I don't bother with applying a new ruleset iteration onto the flavor of the Blood War and the implications it would carry.
So you'd have the lesser fiends fighting to create battlegrounds where the greater fiends have advantages over their opponents. Hmm. I should give that some thought; might be some interesting tactics there which I could work into my campaign.
Any creature that can be hit only by a weapons of +X enchantment can, in turn, hit a target as if it were a weapon of +X enchantment.
By modifying this rule for 3.5, you could rule that balors and pit fiends could attack and damage pretty much anything on the battlefield. If you have two creatures of differing DR, say a DR 10/good fighting a DR 5/good, then the DR 10/good could drop to DR 5/good with the other opponent receiving no DR against its foe. That sounds like a lot more work, but it would explain how two bar-lgura could get into a fight without having to worry about DR.
Another option would be to have tanar'ri damaged by law aligned weapons and baatezu damaged by chaos aligned weapons. This would allow either side to do some damage to the other, while maintaining the relative flavor of the Blood War.
Originally posted by Kalidor187
Another option would be to have tanar'ri damaged by law aligned weapons and baatezu damaged by chaos aligned weapons. This would allow either side to do some damage to the other, while maintaining the relative flavor of the Blood War.
I considered this, but then realized that it still kind of screws yugoloths and gehreleths. Not much use in fielding a squad of yugoloth mercenaries in the Blood War if they're half as effective as tanar'ri troops would be, right?
Originally posted by Fimmtiu
I considered this, but then realized that it still kind of screws yugoloths and gehreleths. Not much use in fielding a squad of yugoloth mercenaries in the Blood War if they're half as effective as tanar'ri troops would be, right?
On the other hand, they themselves would be equally untouchable. Except by those big guys that just plow through damage reduction with brute force...
Of course, you can always introduce rules regarding special materials, saying that Baatorian green steel penetrates any tanar'ri DR, etc.
Originally posted by Kalidor187
By modifying this rule for 3.5, you could rule that balors and pit fiends could attack and damage pretty much anything on the battlefield. If you have two creatures of differing DR, say a DR 10/good fighting a DR 5/good, then the DR 10/good could drop to DR 5/good with the other opponent receiving no DR against its foe. That sounds like a lot more work, but it would explain how two bar-lgura could get into a fight without having to worry about DR.
Another option would be to have tanar'ri damaged by law aligned weapons and baatezu damaged by chaos aligned weapons. This would allow either side to do some damage to the other, while maintaining the relative flavor of the Blood War.
Well, I will have to see if I can dig up a sorce, but I believe anything that has DR of a Alingment based, inflicts damage as if his weapons were opposite.... Essentially, a DR 10/good and a DR 5/good would hit each other equally well, since both hit as EVIL, and neither has DR against Evil.
Same with the other side.. DR 10/Chaos is usually on a Lawful creature which hits as Lawful, thus 2 of them beating on each other do so without DR.
The levels of DR I use for demons is basically as follows:
Originally posted by Agonar
Well, I will have to see if I can dig up a sorce, but I believe anything that has DR of a Alingment based, inflicts damage as if his weapons were opposite.... Essentially, a DR 10/good and a DR 5/good would hit each other equally well, since both hit as EVIL, and neither has DR against Evil.
Same with the other side.. DR 10/Chaos is usually on a Lawful creature which hits as Lawful, thus 2 of them beating on each other do so without DR.
Actually, this is why they wouldn't hurt each other much at all. Two Outsiders with DR 10/Chaos both hit as lawful, and since their DR is only bypassed by chaotic attacks, their DRs work just fine against each other. It is now much harder for Tanar'ri to kill each other, as well as harder for them to kill Baatezu. One thing that I find very odd is that with the new DR rules, not even Solars are capable of bypassing the DR of Balors, Pit Fiends, Mariliths, or Cornugons (who for some strange reason are now quite a bit tougher than Gelugons
). On the other hand, even a Lemure is now capable of bypassing the DR of a Planetar, as long as it manages to hit its AC (granted, that only happens on a natural 20, but it still seems pretty screwed up to me).Originally posted by Agonar
Well, I will have to see if I can dig up a sorce, but I believe anything that has DR of a Alingment based, inflicts damage as if his weapons were opposite.... Essentially, a DR 10/good and a DR 5/good would hit each other equally well, since both hit as EVIL, and neither has DR against Evil.
Same with the other side.. DR 10/Chaos is usually on a Lawful creature which hits as Lawful, thus 2 of them beating on each other do so without DR.
Okay, I musta been Barmy when I did this. Or just tired.
In any case, a Balor and a Pit Fiend both have DR 15/good (Well, Good AND Cold iron or something but just the good part matters right now) Which means when they beat on eachother, they got a long fight ahead of them, because they hit as Evil and Chaotic/Lawful respectively, and have to deal with Good Dr.
Anyway, After examining other creatures with Damage Reduction, I have come to the conclusion, that Outsiders of a particular type should ignore the DRs of other outsiders of their particular type. (And in a sense this extends to other creatures)
The Basis of my consideration comes from Lycanthropes. 2 Werewolves should be able to tear each other apart, but unless they are both carrying silver, they have a DR to worry about.
So it only makes sense that when you have two creatures of the same type, or the same subtype, that they should be able to beat on each other freely.
In the above example, Balor is Outsider (Chaotic) and the Fiend is Outsider (Lawful), but since they are both Outsider (Evil), I saw they should ignore the DR of the other
Now, as a DM, pick and choose which creatures this works for, but in the case of the Blood War, and just how futile (Then again, who ever said that the Fiends were being Rational in trying to slaughter each other. Maybe their blind hatred is so bad that they risk their lives, even knowing that they are not that effective, which is why they recruit other creatures into their war [willingly or not])
However, I think there are going to be creatures in my games that ignore DR of creatures of a similar type/subtype
Originally posted by Freefall
Actually, this is why they wouldn't hurt each other much at all. Two Outsiders with DR 10/Chaos both hit as lawful, and since their DR is only bypassed by chaotic attacks, their DRs work just fine against each other. It is now much harder for Tanar'ri to kill each other, as well as harder for them to kill Baatezu. One thing that I find very odd is that with the new DR rules, not even Solars are capable of bypassing the DR of Balors, Pit Fiends, Mariliths, or Cornugons (who for some strange reason are now quite a bit tougher than Gelugons
Yeah, while in a lot of ways, I like the new DR system (Before, there were just some creatures you could not touch if you didn't happen to have a powerful enough creature - now you can at least get a few nicks in) There are just some instances when it does not make sense. But in most cases, with the reduction of the numbers, most times even if you cannot bypass DR, you can still dish out a little damage.
In old versions, Solars had 35/+4, Planetars had 30/+3
Balor had 30/+3, Dretch was 5/Silver
Any +1 weapon got through silver DR
Pit Fiend was 25/+3 (originally +2, which I believe was errata'd to be +3) and a Lemure was 5/Silver
So, from the case, Solars had the best shot out of all of them, bypassing every DR of those listed, while nothing else listed could touch it. Balors and Pit Fiends could womp on eachother to their hearts content and hit fully each time. Even Lemures and Dretches bypssed eachothers DR, as well as the upper Fiends of each type bypassing the /silver damage reduction.
Now
Solar 15 Epic AND Evil, Planetar 10/Evil - Both Strike as Good
Balor 15/Cold ron AND Good, Dretch 5/ Cold Iron OR Good - Both Strile as Evil and Chaotic
Pit Fiend 15/Good AND Silver, Lemure 5/Good OR Silver - Both Strike as Evil and Lawful.
Now, as it stands since the Angels' weapons are just normal weapons of their type (ie, not silver or cold iron) then they really suck in combat against all but the lower powered fiends (the ones with the /good OR something else)
So what has changed. Beforehand, Only the highest level fiends could touch a Planetar, now anything of an evil type can bypass their DR. Solars are still untouchable by any of the fiends, but since their weapons are not silver or cold iron, they can't dish it back out to the fiends. Balors and Pit Fiends find it tougher to slug it out against eachother, and now Lemures and Dretches find it equally hard to beat on eachother.
A Few concessions I would make.
Anything that needs Epic to be hit, bypasses every type of DR. Creatures ignore the DR of other creatures of the same type/subtype (Evil ignores other Evil, even if they oppose in the Lawful/Chaos department) Another easy option would be to have the Blood War fiends in general stock up on silvered/ cold iron weapons that have been aligned by captured slaves, or consider the weapons of angels to be both silver and cold iron. Or you could always just go back to the old version and apply a number to everything.
In some cases, I like the old version, but in most cases I like the new version - adds a bit more flavor. But there are a few examples of "what were they thinking"... fiends finding it hard to beat on eachother, Lcanthropes not bypassing eachothers DR, and stuff like that. In any case, it means that just having a +3 sword is not always sufficient to be able to do full potential damage to some of the creatures you are going to encounter. Makes you have to research what you think you might be fighting and plan accordingly
"In the ruins lives a devil of such power"
"Oh, a devil you say? well, we should try to get ahold of some silver weapons then . . you sure it's a devil? not a demon right?"
"Demon, devil, whats the difference?"
"It's a big difference, silver or cold iron, thats the difference"
But even with the greater diversity of DR types, the reduction in numbers means you are not as screwed as you have been in the past if you just didn't meet the DR requirements.
Originally posted by Agonar
Well, why bother? I mean, consider a solar vs. pit fiend fight. The solar isn't going to overcome the pit fiend's DR, but look at the damage he's dishing out each round! 3d6+3 with each of his 5 hits, AFTER damage reduction. I think that's where the new system's DR rules make a lot of sense... it's not such a big deal if you fail to overcome a foe's DR.
Originally posted by Fimmtiu
Well, why bother? I mean, consider a solar vs. pit fiend fight. The solar isn't going to overcome the pit fiend's DR, but look at the damage he's dishing out each round! 3d6+3 with each of his 5 hits, AFTER damage reduction. I think that's where the new system's DR rules make a lot of sense... it's not such a big deal if you fail to overcome a foe's DR.
Right, they lowered the number by which damage gets reduced so that in most cases, even if you cannot bypass DR, you can still do some damage. Unlike 3.0 where there were some monsters you just couldn't touch unless you had a magic weapon strong enough.
Went through an encounter in a game where we fought a Kyton (now a Chain Devil). 20/+2. Only one character had a +2 weapon (actually I think it might have been a +3, he was the Prince of the Realm, wielding his inheritence basically) The rest of the group either had no magic, or +1 weapons. it got to the point that we were trying to bull rush it to knock it down, trip it, use rope/whips to entangle it.. ANYTHING, but in the end, everyone except the guy with the magic sword was useless in the fight.
Now, Kyton has 5/Silver OR Good. If that same encounter had been run under 3.5, the entire party would have been a lot more effective against the devil.
Even taking the Pit Fiends 15. . . he has a CR 20, which means most groups are going to have a few +3-5's running through there, and even if they don't have the Good AND Silver weapons, they should be able to crank out at least 1-10 points a round after DR per character. Throw a 20th level Rogue with a plain dagger, and if he lands a Sneak Attack, he's doing 10d6+1d4, an average 37 points., 22 of which bypasses DR.
So yeah, like I said, in most cases I like the new DR system. However, in the cases of Demons and Devils, and other lower planar fiends (yugoloth, slaadi [I'll take mine with Ranch please], and the like) Well. . . . the Blood War has been raging for millenia right? Maybe it's lasted so long because they do so friggen little damage to each other because of their darned Damage Reduction - Or, just use my suggestion from before. If your type's match (or, in the case of types with many subtypes, if at least one of your subtypes match) then ignore DR. If you are an Outsider [Evil, Lawful] and you are fighting an Outsider [Evil, Chaotic], Then no one gets their DR in the fight because each share an [Evil] descriptor. As long as you have 1 subtype in common, all bets are off - But it was more the Werewolf against Werewolf idea that makes it seem ridiculous to have to blow through DR with each attack - Note, this keeps Angels from losing all DR benefits against Demons, because their subtypes don't match up. Of course, there are probably examples of this method that wouldn'd make much sense either. . . But I think it easy to decide where it should and should not work
However, since most Fiendish combat isn't going to be at the hands of the players, it would really bog down gametime anyway for the DM to play out combat between a Marilith and a Cornugon while the players sit watching. (Unless they are betting in Arena Combat or something, and then just turn over the combatants to the hands of the Players to play out the fight) Just by-play the combat - OR, do like my friend did when he pit an Adult Red Dragon against Borys, The Dragon of Tyr (In a Dark Sun campaign). Play out round by round combat the night before taking notes of what happens each round, and then describe it as a backdrop when the players are actually in a position to witness the fight. (Hmm, you were inside for rounds 2-6, so now in Round 7, the Marilith is pulling ahead in the fight. . . .) Maybe throw in the chance of the combatants noticing the players and coming to investigate, but since you have round by round results, you can easily ad-lib any chance encounters like this as well.
Two, I think it might make more sense than tinkering with DR if the 'loths sold/rented weapons and magic gear that bypassed the DR of their foes in the bloodwar. Caches of such gear become military objectives in their own right. This gives them more leverage in negotiating (not that the 'loths really need it but it is how the lower planes work).
Three, the idea that Baatorian Green Steel bypasses the DR of all Tanar'ri strikes me as a good one. The extra advanatage to the Baatorian forces could help explain how they are able to hold their own (in addition to their superior organization) when so massively outnumbered. Of course the Baatorians never have enough so they have to either go to the 'loths or...
Four, cold iron and silver weapons get cranked out on each side respectively for the low level grunts. I'm not sure but in the 1E MMII the bearded devils might have had cold iron glaives. This would let most of the rank and file tear into each other but leave them up a creek when a "major player" took the field. Manes and Lemmurs pretty much just take up space as "blockers" to help shape the feild of battle.
Finally this scheme makes it more desirable to get mortals (by hook or by crook) to come fight for the fiendish factions (unless you're a 'loth and don't want them taking away your contracts).
-Eric Gorman