level.
As always my humble opinion...
I like your approach because of it's simplicity and creation of freedom, but I have nightmares about gigantic battles between hordes of dragons and avangions rampaging through my beloved Uric and Nibenay ;)
Actually, it's still steep enough that my players find it a challenge - and only the really dedicated player can reach Dragonhood - which, in turn, they become a threat to the status-quo of the other Dragons (the sorcerer-Kings) who turn on that player to kill him. The Avangion process is a guarded secret of the only existing Avangion on Athas - Oronis. And he will take a LOT of convinncing to reveal his secret. don't forget that the SK's are more than mere Dragons (or Avangion). They also are Champions of Rajaat, ans they are Sorcerer-Monarchs. They have hundreds, if not thousands of relatively loyal Templars at their command. Hamanu is relatively impervious to most attacks, and is quite the formidable melee combatant. Dregoth is just all kinds of bad news. Nibenay is a master of deception and deciet, and Lalai-Puy has delusions of grandeur. Daskinor is just plain delusional (I usually set him up with an ability similar to that which Mage: The Ascention Marauders have - he can catch you up into his fantasy delusions, without you even realizing it, and warp what you think is reality around you with his chaotic madness). Oronis is very, very secretive, and his motives are usually not completely clear to outsiders. each has their own advantages/disadvantages. They all, especially the Dragons, consider new upstart dragons as a threat to their security and safetly, and generally take such things very seriously.
You see, just because game-mechanic wise, it may seem easier, it isn't. Plus, I don't generally go about telling my players the details as to how to become a Dragon. or an Avangion, or even what those are. They have to figure it out - no free lunches with my games.
PS: I don't think I'm painting black & white here, I just narrow the gray spectrum :D
But I concede, you win
hehe... I've only been working on Dragons and Avangions for a year plus or so. However, your arguements are fun, ieven if they seem redundant to me because I've just discussed them not more than two weeks ago. It keeps coming up, is all. and I am gonna stand behind my advanced being designs
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Congrats. Here, have a cookie.
Seriously, though, you should have a doctor take a look at that.
Well, went to the emergency room (finger was getting purple & blue), I cracked the bone at the tip of my left index finger. so, now it's in a splint, and will take 6 weeks to heal. On a good note, I got some great meds now that make me feel no pain....
Well, went to the emergency room (finger was getting purple & blue), I cracked the bone at the tip of my left index finger. so, now it's in a splint, and will take 6 weeks to heal. On a good note, I got some great meds now that make me feel no pain....
Don't let it get to your head. ;)
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Couldn't have said it better myself. I keep forgetting this part of the explanation when I present why I did the modifications to the requirements like I did. With my Dragons/Avangions, it is *possible* for a Wizard/Psion combo to start the metamorphosis at level 28 (11 levels of Psion, 17 levels of wizard) so, it's actually, following the conversion rules, a little harder to reach than previously possible in 2e, since the multiclassing rules are changed.
I disagree there. I think one of the coolest ideas given in 3e/3.5e is that characters can select varying classes and still end up fulfilling the requirements for a PrC.
WOW DarkHelm, that was quite an awsome post! And well YES it should be possible to begin the metamporphosis at 28th level, even thogh levels in the PrC Cerebremancer from the XPH, will also probably help speed things along.
Anyway your ideas of possible classes for the Sorceror-kings - I like those very much! And YES its the incredible thing with 3e that a character can select varying classes (and thus take different approaches to a goal) and still be able to reach that goal (the requrements for a PrC). That does make characters really unique. Anyway I always pictured Hamanu as a Psychic Warrior/Defiler and perhaps even a few Fighter levels.
All your words really make me hunger to see your version of the Dragon/Avangion. I hope your site will be up again sometime soon. Or perhaps it might be possible for you to eMail me your version? *looks hopefully*
to DarkhelmOriginally posted by Xular
WOW DarkHelm, that was quite an awsome post! And well YES it should be possible to begin the metamporphosis at 28th level, even thogh levels in the PrC Cerebremancer from the XPH, will also probably help speed things along.
Anyway your ideas of possible classes for the Sorceror-kings - I like those very much! And YES its the incredible thing with 3e that a character can select varying classes (and thus take different approaches to a goal) and still be able to reach that goal (the requrements for a PrC). That does make characters really unique. Anyway I always pictured Hamanu as a Psychic Warrior/Defiler and perhaps even a few Fighter levels.
All your words really make me hunger to see your version of the Dragon/Avangion. I hope your site will be up again sometime soon. Or perhaps it might be possible for you to eMail me your version? *looks hopefully*
I have a zipfile with MS Word .doc's that are the information that was on my website that I can e-mail, if desired. Thank Pennarin for having the presence of mind to do such a thing. The Avangions aren't quite completed, BTW, since I haven't gotten my "Avangion Magic" page up, and there's still a bit of cleaning up I desire to do on the whole thing for both.